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Bsim412
08-03-2008, 04:47 PM
Last night 5 star Power Forward Ryan Kelly from Raliegh, North Carolina cut his list down to six schools. He listed Georgetown, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, North Carolina and Duke. Every team on his list has offered him a scholarship besides Duke. Could Mason Plumlee and Coach K coaching Team USA have a influence on where Ryan will make his college destination? Lets wait this out and see if Duke will offer him and if he will choose the Blue Devils. What do you think? :)

BD80
08-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Last night 5 star Power Forward Ryan Kelly from Raliegh, North Carolina cut his list down to six schools [including] Duke. ... What do you think? :)

I think we should put Coach Cut on the case, he rocks at recruiting in the triangle area!!!

yancem
08-03-2008, 06:47 PM
Last night 5 star Power Forward Ryan Kelly from Raliegh, North Carolina cut his list down to six schools. He listed Georgetown, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, North Carolina and Duke. Every team on his list has offered him a scholarship besides Duke. Could Mason Plumlee and Coach K coaching Team USA have a influence on where Ryan will make his college destination? Lets wait this out and see if Duke will offer him and if he will choose the Blue Devils. What do you think? :)

I wasn't aware that Duke was even interested in Kelly or him in Duke. Could be an interesting development.

jimsumner
08-03-2008, 07:13 PM
In case you don't know, Kelly is coached by former Duke player Kevin Billerman.

[actually, if you do know, he's still coached by Kevin Billerman. But I digress]

Kelly has had a great summer and is moving up the charts with a bullet. He's a skilled, intelligent player. The question for Duke is simple. Does his size and skill set differ enough from those of the similarly-gifted Plumlee brothers to justify using one of those precious thirteen scholarships?

speedevil
08-03-2008, 07:33 PM
In case you don't know, Kelly is coached by former Duke player Kevin Billerman.

[actually, if you do know, he's still coached by Kevin Billerman. But I digress]

Kelly has had a great summer and is moving up the charts with a bullet. He's a skilled, intelligent player. The question for Duke is simple. Does his size and skill set differ enough from those of the similarly-gifted Plumlee brothers to justify using one of those precious thirteen scholarships?

great point jim. he looks like another plumlee clone.

of all the teams he's interested in only duke has yet to offer. seems like he's crying for a scholarship from the bluedevils

CameronCrazy'11
08-03-2008, 08:01 PM
I think the fact that he put Duke on his list as he was narrowing down the field is a pretty good indication that Duke is interested. Even if he is a little similar to Plumlee, God knows we could use more depth up front, especially with Thomas, Zoubek, and maybe Singler gone after Plumlee/ Kelly's freshman year. We take a risk in placing all of our hope in Plumlee to be the frontcourt savior. What happens if he is a flop? Conversely, what happens if Plumlee is so good that he goes in the lottery after one year (it's not out of the question)? It won't hurt to have another elite, versatile forward on the roster. After all, we do have 13 scholarship spots.

kramerbr
08-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Does interest in Kelly have anything to do with the recruitment of Josh Hairston? They both seem to be a 4 and you'd think IF Duke did offer and Kelly chose Duke then this couldn't be a good sign of landing Hairston.

SilkyJ
08-03-2008, 08:30 PM
Does interest in Kelly have anything to do with the recruitment of Josh Hairston? They both seem to be a 4 and you'd think IF Duke did offer and Kelly chose Duke then this couldn't be a good sign of landing Hairston.

Seems fairly logical. Kelly seems to be worth an offer though. He is a 4 who could play the 5 with his size, whereas Hairston is thinner and is more of a 3, but can play the 4 in college.

CameronCrazy'11
08-03-2008, 08:39 PM
With Zoubek, Thomas, and quite possibly Singler gone, there should be enough minutes for Plumlee, Kelly, and Hairston in the frontcourt.

quickgtp
08-03-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't see how this kid would even consider UNC now because he would fight D. Wear, T. Wear, Henson, Zeller and Davis for PT (barring no early departures for the NBA.)

CameronCrazy'11
08-03-2008, 08:48 PM
I don't see how this kid would even consider UNC now because he would fight D. Wear, T. Wear, Henson, Zeller and Davis for PT (barring no early departures for the NBA.)

The silver lining to UNC's early recruiting haul of big men might be the great, late-blooming prospects won't commit. I'm betting that in the end, Duke's '09 and '10 recruiting classes will be better than UNC's.

skitelz
08-03-2008, 09:02 PM
i think the real question is whether kelly can play defense well enough to garner a duke scholly. so far he hasnt shown the ability to guard good opponents on the inside. for whatever they are, the plumlee's have shown that they can play duke-caliber defense. i dont think kelly has.

but if we do get him, one could say that Coach K has locked down north carolina as well as coach cut.

Newton_14
08-03-2008, 10:08 PM
This is interesting news.. I am a little surprised to see NCSU not on the list and Duke is.. Kelly has been climbing the charts over the summer so I would bet K and team are following his progress. I would like to see Watzone weigh in on this to see if he has any "free" insight to share at this point....

quickgtp
08-03-2008, 10:24 PM
The silver lining to UNC's early recruiting haul of big men might be the great, late-blooming prospects won't commit. I'm betting that in the end, Duke's '09 and '10 recruiting classes will be better than UNC's.

I could not agree more!

dukeimac
08-03-2008, 11:21 PM
I think we can connect the dots here.

Kelly didn't have interest in Duke until he started playing with 18 and under team. There was a story out there that said he was getting along well with Plumlee. So I think that has a string effect from Kelly's side. Duke hasn't offered their 3rd scholly. They might be waiting for Coach K to get back before they make the move and this guy isn't in a hurry to sign.

For Duke, I think he is a good fit. He is tall but moves well. He has size for a 4 but could play the 3. Yes, sounds a lot like Plumlee. But Duke hasn't been playing the typical team with a post for a few years. I like the idea of guys who can get up and down the court. You don't need a power 5 guy, if you have someone who can put a body on the power guy and someone who can come over a block their shot, that is a good move.

Think about it, 2 guys 6'10" and can get up and down the court; what a match up problem. Most teams will have to use smaller guys to guard them. Guys like Hans couldn't keep up with them.

CameronCrazy'11
08-03-2008, 11:34 PM
My hope is that the third spot in '09 goes to either Wilson or Kelly. Wilson would be a natural replacement for Gerald, but Kelly in addition to Plumlee (and seniors Zoubek and Thomas) would give us the best frontcourt we've had in years.

There's even a chance we could get Wilson and Kelly in addition to Boynton and Plumlee. Wilson's not deciding until late March, and there's a chance Gerald decides he's leaving before then, freeing up that fourth scholarship. Those four would make a monster recruiting class.

Bob Green
08-04-2008, 05:03 AM
Wilson's not deciding until late March, and there's a chance Gerald decides he's leaving before then, freeing up that fourth scholarship.

I'd rather have a Senior Gerald Henderson than Freshman Wilson or Freshman Kelly or Freshman (insert any name here).

CameronCrazy'11
08-04-2008, 05:14 AM
I'd rather have a Senior Gerald Henderson than Freshman Wilson or Freshman Kelly or Freshman (insert any name here).

Amen to that. But everyone seems to be assuming he's good as gone.

Bsim412
08-04-2008, 09:21 AM
:)I bet we see him at Duke with Mason

Devilsfan
08-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Someone on the staff must of thought his game is too much like McRob's. I say get over it and make him an offer. He's a four year player that knows Duke is the best fit for an intelligent young man who has parents that were Ivy League athletes. He's been going to Duke games since he moved into the area. Why offer someone that doesn't want to go to Duke, when you have a lifelong fan wanting to play for and learn from Coach K?

watzone
08-04-2008, 11:08 AM
This is interesting news.. I am a little surprised to see NCSU not on the list and Duke is.. Kelly has been climbing the charts over the summer so I would bet K and team are following his progress. I would like to see Watzone weigh in on this to see if he has any "free" insight to share at this point....

Kelly has expressed a lot of interest in Duke, but doesn't have an offer. His interest has been there before the U-18 games. At this time Duke is concentrating on Boynton and several offers in the class of 2010.

SilkyJ
08-04-2008, 11:23 AM
With Zoubek, Thomas, and quite possibly Singler gone, there should be enough minutes for Plumlee, Kelly, and Hairston in the frontcourt.

PlumleeS.

there will be 2 of them in the frontcourt at that point.


Amen to that. But everyone seems to be assuming he's good as gone.

I'm not assuming Gerald is gone. He may test the waters next year, and heck he may go, but I think he likes Duke and isn't in a hurry to get to the NBA. Not to mention Coach K will still have more he can teach him and he will let him know that.


Someone on the staff must of thought his game is too much like McRob's. I say get over it and make him an offer.

Why do you say that? The problem with mcbob was his attitude, not his game.

He's been going to Duke games since he moved into the area. Why offer someone that doesn't want to go to Duke, when you have a lifelong fan wanting to play for and learn from Coach K?

ridiculous logic. we don't offer/recruit people cause they are fans of us. we offer them based on talent and character and how they would fit in our program. Plumlee was a UNC fan.

Newton_14
08-04-2008, 09:07 PM
Kelly has expressed a lot of interest in Duke, but doesn't have an offer. His interest has been there before the U-18 games. At this time Duke is concentrating on Boynton and several offers in the class of 2010.

Thanks, appreciate the info. I am pulling hard for Boynton and sounds like we are making every effort to get him.. Would'nt it be great for a KB committment on the weekend of a Duke over JMU gridiron victory?? Fingers are crossed!

wolfpackdevil
08-04-2008, 09:42 PM
My high school, Northern Durham, will play Ravenscroft for the first game of the season this year, i dont know when the game will be, probally the first week of december

Davidson09
08-04-2008, 10:09 PM
I know Davidson was on Kelly's list for a while. He was also on the U-18 international team this summer, with head coach Bob McKillop of Davidson. The Wildcat faithful thought that Kelly's interaction with Coach would be an enticing offer, as Coach McKillop is quite an excellent coach.

Sad as it is that he has taken Davidson out of his running, I hope Duke gets him because Duke should welcome big men right now. That's not to say that Duke's big men are bad, just that Kelly, from reports I've read/heard, has got the game of someone who'se been playing at the collegiate level for a few years. He will bring an immediate impact to the game.

