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View Full Version : Duke DOESN'T Get All The Calls: Study Says



BlueintheFace
08-06-2008, 06:33 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10921091
Some nice reading material for our tarheel "friends"

CameronCrazy'11
08-06-2008, 08:31 PM
While I agree that Duke doesn't get all the calls, his analysis is garbage. He says Duke gets less fouls called on it then Duke's opponents. However, this could just be because Duke actually fouls less than its opponents. A better criteria for determining whether a team "gets all the calls" is what percentage of questionable calls it gets (when it was unclear which team fouled or if it gets calls that should have gone to the other team). Parrish is intellectually way out of his league here.

Wander
08-06-2008, 08:55 PM
It's not perfectly conclusive by any means but his analysis is solid and its really about as good as can be expected given the data available. Parrish easily has to be the best national writer out there.

Uncle Drew
08-07-2008, 01:15 AM
The fact is as any poster on DBR can tell you, Duke does NOT get all the calls. Most any Duke fan can point out specific games where a Duke player was hacked and didn't get a whistle, or even stole / blocked the ball cleanly and got called for a foul. And while I think the data base used in this article has more holes than swiss cheese that doesn't matter. The truth is you could go back and examine every Duke game the last 25 years and get an independant commission to determine the truth we all know. And when they announced their findings to the world that Duke in fact does NOT get all the calls, it wouldn't matter to the Duke haters. Just like Area 51, the second JFK shooter and any other conspiracy you can name, proof wouldn't matter and they would continue to hate Duke and still think Duke owns the refs.

It was funny reading the comments to the article and see what fans had to say. In my book I would just like to see uniform officiating not just game to game in the ACC but nationwide. It really shouldn't be up to the players to figure out each game what the refs are going to allow and not allow. A foul is a foul whether it's in Cameron or in the Dean Dome. And a foul is a foul whether it's Clemson playing or Stanford, whether its November or March. The way certain NCAA games are called often determine who advances and who doesn't. (Give me a ref that would call a charge on Sean May and UNC has one less national championship.) And as the article mentions what one ref will call a technical for varies from ref to ref. I for one thing officiating needs to be more standardized by the NCAA, regardless of team, location, coach or any other variable.

CameronCrazy'11
08-07-2008, 01:20 AM
Tyler Hansbrough does get all the calls

Uncle Drew
08-07-2008, 02:06 AM
Tyler Hansbrough does get all the calls

I'll be totally honest with my opinion when it comes to UNC. I don't think UNC or Tyler gets all the calls. In my personal opinion they have always gotten the no calls. Tyler doesn't get called for walks, let's face it he's never attempted to block a shot or hack so I'm not surprised he doesn't get a lot of fouls. But he travels more than the roaming gnome. And for years every tall, lanky center and power forward from Warren Martin to Haywood has repeatedly gone over the back to get rebounds and putbacks without ever being called for a foul. If a player has position an opposing player should not be able to reach up and over them to grab the ball from behind, period. I'm not talking Hakeem Olajuwan reaching over the back of Mugsy Bogues here. I mean their center / power forward going over the back of the opposing center / power forward and never getting called. Okay I won't say never, but about as often as Allen Iverson gets called for paling in the NBA.

I guess when anyone says ______ gets all the calls, in my book it demands clarification. Do they mean _______ barely gets touched and it's called a foul? Or is it insinuating _______ gets away with traveling, fouling, 10 seconds etc.?

CameronCrazy'11
08-07-2008, 02:23 AM
Basically Hansbrough travels all the time but rarely gets called for it. Almost any time when there is doubt as to whether it should be a block or a charge, the call goes in Hansbrough's favor. If the referees applied the same standards to Hansbrough that they applied to Zoubek, Hans would NOT be NPOY by a longshot. The Kansas game, among others, showed that when refs adopt a "let 'em play" attitude, Hansbrough struggles big time because his play is so dependent on getting to the line.

moonpie23
08-07-2008, 10:08 AM
look for hans to be called a lot more on the traveling this year, and as previously stated, when the ref's "let em play"...he has problems....and when HE has problems, the rest of the team goes comatose....


the refs won't be protecting hans this year......roy will be mad...

hurleyfor3
08-07-2008, 10:39 AM
look for hans to be called a lot more on the traveling this year, and as previously stated, when the ref's "let em play"...he has problems....and when HE has problems, the rest of the team goes comatose....


the refs won't be protecting hans this year......roy will be mad...

