Olympic Women's Gymnastics

[sue71, esq]

This is the first post on women's gymnastics? I'm surprised.

Anyhoo... 16 my arse!!!! There is NO WAY that the Chinese gymnasts are all 16. Maybe in... dog years or something. If they're 16, then I'm... ok we won't go there but seriously! No freaking way!

I'm not the biggest Bela Karolyi fan, but he says that forging passports & official documents is commonplace. Here are his comments (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns).

Look, I'm not saying by any means that the Chinese wouldn't have gotten the same or better scores than they did had they used all "legal" gymnasts. It's just disheartening to see what appears to be so blatant.

Also, (new topic), if I hear any more bemoaning of the death of the perfect 10, I may be ill. Yes, I get it. It was perfection. It was almost unattainable. But as athletes get stronger/faster/better, scoring must adjust with it. Figure skating just went through this. Now it's gymnastics' turn. Is the scoring perfect? I'm sure not. But it'll be analyzed and tweaked and eventually people will whine about this system not being fair and it too will change a long way down the road.

Ok, rants over. Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that even the Chinese newspaper is reporting that 4 of the gymnasts are underage.

[DukeUsul]

Yeah - even when you take into consideration that, to western eyes, Asian women tend to look younger and that that female gymnasts tend to retain more girlish qualities...... some on the Chinese team STILL look like they're no where near 16.

[sue71, esq]

So yeah, what the heck happened there?

I realize about the injuries, blah blah. But 2 of the 4 so badly going out of bounds, and near misses on the others?

Half-jokingly, is the floor taped too small and wasn't noticed because the Chinese are so tiny?

(I say half-jokingly because I have performed on a floor that was mis-taped. It's NOT fun. Then try to figure out whether or not to assess penalties. No, I was not a gymnast. ;))

[DukeUsul]

I was kind of half-watching as I made and cleaned up dinner.... but it seemed our young women did a good job shrugging off the early mistakes (big ones) and finished pretty strong.

[hc5duke]

I dont really know anything about gymnastics and olympic regulations in general, and I'm wondering what the issue is - why is there even an age limit? If a 12-year old swims faster than Michael Phelps, why not let him swim? If a 9-year old runs faster than Tyson Gay, why not?

[DevilAlumna]

I dont really know anything about gymnastics and olympic regulations in general, and I'm wondering what the issue is - why is there even an age limit? If a 12-year old swims faster than Michael Phelps, why not let him swim? If a 9-year old runs faster than Tyson Gay, why not?

You don't see anything wrong with putting a pre-teen through such grueling stress on his/her body, at a time when those bodies are still growing and forming? I say check the heads of their parents/guardians.

[hc5duke]

You don't see anything wrong with putting a pre-teen through such grueling stress on his/her body, at a time when those bodies are still growing and forming? I say check the heads of their parents/guardians.

The parents of the 16-year olds in the '08 Olympics, wouldn't they have put the kids through the same stress 4 years ago when they were training for this one? I understand what you're saying, I'm just wondering if this necessarily puts *more* pressure on these teen/preteens than were already on them.

[Bostondevil]

I dont really know anything about gymnastics and olympic regulations in general, and I'm wondering what the issue is - why is there even an age limit? If a 12-year old swims faster than Michael Phelps, why not let him swim? If a 9-year old runs faster than Tyson Gay, why not?

The age limit is there to prevent injuries. Gymnastics is one of the most injury prone sports, particularly for women. Putting all the stresses on your body at such a young age can mess you up for life. I also think the age limits are on a sport by sport basis so theoretically, if a 12 year old swimmer could beat Michael Phelps, he probably could compete. That's also why swimming doesn't need an age limit because that's just never going to happen.

[hc5duke]

The age limit is there to prevent injuries. Gymnastics is one of the most injury prone sports, particularly for women. Putting all the stresses on your body at such a young age can mess you up for life. I also think the age limits are on a sport by sport basis so theoretically, if a 12 year old swimmer could beat Michael Phelps, he probably could compete. That's also why swimming doesn't need an age limit because that's just never going to happen.

Gotcha. Thanks DevilAlumna and Bostondevil. I was just wondering if this is another case where there was an arbitrary age limit, but I can see now that it is not.

[sue71, esq]

One note about the scoring... I just read on MSNBC that the first time the new system was rolled out was DURING THE MEN'S PRELIMINARIES. Uh, I thought it had been out a while, so I take back what I said earlier. You DO NOT roll out something as important as, say, scoring, during the Olympics. Athletes & coaches should have a trial run of a few months to a year to acclimate to it, and to understand it. Shame on the International Gymnastics Federation or whatever they're called.

[ArkieDukie]

This is the first post on women's gymnastics? I'm surprised.

Anyhoo... 16 my arse!!!! There is NO WAY that the Chinese gymnasts are all 16. Maybe in... dog years or something. If they're 16, then I'm... ok we won't go there but seriously! No freaking way!

I'm not the biggest Bela Karolyi fan, but he says that forging passports & official documents is commonplace. Here are his comments (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns).

Look, I'm not saying by any means that the Chinese wouldn't have gotten the same or better scores than they did had they used all "legal" gymnasts. It's just disheartening to see what appears to be so blatant.

Also, (new topic), if I hear any more bemoaning of the death of the perfect 10, I may be ill. Yes, I get it. It was perfection. It was almost unattainable. But as athletes get stronger/faster/better, scoring must adjust with it. Figure skating just went through this. Now it's gymnastics' turn. Is the scoring perfect? I'm sure not. But it'll be analyzed and tweaked and eventually people will whine about this system not being fair and it too will change a long way down the road.

Ok, rants over. Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that even the Chinese newspaper is reporting that 4 of the gymnasts are underage.

ITA. I especially enjoyed the fact that the IOC examined their passports and they were all of legal competition age. Whatever! If the AP and the Chinese press can find documents saying that half the team is underage, why is it so difficult for the IOC to find/look at said documents? Are they turning a blind eye because China is the host country?

[ArkieDukie]

Half-jokingly, is the floor taped too small and wasn't noticed because the Chinese are so tiny?

(I say half-jokingly because I have performed on a floor that was mis-taped. It's NOT fun. Then try to figure out whether or not to assess penalties. No, I was not a gymnast. ;))

That's exactly what I thought! Also, did you catch the comment during uneven bars about the bars being too far apart for the little girl who looks about 12? Good thing I wasn't drinking anything - it would've come out my nose!

[blublood]

ITA. I especially enjoyed the fact that the IOC examined their passports and they were all of legal competition age. Whatever! If the AP and the Chinese press can find documents saying that half the team is underage, why is it so difficult for the IOC to find/look at said documents? Are they turning a blind eye because China is the host country?

Notice the way the IOC and FIG are each passing the buck when you read these articles. FIG (who is actually the responsible party, as I understand) is saying, "Well, we trust that the IOC reviewed the passports." and the IOC is saying, "It's up to the gymnastics federation to certify an athlete."

In short, nobody wants to stand up and grow a backbone and say that the Chinese federation is cheating.

Also, I'm going to make this prediction and I'm going to look like a genius in 2 days: there is absolutely no way the U.S. women are going to win a gold medal. Notice that even last night at prelims, there was some stirring the pot over Nastia's Liukin's bar starting score. I guarantee you that if the girls even get close to being in gold medal contention, oops! We forgot, that routine is really only worth 8.5, not 9.5. Sorry, USA! It makes me sick and again, it's a situation where no one will do anything about it even though everyone knows it's an abuse of the system.

[aimo]

One of the Chinese girls looks eight to me! No way they're all old enough to compete. But if anything is done about it, it won't happen until afterwards, and then it probably won't change anything. I read somewhere that one of the Chinese gymnasts from either Athens or Sydney or Atlanta has actually now admitted that she was too young to compete.

As for our girls, the biggest worry I have is the injury report. They just have to get/stay healthy. The slate is clean, and the Chinese have the advantage of going last in the finals, but I think our girls got rid of all the rust and nerves in the prelims and will perform their best. Yes, Nastia and Shawn were robbed in their beam scores, but they have a strong spirit and I think they'll come through. An advantage if the Chinese are so much younger, they don't deal with stress and mistakes as well. I've seen them fall apart before.

[blublood]

I don't know if any of the rest of you were up until midnight watching the men's team final, but wow, that was awesome! To lose your 2 top athletes, literally everybody with Olympic experience on your team, and still be able to come back and medal is a huge achievement. I really enjoyed watching Jonathan Horton especially - that kid was pumped. :)

[Lavabe]

I don't know if any of the rest of you were up until midnight watching the men's team final, but wow, that was awesome! To lose your 2 top athletes, literally everybody with Olympic experience on your team, and still be able to come back and medal is a huge achievement. I really enjoyed watching Jonathan Horton especially - that kid was pumped. :)

I posted a note in the LTE, it was followed by a response, and then devildeac pushed us to follow the mods' demand for separate threads for each sport. I didn't know that gymnastics interest warranted a separate thread.:o Can hardly wait for the DBR Olympic yachting/sailing thread.

They nearly gave it away on the pommel horse, but pulled it out with the last gymnast. High bar action was great. The women are up tonight.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[CameronBornAndBred]

I watched the men up until they finished with high bar. They had put on an amazing show until then, so I was not surprised to wake up and discover the results. I wish I had stayed awake for the finish. Great to see tehm medal with a team full of first time Olympians, everyone stepped up. I loved watching their attitude, they wanted to prove the world wrong and they did.

[weezie]

Can hardly wait for the DBR Olympic yachting/sailing thread.


If for no other reason than watching the grocery carts race the muck out of the venue.

[Turk]

We stayed up for it too - wonderful competition. Although Mrs. Turk wanted to throw rocks and baseballs at the TV screen for all the inane commentary... She thinks they hire the most annoying people they can find...

Here's what I want them to do: teach me something about the sport and make it more fun to watch... Saying "here's the really difficult part... he nailed it!" doesn't add much value - since we have eyeballs we can pretty much figure that out...

Lastly, I know we live in a 24/7 TV age, but I thought it odd how the camera crashed into every U.S. gymnasts' huddle... Did NBC really think they were going to get profound insights from these guys? I didn't recall any of that in the U.S. huddles during basketball game vs China... Perhaps they were worried about a loose F-bomb or several?

ahem... sorry about the geezer rant... carry on... Go USA!

[CameronBornAndBred]

I didn't recall any of that in the U.S. huddles during basketball game vs China... Perhaps they were worried about a loose F-bomb or several?


LOL..that image makes me laugh. One of the US female swimmers let loose a big F-Yeah right after she won, but luckily no mike was on her..haha. Not too hard to read lips on it though, my wife and I were laughing. Lord, can you imagine what a b-ball huddle must be like? K's probably the worst of 'em..lol.

[A-Tex Devil]

Is it wrong to call a 20 year old Brown Bear a choker?

Probably......

Still -- Bronze for men, Silver for women.. Hope those girls appreciate what they did! They looked distraught shaking hands with the Chinese team....

Edited to say -- meaning Silver Medal is an accomplishment. Hopefully they can get past the disappointment. Especially since they'll all be too old in 4 years

[DevilAlumna]

We stayed up for it too - wonderful competition. Although Mrs. Turk wanted to throw rocks and baseballs at the TV screen for all the inane commentary... She thinks they hire the most annoying people they can find...