CameronCrazy'11
08-04-2008, 10:24 PM
The reason I like the idea of getting Kelly is that he's a good insurance plan. Kelly and Mason are rated almost the same right now, and if we manage to get both of them we still have one great big man even if one of the two is a flop or leaves early for the draft.

BD80
08-05-2008, 12:07 PM
DBR salute!

Quote from a front page story:

Ryan Kelly's "list as of Monday morning was Duke, Georgetown, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt and Wake Forest - six basketball schools and five fine academic institutions."

Snort.

I absolutely loved it.

It does sound like Kelly does have academics in his list of priorities. Let's hope that his time in Raleigh has taught him an appropriate disdain for the paler shade of blue, and the truth of DBR's comment!

jimsumner
08-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Zinger or not, it would be pretty difficult to make a credible argument that UNC is not a fine academic institution.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
08-05-2008, 12:32 PM
with the Plum brothers we def. don't need another skinny face up post player. I'm sure he's great... but we need a back to the basket type.

Ignatius07
08-05-2008, 12:58 PM
Isn't Hairston a skinny face-up post player?

SilkyJ
08-05-2008, 03:09 PM
Isn't Hairston a skinny face-up post player?

that's certainly my understanding. bit of an energy guy as well, but a skilled one.

jv001
08-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Zinger or not, it would be pretty difficult to make a credible argument that UNC is not a fine academic institution.

Jim you have to admit it is a little funny. Even if it's not true. I just don't like them.

Devilsfan
08-05-2008, 03:39 PM
Fine but far from elite. In terms the Heels understand, if it were ranked academically by the Wine Spectator unc would probably get a mid 80's rating and Duke would be well into the 90s.

Uncle Drew
08-06-2008, 01:21 AM
While it is very difficult for any school including Duke to get a team deep at every position all busting their buts for playing time these days. I can't help but long fr anothe team like the 1999 team where duke practices were more intense than 90% of the games they played.

Simple fact, I don't care how many big men, forwards and guards you have. It's great to have them in case of injurry and if they push one another to get playing time it only make sthe team that much better. I can understand recruits wanting to know they will be "the man" as soon as the arrive on campus and get X amount of playing time. But I have often seen players benefit from having to earn playing time on teams where they were loaded at certain positions. I'd love to see Kelly, Boynton and every top Duke target ink with the Blue Devils. I want to get back to the days when Duke subbed five guys with five other guys of similar talent and ran teams off the court or pounded it inside. Some peope like close hard fought games, I like blowouts where I can sit back and not have a stroke.

DDB4208
08-06-2008, 05:53 PM
I agree with ForeverBlowingBubbles (about skinny posts) but at the same time it can't hurt to have another 5-Star forward. The fact that Kelly has Duke in his top 6 without an offer from us says something. I think what it will come down to is if Kenny Boyton decides to go Duke, Florida or with Derick Favors to Georgia Tech (If DF commits too). If KB doesn't commit to us we will probably offer to Kelly.

Bob Green
08-06-2008, 11:08 PM
I think what it will come down to is if Kenny Boynton decides to go Duke, Florida or with Derick Favors to Georgia Tech (If DF commits too). If KB doesn't commit to us we will probably offer to Kelly.

I do not follow your logic. Boynton is a guard so it seems to me if he doesn't come to Durham we would offer a different guard. Why would an offer to power forward Ryan Kelly be tied to the status of guard Kenny Boynton? Call me confused. :confused:

CameronCrazy'11
08-06-2008, 11:23 PM
I do not follow your logic. Boynton is a guard so it seems to me if he doesn't come to Durham we would offer a different guard. Why would an offer to power forward Ryan Kelly be tied to the status of guard Kenny Boynton? Call me confused. :confused:

Yea this would seem to make the most sense. Although getting Kelly and not Boynton would allow us to go for one of the tallest lineups we've had in awhile. Something along the lines of:

Smith / Scheyer
Scheyer / Williams
Williams / Singler / Pocius
Kelly / Ma. Plumlee / Thomas / Czyz
Ma. Plumlee / Zoubek z / Mi. Plumlee

There's a lot of fun combinations there. Getting Boynton would be more fun though.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
08-07-2008, 11:39 AM
I just think you have to diversify a roster.

We have too many nice guys in our front court. We need someone with a mean streak like Brand, Williams, or even Battier at some points. Deng could get mean. At least we need to concentrate on other types of players if they are out there.

phaedrus
08-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Zinger or not, it would be pretty difficult to make a credible argument that UNC is not a fine academic institution.

you'd probably be one to argue that they have quite a basketball program, too.

Cdog923
08-07-2008, 12:16 PM
How many schollies do we have for '09? I know we have one out to Boyton, but what about Wilson? If we only have 3 for '09, then I think we should wait to see what Boyton has to say before offering Kelly. If we have 4, then by all means we should offer Kelly. His actions seem to show that he has an interest in coming to Duke, and it would be nice to have the Plums plus Kelly in '09, plus possibly Hairston in '10.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
08-08-2008, 01:19 AM
How many schollies do we have for '09? I know we have one out to Boyton, but what about Wilson? If we only have 3 for '09, then I think we should wait to see what Boyton has to say before offering Kelly. If we have 4, then by all means we should offer Kelly. His actions seem to show that he has an interest in coming to Duke, and it would be nice to have the Plums plus Kelly in '09, plus possibly Hairston in '10.

If we had Kelly, the Plums, and Hairston, we would end up with a backcourt weighing more than our frontcourt and lose every rebound battle in the ACC. Yes this is an irrational statement. but hey, it almost doesn't seem that far fetched.

Devilsfan
08-08-2008, 01:27 PM
I say offer Kelly now and let's not end up with a big having Duke second on his final list like the last two out of three years.

Diddy
08-08-2008, 03:17 PM
Given where we are at this point in the class, and where the staff is right now, I would only extend an offer to a player if he is in the bag. By which I mean that he communicates that he will accept an offer immediately.

Plumlee and Bonyton (god willing) is/are an ample class right now. Even if we suffered massive attrition this year (Kyle and Gerald), such a class would suffice. Especially because losing both of those guys would probably mean that we had a monster year.

Given who we have or will likely have next year (2010 class), I am fine with not offering any more offers out of a class that is not exactly swarming with players of need for Duke.

Especially to a player like Kelly. I am sure that he is a fine player, but I keep having horrific visions of Shav and McBob about this kid. Tall, skinny, skilled, but not an elite athlete. He looks like Shav all over again. Most of the reports from Vegas that I read were down on the kid. I don't know. I think he was helped by playing with a truly elite PG. When opposing bigs clamped down on him this summer, I heard he collapsed.

Unless one of the elite low post bigs (ie Favors or similiar) gets interested, I say we wait on Boynton and then take our scholly's to the house. After Bejieng K will have monster cred, and the 2010 class is where to use it.

Bsim412
08-08-2008, 03:25 PM
I think Coach K will offer Kelly and he will accept. I have been talking to Kenny Boynton on facebook and I am trying to figure out where he is leaning towards. I think Kelly and Boynton will both commit to use. I think Kelly might be a bust though even though he is a very hard worker. My school team plays Ravenscroft this year. I'll tell yhall how he is progressing. For now lets just say I think Kelly and Boynton will both commit to Duke.:)

kydevil
08-08-2008, 03:59 PM
I think Coach K will offer Kelly and he will accept. I have been talking to Kenny Boynton on facebook and I am trying to figure out where he is leaning towards. I think Kelly and Boynton will both commit to use. I think Kelly might be a bust though even though he is a very hard worker. My school team plays Ravenscroft this year. I'll tell yhall how he is progressing. For now lets just say I think Kelly and Boynton will both commit to Duke.:)

Since you speak with Kenny on Facebook I have to say I believe you when you say he will commit :D

DDB4208
08-09-2008, 12:14 AM
I do not follow your logic. Boynton is a guard so it seems to me if he doesn't come to Durham we would offer a different guard. Why would an offer to power forward Ryan Kelly be tied to the status of guard Kenny Boynton? Call me confused. :confused:

(This is just my opinion) I was thinking that we would offer the next best player with a scholarship. I don't know why Duke hasn't offered Ryan Kelly yet. I thought that we had plenty of scholarships but if that was the case I think Kelly would have an offer by now. If Kenny Boynton did not commit then the scholarship that would have gone to him would be available. I think that even though Kelly is not a guard, the other guard we would be giving it to is (again in my opinion) Nick Russell. He is not ranked in the top 100 according to Scout.com and Kelly is ranked 13th. While I actually am a big fan of Russell, if the Duke coaches believe these rankings are accurate in terms of the caliber of Kelly and Russell, I think that they would offer Kelly first (again my opinion). So basically I think that because Kelly is supposed to be quite better than our other guard recruit I think he would get priority in terms of recruiting. I don't think that offering to Russell, someone who might not play, would be the right choice. Again I could be completely wrong and I was not trying to insult Nick Russell, I really like that guy.

devilirium
08-09-2008, 02:33 AM
^sounds logical...the kid is skilled offensively, but (unless he's GP3) he'll be buried on the bench if he can't play defense.

Devilsfan
08-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Maybe we should let the strength and conditioning coaches do their job in building up Ryan's new 6'10" body and then let Wojo our bigs coach teach him defense. Coach Billerman, a former Duke captain, I believe, has done a great job with Ryan on the offensive side of the ball and maybe we should let the Duke coaches do their jobs on the other side of the court next year. Ryan is Duke material imo and again I say let's make him an offer he can't refuse, namely playing at Duke for coach K and his staff.

CameronCrazy'11
08-09-2008, 04:30 PM
Let me make two fearless predictions about Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly. At least one, if not both, of them will add 20 pounds by the time he plays his first college game, and another 10 once he's in college. At least one of them will be thought of as more of a traditional low-post banger type big by the time he enters college.

The notion that Kelly is too similar to Plumlee that we shouldn't take him just strikes me as silly. These guys are 17, and still growing and developing in their game. Furthermore, if Mason Plumlee's clone were interested in Duke, there would still be room for him and the original Mason on the team. If I told you there were a guard who's almost an exact copy of Kenny Boynton on the team, would you say we shouldn't get both of them? I think not.