That would be pretty much what happened to JJ as 2006 wore on. After three years of being The Player That Could Do No Wrong I have to imagine there will be plenty of Handsblow Backlash this year,

MIKESJ73
08-07-2008, 11:37 AM
I like that he points out the favorable calls (statistically) that Uconn gets. They mugged Brand all night, not playing defense just swatting at his arms anytime he got the ball in 99. In 2004 how many fouls did we end up with? I thought Duhon might end up playing the post with Shav, Shel, and Horvath fouling out. The three played a combined 41 minutes for their 15 fouls.

Edouble
08-07-2008, 11:41 AM
I'll be totally honest with my opinion when it comes to UNC. I don't think UNC or Tyler gets all the calls. In my personal opinion they have always gotten the no calls. Tyler doesn't get called for walks, let's face it he's never attempted to block a shot or hack so I'm not surprised he doesn't get a lot of fouls. But he travels more than the roaming gnome. And for years every tall, lanky center and power forward from Warren Martin to Haywood has repeatedly gone over the back to get rebounds and putbacks without ever being called for a foul. If a player has position an opposing player should not be able to reach up and over them to grab the ball from behind, period. I'm not talking Hakeem Olajuwan reaching over the back of Mugsy Bogues here. I mean their center / power forward going over the back of the opposing center / power forward and never getting called. Okay I won't say never, but about as often as Allen Iverson gets called for paling in the NBA.

I guess when anyone says ______ gets all the calls, in my book it demands clarification. Do they mean _______ barely gets touched and it's called a foul? Or is it insinuating _______ gets away with traveling, fouling, 10 seconds etc.?

Excellent analysis ending with an excellent question. I do think that the masses generally believe that Duke gets the benefit of actual calls, and gets sent to the line more than we should. I think that anti-Dukers believe that Coach K yells at the refs all game, more than any other coach, and says things that any other coach would be called for a technical for, and somehow intimidates the refs into calling fouls on the other team (their team)such as hand checking, or hacking, and especially charging, so that the Duke players end up shooting free throws, which lead to their team having a difficult time getting back into the game in the second half. So I would say that people that say that Duke gets all the calls are referring to the former in your question.

ACCHoopsFan1
08-07-2008, 12:45 PM
I'd like to see us get all the calls if it means advancing in March again. I'm getting tired of starting spring cleaning a week into the NCAA'S.

pfrduke
08-07-2008, 08:06 PM
Some nice reading material for our tarheel "friends"

Relying on fouls called alone is hopelessly incomplete. Officiating is more involved than just calling fouls. There are fouls not called, turnover violations (traveling, double dribbles) called and not called, loose balls that have to go to one team or another.

Parrish's ultimate conclusion is right - the notion that Duke gets favorable treatment from referees is a myth (just as, really, the notion that any team gets favorable treatment from referees). But the analysis he does doesn't really support his conclusion.

Highlander
08-07-2008, 08:15 PM
It was funny reading the comments to the article and see what fans had to say..

Amen brother. They just kept getting even more ridiculous as I went on, so I just quit reading. No use in responding either. My momma always said you should never try to teach a pig to sing...

BlueintheFace
08-07-2008, 09:36 PM
Guess what, everyone on this board, and in america, has probably seen Duke get more favorable calls than any other team. However, the reason is because everyone sees Duke the most. Duke basketball is on television more than any other NCAA OR NBA team (Lakers are 2nd behind Duke). The truth is, Duke, like any other team is going to get favorable calls sometimes. They also seemingly win more than any other team, and we get to see all of this happen from our living rooms. This is the origin of the myth. At Duke we simply have a successful program which, as we all know, subsequently garners hatred. When people try to legitimize their hatred they point to K and referees, because it is the only visible evidence that can't be easily contradicted. Why? Because we don't see other teams as much as Duke and therefore do not see how many calls they get in comparison.

Everybody sees Duke get more calls than other teams... However, most people are not smart enough to realize that the reason is because we all se Duke so much... the press doesn't help, and oh yah, Billy Packer is still a ......... well, you know.

DeepBlue70
08-07-2008, 09:43 PM
Relying on fouls called alone is hopelessly incomplete. Officiating is more involved than just calling fouls. There are fouls not called, turnover violations (traveling, double dribbles) called and not called, loose balls that have to go to one team or another.

Parrish's ultimate conclusion is right - the notion that Duke gets favorable treatment from referees is a myth (just as, really, the notion that any team gets favorable treatment from referees). But the analysis he does doesn't really support his conclusion.