Here's what I want them to do: teach me something about the sport and make it more fun to watch... Saying "here's the really difficult part... he nailed it!" doesn't add much value - since we have eyeballs we can pretty much figure that out...



Oh good, Mrs. Turk and I should get together and rail on these announcers together! I can't help but compare them to the olympic ice-skating announcers - who at least try and tell you the moves that the athletes are doing (I still couldn't pick a triple salchow out of a lineup, but I know it's hard, and when to look for it), and give you insight into technique and coaching.

These dolts covering gymnastics just repeat the obvious, over and over. I think they're nearly just on tape delay from 1996, 2000, and 2004. Agh.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't think so. Two events in a row and two huge mistakes, unfortunate..but also a choke. Still, congrats to the team.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Oh..and about the mistake remark, falling off the beam before you get on it, and stepping out a box that is 100 feet wide are big mistakes. But the announcers bug the snot out of me, especially the nasally sounding guy. He picks on everything. I'd like to see him hop across the beam end to end and not fall off.

[blublood]

I was just dying for Alicia Sacramone, especially since those were two of the types of things that you can do 1000 times, you can do them in your sleep, and then all of a sudden something goes wrong. Marta Karolyi was really no help either. She just kind of threw her hands up in the air like, "Well, you've ruined all our hopes, but go get some water, I guess." Awful all the way around.

[blublood]

Oh good, Mrs. Turk and I should get together and rail on these announcers together! I can't help but compare them to the olympic ice-skating announcers - who at least try and tell you the moves that the athletes are doing (I still couldn't pick a triple salchow out of a lineup, but I know it's hard, and when to look for it), and give you insight into technique and coaching.

These dolts covering gymnastics just repeat the obvious, over and over. I think they're nearly just on tape delay from 1996, 2000, and 2004. Agh.

Yeah, and also they're just really mean to the gymnasts in their commentary. I mean, anyone can see if Alicia Sacramone falls off the balance beam that the poop has hit the fan. We don't need them to go, "Oh, that was a major, major mistake! That's gonna hurt team USA's chances!" and then go on and on about how the chances have been hurt. Why do we think that mental error occurred? What effect might it have on a gymnast competing on the biggest stage in the world? Questions like these actually add what's known as "color" to the commentary.

[2535Miles]

Can hardly wait for the DBR Olympic yachting/sailing thread.


If for no other reason than watching the grocery carts race the muck out of the venue.

Apparently the water conditions (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/13/content_9249624.htm) might actually be worse than the air conditions.

[calltheobvious]

Yeah, and also they're just really mean to the gymnasts in their commentary. I mean, anyone can see if Alicia Sacramone falls off the balance beam that the poop has hit the fan. We don't need them to go, "Oh, that was a major, major mistake! That's gonna hurt team USA's chances!" and then go on and on about how the chances have been hurt. Why do we think that mental error occurred? What effect might it have on a gymnast competing on the biggest stage in the world? Questions like these actually add what's known as "color" to the commentary.

Agreed. For me the most interesting commentary of the night was when Bela posited a connection between Sacramone's falls and her age. I've been thinking about women's gymnastics and how it has the youngest "peak age" of any sport I'm aware of, and I think Bela's analysis explains part of it.

--It was also fun to watch Costas reach out and touch Bela's arm at the end of Karolyi's "The Chinese are using 13- and 14-year-olds" rant, as if to say, "Easy there, big fella, you're about one more derisive phrase away from the hosts sending us to black for the rest of the Olympics."

[2535Miles]

I was just dying for Alicia Sacramone, especially since those were two of the types of things that you can do 1000 times, you can do them in your sleep, and then all of a sudden something goes wrong. Marta Karolyi was really no help either. She just kind of threw her hands up in the air like, "Well, you've ruined all our hopes, but go get some water, I guess." Awful all the way around.
The demeanor of some of the girls was puzzling to me. Granted, I've never watched my dreams fade away into silver :eek: at the Olympics, but some of their post-routine hugs just didn't portray a close knit team. Even in defeat, the teams I played on always seemed to have more emotion and companionship. I'm still super proud of them though!

[Duke4Ever32]

--It was also fun to watch Costas reach out and touch Bela's arm at the end of Karolyi's "The Chinese are using 13- and 14-year-olds" rant, as if to say, "Easy there, big fella, you're about one more derisive phrase away from the hosts sending us to black for the rest of the Olympics."

This brings up a sore point for me. Does anyone here truly believe that all of the Chinese gymnasts were at least 16?? I don't buy it, and I think it's disgusting that the host country would cheat their way to a title. If they can feel good about that win I feel sorry for them. I know I couldn't. That win needs an asterisk beside it.

[Duke4Ever32]

I just posted this on the other gymnastics thread, but maybe it's more appropriate here:

Does anyone here truly believe that all of the Chinese gymnasts were at least 16?? I don't buy it, and I think it's disgusting that the host country would cheat their way to a title. If they can feel good about that win I feel sorry for them. I know I couldn't. That win needs an asterisk beside it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I just posted this on the other gymnastics thread, but maybe it's more appropriate here:

Does anyone here truly believe that all of the Chinese gymnasts were at least 16?? I don't buy it, and I think it's disgusting that the host country would cheat their way to a title. If they can feel good about that win I feel sorry for them. I know I couldn't. That win needs an asterisk beside it.

I was talking to my wife about this last nite. I think at least He is underage, and it is cheating, but only because that is the rules. What I really think is even if you are ten, and you can do the amzing things that they do, then power to you, go for it.

[dcarp23]

Probably the first true villains to have emerged in these olympics in my book. First, Bela's continuing accusations of cheating--everyone knows the accusations are out there, but at some point give it a rest and just provide some analysis. And then Martha not only slamming the officials but ripping her own gymnast--enough already:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813110636.ppigdozj&show_article=1

With all of the accusations of mistreatment coming from former gymnasts like Dominique Moceanau, and I admit not knowing all that much about gymnastics or this situation, it seems like a change at the top of U.S.A. gymnastics might be worth visiting.

[Duke4Ever32]

Probably the first true villains to have emerged in these olympics in my book. First, Bela's continuing accusations of cheating--everyone knows the accusations are out there, but at some point give it a rest and just provide some analysis. And then Martha not only slamming the officials but ripping her own gymnast--enough already:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813110636.ppigdozj&show_article=1

With all of the accusations of mistreatment coming from former gymnasts like Dominique Moceanau, and I admit not knowing all that much about gymnastics or this situation, it seems like a change at the top of U.S.A. gymnastics might be worth visiting.

What did Marta say that constitutes "ripping her own gymnast"?? In the article it says she describes Sacramone as being emotionally vulnerable, but I don't see that as a rip on Sacramone. It's more of an explanation as to why the situation with the delay would have affected Sacramone.

And - Bela did make the accusations, but he also provided analysis - especially regarding Sacramone's age and the correlation between that and her falls.

[Duke4Ever32]

I was talking to my wife about this last nite. I think at least He is underage, and it is cheating, but only because that is the rules. What I really think is even if you are ten, and you can do the amzing things that they do, then power to you, go for it.

I would agree with this if the rules regarding age were there for no valid reason. But as I understand it, the rules are there largely to protect the still-developing bodies of young gymnasts in a sport where there are frequent injuries. Since they exist to protect young gymnasts, it's that much more damning that China would flaunt them and put their gymnasts at risk for the sake of their own national pride. That's what I have a problem with. Not to mention that it is - after all - cheating. Everyone should be playing by the same rules.

[sue71, esq]

Bump.

Mods, can you maybe combine the 3 gymnastics threads?

[billybreen]

What did Marta say that constitutes "ripping her own gymnast"?? In the article it says she describes Sacramone as being emotionally vulnerable, but I don't see that as a rip on Sacramone.

I don't know about emotionally, but she seems physically tough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QA6s7p-zU8).

[dcarp23]

What did Marta say that constitutes "ripping her own gymnast"?? In the article it says she describes Sacramone as being emotionally vulnerable, but I don't see that as a rip on Sacramone. It's more of an explanation as to why the situation with the delay would have affected Sacramone.

Fair points, but we may agree to disagree. I was personally turned off by the following:

But while she was unhappy with stadium officials, she also questioned Sacramone's temperament, suggesting the gymnast was emotionally vulnerable.

"We developed her into a good competitor but originally she was not necessarily extremely easily focussed and aggressive," she said.


In a similar situation, for instance, Jason Williams missing the FT against Indiana in 2002, I don't see Coach K criticizing his players in the same way. I personally found Martha's comments to be inappropriate.

[hc5duke]

Probably the first true villains to have emerged in these olympics in my book. First, Bela's continuing accusations of cheating--everyone knows the accusations are out there, but at some point give it a rest and just provide some analysis. And then Martha not only slamming the officials but ripping her own gymnast--enough already:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080813110636.ppigdozj&show_article=1

With all of the accusations of mistreatment coming from former gymnasts like Dominique Moceanau, and I admit not knowing all that much about gymnastics or this situation, it seems like a change at the top of U.S.A. gymnastics might be worth visiting.

Another article critical of the Karolyis:
Karolyis’ sour grapes makes bad whine (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-karolyis081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


What kills the Karolyis isn’t that the Chinese would risk the health of their children by throwing them out here before their bones and muscles mature. It’s that the Americans won’t allow the Karolyis to do it, too.

This isn’t a morality play here. In truth, no matter Marta and Bela’s bleating, no one knows how old the Chinese girls were. This was a myopic focus of the Karolyis on someone outfoxing them.

...

The Karolyis couldn’t just lose with dignity. They couldn’t accept their gymnasts’ best. They look across the way and lust over a system that might allow them to trot out a 4-foot-6, 68-pounder who bends and flips with ease. Bela coached Nadia Comaneci to seven perfect 10s in the 1976 Olympics. She was 14.

[Lavabe]

It's tough keeping up with THREE gymnastics threads.;)

[CameronCrazy'11]

The Chinese woman's gymnast He is only 14, and her birthday appeared as Jan. 1, 1994 in numerous competitions and publications. Someone brought that to the attention of the IOC, so the Chinese issued her a passport stating her birthday was Jan. 1, 1992, making her old enough to compete. There is no way that He and a few of the other Chinese girls are really 16. Congratulations to the US women for winning the silver without cheating.

[dukie8]

I would agree with this if the rules regarding age were there for no valid reason. But as I understand it, the rules are there largely to protect the still-developing bodies of young gymnasts in a sport where there are frequent injuries. Since they exist to protect young gymnasts, it's that much more damning that China would flaunt them and put their gymnasts at risk for the sake of their own national pride. That's what I have a problem with. Not to mention that it is - after all - cheating. Everyone should be playing by the same rules.

they are also there because it is a lot easier to stick a landing when you only weigh 65 pounds. if it is so obvious that He is 14, then i don't understand how china does not get dq'ed. she sounds like the danny almonte of the olympics and he eventually paid the piper.

[sue71, esq]

she sounds like the danny almonte of the olympics and he eventually paid the piper.

Thank you! I couldn't remember his name, but I certainly remember that LLWS!