Bsim412
08-15-2008, 10:02 AM
It looks like Ryan Kelly really wants an offer from Duke. Kelly is the #17 rated overall player in the country for 09 but I think that is way to high for him. Also Jamal Wilson is still not putting the Blue Devils aside. He has them and Michigan State way up on his list. I think Duke will offer one of these players and most likely it will be Kelly. Reports say that Coach K favors Kelly more than Wilson. More news on Kenny Boynton. It definitley looks like Duke and Florida are in the driver seat but who will he pick? I honestly think he is going to Duke because of Nolan Smith and their relationship. Look for Kenny to commit in the fall!:)

watzone
08-15-2008, 10:07 AM
It looks like Ryan Kelly really wants an offer from Duke. Kelly is the #17 rated overall player in the country for 09 but I think that is way to high for him. Also Jamal Wilson is still not putting the Blue Devils aside. He has them and Michigan State way up on his list. I think Duke will offer one of these players and most likely it will be Kelly. Reports say that Coach K favors Kelly more than Wilson. More news on Kenny Boynton. It definitley looks like Duke and Florida are in the driver seat but who will he pick? I honestly think he is going to Duke because of Nolan Smith and their relationship. Look for Kenny to commit in the fall!:)

Do you have any links on this or is it speculation or from subscription sites? It's not cool to give out information from pay sites and links are always nice. One more thing, talking to Kenny Boynton on face book as a Duke fan is not a wise idea. Didn't you read about the problems Kentucky had? Seriously, you are treading on shakey turf. Don't get too involved with a prospects recruitment as a fan if that's the case for it can hurt the team you pull for. Please don't talk to prospects as a fan and or at least don't go around sharing it. The only thing saving you from scrutiny might be your age in that you alluded to the fact you were still in high school.

Bsim412
08-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Thanks man

Marty10
08-15-2008, 11:20 AM
According to Duke.rivals.com, Duke is interested in Kelly. Here's the link, you have to be a member to see the whole article. I'm not a member.

https://secure.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?ReturnTo=duke%2Erivals%2Ecom&sid=1021&script=content.asp&cid=837916&fid=&tid=&mid=&rid=

DDB4208
08-15-2008, 06:46 PM
It looks like Ryan Kelly really wants an offer from Duke. Kelly is the #17 rated overall player in the country for 09 but I think that is way to high for him. Also Jamal Wilson is still not putting the Blue Devils aside. He has them and Michigan State way up on his list. I think Duke will offer one of these players and most likely it will be Kelly. Reports say that Coach K favors Kelly more than Wilson. More news on Kenny Boynton. It definitley looks like Duke and Florida are in the driver seat but who will he pick? I honestly think he is going to Duke because of Nolan Smith and their relationship. Look for Kenny to commit in the fall!:)


Remember that Eloy Vargas (Florida Player) is one of Kenny's best friends (probably better friends than KB and Nolan). And Kenny also is friends with Austin Rivers (Florida commit). So I don't think that his relationship with Nolan is going to be the determining factor. I hope you are right thought about Kenny committing in the fall. And yeah if I were you, I would follow watzone's advice he knows what he is talking about.

Bsim412
08-15-2008, 09:41 PM
Thanks again

Cameron
08-16-2008, 02:51 PM
Since you speak with Kenny on Facebook I have to say I believe you when you say he will commit:D


I'm not trying to come across as too confrontational or anything, but, man, please back off Bsim. This guy is facebook friends with Kenny Boynton. His Kenny wall posts will more than likely be a huge factor in whether or not the All-American recruit ends up in Durham. Because they are internet buddies, Kenny is clearly lending Bmis an invaluable inside account of the true story.

I for one am thankful we have such an invaluable source reporting the news here. This is not always the case. Usually we just have guys like watzone who are actually connected to the program in some form or another. This new poster is a refreshing change.

kydevil
08-16-2008, 04:58 PM
I'm not trying to come across as too confrontational or anything, but, man, please back off Bsim. This guy is facebook friends with Kenny Boynton. His Kenny wall posts will more than likely be a huge factor in whether or not the All-American recruit ends up in Durham. Because they are internet buddies, Kenny is clearly lending Bmis an invaluable inside account of the true story.

I for one am thankful we have such an invaluable source reporting the news here. This is not always the case. Usually we just have guys like watzone who are actually connected to the program in some form or another. This new poster is a refreshing change.

It's not hard to be his friend on Facebook, he adds pretty much everyone. Im not trying to call out Bsim or anything, but let's be for real.

DDB4208
08-16-2008, 06:47 PM
His Kenny wall posts will more than likely be a huge factor in whether or not the All-American recruit ends up in Durham. Because they are internet buddies, Kenny is clearly lending Bmis an invaluable inside account of the true story.

Getting a post such as "KENNY COME TO DUKE" and "What school are you leaning to?" are not reasons for a player to go that school, let alone a "huge factor". Bism does not know Kenny. He is just a fan who is excited about a recruit. There is nothing wrong with that but we should give Kenny his space you never know how a player will react. There are a lot of posts on his wall from Duke fans and I don't think Duke fans as a whole want to come off as annoying. And Bism didn't tell us news that we didn't know before or that he could just get from Kenny. Anyways this is a forum about Ryan Kelly. Bism didn't do anything wrong and we were just trying to give him advice.

Does anyone have any more recent news about Ryan Kelly? This isn't new but it may spark some conversation. Kelly played with Mason Plumlee on Team USA (U-18) under coach Bob McKillop (Interestingly Kelly is no longer interested in Davidson). The U-18 team got Silver in the FIBA championships.

Bluedog
08-16-2008, 07:15 PM
This guy is facebook friends with Kenny Boynton. His Kenny wall posts will more than likely be a huge factor in whether or not the All-American recruit ends up in Durham. Because they are internet buddies, Kenny is clearly lending Bmis an invaluable inside account of the true story.

I for one am thankful we have such an invaluable source reporting the news here. This is not always the case. Usually we just have guys like watzone who are actually connected to the program in some form or another. This new poster is a refreshing change.


Getting a post such as "KENNY COME TO DUKE" and "What school are you leaning to?" are not reasons for a player to go that school, let alone a "huge factor". Bism does not know Kenny. He is just a fan who is excited about a recruit. There is nothing wrong with that but we should give Kenny his space you never know how a player will react. There are a lot of posts on his wall from Duke fans and I don't think Duke fans as a whole want to come off as annoying. And Bism didn't tell us news that we didn't know before or that he could just get from Kenny. Anyways this is a forum about Ryan Kelly. Bism didn't do anything wrong and we were just trying to give him advice.

Does anyone have any more recent news about Ryan Kelly? This isn't new but it may spark some conversation. Kelly played with Mason Plumlee on Team USA (U-18) under coach Bob McKillop (Interestingly Kelly is no longer interested in Davidson). The U-18 team got Silver in the FIBA championships.

I'm 99.99% sure that Cameron was being sarcastic. ;)

bleeddukeblue
08-16-2008, 07:18 PM
I really hope that we get both of them. Kenny Boynton would fit really good in to the style that Coach K is trying to run. Watzone isn't the only person out there with reliable information. Thanks to everyone who help us with information about the recruits. If Coach K thinks that Ryan Kelly is going to help us lets take him. But we still need an athletic Post player that can change a game and we need a very athletic point guard that can break down a defense off the dribble.

devildeac
08-16-2008, 07:41 PM
We live less than 2 miles from where he plays ball. We will have to catch some of his games this season, hopefully after he decides he's coming to Duke;).

watzone
08-16-2008, 07:45 PM
I really hope that we get both of them. Kenny Boynton would fit really good in to the style that Coach K is trying to run.

That's a no brainer and has been established. What style do you feel Coach K is trying to run? The motion offense is a staple and ran regardless of the roster.


Watzone isn't the only person out there with reliable information. Thanks to everyone who help us with information about the recruits.

Now, did I say I'm the only one with reliable information anywhere on this thread or in this forum? The answer is no, so why are you coming at me saying calm down? Hey, I simply suggested that a fan not contact prospects. If you care to check out the NCAA By Laws you will know why. No information is worth an infraction and I don't think the staff would like tampering. I certainly understand fans being fans, but it is wise to leave any contact to the staff.



If Coach K thinks that Ryan Kelly is going to help us lets take him.

I'm sure this will happen if K thinks he will help us;)


But we still need an athletic Post player that can change a game and we need a very athletic point guard that can break down a defense off the dribble.

The wish list is long for us followers, but qualifying can sometimes prove to be a difficult factor in certain classes. Any player Duke puts at the PG spot next season with or without Boynton will be athletic. Like you I do hope we get Kenny Boynton Jr. The post player for next season might prove difficult if you are counting on Favors.

watzone
08-16-2008, 08:12 PM
Thanks man


For the record, I love your interest and zeal and wasn't trying to be harsh. Young fans are the future.

An aside for others who posted opions. There have been recent cases where fans from other schools posted as fans from rival schools on both Face Book and My Space. I suppose the attempt was to cause havoc in the process. This is especially true with some SEC Football schools where favors of all sorts have been promised. In this age, who is to say it is not the norm to have friends and who are prospects. Still, it has been frowned upon by the big boys. It really is an interesting issue that will seemingly continue. I mean, how do you control it? Also, the prospects seem to like it as well, hopefully, they can figure out who is legit.

Cameron
08-17-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm 99.99% sure that Cameron was being sarcastic.


Yes, thank you for noticing. I was beginning to worry about some of these guys a little:D

gotham devil
08-30-2008, 01:29 PM
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/ryan-kelly-visits-vanderbilt-plans-trips

"Ryan is making a very systematic decision," said Doreen Kelly, his mother. "He isn't going to be swayed by what he likes on a visit. He is going to make the "broken leg" decision — where would he want to go to school if he wasn't playing basketball.

"I am thrilled with the schools he is considering. They all offer him great academics and great athletics."

