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View Full Version : In Defense of J.R. Henderson (Sakuragi)



tommy
08-08-2008, 12:22 PM
The dig at J.R. was not warranted. He has made a home in Japan, having lived there for seven years, learned the language, and has in fact become a naturalized citizen of Japan.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/21/sports/sp-crowe21

hc5duke
08-08-2008, 04:50 PM
I think it's fair for Henderson to represent Japan, and I think even Kaman playing for Germany is ok, too. But what Becky Hammon did is unacceptable to me. It's not like she was already playing in the CSKA like Trajan or Holden. She found out she won't make the U.S. team, so she tried out for the Russian team. HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK??? She 1) (AFAIK) is not ethnically Russian, 2) has never lived in/played for Russia before this, 3) likely will try out for the U.S. team again in 2012, given the chance (though she would be 35 by then).

I'm not usually a big fan of questioning someone's patriotism, but Anne Donovan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Donovan) put it best when she said: "If you play in [the U.S.], live in this country and you grow up in the heartland - and you put on a Russian uniform - you are not a patriotic person, in my mind."

Lavabe
08-08-2008, 05:49 PM
I think it's fair for Henderson to represent Japan, and I think even Kaman playing for Germany is ok, too. But what Becky Hammon did is unacceptable to me. It's not like she was already playing in the CSKA like Trajan or Holden. She found out she won't make the U.S. team, so she tried out for the Russian team. HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK??? She 1) (AFAIK) is not ethnically Russian, 2) has never lived in/played for Russia before this, 3) likely will try out for the U.S. team again in 2012, given the chance (though she would be 35 by then).

I'm not usually a big fan of questioning someone's patriotism, but Anne Donovan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Donovan) put it best when she said: "If you play in [the U.S.], live in this country and you grow up in the heartland - and you put on a Russian uniform - you are not a patriotic person, in my mind."

It's not quite that way. She was runner-up for MVP in the WNBA last year, yet she wasn't even put on the short list for the US. Here's a link to the ESPN Outside the Lines story from back in June:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=3427182

When watching it on TV, something seemed afoul in the process of selection for the US team.

Cheers,
Lavabe

hc5duke
08-08-2008, 06:27 PM
It's not quite that way. She was runner-up for MVP in the WNBA last year, yet she wasn't even put on the short list for the US. Here's a link to the ESPN Outside the Lines story from back in June:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=3427182

When watching it on TV, something seemed afoul in the process of selection for the US team.

Cheers,
Lavabe

If Gilbert Arenas decided to play for the Russian team, my reaction would be the same. If for some reason Kobe wasn't picked for the US team, and he decides to play for the Russian team, my reaction would be the same.

Lavabe
08-08-2008, 07:45 PM
If Gilbert Arenas decided to play for the Russian team, my reaction would be the same. If for some reason Kobe wasn't picked for the US team, and he decides to play for the Russian team, my reaction would be the same.

The proper comparison would be: if for some reason Kobe doesn't get invited to tryouts. I think at that point, I don't blame him one bit if he plays for Italy or wherever. If, on the other hand, Kobe gets invited, tries out, and then bolts, ... then I agree with you 1000%.

In this case, Donovan (or the US team administrators) didn't invite Hammon to the tryouts before Hammon started looking. Taurasi and Bird were the invites at the position. To have Donovan then come around and make that comment about Hammon was, IMHO, un-kosher. More dignified would have been a simple no comment.

I think there's one other element that differs in your comparison. The players in the men's game are adequately paid. Clearly in Hammon's case, the salary jump was an overriding factor. And clearly, her actions fell under the rules of FIBA.

Perhaps what should be done is simple: change the rules. And the US women's team administrators should have a more equitable system of choosing a team.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Uncle Drew
08-08-2008, 08:52 PM
I certainly think the rules need to be changed, and in my book a person must play for their country of origin regardless of citizenship. Now if your father was in the military and you were born in another country of course that should matter. But I don't think, and of course this is just my opinion, that anyone shouldn't be able to play any olympic sport for the country other than they were born in. Yeah, you can let Time Duncan play since he was born in the "US" Virgin Islands. But nyet on Kirilenko et al.

Here's a stupid point, but players with dual citizenships. I don't know if the olympic committee has rules about how many countries a player can suit up for. But let's say Langdon was good enough for the US team and Russia wanted him to play for them too. Could he play for both teams in one olympics as long as they didn't face each other? And what if he had been good enough to suit up for the US in 2004 and then decided to play for Russia in 2008. Is it just me, or wouldn't that get a bit awkward? I can see olympic teams "recruiting" certain players if rules aren't put in place to standardize things. I mean what is to stop some rich Japanese company to get a citizenship for Forrest Gump so he can play ping pong for Japan. The guy served in Vietnam, he played for Alabama. Magic legs, or no magic legs he's an American in my book. :D

Double-0 Devil
08-09-2008, 07:43 PM
Actually, I think this article is ingenious. If you think about it for a minute, you will realize that Doyel is actually setting up his argument so that he can call Coach K a traitor (it always comes back to Coach K bashing). Think about this: Coach K hired Mike D'Antoni as an assistant. D'Antoni holds dual American and Italian citizenships and played for the Italian national team (after having lived in Italy for 13 years). D'Antoni is therefore a traitor to the USA. Coach K, by hiring him, is also a traitor.