[Regenman]

I don't mind the sour grapes, perhaps we could have fielded a better team if the Karolyis' could bring in some 14 year olds. AS was a world champion on the floor exercise in 2005, that's 3 years ago. CM was an all around world champ back in 2005, also 3 years ago. That's an eternity in women's gymnastics. For men's its a strength event so folks can stick into their late 20s, definitely not the case for most women.

The Chinese had a great team last year and then put in 4 new gymnasts this year (this crop of "alleged" young ones). They obviously did it for a reason.

Playing against a stack decked always sucks. Winning is one way of sticking it back to the cheaters. Well this team didn't win, I don't mind the sour grapes.

[Mal]

Whether you let sub-16 participants compete or not is sort of secondary to me to the fact that it's even possible for sub-16's to be the best in the world at this endeavor in the first place. I said something similar in another thread, but any athletic event in which a preteen has distinct physical advantages over a larger, stronger, probably faster, mature 20-year-old is sort of a joke, in my mind. Can you imagine a Little Leaguer pitching to a Major Leaguer? I mean, I know women mature physically earlier than men on average, but c'mon.

Anyway, I saw five minutes last night and that was more than enough for me. Those Chinese girls weren't quite Little Miss Sunshine/Jon Benet, but it seems kind of creepy all the same.

I respect men's gymnastics far more, for the simple fact that the natural order of things is preserved. No way a prepubescent has the strength to do what those guys in their mid-'20's are doing on the rings, for instance.

[hughgs]

Whether you let sub-16 participants compete or not is sort of secondary to me to the fact that it's even possible for sub-16's to be the best in the world at this endeavor in the first place. I said something similar in another thread, but any athletic event in which a preteen has distinct physical advantages over a larger, stronger, probably faster, mature 20-year-old is sort of a joke, in my mind. Can you imagine a Little Leaguer pitching to a Major Leaguer? I mean, I know women mature physically earlier than men on average, but c'mon.

Anyway, I saw five minutes last night and that was more than enough for me. Those Chinese girls weren't quite Little Miss Sunshine/Jon Benet, but it seems kind of creepy all the same.

I respect men's gymnastics far more, for the simple fact that the natural order of things is preserved. No way a prepubescent has the strength to do what those guys in their mid-'20's are doing on the rings, for instance.

Well, that's why men's and women's gymnastics are different. The men's routines rely primarily on strength while the the women's routines depend primarily on finesse. Less mass allows more finesse, more age allows more strength. People need to simply choose which they prefer, finesse or strength, but each has it's place and neither really depends on "the natural order of things".

For the record I prefer the men's, though I hate the subjectivity of all the scoring.

[dukie8]

Well, that's why men's and women's gymnastics are different. The men's routines rely primarily on strength while the the women's routines depend primarily on finesse. Less mass allows more finesse, more age allows more strength. People need to simply choose which they prefer, finesse or strength, but each has it's place and neither really depends on "the natural order of things".

For the record I prefer the men's, though I hate the subjectivity of all the scoring.

anything with music, judges and sequins should not be a medal sport in the olympics. i can catch a broadway show or little miss sunshine pageant if i want to watch that kind of kiddie exploitation.

[A-Tex Devil]

... Or she'll do this to you:

http://www.wwtdd.com/post.phtml?pk=10651

(other items on site not always safe for work -- this is)

[Bostondevil]

ITA. I especially enjoyed the fact that the IOC examined their passports and they were all of legal competition age. Whatever! If the AP and the Chinese press can find documents saying that half the team is underage, why is it so difficult for the IOC to find/look at said documents? Are they turning a blind eye because China is the host country?

Uhm, yes. Well, not just that, for other political reasons as well. It's still cheating. It's no different than using steriods IMO. Rule are rules in Olympic sports and if/when proof comes out, even admissions by the athletes themselves years later, the medals should be forfeited.

It is also my opinion that a sport where competitors 'peak' at age 12-13 shouldn't be included in the Olympics. I've long argued that sports that are judged are still sports but I have come around to the opinion that unless gymnastics finds a way to make it possible for normal, healthy 18-20 year old women to 'peak', we really ought to stop holding the competitions. Yes, those flippy-dippy-dos that the tiny little bodies can pull off are amazing, but in my mind we've reached the point where it's no longer sport. It's a circus.

On the men's side, the Chinese all-around gold medalist - 28 years old. That's acceptable. If the judging on the women's side started rewarding strength moves more than flippy-dippies, things would change in a hurry.

One last idea on how to get rid of cheating at the Olympics. It won't ever happen, but, what if a single athlete in an event, I mean a SINGLE athlete, from any county, got that event banned from the next Olympics. If one guy who swims the 400 IM testing positive, for example, meant you don't swim the 400 IM AT ALL at the next Olympics? Well, I bet that would put a stop to almost all the cheating. Or perhaps less severe, it's not just the single athlete that gets banned but the whole nation. Imagine if Marion Jones's misstep meant that the US didn't get to send any 100 meter or 200 meter runners to the next Olympics. Think the USOC wouldn't make sure they sent only clean athletes? Yes, that's an even better idea.

[Duke4Ever32]

China's own state-run media reported that one of the gymnasts was 13 last November:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_gym_underage_chinese

This really makes me angry.

[mapei]

I totally agree with those that say this shouldn't even be an Olympic sport. And, actually, I'd go further and say that no judged event should be an Olympic sport. I feel like there are all these interesting international competitions going on, but all NBC wants to show me in prime time are gymnastics, diving, and beach volleyball over and over and over, always the same damn competitors - and if the Americans aren't one of the favorite teams in something, it doesn't even exist as far as they are concerned. Every four years I get sucked into this.

I did enjoy the basketball this morning, and I've enjoyed some non-beach volleyball, though not in prime time IIRC.

[hc5duke]

I totally agree with those that say this shouldn't even be an Olympic sport. And, actually, I'd go further and say that no judged event should be an Olympic sport.
Agreed - and I'd also add boxing to the list of "judged" events that shouldn't be in the Olympics. I tried to watch a match and the points didn't make sense at all. The only way I think boxing should be an event is if you fight until someone gets knocked out or gives up (which would be dangerous to the participants), or have some electrical sensors like they do in fencing (which would be funny).


I did enjoy the basketball this morning, and I've enjoyed some non-beach volleyball, though not in prime time IIRC.
Can someone please explain to me why there is regular volleyball and *beach* volleyball? I understand the surface is different, but did they really need two Olympic events?

[dukie8]

Agreed - and I'd also add boxing to the list of "judged" events that shouldn't be in the Olympics. I tried to watch a match and the points didn't make sense at all. The only way I think boxing should be an event is if you fight until someone gets knocked out or gives up (which would be dangerous to the participants), or have some electrical sensors like they do in fencing (which would be funny).


Can someone please explain to me why there is regular volleyball and *beach* volleyball? I understand the surface is different, but did they really need two Olympic events?

why is there diving and synchro diving? how annoying is the hip-hop music that gets piped in between each point in beach volleyball? anything with music, judges and/or sequins should be out.

[GopherBlue]

China's own state-run media reported that one of the gymnasts was 13 last November:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_gym_underage_chinese

This really makes me angry.

Clearly, there's only one way to settle this once and for all - cut off a leg and count the rings.

[Turk]

Can someone please explain to me why there is regular volleyball and *beach* volleyball? I understand the surface is different, but did they really need two Olympic events?

That's easy: Six-foot blondes. Bikinis. TV ratings. Duh.

Seriously, no, I don't think they need two different Olympic events. I'd say it's the same as having both fast-pitch and slow-pitch softball.

[billybreen]

why is there diving and synchro diving? how annoying is the hip-hop music that gets piped in between each point in beach volleyball? anything with music, judges and/or sequins should be out.

The piped music during beach volleyball games is totally bizarre. It's just undignified.

I'm fine with there being beach and indoor volleyball. The beach volleyball has been fun to watch, though my personal distaste for being sandy (having grown up on the beach and seen enough sand to last a lifetime) makes me vicariously uncomfortable for the players.

[TNTDevil]

The piped music during beach volleyball games is totally bizarre. It's just undignified.

I'm fine with there being beach and indoor volleyball. The beach volleyball has been fun to watch, though my personal distaste for being sandy (having grown up on the beach and seen enough sand to last a lifetime) makes me vicariously uncomfortable for the players.One thing that must go, regardless of beach/indoor-- "rally" scoring.

Just ain't right.

[hughgs]

One thing that must go, regardless of beach/indoor-- "rally" scoring.

Just ain't right.

The difference between beach and indoor volleyball is akin to the difference between freestyle and breast stroke in swimming. If you're going to make the argument that volleyball should only have one "event" then you should be espousing removal of the different stroke events in swimming. Just because there's a ball and a net doesn't make them the same sport.

Someone else made the analogy between slow- and fast-pitch softball. The problem is that the only difference between the two softball sports is the speed of the ball when it leaves the pitchers hand. If you want to remove 2/3 of the fielders in one of those sports then I would be more willing to agree with you.

As for rally scoring in volleyball, while I'll admit to hating it, it is designed to allow television coverage of the games. You can rail against it all you like but the data is clear that the game lengths are pretty consistent.

[dukie8]

The difference between beach and indoor volleyball is akin to the difference between freestyle and breast stroke in swimming. If you're going to make the argument that volleyball should only have one "event" then you should be espousing removal of the different stroke events in swimming. Just because there's a ball and a net doesn't make them the same sport.

Someone else made the analogy between slow- and fast-pitch softball. The problem is that the only difference between the two softball sports is the speed of the ball when it leaves the pitchers hand. If you want to remove 2/3 of the fielders in one of those sports then I would be more willing to agree with you.

As for rally scoring in volleyball, while I'll admit to hating it, it is designed to allow television coverage of the games. You can rail against it all you like but the data is clear that the game lengths are pretty consistent.

no. it would be like adding 3-on-3 basketball. we already have regular volleyball and beach volleyball is competely redundant with only very minor differences between it and the real thing. if you have any doubt, what sport do you think misty may and walsh played growing up, in high school, in college, professionally and in the 2000 olympics?

also, did anyone else notice that the stadium last night was at best half full? if this is such a great sport, then how come nobody in beijing cares enough to go see the equivalent of duke basketball in the 90s play? it pisses me off that nbc feels the need to ram this "sport" down america's throat for at least an hour in prime time every night when there are a ton of other real sports that people would like to see.

[TNTDevil]

The difference between beach and indoor volleyball is akin to the difference between freestyle and breast stroke in swimming. If you're going to make the argument that volleyball should only have one "event" then you should be espousing removal of the different stroke events in swimming. Just because there's a ball and a net doesn't make them the same sport.

Someone else made the analogy between slow- and fast-pitch softball. The problem is that the only difference between the two softball sports is the speed of the ball when it leaves the pitchers hand. If you want to remove 2/3 of the fielders in one of those sports then I would be more willing to agree with you.

As for rally scoring in volleyball, while I'll admit to hating it, it is designed to allow television coverage of the games. You can rail against it all you like but the data is clear that the game lengths are pretty consistent.Yo, mate, I'm not calling for removing any type of volleyball and, I'm not sure why you would think I am. :confused:

I like both types of volleyball, I just don't care for "rally" scoring (just "old-school" I guess) but, I understand why they have it.