Devilsfan
08-30-2008, 02:47 PM
Then the decission should be clear: It's Duke. All he needs is an offer or for the parents to win the lottery (Duke education before extras $180,000 unless you're smart and need based, very smart and the only applicant from your country, and/or get a scholly).

duke5021
09-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Looks like it according to Watzone... What do you guys think?

http://bluedevilnation.wordpress.com/

SilkyJ
09-03-2008, 01:55 PM
Looks like it according to Watzone... What do you guys think?

http://bluedevilnation.wordpress.com/

I think we could use another big body down low, so its good. He's also supposed to be very versatile, so that's good too. What I worry about, even though I'm not terribly worried, with both him and Mason Plumlee is their ability to score back to the basket and D-up big, bulky centers, which is something we have been missing as of late. I think both are very talented though and when both add a little weight I think that will take care of the defense.

Ryan Kelly, come to duke!

gotham devil
09-03-2008, 02:10 PM
I think we could use another big body down low, so its good. He's also supposed to be very versatile, so that's good too. What I worry about, even though I'm not terribly worried, with both him and Mason Plumlee is their ability to score back to the basket and D-up big, bulky centers, which is something we have been missing as of late. I think both are very talented though and when both add a little weight I think that will take care of the defense.

Ryan Kelly, come to duke!
Neither of them are traditional back-to-the-basket players.

watzone
09-03-2008, 02:19 PM
I put the news up last evening, but folks just got around to seeing it this afternoon with concerns to Kelly. Keep in mind that Duke won two national titles with Laettner in the middle. They disposed of many big bodies along the way, including Shaq at LSU twice. There are but a handful of true dominant centers. Duke's interchangable defensive system is capable of picking up the slack and the fact that Kelly, should he come and the Plumlee's can all float inside and out, draws the bigs. Especially if they hit the three or ten foot jumps shots.

duke5021
09-03-2008, 02:20 PM
K likes the tempo team USA played and I don't think we will really go after too many back to the basket guys. I love offering Kelly

wilson
09-03-2008, 02:23 PM
I put the news up last evening, but folks just got around to seeing it this afternoon with concerns to Kelly. Keep in mind that Duke won two national titles with Laettner in the middle. They disposed of many big bodies along the way, including Shaq at LSU twice. There are but a handful of true dominant centers. Duke's interchangable defensive system is capable of picking up the slack and the fact that Kelly, should he come and the Plumlee's can all float inside and out, draws the bigs. Especially if they hit the three or ten foot jumps shots.

I for one am excited about the offer, and wat, I think you're spot on with these comments. Have you got any kind of bead on our chances of landing him?

Inonehand
09-03-2008, 02:23 PM
I put the news up last evening, but folks just got around to seeing it this afternoon with concerns to Kelly. Keep in mind that Duke won two national titles with Laettner in the middle. They disposed of many big bodies along the way, including Shaq at LSU twice. There are but a handful of true dominant centers. Duke's interchangable defensive system is capable of picking up the slack and the fact that Kelly, should he come and the Plumlee's can all float indside and out, draws the bigs. Especially if they hit the three or ten foot jumps shots.

Love ya Wat, but I find it hard reading anything with Laettner mentioned in the same paragraph with Kelly and Plumlee.

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
"Love ya Wat, but I find it hard reading anything with Laettner mentioned in the same paragraph with Kelly and Plumlee."

How about when Duke went 37-3 and NCAA runner-up in 1986 with Jay Bilas as starting center, all 6'8" and 7 points and 5 rebounds per game of him. Or 1994, when Cherokee Parks was center and Duke again made it to the NCAA finals. Parks averaged 12 and 7 that year, pretty good but they haven't reserved a spot in Springfield for him.

The point is that Duke has won and won big without aircraft carriers in the post.

Inonehand
09-03-2008, 03:21 PM
"Love ya Wat, but I find it hard reading anything with Laettner mentioned in the same paragraph with Kelly and Plumlee."

How about when Duke went 37-3 and NCAA runner-up in 1986 with Jay Bilas as starting center, all 6'8" and 7 points and 5 rebounds per game of him. Or 1994, when Cherokee Parks was center and Duke again made it to the NCAA finals. Parks averaged 12 and 7 that year, pretty good but they haven't reserved a spot in Springfield for him.

The point is that Duke has won and won big without aircraft carriers in the post.

Much better. Bilas came back to Duke, I think after his sophomore year, with the biggest triceps on earth. He did a great job of defending the post. Didn't hurt that Amaker and JD locked down every guard they played. Oh man, I LOVED Cherokee. If he had been healthy in the champioinship game in 94, we would have one it all for the third time in four years. If either Kelly or Plumlee could be just that good we would be happy. 12 and 7 out of an actual center would win quite a few games.

And...I understood his point all along but it was Laettner and he was an All-America and Player of the Year that was used for reference.

watzone
09-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Much better. Bilas came back to Duke, I think after his sophomore year, with the biggest triceps on earth. He did a great job of defending the post. Didn't hurt that Amaker and JD locked down every guard they played. Oh man, I LOVED Cherokee. If he had been healthy in the champioinship game in 94, we would have one it all for the third time in four years. If either Kelly or Plumlee could be just that good we would be happy. 12 and 7 out of an actual center would win quite a few games.

And...I understood his point all along but it was Laettner and he was an All-America and Player of the Year that was used for reference.

Not to worry, Laettner is my all time favorite and I remember the late sixties in hoops history. Actually, I remember the Verga, Lewis years as my start to being a fanatic. The point really is that despite Laettners talent and tenacity, he was not a true center and Duke won big. Duke is developing a good cast of players.

Heck, I think we'll be great this season. Singler is the closest thing I've seen to Laettner since his playing days.

gotham devil
09-03-2008, 03:31 PM
I put the news up last evening, but folks just got around to seeing it this afternoon with concerns to Kelly. Keep in mind that Duke won two national titles with Laettner in the middle. They disposed of many big bodies along the way, including Shaq at LSU twice. There are but a handful of true dominant centers. Duke's interchangable defensive system is capable of picking up the slack and the fact that Kelly, should he come and the Plumlee's can all float inside and out, draws the bigs. Especially if they hit the three or ten foot jumps shots.

In fairness to Shaq, he had Dale Brown as his head coach and Stanley Roberts ate his pregame meals. :D


For those clamoring for a traditional center, Josh Smith is still available for 2010.

RainingThrees
09-03-2008, 03:34 PM
It seems that Mason, Miles, and Ryan are all very similar in playing style and body type. Would it really be beneficial to use a scholarship on a player that will be like two others on the team?

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 03:40 PM
"It seems that Mason, Miles, and Ryan are all very similar in playing style and body type. Would it really be beneficial to use a scholarship on a player that will be like two others on the team?"

Well, that's the $64,000 question isn't it? Evidently, K thinks that their games are sufficiently differentiated that all bring something distinctive to the table.

Besides, don't all Duke recruits play the 3? :)

doctorhook
09-03-2008, 03:50 PM
Jim,

As you know, the game has changed quite a bit since 86 and 94. I would prefer other players we are recruting. Doc

BlueintheFace
09-03-2008, 04:16 PM
I think it is now safe to say that K has embraced a new style of play. No more Brand's, Boozers, or Williams'. The make up of Duke's future teams will be lots of three point shooters. Athletic slashing wings (preferably with size) and versatile big men who can go outside in.

bozz03
09-03-2008, 04:26 PM
is there any concern at all on how this scholarship offer might impact the recruitment of Hairston for the '10 class? He's another versatile 4 player even though he's more mid range/low post oriented however he's still going to play the 4 in college.

Oriole Way
09-03-2008, 04:27 PM
I think it is now safe to say that K has embraced a new style of play. No more Brand's, Boozers, or Williams'. The make up of Duke's future teams will be lots of three point shooters. Athletic slashing wings (preferably with size) and versatile big men who can go outside in.

Oh great, no more of the dominant POY types who got us to our last three Final Four runs and won us our last title. I'd hate to have any more of them. :rolleyes:

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 04:31 PM
I'm quite certain K would take an Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, or Shelden Williams and be quite pleased with the turn of events. But these folks are pretty rare. K did try on Blake Griffin, Patrick Patterson, Greg Echenique, and is still trying on Josh Smith. So, I'm not sure it's accurate to say that K has given up that option.

How exactly has the game changed "quite a bit" since 1994? I'd wager the mortgage that a team of Grant Hill, Cherokee Parks, Tony Lang, Jeff Capel, Chris Collins, Eric Meek, and Marty Clark would do quite well in today's game, thank you very much. If anything, the college game has increasingly come around to K's way of thinking, specifically using mobile NBA 4s as college 5s. Emeka Okafor, Sean May, Darrell Arthur. The few aircraft carriers that show up in college, e.g. Greg Oden, tend to not stick around very long.

If a team can win an NCAA title with A.J. Granger, Obinna Ekezie, Craig Forth, or the 2006 Al Horford at center, that suggests to me that it is not necessary to have a dominant 5 to cut down the nets. Helps, sure, but if you're good enough at the other four positions, you can get by with place-holders at the post. And, at the very least, the prospective firm of Plumlee, Plumlee, and Kelly mets that criteria and I suspect with a lot to spare.

doctorhook
09-03-2008, 04:36 PM
Jim,

I disagree about the 94 team. Grant was/is an amazing player and he carried that team, but I do not think that team today would be a shot away from the NC. The players today are faster, stronger, etc. Just my opinion.

BlueintheFace
09-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Maybe K watched Bosh, DWade, Kobe, CPaul, and Deron Williams on the floor together and decided -- hey, if i could just replicate that at Duke minus a few levels of awesomeness I might have another championship ring...

roywhite
09-03-2008, 04:50 PM
Jim,

I disagree about the 94 team. Grant was/is an amazing player and he carried that team, but I do not think that team today would be a shot away from the NC. The players today are faster, stronger, etc. Just my opinion.

faster, stronger?---perhaps

younger?---yes; at least at the top level, players have left college earlier.

Just my opinion, but the quality of the top teams is not what is was 15-20 years ago, mostly due to the really good players staying a short time.

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 04:58 PM
Good point Roy. Johnny Dawkins 1986; Danny Ferry 1989; Christian Laettner 1992; Grant Hill, 1994; Shane Battier, 2001. Seniors all. How many players at that level reach their senior years these days?

BlueintheFace
09-03-2008, 05:04 PM
I dunno, but if Singler stays four years.... oh god I just felt shivers

Ignatius07
09-03-2008, 05:10 PM
I dunno, but if Singler stays four years.... oh god I just felt shivers

He'll be damn good this year - we can appreciate that.