Another major variable is that teams that are behind as the game wears down tend to foul more often to work the clock. Therefore the better teams and programs do tend to have a bit more favorable ratio

devildeac
08-08-2008, 10:26 AM
That would be pretty much what happened to JJ as 2006 wore on. After three years of being The Player That Could Do No Wrong I have to imagine there will be plenty of Handsblow Backlash this year,

I really, really, really hope you folks are correct with this prediction. I fear the worst and figure he'll average 30 PPG, 15RPG and 2 fouls and 1 TO/game (or less:o) and lead the "we're not good enough for the NBA gang" to a NC:(.

DukePA
08-08-2008, 06:33 PM
I really, really, really hope you folks are correct with this prediction. I fear the worst and figure he'll average 30 PPG, 15RPG and 2 fouls and 1 TO/game (or less:o) and lead the "we're not good enough for the NBA gang" to a NC:(.

My gut agrees with you devildeac. I just don't see Beaker losing favor and becoming the victim of any backlash. We can always dream and of course, miracles do happen.

sagegrouse
08-09-2008, 12:54 AM
That would be pretty much what happened to JJ as 2006 wore on. After three years of being The Player That Could Do No Wrong I have to imagine there will be plenty of Handsblow Backlash this year,

JJ in 2006 was without either Duhon or Ewing and with a whole bunch of freshmen. Greg had a really good freshman year at the point, but had a horrible tournament, especially the denouement against LSU. JJ was 3 for 18, but he was playing by himself.

sagegrouse

Uncle Drew
08-09-2008, 02:39 AM
My gut agrees with you devildeac. I just don't see Beaker losing favor and becoming the victim of any backlash. We can always dream and of course, miracles do happen.

I couldn't agree with PA more and it's just another example on things that need to be changed in officiating. We have all seen a senior go up against an under classman and the whistle goes against the fresman or soph. Even when that first or second year player is highly touted and a good / great player in his own right. The announcers will even make comments like, "not yet young fella" stating there is a pecking order in how fouls are given out. This is such equestrian fecal matter it stinks to the heavens.

God knows the NBA has always shown favoritism towards particular players. Jordan could mug an opposing player and never get called for a foul but if anyone breathed on him they got a whistle. I remember Chris Webber committing a foul once and the refs called the foul on one of his team mates standing six feet away to keep him in the game. That shouldn't be the case in the pros and sure as ^$%$ not in college. If anything, unfortunately this upcoming season Tyler will get the bennefit of more calls. Truth be told JJ's senior year he was held or fouled almost every time down the court. If the refs called each one, the opposing teams cheerleaders would have been guarding him.

I think one of the things that gets confusing in organized basketball is so many of us grow up playing on city courts or at the local YMCA. In pick up games most of us live by a no blood no foul rule. By the time good players get to college is some conferences let a lot of contact slide like playground ball. And other conferences call things closer to the actual rules. But I will say it's especially irritating to see one team get called for a foul and the opposing team does the very same thing and gets no whistle.

devildeac
08-09-2008, 09:08 AM
JJ in 2006 was without either Duhon or Ewing and with a whole bunch of freshmen. Greg had a really good freshman year at the point, but had a horrible tournament, especially the denouement against LSU. JJ was 3 for 18, but he was playing by himself.

sagegrouse

Not quite true. IIRC, Shelden had about 23/13 that game while being double teamed frequently also. The supporting cast of Lee, Sean and Greg (I think) were about 3/18 also. Sheesh, that game was awful. I thought we might go on a longer run when we came from several points down and went up by 4-6 points with about 10-12 minutes to go but never could maintain any consistency.

Wander
08-09-2008, 09:10 AM
Yeah, I remember thinking that Shelden was actually the one playing by himself (at least on offense).

Edouble
08-09-2008, 12:15 PM
When Shelden got into foul trouble, the writing was on the wall.

ice-9
08-10-2008, 06:08 AM
I thought JJ played really badly in that game. Not only in terms of shot selection and shots made but also in terms of body language. He was visibly frustrated and let everyone know it -- throwing the towel around, cursing loudly -- in short, he wasn't the leader the team needed.

moonpie23
08-11-2008, 12:28 AM
besides....if duke got ALL the calls, they would have a lot more than 3 rings :)

CrazyCat
08-11-2008, 09:30 PM
I am going to have to agree with y'all, especially in regrads to Becker. I do believe that hell does freeze over, I know I have seen it happen a few times. However, I don't think the ref's are gonna all of a sudden see the light and somehow have a change of heart. We have all seen the lack of calls made on Becker and the unjust calls made against Zoubek. I enjoyed the article non the less and enjoyed seeing the breakdown of the stats.