[Turk]

I like both types of volleyball, I just don't care for "rally" scoring (just "old-school" I guess) but, I understand why they have it.

Same here; I get the need for rally scoring. But the rule change that really chops my onions is where serves that hit the net are still good if they make it across. Talk about throwing a joker in the deck... I'm guessing that "innovation" has got to be unique in any sport with a net across the middle, and I can't imagine the rationale behind it...

[TNTDevil]

~snip~

Anyhoo... 16 my arse!!!! There is NO WAY that the Chinese gymnasts are all 16. Maybe in... dog years or something. If they're 16, then I'm... ok we won't go there but seriously! No freaking way!

I'm not the biggest Bela Karolyi fan, but he says that forging passports & official documents is commonplace. Here are his comments (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns).

Look, I'm not saying by any means that the Chinese wouldn't have gotten the same or better scores than they did had they used all "legal" gymnasts. It's just disheartening to see what appears to be so blatant.
~snip~
EDIT: Forgot to mention that even the Chinese newspaper is reporting that 4 of the gymnasts are underage.Well, apparently the beans have spilled...

Scandal of the Ages: Documents Reveal Underage Chinese Gymnast (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html)

[hughgs]

Yo, mate, I'm not calling for removing any type of volleyball and, I'm not sure why you would think I am. :confused:

I like both types of volleyball, I just don't care for "rally" scoring (just "old-school" I guess) but, I understand why they have it.

Sorry I wasn't more explicit about my reply. I wasn't replying to you in particular, your post was just a convenient spot to post.

[hughgs]

no. it would be like adding 3-on-3 basketball. we already have regular volleyball and beach volleyball is competely redundant with only very minor differences between it and the real thing.

How are they redundant? The offense and defense schemes are completely different in the two sports. If you want a list I'll be glad to provide one, but since you think they're redundant I'll let you answer first. And I'll admit that the rules are pretty close. So there's a starting point for you.

[dukie8]

How are they redundant? The offense and defense schemes are completely different in the two sports. If you want a list I'll be glad to provide one, but since you think they're redundant I'll let you answer first. And I'll admit that the rules are pretty close. So there's a starting point for you.

the offense and defense schemes are completely different in 3-on-3 half court basketball and regular basketball. i'm not sure why you think that that is the litmus test for whether sports are different.

hopefully it goes the way of softball and baseball.

[hughgs]

the offense and defense schemes are completely different in 3-on-3 half court basketball and regular basketball. i'm not sure why you think that that is the litmus test for whether sports are different.

hopefully it goes the way of softball and baseball.

Thanks for avoiding the question. It makes your argument so convincing.

[dukie8]

Thanks for avoiding the question. It makes your argument so convincing.

if you don't see how beach volleyball is redundant when there already is regular volleyball, i really don't know what to tell you. please name a sport that is more similar to regular volleyball. your fully unsupported proclamation that the offensive and defensive schemes are very different is, well laughable. you may like watching it, but it makes no sense when there already is regular volleyball on the program. let me guess, you would be in favor of adding indoor soccer, beach tennis and slow pitch softball as each is so different than any other sport on the olympic program.

[mapei]

I think the made-for-TV "sport" called "beach volleyball" does indeed bring different strategies and skills into play. But I just don't want to watch it every. single. night, especially when the US team has no competition whatever. It's like watching David and Goliath except David doesn't have a slingshot.

As for the underage gymnast, I have a hard time caring. If the younger girl is better than her older opponents, let her compete. If all younger girls are better than older ones at this exhibition, then it makes the whole thing look ridiculous.

[throatybeard]

Oh..and about the mistake remark, falling off the beam before you get on it, and stepping out a box that is 100 feet wide are big mistakes. But the announcers bug the snot out of me, especially the nasally sounding guy. He picks on everything. I'd like to see him hop across the beam end to end and not fall off.

Billy Packer is doing gymnastics now?

_________________

I am generally extremely antipathetic towards "that sport is dumb" arguments. They're usually used by basketball fans to condescend towards other people. I also don't get along with Dukie8 very well.

That said, he's 1000% right about beach volleyball. I don't know if there's anything more marketing-driven and lame in either the summer or winter games than beach volleyball. (And that includes all the "Xtreme" sports in the winter games--the winter games are at least 4 times as compelling as the summer games). Don't get me wrong, I respect May/Walsh, but come on. The whole sport is an excuse to get pairs of attractive people into bathing suits on sand.

[dukie8]

I think the made-for-TV "sport" called "beach volleyball" does indeed bring different strategies and skills into play. But I just don't want to watch it every. single. night, especially when the US team has no competition whatever. It's like watching David and Goliath except David doesn't have a slingshot.

As for the underage gymnast, I have a hard time caring. If the younger girl is better than her older opponents, let her compete. If all younger girls are better than older ones at this exhibition, then it makes the whole thing look ridiculous.

it's possibly being added as a college sport:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3502546

it is supposed to be what indoor track is to outdoor track and what indoor soccer is to regular soccer.

mapei, did you catch any of the cycling? the men's race was great.

[throatybeard]

The piped music during beach volleyball games is totally bizarre. It's just undignified.

That how I feel bout the NBA, and Wake Forest.

[2535Miles]

That said, he's 1000% right about beach volleyball. I don't know if there's anything more marketing-driven and lame in either the summer or winter games than beach volleyball. (And that includes all the "Xtreme" sports in the winter games--the winter games are at least 4 times as compelling as the summer games). Don't get me wrong, I respect May/Walsh, but come on. The whole sport is an excuse to get pairs of attractive people into bathing suits on sand.
While I do agree that beach volleyball is marketing-driven, I think it's inaccurate to portray it as an excuse to get pairs of attractive people into bathing suits on sand. After living in San Diego and LA, I can assure you that there are plenty of unattractive pairs of beach volleyball players. :)

[dukie8]

anyone want to explain how nastia didn't get higher than a 9.5 for that perfect vault?

[billybreen]

This is the first night I've watched much of the gymnastics. It's weird. The judging sucks and is crazy frustrating.

[Cavlaw]

She got robbed on her second routine, as well.

[dukie8]

She got robbed on her second routine, as well.

when they showed the judges discussing johnson's vault, it looked like half the judges were asian. how many of them are chinese? it looks like the fix is in.

[cf-62]

It's pretty clear that the fix is in. Bela and the New York Times should have kept their mouths shut, I guess. FIG is pretty clearly punishing the American girls for the USA exposing FIG for the joke that it is.

[dukie8]

It's pretty clear that the fix is in. Bela and the New York Times should have kept their mouths shut, I guess. FIG is pretty clearly punishing the American girls for the USA exposing FIG for the joke that it is.

who was that woman who walked over to the judges and who told them to hook up nastia?

[throatybeard]

I don't know, but I'm a Nasty fan now.

ETA: Nasty won the Gold, and Shawn Johnson the silver. Awesome.

[billybreen]

I don't know, but I'm a Nasty fan now.

ETA: Nasty won the Gold, and Shawn Johnson the silver. Awesome.

Super, super cool.

[pfrduke]

when they showed the judges discussing johnson's vault, it looked like half the judges were asian. how many of them are chinese? it looks like the fix is in.

right, because Asian-looking must mean anti-American gymnasts... :rolleyes:

you seem to be upset by an awful lot about these Olympics. Perhaps you should find something else to do with your evenings?

[aimo]

I don't know, but I'm a Nasty fan now.

ETA: Nasty won the Gold, and Shawn Johnson the silver. Awesome.

I was so happy for both of them. Nastia has been working her butt off and, in my opinion, been shortchanged in the scoring. And Shawn Johnson is only 16. She could conceivably make another Olympics.

USA! USA! USA!

[mapei]

mapei, did you catch any of the cycling? the men's race was great.

Somehow I managed to miss all of it except the last 5k of the men's road race - Cancellara's bridge up to the front group was awesome.

One of my work colleagues trains with and used to live next door to Kristin Armstrong, so he's thrilled with her performance. I really wish I could have seen more!

[Lavabe]

Somehow I managed to miss all of it except the last 5k of the men's road race - Cancellara's bridge up to the front group was awesome.

One of my work colleagues trains with and used to live next door to Kristin Armstrong, so he's thrilled with her performance. I really wish I could have seen more!

When I watched, the Armstrong race was spliced beyond all recall. Besides the result, the best part was hearing Sherwen's voice.

[Bostondevil]

Just when I was truly ready to give up on women's gymnastic and personally begin advocating for their removal from Olympic competition - in reality, I'd go no further than posting that opinion here - they award the all-around gold medal to the best gymnast. Nastia probably should have received higher scores but she got enough to win. She deserved that win. AND she looked like a young woman doing it, she did not look like a little girl. Bravo.

I made the comment to my brother that even though the pixies can do some amazing stuff, if you boil it down to pure aesthetics, Nastia just looks better doing her stuff. That longer body (what, 5' 2" compared to 4' 9") and her elegant lines make even the simple moves beautiful. She does remind me of the 'taller' Russian gymnasts of years past, Svetlana Bouginskaya and Svetlana Khorkina, wonder why;)? Commentators always remarked on Svetlana Bouginskaya being so tall, she's 5' 3".

Shawn deserved the silver too.

The Asian women in red they kept showing last night is Nellie Kim, former Olympic gymnast who competed for the Soviet Union. She won the silver medal in the all-around competition in 1976 behind Nadia Commenici.

If anybody wants to correct my spelling of Russian/Romanian names, feel free.

[Turk]

The whining from the announcers last night reached new Olympic heights (sorry). We had to go with the mute button. It was either that or do an Elvis on the TV set. We settled on un-muting while the gymnast was actually performing (except vault - that was over too fast). Arrgh...

So what caught my eye was the difference in the body language between Nastia and Shawn while they were waiting their turns to perform. Nastia seemed so dour and joyless, while Shawn seems to project more of a "happy little kid" impression.

[billybreen]

So what caught my eye was the difference in the body language between Nastia and Shawn while they were waiting their turns to perform. Nastia seemed so dour and joyless, while Shawn seems to project more of a "happy little kid" impression.

I saw it differently. It felt like Nastia was in some crazy far away zone, fully locked in. Shawn seemed flighty and perhaps a little overwhelmed by the moment.

[aimo]

Nastia seemed so dour and joyless,

If you haven't read up on what Nastia's gone through in the last several years, you should. Bad ankle injury and slow recovery. Just last year, people were saying she was done, that she should give up on ever competing again for the all-around. Therefore, I take her "dour" look more as a look of serious concentration and meditation. If you watched her as she waited her turn, she often would close her eyes for several seconds, as if to block out the distractions and relax and concentrate on what she needed to do to win. Hard to do with a camera in your face. These girls can't even duck behind a teammate to pull out a wedgie without the camera catching it.

And Shawn Johnson was actually showing nerves. The first time I've ever seen that from her. She's usually cool and calm.

[Duke4Ever32]

As for the underage gymnast, I have a hard time caring. If the younger girl is better than her older opponents, let her compete. If all younger girls are better than older ones at this exhibition, then it makes the whole thing look ridiculous.

Even if the reason she is better than her older opponents is BECAUSE of her age??