COYS
09-03-2008, 05:11 PM
faster, stronger?---perhaps

younger?---yes; at least at the top level, players have left college earlier.

Just my opinion, but the quality of the top teams is not what is was 15-20 years ago, mostly due to the really good players staying a short time.

I agree. Early entrance to the Association hurts the overall talent level of current teams, with perhaps a few exceptions (UNC's 2005 team, perhaps?). Without early entries, Duke's 2004-2005 team would have featured Shawn Livingston and Luol Deng with the senior Ewing and juniors Shelden, JJ, and Shav. The 2006 team would have looked much the same with McRoberts coming off the bench. Our 2003 team would have featured an amazing senior class with JWil, Boozer, and Dunleavy plus Ewing, Dahntay, and a stellar freshman class of JJ, Shelden, and Shav as depth. This is, of course, just a familiar example. But virtually every top team in the past few years could have been significantly better if they hadn't lost players to the draft. And other teams would certainly have been top teams if they hadn't lost players early. I definitely get the argument that athletes are faster now in general than they were . . . say 30-40 years ago, but when we go back only 15-20 years and we start comparing teams that had senior players the likes of Grant Hill or Patrick Ewing (if we go further back), it's hard to say that the championship teams of today would definitely be able to defeat those teams.

That being said, I couldn't be more happy to offer Kelly. We have no idea how recruits are going to shape up in the long run. Kelly is projected to be a better player than Mason depending on whether you prefer ESPN, Scout, or Rivals, he wants to come to Duke, he fits our system beautifully, and he's super talented.

BlueintheFace
09-03-2008, 05:27 PM
I just had not heard a whole lot about Ryan Kelly... then he listed us in his final six and we offered him a scholly. Did we just think we had no chance with him? Why the change of heart? Also, what kind of stats did he put up last year? Anybody have any answers?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
09-03-2008, 05:58 PM
I just had not heard a whole lot about Ryan Kelly... then he listed us in his final six and we offered him a scholly. Did we just think we had no chance with him? Why the change of heart? Also, what kind of stats did he put up last year? Anybody have any answers?

From the (very little) I've read it looks like he put on a lot of muscle and showed a new dimension to his game last Spring (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/player?recruitId=54645&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fplayer%3frecruitId%3d546 45), sending him shooting up the rankings. I assume this development is what piqued our interest. I am a bit concerned about the overlap with other players, esp. in light of what we still need to add but if K's interested then I'll certainly be glad to have him.

miramar
09-03-2008, 05:59 PM
I just had not heard a whole lot about Ryan Kelly... then he listed us in his final six and we offered him a scholly. Did we just think we had no chance with him? Why the change of heart? Also, what kind of stats did he put up last year? Anybody have any answers?

According to ESPN, he averaged 23.4 points, 8.7 rebounds and 4.0 blocked shots as a junior at the Ravenscroft School in Raleigh. Here's their take:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/player?recruitId=54645&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fplayer%3frecruitId%3d546 45

Scout.com says that he will be a fourth generation player and that his father played at Yale:

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=2&cid=688686&nid=3073045&fhn=1&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fscouthoops.scout.com%2fa .z%3fs%3d75%26p%3d9%26c%3d2%26cid%3d688686%26nid%3 d3073045%26fhn%3d1

C'mon, dad, send your son to a good school!

doctorhook
09-03-2008, 06:01 PM
Roywhite,

Younger in age, yes, but keep in mind that the 18 and 19 year old kids now have played more competitive, organized, well coached bball than many college seniors of 20 years ago. Doc

DevilCastDownfromDurham
09-03-2008, 06:02 PM
...played more competitive, organized, well coached bball ...

I agree with two of those...:D

mgtr
09-03-2008, 06:10 PM
I agree with two of those...:D

Excellent!!! Great post.

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 06:14 PM
I'm confused. Don't we complain all the time that fundamentals have declined, that today's players are too focused on highlight-reel dunks, don't play defense, don't dribble, pass, or shoot free-throws as well as their predecessors? So, how is it that these selfish, unskilled players are so much better than guys 10-15 years ago?

As for Kelly, I think two things happened. Duke missed on Echenique, apparently is out for Favors and faces fierce competition for Josh Smith.

Secondly, Kelly just got better and better and better. And, in response to an earlier poster, got better in such a way that the coaching staff thinks they can effectively utilize him, both Plumlees and Czyz. And a 2010 player or two.

gotham devil
09-03-2008, 06:23 PM
Two videos for those that haven't seen him.

http://www.wral.com/sports/video/3347730/


http://www.wral.com/sports/video/2937529/

dukeimac
09-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Well since Duke doesn't have the best college coach I'm not sure why they would offer Ryan. And since everyone here is so much better at assessing basketball talent I'm not sure why they offered Ryan. And since everyone has such a personal relationship with all these recruits I would believe you are a better judge of the recruits than the staff is and don't understand why they haven't consulted you yet.

Scary but that is what you sound like.

To say, KNOCK IT OFF. I'm tired of people second guessing the coach staff. These guys have gotten to know the recruits much better than you all and are in a much better position to judge who they want to recruit and offer to.

It is unbelievable to think that Coach K doesn't know what he is doing. I guess winning 3 national titles and just done coaching the O team to a golden ring just makes me want to second guess his coaching and recruiting capabilities even more.

Before saying any thing, have some knowledge. Now sit back and read what Watzone has to say, he has the knowledge or just talk about things you have knowledge about.

Oriole Way
09-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Well since Duke doesn't have the best college coach I'm not sure why they would offer Ryan. And since everyone here is so much better at assessing basketball talent I'm not sure why they offered Ryan. And since everyone has such a personal relationship with all these recruits I would believe you are a better judge of the recruits than the staff is and don't understand why they haven't consulted you yet.

Scary but that is what you sound like.

To say, KNOCK IT OFF. I'm tired of people second guessing the coach staff. These guys have gotten to know the recruits much better than you all and are in a much better position to judge who they want to recruit and offer to.

It is unbelievable to think that Coach K doesn't know what he is doing. I guess winning 3 national titles and just done coaching the O team to a golden ring just makes me want to second guess his coaching and recruiting capabilities even more.

Before saying any thing, have some knowledge. Now sit back and read what Watzone has to say, he has the knowledge or just talk about things you have knowledge about.

Man, posts like these really anger me. Just because we're not Coach K, or an ESPN analyst, or an NBA player, doesn't mean we're not allowed to talk about our favorite team and have reasonable debate and discussion. That's the whole point of this board.

Coach K isn't perfect. Yes, he's the best, but he would be the first to tell you that he makes mistakes. No, I'm not Chris Collins or Greg Paulus, but I follow the team closely so I reserve the right to share some opinions and observations, even when I don't know the whole story.

I think it's a valid concern that we seem to be recruiting alot of similar players for the same position. Personally, I think it might have been wise to wait for Hairston to make a decision before offering Kelly. I think Hairston is the more talented player, and will be harder to get. I've read from allegedly reputable sources that Kelly wants to go to Duke, so it seems to me that we'd be able to get him after finding out if Hairston will be be a Devil. I just think it would be more prudent to lock up the player who is more of a question mark to come to Duke. If Kelly commits before Hairston, wouldn't that seem like an abundance of forwards with limited minutes to go around? I'm probably wrong with this thinking, because if Hairston were to commit before Kelly, he could always back out later if he thinks there's a logjam for PT.

Either way, Kelly seems like a talented scorer, and he has some of the best programs after him. I'll be happy if he commits.

But please, humor us uninformed fans, and let us share our thoughts without being criticized for not being directly associated with the program.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
09-03-2008, 06:55 PM
To say, KNOCK IT OFF. I'm tired of people second guessing the coach staff. These guys have gotten to know the recruits much better than you all and are in a much better position to judge who they want to recruit and offer to.

Agreed, but K also knows more about in-game coaching, player development, and just about every other aspect of basketball than the rest of us. If we can't "second guess" the staff what should we talk about here? By your standard we can't discuss recruiting, playing time, on-court strategy, player development, or past players/games (who K also undoubtedly knows better than we do).

I'm trying to be reasonable here, but help me out. What should we be discussing at DBR, if not Duke basketball? Surely there's more to the community than "K is perfect, Duke is great, now I'll shut up."


Now sit back and read what Watzone has to say, he has the knowledge or just talk about things you have knowledge about.

So Watzone knows more about Duke's recruiting than K? I think Wat is great, but I'm not sure about that. Maybe, just maybe, Wat has very valuable information and opinions even if he isn't as tuned in/experienced as our head coach.

BlueintheFace
09-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Well since Duke doesn't have the best college coach I'm not sure why they would offer Ryan. And since everyone here is so much better at assessing basketball talent I'm not sure why they offered Ryan. And since everyone has such a personal relationship with all these recruits I would believe you are a better judge of the recruits than the staff is and don't understand why they haven't consulted you yet.

Scary but that is what you sound like.

To say, KNOCK IT OFF. I'm tired of people second guessing the coach staff. These guys have gotten to know the recruits much better than you all and are in a much better position to judge who they want to recruit and offer to.

It is unbelievable to think that Coach K doesn't know what he is doing. I guess winning 3 national titles and just done coaching the O team to a golden ring just makes me want to second guess his coaching and recruiting capabilities even more.

Before saying any thing, have some knowledge. Now sit back and read what Watzone has to say, he has the knowledge or just talk about things you have knowledge about.

Since you don't want to debate and discuss basic elements of Duke Basketball (like recruiting strategy and personnel) along with watzone AND the rest of us then just GET OFF the message board. This is a Duke Basketball fan site. We pose questions on strategy... we put forth hypotheticals and argue with each other. Some people play Devil's advocate every once in a while. I am sure that some arguments we have here bear some resemblance to those that occur in K's office among his staff. I believe it is you, sir, who are lacking in knowledge. Take a walk around the block and cool off.

jimsumner
09-03-2008, 07:10 PM
"I think it might have been wise to wait for Hairston to make a decision before offering Kelly."