Acutally, I don't think it's right for people who have no ties to a country to be recruited onto their national team. However, if you have some connection, why not? We live in a global society now, with expatriates living all over the world, and they and their children often identify with more than one nationality. I don't see the problem with it. Also, part of this is the American assumption that citizenship is always determined by the country you where you were born. In actuality, relatively few western countries use our system of jus soli (citizenship by birthplace) and instead use jus sanguinis (citizenship by blood). So, it's not a simple as it seems. For example, if your mother is Italian, your father is French, you were born in Germany, but now you live in Switzerland, which team do you play for?

Papa John
08-10-2008, 10:00 AM
I certainly think the rules need to be changed, and in my book a person must play for their country of origin regardless of citizenship. Now if your father was in the military and you were born in another country of course that should matter. But I don't think, and of course this is just my opinion, that anyone shouldn't be able to play any olympic sport for the country other than they were born in. Yeah, you can let Time Duncan play since he was born in the "US" Virgin Islands. But nyet on Kirilenko et al.

I disagree with the idea of a rigid country-of-origin rule as you suggest, primarily due to the exception that you immediately introduce (which I have no problem with--a military child born abroad should be allowed to suit up for the U.S. if [s]he so chooses, but should also be allowed to suit up for the country in which [s]he was born if that is where his/her affinities lie). My feeling is that someone who has citizenship in multiple countries, or who was born in one country and now resides in another, or who has changed their citizenship from one country to another for whatever reason should be able to decide what country [s]he would like to compete for.

However, once you decide, that's it--you can never change. So, for instance, if you decide to suit up for the Russian women's basketball team in 2008, then you've made the decision that you will heretofore be representing Russia in the Olympics if you ever decide to compete again, end of story. Also, I do agree with you that there must be some logically arguable connection to the country you elect to represent. You must have been born there, hold a citizenship there, lived there for a significant amount of time, etc. Otherwise, what's the point of the Olympics?

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-10-2008, 04:02 PM
I think it's fair for Henderson to represent Japan, and I think even Kaman playing for Germany is ok, too..."

I agree it's fair for any player to represent a new country if they've made it their home. But Kaman, c'mon, he's never even been to Germany. His great grand parents came over from Germany but three generations of Kamans have now been born and lived in the U.S. Where do you draw the line? Just about all of us are from somewhere else if you go back far enough. IMO, Kaman playing for Germany is selfish if not disrespectful.

studdlee10
08-10-2008, 06:47 PM
I actually read that Kaman's dad was really upset that his son is playing for Germany. . . guess it isn't just us fans being overly sensitive.

hc5duke
08-11-2008, 01:53 AM
I actually read that Kaman's dad was really upset that his son is playing for Germany. . . guess it isn't just us fans being overly sensitive.

this article (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news;_ylt=AtYZ9lSIYesIy7A39NdF5gC8vLYF?slug=aw-kamangermany071008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) mentions his dad... LeRoy Kaman.

Uncle Drew
08-11-2008, 04:19 AM
That article says.........."but he had already given his word to Germany that he’d play for them. And once he did that, Kaman could never play for the U.S. again."

Now someone explain to me, by playing for Germany is that a US rule that he could never play for the American team or is that an olympic committee rule that once you play for country A you can never play for country B, C or D?

A Canadian chick I used to date told me that to become a US citizen you had to renounce your citizenship from your previous country. But the US was the only country that required that. Now granted that's from a Canadian and I wasn't exactly dating her for her intelligence or skiiing ability. But is that true?

I'm sorry the olympic powers that be need to sit down and lay out some citizenship ground rules after this week. Take a player like Luol Deng, under present rules he could play for Sudan, England, the US or any country that would grant him citizenship. And I think we all know qualifications for citizenship vary from country to country. I have no problem with a person who's parents came to the US as refugees and their child growing up to play for the US. But Kaman playing for Germany is like me playing for France because my moms family were Hugonauts, or playing for Ireland because my dads family had the common sense to get the hell out before the potato blight hit. You know what, forget it, I'm going to claim my moms Cherokee heritage and play for the US. The rest of you go back where you came from.