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-gymnastsage081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[blublood]

I was really excited about that result too and I am glad that Whatshername Kim or whoever she was finally walked over to tell the judges to get their heads out of their butts. I guess they could just smell the headlines starting to brew for the following day: "Questions remain in all-around Chinese medal"; "Liukin finishes second amid scoring controversy." Or else, they remembered the near-riot that happened in Athens which was one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. :)

Anyway, congrats, Nastia! Huge, huge for USA gymnastics to not only have the all-around Olympic winner, but the runner-up as well. (although whatever the perky newspapers are saying, Shawn Johnson looked heartbroken to me. I just wanted to leap through the TV and give her a big hug)

[hughgs]

if you don't see how beach volleyball is redundant when there already is regular volleyball, i really don't know what to tell you.

It's easy. Tell me how they are redundant. Remember, my original question? Until you can list how they are redundant I don't see why I should believe you. And I've already agreed with you that the rules are similar, though I think there is enough of a difference (and I'll let you guess what that is and it's not the number of players) to change the complexion of the game.

So, I ask again, how are the two sports redundant? If it's so easy then you should have no problems.

[dukie8]

It's easy. Tell me how they are redundant. Remember, my original question? Until you can list how they are redundant I don't see why I should believe you. And I've already agreed with you that the rules are similar, though I think there is enough of a difference (and I'll let you guess what that is and it's not the number of players) to change the complexion of the game.

So, I ask again, how are the two sports redundant? If it's so easy then you should have no problems.

i could list out the rules of each that are identical (there are a lot) but i am not going to waste my time with that because you clearly are having a difficult time understanding the similarities between the 2. as i stated earlier, the 2 sports are analogous to indoor and outdoor soccer -- same sport with a few variations. if you think that indoor soccer should be added to the program because soccer is the most popular sport in the world and indoor soccer wouldn't be redundant, then knock yourself out with indoor soccer and beach volleyball.

[Bluedawg]

I saw it differently. It felt like Nastia was in some crazy far away zone, fully locked in. Shawn seemed flighty and perhaps a little overwhelmed by the moment.

people just prepare for events differently. Nothing should be read into it.

[Bluedawg]

Does anyone know who won the women's all around medals?

[2535Miles]

Does anyone know who won the women's all around medals?
Nastia Liukin - Gold
Shawn Johnson - Silver
Ying Yilin - Bronze

YOOT YOOT USA!

[ugadevil]

Did anyone see the interview Bob Costas had with Shawn Johnson and Nastia Lukin? Most of that was rather normal until...they bring in Bela Karolyi! What on earth is he saying!?! At one point, he appeared to ask Shawn Johnson a question and her response was a classic, "UHHHHHHH"...It was obvious that Shawn, like the rest of the world, had no idea what Bela had just said. Listening to him has been one of the most comical things of this Olympic games.

[darthur]

i could list out the rules of each that are identical (there are a lot) but i am not going to waste my time with that because you clearly are having a difficult time understanding the similarities between the 2. as i stated earlier, the 2 sports are analogous to indoor and outdoor soccer -- same sport with a few variations. if you think that indoor soccer should be added to the program because soccer is the most popular sport in the world and indoor soccer wouldn't be redundant, then knock yourself out with indoor soccer and beach volleyball.

I'm not an expert but isn't two person teams vs six person teams a pretty huge difference?

[pfrduke]

Did anyone see the interview Bob Costas had with Shawn Johnson and Nastia Lukin? Most of that was rather normal until...they bring in Bela Karolyi! What on earth is he saying!?! At one point, he appeared to ask Shawn Johnson a question and her response was a classic, "UHHHHHHH"...It was obvious that Shawn, like the rest of the world, had no idea what Bela had just said. Listening to him has been one of the most comical things of this Olympic games.

That said, the clip of Bela Karolyi cheering on Nastia Liukin during her floor routine was priceless.

He obviously didn't get the "no cheering in the press box" memo (and I say good for him).

[pfrduke]

i could list out the rules of each that are identical (there are a lot) but i am not going to waste my time with that because you clearly are having a difficult time understanding the similarities between the 2. as i stated earlier, the 2 sports are analogous to indoor and outdoor soccer -- same sport with a few variations. if you think that indoor soccer should be added to the program because soccer is the most popular sport in the world and indoor soccer wouldn't be redundant, then knock yourself out with indoor soccer and beach volleyball.

Right, because there are no other "redundant" sports at the Olympics...

Take rowing: they're rowing the same distance - it's just a different number of people (and some with coxswain, some without).

Or boxing - same sport, lots of different weight classes.

And don't get me started on badminton - singles, doubles, mixed doubles.

Or shooting - skeet, pistol, rifle. I mean, shooting's shooting, right?

And then diving - some events are same height, different board, and then there's multiple heights. But it's all ending up going straight (more or less) into the water.

I think everything above is more similar and more "redundant" than beach and indoor volleyball (with the possible exception of shooting). It's fine if you don't like beach volleyball (although when trampoline of all things is an Olympic sport, picking on beach volleyball seems odd). But saying it's redundant is really just making up an excuse to be against it (and a bad excuse at that).

[2535Miles]

Did anyone see the interview Bob Costas had with Shawn Johnson and Nastia Lukin? Most of that was rather normal until...they bring in Bela Karolyi! What on earth is he saying!?! At one point, he appeared to ask Shawn Johnson a question and her response was a classic, "UHHHHHHH"...It was obvious that Shawn, like the rest of the world, had no idea what Bela had just said. Listening to him has been one of the most comical things of this Olympic games.
It was great. I'm a big fan of his excitement but I would be terrified to conduct a post gold medal interview with him. I have foreign accent syndrome (FAS) after dealing with so many different countries at my job. I get to wake up at all hours of the night and join conference calls with companies from all over the world. I have the hardest time trying to understand soft-spoken programmers from Hong Kong, Sydney, Turkey, India, Russia, etc... The worst is when I have to call from the road. Ugh.

[ArkieDukie]

The bozo commentators went on and on about artistry over athleticism. That's not fair to Nastia. She nailed all her landings, Shawn didn't. Plain and simple. That being said, they were both phenomenal.

Did anyone else think the judges tried to keep things closer than they actually were?

[ArkieDukie]

I just finished watching the event final for women's vault. How can someone who totally missed the landing win bronze over someone who landed on her feet on both vaults? Granted, the degree of difficulty of the vault was higher, but a 9.0 for execution for landing on her knees? Unbelievable.

[DukieInKansas]

I just finished watching the event final for women's vault. How can someone who totally missed the landing win bronze over someone who landed on her feet on both vaults? Granted, the degree of difficulty of the vault was higher, but a 9.0 for execution for landing on her knees? Unbelievable.

Bela Karoly (sp?) agreed with you. He thought Sacramone was ripped off.

[hughgs]

i could list out the rules of each that are identical (there are a lot) but i am not going to waste my time with that because you clearly are having a difficult time understanding the similarities between the 2. as i stated earlier, the 2 sports are analogous to indoor and outdoor soccer -- same sport with a few variations. if you think that indoor soccer should be added to the program because soccer is the most popular sport in the world and indoor soccer wouldn't be redundant, then knock yourself out with indoor soccer and beach volleyball.

Once again, you've completely avoided the question. Nice way to argue in good faith.

I've already agreed that most of the rules are similar. But that doesn't make the sports redundant. So, I ask one last time how are the sports redundant.

And before you go to far on the rules, there is one major difference in the rules (having to do with touches) that completely changes the game played on the beach and indoors.

If you can't answer why they're redundant then I'm just going to assume that you only have a superficial knowledge of the volleyball that can be safely ignored in the future.

[blazindw]

I just finished watching the event final for women's vault. How can someone who totally missed the landing win bronze over someone who landed on her feet on both vaults? Granted, the degree of difficulty of the vault was higher, but a 9.0 for execution for landing on her knees? Unbelievable.

Simply atrocious. No way that she should have gotten the bronze. Bela was correct, that judging was a sham.

[dukie8]

Once again, you've completely avoided the question. Nice way to argue in good faith.

I've already agreed that most of the rules are similar. But that doesn't make the sports redundant. So, I ask one last time how are the sports redundant.

And before you go to far on the rules, there is one major difference in the rules (having to do with touches) that completely changes the game played on the beach and indoors.

If you can't answer why they're redundant then I'm just going to assume that you only have a superficial knowledge of the volleyball that can be safely ignored in the future.

you are just ignoring what i wrote and continue asking me the same thing. for about the 3rd time, there already is regular volleyball. beach volleyball is EXTREMELY similar to regular volleyball. here's what wiki has to say:

Beach volleyball evolved from indoor volleyball, and the two sports remain very similar: a team scores points by grounding the ball on the opponents' court, or when the opposing team commits a fault (error or illegal action); teams can contact the ball no more than three times before the ball crosses the net; and consecutive contacts must be made by different players [emphasis added].

in my book, if wiki describes the 2 sports as "very similar," they are very similar. you apparently disagree.

i asked you to name a sport that is more similar and you ignored that too.

so now that we have established that regular volleyball and beach volleyball are extremely similar, we can go to the definition of redundant. cambridge dictionary defines it as:

unnecessary because it is more than is needed.

since regular volleyball already was in the olympics, the very similar beach volleyball is unnecessary because it is more than is needed and therefore is redundant. see, this wasn't that painful.

as i stated earlier, it would be like adding indoor soccer to the olympic program and that would be redundant since regular soccer already is played in the olympics. would you do everyone a favor and give this a rest?

[Lavabe]

Did anyone see the interview Bob Costas had with Shawn Johnson and Nastia Lukin? Most of that was rather normal until...they bring in Bela Karolyi! What on earth is he saying!?! At one point, he appeared to ask Shawn Johnson a question and her response was a classic, "UHHHHHHH"...It was obvious that Shawn, like the rest of the world, had no idea what Bela had just said. Listening to him has been one of the most comical things of this Olympic games.

Dickie V is to college hoops coverage. Pure and simple.

Fortunately, he didn't go into a rant about Derek Jeter.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[aimo]

I just finished watching the event final for women's vault. How can someone who totally missed the landing win bronze over someone who landed on her feet on both vaults? Granted, the degree of difficulty of the vault was higher, but a 9.0 for execution for landing on her knees? Unbelievable.

That was a crock. They took off for the knee landing, but not for the mistake that caused the bad landing. She should have had another half-point at least deducted which would have given Sacramone the bronze. I was holding my breath after the same gymnast fell on her floor routine, halfway convinced they were going to give her another 15.5 anyway.

The judging has been totally screwed up for women's gymnastics. I don't know if it's the new system or what, but several times they've looked like they had no clue.

[ArkieDukie]

Dickie V is to college hoops coverage. Pure and simple.

Fortunately, he didn't go into a rant about Derek Jeter.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Similarly, I think Bela is becoming a bit of a caricature of himself.

[ArkieDukie]

That was a crock. They took off for the knee landing, but not for the mistake that caused the bad landing. She should have had another half-point at least deducted which would have given Sacramone the bronze. I was holding my breath after the same gymnast fell on her floor routine, halfway convinced they were going to give her another 15.5 anyway.