Perhaps. But Duke recruits so selectively that they do a pretty good job of letting prospective players know where they stand, who they're recruiting, and how everyone fits together. I'm assuming Duke made sure that an offer to Kelly wouldn't negatively impact their relationship with Hairston.

It might be useful to run some numbers. Duke has 12 recruited players right now. Seven of them--Paulus, McClure, Pocius, Henderson, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas--are upperclassmen. It's not premature or inappropriate IMO to suggest that Singler might not be wearing Duke blue for Senior Day 2011.

That means Duke has N. Smith, Plumlee-1, Williams, Czyz, Plumlee-2, and Dawkins in the boat for 2010-11, with Singler as a wild card. So there's room for Boynton, Kelly, Hairston, and Thornton and that still leaves two or three schollies for Josh Smith, Barnes, Parker, Knight or another blue-chipper who might like what Duke has to offer.

Doesn't mean Duke is going to sign all or even most of the prospects above. But the need is there and the opportunity is there, so why not go for it?

ehdg
09-03-2008, 07:15 PM
Maybe it's just me but after seeing the video's I see a bit of Tyler Hansborough in him. I think he could play some low post like Tyler if he wanted too. But he does need to put on some weight/muscle.

quickgtp
09-03-2008, 07:16 PM
Man, posts like these really anger me. Just because we're not Coach K, or an ESPN analyst, or an NBA player, doesn't mean we're not allowed to talk about our favorite team and have reasonable debate and discussion. That's the whole point of this board.

Coach K isn't perfect. Yes, he's the best, but he would be the first to tell you that he makes mistakes. No, I'm not Chris Collins or Greg Paulus, but I follow the team closely so I reserve the right to share some opinions and observations, even when I don't know the whole story.

I think it's a valid concern that we seem to be recruiting alot of similar players for the same position. Personally, I think it might have been wise to wait for Hairston to make a decision before offering Kelly. I think Hairston is the more talented player, and will be harder to get. I've read from allegedly reputable sources that Kelly wants to go to Duke, so it seems to me that we'd be able to get him after finding out if Hairston will be be a Devil. I just think it would be more prudent to lock up the player who is more of a question mark to come to Duke. If Kelly commits before Hairston, wouldn't that seem like an abundance of forwards with limited minutes to go around? I'm probably wrong with this thinking, because if Hairston were to commit before Kelly, he could always back out later if he thinks there's a logjam for PT.

Either way, Kelly seems like a talented scorer, and he has some of the best programs after him. I'll be happy if he commits.

But please, humor us uninformed fans, and let us share our thoughts without being criticized for not being directly associated with the program.

Amen, Oriole Way. I was starting to wonder the whole purpose of these discussions after reading the quote originally referenced. LOL :)

DevilCastDownfromDurham
09-03-2008, 07:23 PM
Thanks Jim, that actually does set my mind at ease a good bit. So, if we do an impromptu position/depth chart we'd have something like:

PG - Nolan, Knight
SG - Boynton, Dawkins
SF - Email, Barnes
PF - Czyz, Kelly
C - Plumlee, Plumlee

with most of the guys able to slide up/down a position based on need/development. That requires some major signings, but if it works out we would be pretty darn great!

Troublemaker
09-03-2008, 07:24 PM
The "Brand / Boozer types" aren't falling out of trees, folks. Can anyone even name some players that fit the "Brand / Boozer" profile who are available and could be interested in Duke and vice versa? We're talking about top 10 / top 5 talents with huge, NBA bodies. Keep in mind Duke is already recruiting Josh Smith for 2010 but as others mentioned before, there is a TON of good competition for him. My point is some of you want to "save" this scholarship for a player that probably doesn't even exist.

Besides, that attitude is pretty demeaning and unfair to Ryan Kelly, who is a VERY good basketball player. I've watched Kelly and Mason this summer and imo, Kelly is the better player -- smoother, with a significant edge offensively (shooting/dribbling) and near equal defensively to Mason, who is a fine prospect himself. Keep in mind Mason is supposed to be better than Czyz and Miles according to the rankings, so in effect, many of you are complaining about Duke offering Kelly a scholarship despite the fact that he might be our best post player if he accepted the offer. Kinda silly.

BTW, I think Mason at the 5 and Kelly at the 4 would work well in Duke's system. They can play together and complement each other just fine.

dukeimac
09-03-2008, 08:11 PM
LOL, lets see, one has the Mason's at a C and Kelly at a 4. Yet all the experts have Mason and Kelly at 3's (can dribble and like to shoot the 3's) and Miles at a 4 (is not physical and doesn't play with his back to the basket but can dribble). Guys have Czyz at a PF yet one of his biggest weaknesses is dribbling (more than once or twice). He has a weak outside shot (10 feet+), but great slams, I wonder what position he is best suited for?

Remember, Lattner was Duke's PF because he had an outside shot and could take it to the basket and Land (6'8") played the post.

It is not debating when you question who the likes of Coach K recruits and makes offers to. That is putting you on the same level as him. It is debating how he might use them. Maybe he has plans to go to a zone defense and having 3 - 6'10" guys like the Mason's and Kelly are the right fit.

If I remember right Kansas had no true post player this year but about 4 PF and they won the title.

Wander
09-03-2008, 08:46 PM
If I remember right Kansas had no true post player this year but about 4 PF and they won the title.

Kaun and Aldrich were true post players and played important roles in the title run.

JasonEvans
09-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Personally, I think it might have been wise to wait for Hairston to make a decision before offering Kelly.

You should talk to Dean Smith about this. Ask him about the time he said, "thanks, but not thanks" to Bobby Hurley because he was sure he was going to get Kenny Anderson. Ooops.

Look, if folks want to question K's recruiting decisions, they are allowed to...

...but don't get mad at the rest of us when we shake our heads and laugh at you for doing so. The track record of betting against K's recruiting decisions is not a good one... not at all.

-Jason "I predict this thread goes in a familiar but disturbing direction now" Evans

TwoDukeTattoos
09-03-2008, 09:03 PM
Looks like it according to Watzone... What do you guys think?

http://bluedevilnation.wordpress.com/

I think it's a great offer. We've won national titles with both types of big men: versatile and back-to-the-basket. As long as he can score and rebound, it really doesn't matter what type of big he is.

Edouble
09-03-2008, 09:12 PM
The last time we landed the number one big (Burgess), his talents never came to much fruition on the court. You never know until they step on campus. I just hope we recruit some guys with fire in their gut.

Wander
09-03-2008, 09:15 PM
The last time we landed the number one big (Burgess), his talents never came to much fruition on the court. You never know until they step on campus. I just hope we recruit some guys with fire in their gut.

McRoberts?

Um, yes, that really disproves your point... :)

CameronCrazy'11
09-03-2008, 09:17 PM
If Kelly's as good as they say he is, then there's definitely room for him in our system.

We could even go with a line-up of two guards, Singler, Kelly, and Mason Plumlee on the floor. That'd give us four 3-point shooters, and 3 guys who could play in and defend the post. I wouldn't mind seeing a lot of that.

People seem to be forgetting that the college game is a lot shorter than the NBA. It's not uncommon to see 6-2 guys playing shooting guard or 6'9" guys playing "center". Kelly would be a great post player in the Duke system.

Devilsfan
09-03-2008, 09:19 PM
Great. Congratulations to Ryan and Duke. A great fit, imho. Now if we can get that skinny kid from that uppercrust private school to play defense and introduce him to the weight room were in business.

Edouble
09-03-2008, 09:25 PM
McRoberts?

Um, yes, that really disproves your point... :)

I thought of McRoberts too, but he I believe he was the #1 PF prospect, and it seems the discussion is more along the lines of centers, or at least guys that play the 5 spot in college. Burgess was clearly recruited as a 5, and had the body type and skill set to play that position. Regardless, that last #1 PF and #1 C could have worked out better. :rolleyes:

watzone
09-03-2008, 09:36 PM
Face it folks, there are some who are faithful to a fault to K and others who like to question. I suppose it takes both to tango in public message board country. Please, nobody else compare me to K in any way or take someones post out of context;)

I do trust K's judgement in that he has looked at the landscape of possibilities and made some decisions which he feels is best for Duke. And it is his team;)

There will be a lot of action in the coming months and we have to let it play out. The bottom line is Golden K has a plan.

Indoor66
09-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Face it folks, there are some who are faithful to a fault to K and others who like to question. I suppose it takes both to tango in public message board country. Please, nobody else compare me to K in any way or take someones post out of context;)

I do trust K's judgement in that he has looked at the landscape of possibilities and made some decisions which he feels is best for Duke. And it is his team;)

There will be a lot of action in the coming months and we have to let it play out. The bottom line is Golden K has a plan.

Very well said. Thanks, Watzone.

dukeballer2294
09-03-2008, 09:47 PM
It seems like every1 is penciling him in and i know he likes us but, he hasnt commited yet has he?

watzone
09-03-2008, 10:26 PM
It seems like every1 is penciling him in and i know he likes us but, he hasnt commited yet has he?

Good advice. Who is the female in your avatar?

Edouble
09-03-2008, 10:57 PM
Good advice. Who is the female in your avatar?

Eric Montross?

devildeac
09-03-2008, 10:59 PM
Eric Montross?

Seen your eye doctor recently:o;)?

watzone
09-03-2008, 11:07 PM
Eric Montross?

No, this is Montross - http://iowabiz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/15/frankenstein.jpg

It's a Cameron Crazy thing from back in the day. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

mo.st.dukie
09-04-2008, 12:59 AM
It seems that Mason, Miles, and Ryan are all very similar in playing style and body type. Would it really be beneficial to use a scholarship on a player that will be like two others on the team?

Well, I don't know about you but I would've loved 3 DeMarcus Nelson's on last years team or 3 Kyle Singler's or 3 Gerald Henderson's. You also have to remember that the beauty of Mason, Miles and Ryan are their versatility, their ability to play in the post or outside, to play either the 4 or the 5. Another thing to remember is physical development (weight and muscle gain) not just between now and the time Mason and Ryan matriculate but also during their time in college. One of them could possibly be 230 by the time they start their freshman seasons and Miles could be 240 by his sophomore year. I agree with jim that a team doesn't have to have a 6'9 260 lbs. beast inside to win a title.

dukeballer2294
09-04-2008, 01:06 AM
It seems like every1 is penciling him in and i know he likes us but, he hasnt commited yet has he?
o that is ms. jessica alba.

ricks68
09-04-2008, 02:04 AM
No, this is Montross - http://iowabiz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/15/frankenstein.jpg

It's a Cameron Crazy thing from back in the day. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?