blazindw
08-11-2008, 07:01 AM
Once you play in a FIBA-sanctioned tournament for a country (which the Olympics are), you are tied to that country for the rest of your career. Thus, Kaman and Hammon can never play for the U.S. This is the exact reason why Tim Duncan, who was born in the Virgin Islands, could not play for their team after it formed (when he joined the U.S. team, there was no U.S.V.I. team). He then famously sat out a game against them in the 2003 Tournament of the Americas, IIR the correct tourney, because he did not feel right about playing against his homeland. This I agreed with back then, and still respect Tim Duncan for that because that takes a lot of conviction to respect your homeland enough to not play again them even if it hurt your current team. Something tells me that Kaman and Becky Hammon will be playing against the U.S. should they meet in the Olympics

And Becky Hammon's connection to Russia is that she plays in Russia during the offseason of the WNBA. Ironically, if she didn't make the team or decide to play for Russia, Deanna Nolan of the Detroit Shock, who also plays in Russia during the WNBA offseason, would have been selected to the team.

Finally, it is true that the U.S. requires you to renounce your citizenship to accept theirs, but the Supreme Court has ruled that the U.S. cannot do that anymore. It is still in the oath of citizenship, but it is viewed as more of a symbolic gesture. However, U.S. citizens cannot be in high policy positions of other countries, as it is viewed as a form of treason since you have the potential to pass on what could be sensitive information to other nations.

You actually see this choosing of teams a lot in soccer, especially from Brazilians who have played or immigrated elsewhere that know they have no shot at making the Brazilian national team. In fact, Marcos Senna, a Brazilian that plays club soccer in Spain, got his Spanish passport a couple of years ago (you receive it if you play in Spain for 5 years, unless you have some connection, which makes the time frame shorter). Now, he's one of the midfielders on the European Champion Spain squad. Giuseppe Rossi, who was born in New Jersey and raised in America until age 11 or 12 and then moving to Italy, plays for Italy and is representing them at these Olympics.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I think you can get a waiver to play for another team only for political hardship (like a country's collapse or seeking political asylum in another country)

Uncle Drew
08-11-2008, 09:19 AM
Blazin, thank you for explaining the whole FIBA thing, that makes a little more sense than just being able to be recruited by one country then another. I was just watching a replay of the China game (Lebron is a FREAK athlete!) and they said the China coach was the Lithuania coach and their last olympic coach was, ah I can't remember the dude's name now. But it's a prominent American NBA coach.

Anyway, I know the US has hired foreign coaches to train US athletes. Mary Lou Reton's coach was from some Eastern European country. (Don't ask me which one.) But besides all this debate about athletes playing for coutries they weren't born in, I don't really like the idea of coaches coaching teams they aren't from either. It's just my personal preferance of course. And I wouldn't mind if say a coach from Lichtenstein came to the US to learn the American way of playing under an American coach then took it back to Lichtenstein. But to me in the olympics it's about the best that country can do with what they produced, not the best they can hire and recruit.

That being said I'm starting a petition to send Tyler Hansbrough to Canada immediately to train with their curling coach to help the US team in the next winter olympics.

sagegrouse
08-11-2008, 11:04 AM
I think it's fair for Henderson to represent Japan, and I think even Kaman playing for Germany is ok, too. But what Becky Hammon did is unacceptable to me. It's not like she was already playing in the CSKA like Trajan or Holden. She found out she won't make the U.S. team, so she tried out for the Russian team. HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK??? She 1) (AFAIK) is not ethnically Russian, 2) has never lived in/played for Russia before this, 3) likely will try out for the U.S. team again in 2012, given the chance (though she would be 35 by then).

I'm not usually a big fan of questioning someone's patriotism, but Anne Donovan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Donovan) put it best when she said: "If you play in [the U.S.], live in this country and you grow up in the heartland - and you put on a Russian uniform - you are not a patriotic person, in my mind."


An NPR story about Hammon stated that playing for the Russian Olympic team was a cotnract requirement when she signed with CSKA. I take her word for it, but obviously the devil is in the details of how this provision came to be part of her contract.

However, she was not invited to be on or try out for the US Olympic team. As far as I am concerned, under those conditions she is welcome to play for anyone and enjoy the Olympic experience. Moreover, she is probably making a good living overseas as a pro basketball player.

I think Anne Donovan over-reacted, and I am one of several thousand who have said so.

sagegrouse

sagegrouse
08-11-2008, 11:14 AM
I think Anne Donovan over-reacted, and I am one of several thousand who have said so.

sagegrouse

Here's an article that reviews some of the controversy:

http://www.yardbarker.com/wnba/articles/Becky_Hammon_Gains_Support_and_Anne_Donovan_is_Sti ll_A_Moron/280031

Also, BTW, why the heck isn't Alana Beard on the Olympic team? And what role did Anne Donovan have in keeping her off? I am sure Coach G (an asst.) would have been supportive of having her best player ever represent the US.

sagegrouse