The judging has been totally screwed up for women's gymnastics. I don't know if it's the new system or what, but several times they've looked like they had no clue.

I just read that they found a way to give the gold in uneven bars to one of the underage Chinese gymnasts (He, I believe), even though she and Nastia were tied. They came up with some convoluted tie-breaker that put her ahead despite having the exact same score. This could very well end up being another of those scandals along the lines of the big figure skating scandal in the Salt Lake City olympics.

[pfrduke]

you are just ignoring what i wrote and continue asking me the same thing. for about the 3rd time, there already is regular volleyball. beach volleyball is EXTREMELY similar to regular volleyball. here's what wiki has to say:

Beach volleyball evolved from indoor volleyball, and the two sports remain very similar: a team scores points by grounding the ball on the opponents' court, or when the opposing team commits a fault (error or illegal action); teams can contact the ball no more than three times before the ball crosses the net; and consecutive contacts must be made by different players [emphasis added].

in my book, if wiki describes the 2 sports as "very similar," they are very similar. you apparently disagree.

i asked you to name a sport that is more similar and you ignored that too.

so now that we have established that regular volleyball and beach volleyball are extremely similar, we can go to the definition of redundant. cambridge dictionary defines it as:

unnecessary because it is more than is needed.

since regular volleyball already was in the olympics, the very similar beach volleyball is unnecessary because it is more than is needed and therefore is redundant. see, this wasn't that painful.

as i stated earlier, it would be like adding indoor soccer to the olympic program and that would be redundant since regular soccer already is played in the olympics. would you do everyone a favor and give this a rest?

First, wiki is wrong about one of the key rules differences between beach and indoor when it says teams can contact the ball no more than three times. In indoor volleyball, contact on a block does not count against the defensive team, so if the blockers make a deflection and another teammate gets an up, they still have two hits left. Thus, the team can contact the ball four times, so long as the first contact is on a block.

Second, I would say (at the very least) rowing and diving have more redundancy than the two disciplines of volleyball. Rowing involves teams going the exact same distance, and the only change is the number of people in the boat (and, for the fours, whether they're sculling or not). They give out at least 14 golds in rowing - there are 4 total between indoor and beach volleyball. Ditto diving. First, there's the obvious similarity between single and synchronized diving - the only difference being the number of people (and a synch score for the latter). Second, the events from the various board heights are all essentially the same - just jumping from a different height or board type. Diving has 8 golds - twice the amount of volleyball.

Third, "redundancy" has, to my knowledge, never been a factor in selecting Olympic sports.

Look, many categories of sports have multiple disciplines or distances (swimming, track, cycling, shooting), or have teams that change sizes (tennis, badminton, rowing). Volleyball is simply one of those - it's a category with two disciplines: indoor and beach.

[blublood]

Yes, I am resurrecting this thread once again. :) I didn't actually see that vault from Chung Fei until last night - what a joke!!! Not that she made a mistake, but that they apparently didn't deduct anything for it. Anyone else, that would have knocked them completely out of contention - it's like falling off the balance beam - and yet somehow she ends up with a bronze medal. Ludicrous. I think it's impossible to deny at this point that the Chinese gymnasts are getting some sweet deals on the judging. There is not another gymnastics team that I know on that floor that has consistently made mistakes and yet not been penalized.

Also, unrelatedly, did anyone see the random footage of women's pole vault? Whoever the American girl's coach is needs to be fired immediately. What a jerk! Your athlete wins a silver medal and there's no "Way to go!" or "Atta girl!"? Just constant scathing criticism? I wanted to jump through the TV and be like, "Girl, he ain't no good for you, dump him before he ruins your career!"

[DukieInKansas]

Also, unrelatedly, did anyone see the random footage of women's pole vault? Whoever the American girl's coach is needs to be fired immediately. What a jack*^*! Your athlete wins a silver medal and there's no "Way to go!" or "Atta girl!"? Just constant scathing criticism? I wanted to jump through the TV and be like, "Girl, he ain't no good for you, dump him before he ruins your career!"


I thought the same thing. Did I hear correctly that she has only been vaulting for 4 years? If so, I think that it is amazing she won a silver. It took an Olympic record to beat her and then the gold medal women tried again so she could set the world record.

[allenmurray]

here's what wiki has to say:

in my book, if wiki describes the 2 sports as "very similar," they are very similar.


Here in Bible-Belt land there is a common bumper sticker that says:
God Said It, I Believe It, That Settles It

Perhaps we could get one for you that says:
Wiki Said It, I Believe it, That Settles it

Quoting Wiki as an authoritative source on anything is dangerous.

[Duke4Ever32]

Yes, I am resurrecting this thread once again. :) I didn't actually see that vault from Chung Fei until last night - what a joke!!! Not that she made a mistake, but that they apparently didn't deduct anything for it. Anyone else, that would have knocked them completely out of contention - it's like falling off the balance beam - and yet somehow she ends up with a bronze medal. Ludicrous. I think it's impossible to deny at this point that the Chinese gymnasts are getting some sweet deals on the judging. There is not another gymnastics team that I know on that floor that has consistently made mistakes and yet not been penalized.

I'm not accepting any of the Chinese women's gymnastics accomplishments as valid. They're competing with ineligible gymnasts, and the judges are showing them outrageous favoritism. I won't be surprised at some point in the future if they have to forfeit all of their medals due to competing with underage gymnasts.

And if you can explain the merits of tie-breaking procedure used in the uneven bars, I'm all ears. From what I understand, it makes even less sense than breaking the tie by asking each girl what her favorite ice cream is.

[DukieInKansas]

If I understood them correctly last night, when they were explaining the tie break situation, if this had been the world championships, they would have shared the gold. They don't use the tie break in the worlds. I think they should have shared the gold instead of breaking the tie - 2 Golds and 1 Bronze should have been awarded.

[billybreen]

Spoiler alert: Shawn Johnson won her gold finally, on the balance beam.

[Duke4Ever32]

[Redacted. - Please don't quote spoilers, they show up in the quote boxes; also, if you're going to comment on events that haven't been televised yet, please use spoiler colors]

[Indoor66]

I missed this performance on thehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO_BnsrWMnI balance beam:

[Indoor66]

I missed this balance beam performace:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO_BnsrWMnI

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I would marry her today. and if I was married, I'd divorce my wife and marry her today.

[hc5duke]

I would marry her today. and if I was married, I'd divorce my wife and marry her today.

If she SAYS she's 16, and she LOOKS 16... wait I don't think Chris Rock covered this

[pfrduke]

Hey, it's legal in Kansas (with consent of parents/guardian/judge). Ditto Iowa.*


*I do not share FBB's take re marrying Shawn Johnson. Merely pointing out that it could legally occur.

[dukeballer2294]

If she SAYS she's 16, and she LOOKS 16... wait I don't think Chris Rock covered this

Haha I love that song, but I dunno bout marry bout I would definatley go out with her. Although it would be a little intimidating that my girl friend is stronger and more muscular than me, but I will get over it.

[eddiehaskell]

THIS girl is the one to marry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78uxVl2K_U&NR=1

Alicia Sacramone. Wow. Check out how cute she looks at 1:31-1:33. She didn't look as good competing, but relaxed with her hair done, she is smokin'. She's also 20 yrs old and 'filled out' unlike most gymnast. ;)

But yeah, there are about 4 or 5 cute girls on the gymnastics team....Nastia, Shawn, Alicia and a few others (forgot their names).

[wilko]

THIS girl is the one to marry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78uxVl2K_U&NR=1

Alicia Sacramone. Wow. Check out how cute she looks at 1:31-1:33. She didn't look as good competing, but relaxed with her hair done, she is smokin'. She's also 20 yrs old and 'filled out' unlike most gymnast. ;)

This girlie is smokin! After her disappointing show on the bean and floor routine. I was able to scrounge around and find an email for her.

Sent her a rah-rah note from a proud fellow American and tried to give her a pep talk. After the way the media vultures stayed on her begging for waterworks, it was kinda pathetic and my heart went out to her.

SHE DID send a short repy of thanks for the kind words.
I didnt expect that, but it was a nice touch all the same from her.

[Inonehand]

THIS girl is the one to marry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78uxVl2K_U&NR=1

Alicia Sacramone. Wow. Check out how cute she looks at 1:31-1:33. She didn't look as good competing, but relaxed with her hair done, she is smokin'. She's also 20 yrs old and 'filled out' unlike most gymnast. ;)

But yeah, there are about 4 or 5 cute girls on the gymnastics team....Nastia, Shawn, Alicia and a few others (forgot their names).

Seems like Justin Timberlake has a better shot at her than any of us...

[Carlos]

I think our president is more of a beach volleyball fan:

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/president-bush-olympics.jpg

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/president-bush-olympics-2.jpg

[aimo]

I am still floored by the elevated scores of the Chinese "women" gymnasts. Cheng had way too many balance checks on the beam to earn a 15.9. THANK GOODNESS Shawn and Nastia took gold and silver.

I know there is a new scoring system, but still, I swear it seems like the judges were threatened or paid off in some instances when it came to the Chinese performances. And even the underscoring of the American gymnasts. And I NEVER make accusations like that. I am not a spoiled sport, but it seems there is no other explanation.

In spite of this, Team USA won 8 medals, 2 gold 5 silver and a bronze. Nastia tied Mary Lou Retton and Shannon Miller for 5 medals won. GO USA!!!

[RainingThrees]

thats hilarious. I hope they both win gold.

[Rich]

But just don't ger her mad! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWDSRjyiuWI

[Bostondevil]

I think Alicia Sacramone is the daughter of my son's orthodontist. I saw the name and thought, hmm, I should ask Dr. Sacramone at the next appointment if they are related. Then the flashed a picture of her with her family. It wasn't up long enough for me to be sure. I'll check and get back to you.

[billybreen]

Winchester is right next to my home town. Nice to have a local girl in the Olympics.

[Bluedawg]

The bozo commentators went on and on about artistry over athleticism. That's not fair to Nastia. She nailed all her landings, Shawn didn't. Plain and simple. That being said, they were both phenomenal.

Did anyone else think the judges tried to keep things closer than they actually were?

From what I understand the new scoring system focuses more on athleticism. Some of the "retired" Gymnasts are having a hard time with the focus moving away from artistry. But still the scoring system is not perfect...but can it be. the home country usually gets favored.

[Bluedawg]

I would marry her today. and if I was married, I'd divorce my wife and marry her today.

She is 16

[Bluedawg]

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/president-bush-olympics.jpg

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/president-bush-olympics-2.jpg

the perks of being President

[billybreen]

She is 16

Amen. Creepy! :eek:

[hc5duke]

Amen. Creepy! :eek:

That's what I love about these gymnast girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age. Alright alright alright...

[billybreen]

That's what I love about these gymnast girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age. Alright alright alright...

Brilliant!

[Scorp4me]

I'm just glad basketball message boards don't decide which games are played at the olympics, how the games are handled, and what age participants are allowed to compete. They may be flawed, but the ones involved know a little more than we do in most cases.

[ugadevil]

I'm just glad basketball message boards don't decide which games are played at the olympics, how the games are handled, and what age participants are allowed to compete. They may be flawed, but the ones involved know a little more than we do in most cases.