I think I remember.:)

ricks

jv001
09-04-2008, 10:48 AM
It seems like every1 is penciling him in and i know he likes us but, he hasnt commited yet has he?

That's a good point. It's impossible to know what kids are thinking when it comes to recruiting these days. For that reason, I like Coach K's approach in offering several players. Times have changed and I think Coach K has also.

grossbus
09-04-2008, 11:04 AM
so, how tall is this guy? have seen 6'8" to 6'10".

SilkyJ
09-04-2008, 12:15 PM
I think it's a great offer. As long as he can score and rebound, it really doesn't matter what type of big he is.

AND DEFEND. But yes, I pretty much agree.

BlueintheFace
09-04-2008, 12:18 PM
Yah, my only real concern is that rebounding and defense have been identified as some of his weaknesses. He is a far better offensive player than defensive right now... a few weeks with K could fix that right up.

Diddy
09-04-2008, 05:00 PM
This situation might resolve itself come Monday, Sept. 16. That is the date after Hairston finishes his visit. Given that he may be high on Duke, and is visiting with another committed player and friend, He may well seal the deal on his visit. If that happens, with the players on the roster and comming in, I cannot help but think Kelly will look elsewhere.

Kelley is a year ahead of Hairston, but it seems like they play a very similiar game/position. Unless RK is closer to 6-10ish, in which case my above paragraph can be ignored.

Frankly, I am not sure which player I would rather have. I can find no concensus between ESPN, Rivals, or Scout. Some services have Kelly (class of 09) ranked higher than Hairston ('10). Since they are in different classes, comparisons are hard, but some services have One or the Other dramatically higher. I read some reports questioning both players, and others praising both players.

This might be a case of de facto first come-first serve. K would never phrase it thus, and would honor a scolarship to both should they choose Duke, but I have to think that if one committed the other would look elsewhere.

Next year ('09-'10)we could have Thomas, Zoubek, Plumlee, Plumlee, Czyz, and Kelley. The year after ('10-'11)would see only the departures of Thomas and Zoubs, and the experience of Plumlee (jr), Plumlee (So), Czyz (Jr), and Kelly (So) would make it hard for any but the most elite frosh (Josh Smith in other words) to penetrate the lineup. So if Kelly committs, I don't see that Hairston would like his chances.

Yes, I know I left off Singler from the above list. But if he has the year that he will very likely have this season, this could be his last in Durham. When he committed, I counted on 2-3 years. This is year 2, and I think anything beyond is gravy. I won't count on Singler being on the roster until after the NBA deadline next spring.

SupaDave
09-04-2008, 05:27 PM
Jim,

I disagree about the 94 team. Grant was/is an amazing player and he carried that team, but I do not think that team today would be a shot away from the NC. The players today are faster, stronger, etc. Just my opinion.

You seem to forget the word "skilled"... There were PLENTY of big, fast, AND strong players back then. We're talking 1994 - not 1894...

gotham devil
09-04-2008, 06:00 PM
This situation might resolve itself come Monday, Sept. 16. That is the date after Hairston finishes his visit. Given that he may be high on Duke, and is visiting with another committed player and friend, He may well seal the deal on his visit. If that happens, with the players on the roster and comming in, I cannot help but think Kelly will look elsewhere.

Kelley is a year ahead of Hairston, but it seems like they play a very similiar game/position. Unless RK is closer to 6-10ish, in which case my above paragraph can be ignored.

In your head, why would Duke offer Kelly if they thought it would have a deleterious effect on the Hairston recruitment or vise versa...particularly at this late jucture?

They may not be omniscient, but this staff doesn't capriciously hand out offers. They had to be confident that both sides would be okay with the other saying "yes."

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-04-2008, 06:33 PM
No, this is Montross - http://iowabiz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/15/frankenstein.jpg

It's a Cameron Crazy thing from back in the day. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

Oh god, I loved those days. I was there when guys dressed up like frankenstein to make fun of Montross.

Still my favorite impersonation of a tarhole was the guy a couple years ago who wore a puke blue unie and pretended to be Sean May and had the sign saying "I ate Matt Doherty"

BlueintheFace
09-04-2008, 08:11 PM
In your head, why would Duke offer Kelly if they thought it would have a deleterious effect on the Hairston recruitment or vise versa...particularly at this late jucture?

They may not be omniscient, but this staff doesn't capriciously hand out offers. They had to be confident that both sides would be okay with the other saying "yes."

I think you are confused at what he is saying. I believe he is simply saying that one player will look elsewhere after the other ACCEPTS. NOT that one player's recruitment will be negatively effected by a similar player getting a scholarship OFFER.

jimsumner
09-04-2008, 08:18 PM
Duke does not consider Kelly and Hairston to be mutually exclusive. That doesn't necessarily mean that Kelly and Hairston agree with Duke. But Duke does talk to these kids a lot and they're pretty clued in as to what's happening and why. So don't assume that a committment by one precludes a committment by the other.

BlueintheFace
09-04-2008, 08:33 PM
I agree. Though, should both accept our front court in 2010 would be Plumlee, Plumlee, Czyz, Kelly, and Hairston. At least 4 of these players would have strikingly similar games. I am sure that the Duke coaches have explained how both could fit in, but I have to admit... it would be a harder sell than most. Here's hoping the coaching staff is just that good.

BD80
09-04-2008, 08:51 PM
... should both accept our front court in 2010 would be Plumlee, Plumlee, Czyz, Kelly, and Hairston. At least 4 of these players would have strikingly similar games. ...

I don't agree, except perhaps that they are all playing the same game. Mason and Miles are said to have different games, with Mason more outside-in oriented. Czyz has great athletic ability, but not much in the ballhandling area. Kelly has just exploded, if there are two with similar games it would be Mason and Kelly, and Kelly started over Mason in this summer's international competition. I understand that Hairston is more of a 3 with a slashing game, so he could be in with two of the other "bigs".

I think Coach K believes that several long, athletic players that can handle the ball can make a potent combination. It doesn't even matter if they have "similar" games, they can play together effectively. LeBron, Kobe, Wade and Melo have "similar" games, but Coach K managed to get them to play effectively together. Further, having more than one "big" player in the game together can make for a solid help defense and can generate a lot of blocks.

Most programs would be going ga-ga over the possibility of getting EITHER Hairston or Kelly. I think we should focus on the positive rather giving reasons one or the other is preferred or might not want to come to Duke. I hope we get both - shades of this year's Olympic team!

Bsim412
09-04-2008, 09:12 PM
Ryan Kelly's high school coach went to Duke. That's why I think he is pushing him so hard to play at Duke

doctorhook
09-04-2008, 09:18 PM
Supadave,

Do you really think Marty, Eric and Chief stack up to the players of today? They were all good players with good skills, but they would not be prominent players on a 2008/9 NC team. Doc

ice-9
09-04-2008, 10:05 PM
My impression is that Miles is brought in to play the 5, so he probably won't compete with the others for playing time. Hairston is supposed to be a 3 and by 2010 we'd need one. Olek is an athlete who will likely see minutes from 3 to 5, but his game is based on athleticism not finesse.

As the another poster mentioned, the primary overlap is Mason and Ryan. Given that Mason is already a future devil, I'm sure the coaching staff took the time to ask whether Mason is OK with having Ryan as a teammate even if it means potential for fewer minutes. Given that Ryan has been offered I assume the answer is "yes."

So thumbs up from me -- Ryan sounds like a fine person and player.

jimsumner
09-04-2008, 10:07 PM
Well Parks played nine seasons in the NBA, most recently in 2004, so I suspect he could hold his own in today's game. I mean the guy was 6'11", 240, mobile, a great shot blocker, with a great shooting touch. A little flaky at times, but put the 1994 Cherokee Parks on last year's Duke team and I think we answer that national championship question in the affirmative.

Clark and Meek were key reserves on the '94 team and would admirably fill that role today.

The 1994 Duke team finished the regular season and advanced further in the NCAAs than a UNC team that included Eric Montross, Derrick Phelps, Donald Williams, Brian Reese, Jerry Stackhouse, and Rasheed Wallace and a Wake Forest team that had Tim Duncan and Randolph Childress. Why the diss party?

ice-9
09-04-2008, 10:14 PM
Oops -- I may have confused Hairston with Harrison. The latter is supposed to play college 3 while the former college 4.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 07:58 AM
Jim,

No diss party at all. I loved that team and the Thurmon shot still wakes me up at night. The point is that the game and players have changed dramatically since then. Chief was a great kid, but flaky as you said, and thought he was a guard. I do not think Marty and Eric would be good enough today to be significant role players on a national championship team.

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-05-2008, 09:03 AM
The point is that the game and players have changed dramatically since then.

That's a strong statement. I'm wondering specifically how has the game changed dramatically since 1994? It's not like they were shooting underhand free throws in 1994. I certainly don't buy any argument that players are stronger or faster today... that's a gross generalization and something you could only prove with perhaps a ton of speed and weightlifting stats or the like.


I do not think Marty and Eric would be good enough today to be significant role players on a national championship team.

Really? Marty was 6'6", athletic and a pretty good shooter - 3Pt = 37%, FT = 80%. I would love to have that in a "role" player today. Meek was greatly slowed by the accident before he got to Duke but he was big enough to bang around with opposing teams' big guys. He wouldn't lead a team on his own but would have been a good reserve to have available.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 09:32 AM
DrRosenrosen,

I am not sure how you can watch the game today, compared to 1994, and not see the difference. As for specifics, ask any high school, college coach the question and see what he says. As for physical strength, conditioning, ask Sonny Falcone at Duke and see what he says about the changes since 1994.

jimsumner
09-05-2008, 10:00 AM
So wouldn't the '94 team moved to '09 benefit from the improved training? We're not talking about Bernie Janicki playing center at 6'3".