The basketball board may not be able to make good decisions, but the Off-Topic board sure would know what to do!

[waveletanalysis]

If you don't know the A score of each move, or don't know what combination can boost the score, it doesn't make sense to complain about the unfairness. Flying high doesn't mean more difficult. Nastia opened her legs in the dismount from the uneven bar, looks quite ugly. Tied in score was not bad for her.

I was lol. watching Bela Karolyi begging why Alicia Sacramone didn't got the bronze. "Why! Why!", he said. He seemed very sincere and innocent. After all, it's a bronze. Grow up!

Don't get influenced by the commentator. Karolyi admitted the scores were fair, of course, until Alicia Sacramone's routine.

[blublood]

The basketball board may not be able to make good decisions, but the Off-Topic board sure would know what to do!

We always do, brother. :D ;)

[hc5duke]

I've stopped caring about the age controversy, and it seems most people have made up their minds that some of the girls were underage. But here's some pretty concrete proof that at least one girl (He Ke Xin) is 14:

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/hack-olympics.html

Basically, cached version of a deleted Excel spreadsheet on a Chinese government server states her birthday as 1994.1.1 (#618 here (http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9f65cb4a8c8507ed4fece763105392230e54f7227e8a90 5368d4e41dce204c413037bfa673794e5392d8242140b20a17 a2a17d247c1e68e6dd999f4aaaf1cc693bcd7a742613913161 c468d8dc4755d650e44d98a40e91b8e74391b9d2a2dc5f58cc&p=882a97128c805ffc57ecd3214f&user=baidu) and #1040 here (http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9d78d513d9d431dc4f9ce3690c66c0166d43f1682ba1d2 020ed68448e267504a4172a4fb792d4a4295876b6672b25419 afb52172404262eadb8e9f4aaaeecf6c388850652c01d21a4c 8458b2930064dc60c70fe9ad1be3a7b863d5ffc5d3a81e0d8b&p=8b2a941786cc43f113fecb3146&user=baidu))

[hughgs]

you are just ignoring what i wrote and continue asking me the same thing. for about the 3rd time, there already is regular volleyball. beach volleyball is EXTREMELY similar to regular volleyball. here's what wiki has to say:

Beach volleyball evolved from indoor volleyball, and the two sports remain very similar: a team scores points by grounding the ball on the opponents' court, or when the opposing team commits a fault (error or illegal action); teams can contact the ball no more than three times before the ball crosses the net; and consecutive contacts must be made by different players [emphasis added].

as i stated earlier, it would be like adding indoor soccer to the olympic program and that would be redundant since regular soccer already is played in the olympics. would you do everyone a favor and give this a rest?

You're right I am ignoring what you are saying and repeating the question because you haven't (until now) actually answered the question of why the two sports are redundant. It's not like I drew the question out of thin air. You made the assertion and I simply asked you for an explanation.

So, you're criteria is that since the two sports are derived from each other, then they must be redundant. That can be true up to a point, but I think in this case the differences between the sports make them very different. You've cited the most basic rules of the sport to say that they are the same (one of which is incorrect as pointed out previously). You can make the same argument about basketball and team handball. Points are scored by putting the ball into a goal. Players are required to dribble or pass the ball to advance. Defensive players have a right to their part of the court (offensive players can't simply run over defenders). Should we then say that basketball and team handball are redundant? Of course not.

Here are a couple of differences that (to me) make the sports different. First, as prfduke pointed out, the number of touches allowed are different. Being able to ignore touches by the block completely changes how the offense can be run. Second, the fact that beach volleyball is played outside forces the players to change tactics depending on the side they are on. Everything from the types and placements of the serves to the passing and setting and even the types of spikes used change depending on whether the wind is in your face or at your back. The side of the net one starts on is so important that most players would rather choose their starting side than serve/receive. Indoors the Duke team always starts games one on the same side. Third, there are no substitutions allowed in beach volleyball. Substitutions are allowed in 3, 4, and 6 man volleyball, but if you lose a player to an injury on the beach you're done. I've played with a sprained ankle on the beach to avoid losing. Same injuries on the hardwood just resulted in my sitting and cheering.

As to whether there other sports that are more closely related, I'm not sure how that information makes indoor and beach volleyball more or less redundant. Volleyball isn't like the decathlon and made of a number of separate events. They are two events and their relationship to each other exists independently of the relationship between any two other sports.

Since you've finally answered the question, I'm done. I'll let others judge whether the two sports are redundant. I apologize if you thought the thread was too long but if you're not going to answer a question that is directly related to an assertion you make on the topic of volleyball then maybe you should rethink making such an assertion. The length of this sub-thread is because you skirted the question in your previous posts. As to whether I'm doing "everyone a favor", when you become a moderator on this board then I will take that statement as something that should be heeded but until then I think I will continue to post as I see fit (within the rules of the board). Thanks for protecting everyone else, but I would appreciate it if you would leave those types of comments out of you replies and simply report my posts if you think I've crossed the line.

[pfrduke]

Here are a couple of differences that (to me) make the sports different. First, as pfrduke pointed out, the number of touches allowed are different. Being able to ignore touches by the block completely changes how the offense can be run.

After all this discussion about the relative difference/similarity of beach and indoor volleyball, I noted with great amusement that the gold medal clinching play last night came about because of the touch rule. Had Kerri Walsh not gotten a partial block, she likely would have set the ball at the net, rather than spike it over for the win.

[Bostondevil]

I've stopped caring about the age controversy, and it seems most people have made up their minds that some of the girls were underage. But here's some pretty concrete proof that at least one girl (He Ke Xin) is 14:



I haven't, stopped caring about the age controversy I mean, because to me it's just as much cheating as steroids are. If it's against the rules, it's against the rules. They took away Spearman's bronze for stepping on the line in the 200m. Why? Because it's against the rules. He (last name, not pronoun) is the gymnast who won the gold medal in the uneven parallel bars. That medal should be forfeit. So should the team gold.

I am however very unhappy to hear that Americans have been sending hate emails to the Australian judge in the uneven parallel bars event.

[bjornolf]

so much to comment on for me.

First off, I don't get how someone can land on their hands and knees, not to mention have at least two other MAJOR problems with their vault, and still get a medal. That is INSANE to me. :eek:

As for the "16" year old gymnasts from China... the reason they are all so young is that their bodies are used up by the time they're "legal". The Chinese coaches travel around schools and "test" kids at the earliest ages (1st-3rd grades). If you show aptitude, they transfer you to a "special" school for your sport, sometimes hundreds of miles from home (the 20 or so year old girl from China playing table tennis for us talked about how she was "recruited" and was a "professional" by age 11). Academics become secondary to the sport. So, that "16" year old gymnast has been practicing and competing 8-12 hours a day for about 10 years. Compare that to Shawn Johnson, who was talking about the punishment her body has been taking. She led a pretty normal life outside gymnastics with school and all until a few years ago when she started preparing for the worlds and the olympics. The Chinese girls haven't had "normal" lives since they were 4. There probably aren't TOO many young people who can take that much punishment to their bodies for that amount of time. The "older" chinese gymnasts are probably mostly broken by now.

I have a question about gymnastics in general...am I just remembering wrong here? Before I start this, my wife, who is admittedly only a year older than me, agreed completely with me. She was pointing it out as I was, so I don't think I'm TOTALLY off the mark here. I was pretty young, but I remember back in the days of the Mary Lou's and even into the 90's, you had to STICK all your landings and nail all your routines. I remember seeing landings I thought were good or the tiniest of wobbles on the beam and hearing the announcers talk about how huge a fault it was and how it would keep a competitor off the medal stand. Now they just gloss over it unless it's GLARING. Are the gymnasts just not as good? Do the judges just not care about that anymore? Am I just not remembering correctly? I remember thinking all the medalists back then looking just about perfect. Most of the gold medalists now wouldn't have gotten the bronze back then. Again, am I remembering wrong?

Also, people were talking about Nastia looking distant and dour. I thought it was hilarious that a couple times they showed her standing a few feet away from her dad while waiting. Almost every time, they were standing in IDENTICAL poses with IDENTICAL expressions on their faces. Like father, like daughter I guess.

As for the tie-breaker, which is ridiculous in my mind...might as well have a coin flip. Here's how it works. Two gymnasts tie with these scores:

9.0 9.1
9.0 9.0
9.0 9.0
8.9 9.3
9.1 8.7
8.8 8.8

We throw out the highest and lowest for each, leaving us with:

9.0 9.1
9.0 9.0
9.0 9.0
8.9 8.8

A tie. The tie-breaker is to throw out the NEXT lowest score, leaving us with:

9.0 9.1
9.0 9.0
9.0 9.0

The one with the 9.1 wins. Again, dumbest tie-breaker EVER in my mind. TOTALLY arbitrary with NO accounting the skills of the contestants AT ALL. I think the only fair tie-breaker would be for those two to go again and the winner gets the gold, loser gets the silver. Or let them go at it grecco-roman style on the floor exercise matt. I've got Nastia in that one. More weight and reach. Talk about ratings!

Now to volleyball: I have played both forms of volleyball extensively. I do NOT think they are redundant or the same, or even that similar. Others have pointed out the similarities and differences, so I'll leave it at that. As for the let serves and the rally scoring, I thought that had been in beach volleyball forever (we had always played that way at least...back in the late 80's and early 90's when I played). If anything, INDOOR has moved towards BEACH in that respect. If you want two different sports that are better for TV, I'd replace INDOOR volleyball with wallyball. Now THAT'S a fun, different sport, darnit. ;) I would relate indoor volleyball vs. beach to NBA basketball vs. the old outdoor streetball tourneys with two- or three-man teams. Same sport but TOTALLY different games. Or maybe NFL vs. Arena football. I think there is a place for both. One could similarly ask why we need all the snowboarding when skiing was just fine alone? OR field-hockey vs. lacrosse?

And lastly, I'm wondering about all these Jamaican sprinters. I heard they don't have testing there. Could they have used until a couple months before the olympics, then flushed their systems so the testers couldn't catch them? I was wondering about that. I'm not sure how it works.

I know I've got more, but that's enough for now. I'd like to get some of those answers first. Thanks.

[billybreen]

Looks like the IOC is investigating (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4583174.ece).

[Duke4Ever32]

Looks like the IOC is investigating (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4583174.ece).

It's about time they did something. Had they refused to investigate, their credibility would have taken a real hit. I just hope they have the chutzpah to do a credible investigation and levy penalties if they are deserved.

[bjornolf]

So much for that investigation. They basically just said "Hey, the government says she's legal, so we'll believe them over some 'website' somebody found."

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=As9a64PpD6rIbYx0tG.mkdo5nYcB?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[blublood]

I have a question about gymnastics in general...am I just remembering wrong here? Before I start this, my wife, who is admittedly only a year older than me, agreed completely with me. She was pointing it out as I was, so I don't think I'm TOTALLY off the mark here. I was pretty young, but I remember back in the days of the Mary Lou's and even into the 90's, you had to STICK all your landings and nail all your routines. I remember seeing landings I thought were good or the tiniest of wobbles on the beam and hearing the announcers talk about how huge a fault it was and how it would keep a competitor off the medal stand. Now they just gloss over it unless it's GLARING. Are the gymnasts just not as good? Do the judges just not care about that anymore? Am I just not remembering correctly? I remember thinking all the medalists back then looking just about perfect. Most of the gold medalists now wouldn't have gotten the bronze back then. Again, am I remembering wrong?



It's because of the new code of points and also because gymnasts as a whole are doing insane stunts now that Mary Lou Retton could never have dreamed of in the 80's. The code of points rewards difficulty over execution which is why you got that ridiculous result with Chung Fei. (well, that plus the Chinese gymnasts clearly benefited from some kind of political effort to give China as many gold medals as possible) Yes, her landing was awful, but she got credit for 2.5 twists, 2 flips, blind landing, or whatever that vault was which outweighed her .8 deduction for falling on the apparatus.

It's part of a generalized zeitgeist in the sport right now to push human bodies to the outermost limit and to reward tricks completed rather than what's usually referred to as "artistry." For instance, I saw Nastia Liukin on the balance beam during the exhibition night and she was incredible. Beautiful feet, beautiful legs, gorgeous arabasques on the beam, just sailing through the air. Why don't we see that in competition? Because she could never win with it. So instead we end up with exactly what you saw the first week - 8 essentially identical routines with a tangle of flips and twists your eye can't even follow, rushed through, arms flying everywhere, everybody trying to pack in their tumbling elements before the buzzer sounds. (and really, isn't the whole point of the balance beam to, uh, balance? To show extension, flexibility, you know, all that stuff? It's turned into just another version of floor exercise)

So to answer your question no, the gymnasts are actually much, much better these days, but the rush to pack in as many flips and twists as possible into every conceivable space has really hurt the look of everybody's routines.

[Bluedog]

So much for that investigation. They basically just said "Hey, the government says she's legal, so we'll believe them over some 'website' somebody found."

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=As9a64PpD6rIbYx0tG.mkdo5nYcB?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Link didn't work for me. This one works for me though :)

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=AvBi0a5E3DQ_c6uXJGx_yKA5nYcB?slug=ap-gym-underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns

[bjornolf]

It's because of the new code of points and also because gymnasts as a whole are doing insane stunts now that Mary Lou Retton could never have dreamed of in the 80's. The code of points rewards difficulty over execution which is why you got that ridiculous result with Chung Fei. (well, that plus the Chinese gymnasts clearly benefited from some kind of political effort to give China as many gold medals as possible) Yes, her landing was awful, but she got credit for 2.5 twists, 2 flips, blind landing, or whatever that vault was which outweighed her .8 deduction for falling on the apparatus.

It's part of a generalized zeitgeist in the sport right now to push human bodies to the outermost limit and to reward tricks completed rather than what's usually referred to as "artistry." For instance, I saw Nastia Liukin on the balance beam during the exhibition night and she was incredible. Beautiful feet, beautiful legs, gorgeous arabasques on the beam, just sailing through the air. Why don't we see that in competition? Because she could never win with it. So instead we end up with exactly what you saw the first week - 8 essentially identical routines with a tangle of flips and twists your eye can't even follow, rushed through, arms flying everywhere, everybody trying to pack in their tumbling elements before the buzzer sounds. (and really, isn't the whole point of the balance beam to, uh, balance? To show extension, flexibility, you know, all that stuff? It's turned into just another version of floor exercise)

So to answer your question no, the gymnasts are actually much, much better these days, but the rush to pack in as many flips and twists as possible into every conceivable space has really hurt the look of everybody's routines.

Yeah, that makes sense. Exactly what my parents said when I asked them. Here's my question about the vault though. With all these camera angles and computers and slo-mo replays the judges can use, how did they score the vault so badly? According to the "experts", the landing not only deserved a deduction, but her hand placement and leg position both deserved major deductions as well. There was no was she should have scored over an 8.6, let alone a 9.0, with those few deductions, which would have given Alicia the bronze over her. Those things are so easy to see on the equipment available to the judges, and they are easily verifiable, even to a peon like me. I'm just baffled. She did EVERYTHING wrong in that vault, yet she got over a 9.0 for execution. That seems like the real travesty to me.

As for the scoring taking so long and yet being so poor. I was thinking about it, and I was wondering. The judges are under a ton of pressure to get it right fast, yet because they are inexperienced from countries without good gymnastics programs, they need to look at the video again and again. Meanwhile, the gymnasts have to wait and wait and wait. Why do scores have to be given at the exact moment? Why not give the judges as much time as they want, but NOT make the athletes wait for a score EVERY time? Let every athlete go bam, bam, bam, then let the judges do the scoring before they go on to the next apparatus and present the scores in a row together in the order the athletes went at the end. The athletes don't have to wait forever getting nervous before they go, and some of the advantage of going later is lost. You only know if somebody REALLY screws up, which you'd know anyway. The judges would have more time to look at all the angles without as much pressure to go fast. The gymnasts could start prepping for their next event (changing gear, wrapping ankles and hands, stretching, warming up on the next apparatus, etc.) while waiting for the scores. Then they announce the scores are coming up and the gymnasts could all gather to hear them and see them on a big screen. It would be better TV-wise, cause you could cut to another venue or look at the replays and analyze the ones that need it while waiting for the scores instead of just sitting around twiddling your thumbs when one is "not that interesting". Bela and Bob could talk while we wait or something. The athletes wouldn't have to sit around waiting to go, getting nervous either. Seems like you'd have more accurate judging as well. It just seems the current method is unfair to everyone... the gymnast that just went, the gymnast about to go, the judges, the fans in the stands, the viewers. With the gymnasts warming up for the next apparatus while waiting for scores, it wouldn't take any longer than now, and might even save a little time in the long run. Just a thought. Tell me where I'm wrong here.

[Lavabe]

GOT to love that ribbon competition.:rolleyes:

Rhythmic gymnastics vs. traditional gymnastics ... discuss. Sort of reminds me of the beach volleyball vs. indoor volleyball debate.

I do, however, like the trampoline.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[sue71, esq]

Yeah, that makes sense. Exactly what my parents said when I asked them. Here's my question about the vault though. With all these camera angles and computers and slo-mo replays the judges can use, how did they score the vault so badly? According to the "experts", the landing not only deserved a deduction, but her hand placement and leg position both deserved major deductions as well. There was no was she should have scored over an 8.6, let alone a 9.0, with those few deductions, which would have given Alicia the bronze over her. Those things are so easy to see on the equipment available to the judges, and they are easily verifiable, even to a peon like me. I'm just baffled. She did EVERYTHING wrong in that vault, yet she got over a 9.0 for execution. That seems like the real travesty to me.

I'm curious... did the US lodge a protest in regards to the vault results/scoring? It would seem logical that they would, but is that something that can be protested- another country's athlete's score?


As for the scoring taking so long and yet being so poor. I was thinking about it, and I was wondering. The judges are under a ton of pressure to get it right fast, yet because they are inexperienced from countries without good gymnastics programs, they need to look at the video again and again. Meanwhile, the gymnasts have to wait and wait and wait. Why do scores have to be given at the exact moment? Why not give the judges as much time as they want, but NOT make the athletes wait for a score EVERY time? Let every athlete go bam, bam, bam, then let the judges do the scoring before they go on to the next apparatus and present the scores in a row together in the order the athletes went at the end. The athletes don't have to wait forever getting nervous before they go, and some of the advantage of going later is lost. You only know if somebody REALLY screws up, which you'd know anyway. The judges would have more time to look at all the angles without as much pressure to go fast. The gymnasts could start prepping for their next event (changing gear, wrapping ankles and hands, stretching, warming up on the next apparatus, etc.) while waiting for the scores. Then they announce the scores are coming up and the gymnasts could all gather to hear them and see them on a big screen. It would be better TV-wise, cause you could cut to another venue or look at the replays and analyze the ones that need it while waiting for the scores instead of just sitting around twiddling your thumbs when one is "not that interesting". Bela and Bob could talk while we wait or something. The athletes wouldn't have to sit around waiting to go, getting nervous either. Seems like you'd have more accurate judging as well. It just seems the current method is unfair to everyone... the gymnast that just went, the gymnast about to go, the judges, the fans in the stands, the viewers. With the gymnasts warming up for the next apparatus while waiting for scores, it wouldn't take any longer than now, and might even save a little time in the long run. Just a thought. Tell me where I'm wrong here.

Ok as for this, not going to happen. Judges are supposed to score each routine on its own merits, without comparing it to any other routines (this seems to be the job of the tv commentators ;) ). Following the procedures you mention, there is first and foremost, the extreme likelihood that judges will start comparing one routine to another. Again, each routine is supposed to be scored independently. Waiting until the end of a round to give all scores allows for judges to make, ahem, adjustments on contestant A's scores once they've seen what contestant B has done. Secondly, and perhaps as importantly, judges wouldn't have the luxury of seeing routines over again once a contestant has performed. As such, the memory of contestant A's routine fades and distorts rather quickly once other competitors have performed. The more athletes that have competed, the less fresh in the judges' minds the earlier routines become.

[bjornolf]

I'm curious... did the US lodge a protest in regards to the vault results/scoring? It would seem logical that they would, but is that something that can be protested- another country's athlete's score?

I think this is something they said they couldn't protest. I think they could protest a mistaken difficulty rating, but NOT an execution score.


Ok as for this, not going to happen. Judges are supposed to score each routine on its own merits, without comparing it to any other routines (this seems to be the job of the tv commentators ;) ). Following the procedures you mention, there is first and foremost, the extreme likelihood that judges will start comparing one routine to another. Again, each routine is supposed to be scored independently. Waiting until the end of a round to give all scores allows for judges to make, ahem, adjustments on contestant A's scores once they've seen what contestant B has done. Secondly, and perhaps as importantly, judges wouldn't have the luxury of seeing routines over again once a contestant has performed. As such, the memory of contestant A's routine fades and distorts rather quickly once other competitors have performed. The more athletes that have competed, the less fresh in the judges' minds the earlier routines become.

Well, they can still compare contestant 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 etc. now, they just can't go backwards. And as for distorting previous routines, that's what the computers, cameras, and angles they ALREADY have would be for. They already have all that technology. They showed the judges using them during the TV coverage. Anyway, point taken. However, why CAN'T they compare? I thought that was kind of the point. The best of the 8 competing should get the gold, the second best should get the silver, and the third best should get the bronze. It's all relative amongst the eight who qualified, isn't it?

[sue71, esq]

Well, they can still compare contestant 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 etc. now, they just can't go backwards. And as for distorting previous routines, that's what the computers, cameras, and angles they ALREADY have would be for. They already have all that technology. They showed the judges using them during the TV coverage. Anyway, point taken. However, why CAN'T they compare? I thought that was kind of the point. The best of the 8 competing should get the gold, the second best should get the silver, and the third best should get the bronze. It's all relative amongst the eight who qualified, isn't it?

Well, they're not SUPPOSED to compare routines. If athlete A scores a 16.250 today for a particular performance, if you take that EXACT SAME performance and put it on a different day, it *should* score the same. That's why the performance is scored independent of the others. If it were just who did better, then they would just rank the competitors at the end without scoring them.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying. But assuming judging was perfect :eek:, then a 16.5 performance would always merit a 16.5, and so on.