Parks did like to float around the perimeter. But check out his rebounding and blocked shots stats. He was pretty effective inside.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 10:18 AM
Jim,

Of course, if you fast-forwarded the 1994 team to the present, they would be better because they would benefit from better competition, training, coaching, etc. That supports my conclusion that players and teams are better now. Unfortunately, I still do not believe that a time warp would improve Erik, Marty and Chief to the level of NC caliber players. Cherokee might have a chance if properly motivated.

jimsumner
09-05-2008, 11:02 AM
My what a circular argument.

yancem
09-05-2008, 11:53 AM
Jim,

Of course, if you fast-forwarded the 1994 team to the present, they would be better because they would benefit from better competition, training, coaching, etc. That supports my conclusion that players and teams are better now. Unfortunately, I still do not believe that a time warp would improve Erik, Marty and Chief to the level of NC caliber players. Cherokee might have a chance if properly motivated.

Seriously? Cherokee was a lottery pick and was said to be the best offensive center to come out of California since Walton. Now I will grant you that he didn't quite live up to that hype but he would be more than a solid contributor on a top team today. Do you really think that Sasha Kaun is better than the Chief? I think that he could have held his own with any center in college ball with the exception of Honsolo and even then he would be productive.

Marty was never a star but wasn't it him who sank crucial free throws down the stretch against Indiana in the final F4, as a sophomore, two years earlier? He was taller, stronger and more athletic than Scheyer. I'm not saying he was better, but your argument is that players are bigger, stronger and more athletic than today, so I don't see how you wouldn't think that Marty couldn't be a contributor today. I think that with his size he could have definitely gotten some minutes at the 2 or 3 on Kansas last year. Their 3 best guards were 6'1", 6'1" and 5'11". Rodrick Stewart (a senior) was the only guard with size (6'4") that they played last year and his numbers were not as good as Marty's.

In '94 Meek was the 7th man and only averaged 3.5 ppg so he wasn't any more than solid reserve back then. He mainly backed up Cherokee. Lang was the starting pf and I think that he was as athletic as most 4's in college basketball today. He was a little on the skinny side but I think that he would at least be a solid contributor today.

Besides, even if your argument about players being bigger, stronger and more athletic to day than back in the early 90's is true, I don't think that necessarily translates into better teams. In the early 90's only a handful of players entered the draft early so you always had senior laden teams that had good chemistry and knowledge of their teammates. Today, even bench players are declaring for the draft. Continuity is difficult and while there are talented young teams out there, they often struggle due to lack of familiarization with their teammates. Look at the last several championship teams, they have predominately not been the most talented, but had several juniors and seniors leading the way.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 12:16 PM
Yancem,

With regards to the Chief, if you have to go back to high school comparisons to make your point, what does that tell you? As far as comparisons to Kaun, Kaun's importance was inside, a place Cherokee did not like to venture. Chief was a journeyman pro and certainly not lottery material. I still love the guy, same for Marty and Eric.

It just seems likely to me that if you give Mike bigger, stronger, more athletic players, they will probably be a much better team. There are always factors that you can not control, injuries, bad team chemistry, etc, but usually those teams will be better.

Isn't every unprovable argument circular?

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-05-2008, 12:46 PM
I am not sure how you can watch the game today, compared to 1994, and not see the difference. As for specifics, ask any high school, college coach the question and see what he says.

Please enlighten me... what would these coaches say?

As was pointed out earlier, there are often complaints that players' fundamentals on the whole may actually have been better 15 years ago. And I understand that a particular team's style may vary from year to year based on the roster and skill sets and that a particular coach's style may evolve over time based on experience. But you seem to be saying that the game of basketball itself is played at some "dramatically" different level or in some "dramatically" different way than it was in 1994.

sagegrouse
09-05-2008, 12:54 PM
Jim,

Of course, if you fast-forwarded the 1994 team to the present, they would be better because they would benefit from better competition, training, coaching, etc. That supports my conclusion that players and teams are better now. Unfortunately, I still do not believe that a time warp would improve Erik, Marty and Chief to the level of NC caliber players. Cherokee might have a chance if properly motivated.

Lets agree that, as part of the question, that players from the past swould be given the same conditioning, training and coaching as players today. The game has changed in some ways, and it is meaningless to conjure a time warp where a players drops out of the sky, is inserted in a game, and then is evaluated against the other guys on the court. (Howsomever, I think Cherokee, more than anyone else I can think of, would actually be motivated by such a transcendental event and would do great.)

Lets take a less controversial example. The NFL in the 40s and to some extent in the 50s featured two-way players. (Chuck Bednarik on the NFL champion Eagles in 1959 or 1960 was the last of the breed.) The colleges through the 1960s had limited substitutions and players played both ways. The lean and mean and undersized linemen and linebackers from that era would fare poorly in today's game. Similarly, the 300 pounders of today's teams don't have the wind and speed (for special teams) to play both ways. Doesn't mean that the great players of the past (and present) wouldn't do well in another era -- they would just look a lot different -- yesterday's players much bigger and stronger (and fatter). (Or, for today's behomoths transported to the past, they would look terrific as 240 pounders with a real waistline).

sagegrouse

Edouble
09-05-2008, 12:54 PM
If players today are bigger, stronger, and faster, those are the players that are playing college ball for one year only. 15 years ago, there were many more "true" centers in the college game. I find it hard to believe Cherokee would not have done extremely well on last year's squad. There are many that have lamented that we did not have a healthy Zoubek last year, and those same folks are suggesting that a Final Four is in the cards if we have him healthy and productive this season upcoming. I find it very hard to believe that Zoubek, when healthy, will provide us with anything better than the senior version of Cherokee Parks would if somehow transported to 2008.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 12:55 PM
DrRosenrosen,

The coaches ( ask K. Billerman at Ravenscroft, Sonny Falcone at Duke, Chris Collins ) will say that players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than in 1994.

The teams that have these characteristics with similar coaching will likely be more successful. That is my point which I do not see as so outrageous or controversial.

dkbaseball
09-05-2008, 12:58 PM
Czyz has great athletic ability, but not much in the ballhandling area.

Hmmm. That wasn't what I thought when I saw him snatch a rebound, dribble the ball quickly up the floor, including a behind-the-back maneuver to elude a defender, and slam the ball.

BlueintheFace
09-05-2008, 01:14 PM
Hmmm. That wasn't what I thought when I saw him snatch a rebound, dribble the ball quickly up the floor, including a behind-the-back maneuver to elude a defender, and slam the ball.

but seriously... his ball handling skills are widely identified as a big weakness of his. It's good to know that he has potential for improvement there though.

Diddy
09-05-2008, 01:27 PM
If the 94 version of Cherokee Parks were to magically appear on next year's Duke Roster, Brian Zoubek would never see a meaningful minute in a Duke game. Two more of Czyz, Plumlee, and Thomas would not get on the court at all in the VAST majority of games. Chief was a little too in love with his perimeter game, but he was willing to go inside. Put Chief on this year's team and Duke is a top 2 preseason School. Maybe number 1, but no lower than number 2.

Saying Chief would not contribute today is a strong statement. The only way for it to have merit would be to say that none of our posts will contribute this year in a meaningful manner. Because none of our post options are anywhere near Chief at this point in their careers.

jimsumner
09-05-2008, 01:31 PM
"Kaun's importance was inside, a place Cherokee did not like to venture."

Really? In 1994 Parks averaged 8.4 rebounds and 2.2 blocks per game. Imagine how those numbers would have improved had he dared to go inside as effectively as Sasha Kaun. BTW, Parks attempted all of 17 three-pointers in 1994.

Parks did attempt 85 threes in 1995--third on the team--but added 9.3 rebounds and 1.8 blocks per game. So, let me suggest that he wasn't quite as afraid of playing inside as you seem to recall.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 01:45 PM
Jim,

I never said he was afraid, but he preferred to play on the perimeter and he did the same in his NBA career. I saw almost every home game, and a few away in 1994, and I think my memory is pretty good. Blocked shots are not always on the interior ( ala Landlord ), and Chief had by far the most minutes of any big guy on the team so between foul shot rebounds and minutes, you would explect at least 8 per.

jimsumner
09-05-2008, 02:37 PM
yea, those foul-shot rebounds really add up. :)

Look my memory's pretty good too so we'll have to disagree on Parks. But I find the entire implication that somehow today's players play a game that players from way back in 1994 wouldn't recognize to be most curious.

Unlike the 1950s/early 1960s switch to unlimited substitution that so tranformed football at all levels, nothing has changed structurally about college basketball since 1994. The shot-clock, three-point shot, and elimination of the center-jump had all pretty much been absorbed by 1994. The big difference is the larger number of players who go pro earlier but that hardly supports the thesis that the game has improved.

We're told that today's players are bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic, and can text message at a rate that would astound their elders. I'll concede the latter. But how many players did you see in the ACC last year whose athleticism surpassed that of Grant Hill, Johnny Dawkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Kenny Anderson, and countless others from the '80s and '90? We won't even bring up that Jordan fellow.

Bigger and stronger?

Let's check the '94 roster

Parks 6'11" 240
Tony Lang 6'8", 220 (the same size as Duke's starting center last year)
Grant Hill 6'8", 220
Jeff Capel 6'4" , 185
Chris Collins 6'3", 180
Eric Meek 6'10", 240
Marty Clark 6'6"

Add 6'8" Tony Moore, 6'9" Joey Beard, and 6'10" Greg Newton.

Where's that bigger bump? As noted earlier, if anything college-ball has gotten smaller over the years, with 4s playing the post and three-guard lineups ruling the roost.

Stronger? Probably, a little in the aggregate. Weight-training starts earlier. But I would argue that the boost is relatively minor. I'm pretty sure nobody on last year's Duke team was any stronger than were Jay Bilas or David Henderson in 1986 and I'm darn certain no one on that team was better conditioned than was Johnny Dawkins.

Fundamentally sounder? I don't think anyone wants to make that argument.

I follow college basketball pretty closely and have so for longer than I care to admit. I'm sorry but the find the idea that college-basketball has improved dramatically since 1994 to be a bit much. I'm not buying.

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-05-2008, 02:54 PM
Jim,

I never said he was afraid, but he preferred to play on the perimeter and he did the same in his NBA career. I saw almost every home game, and a few away in 1994, and I think my memory is pretty good. Blocked shots are not always on the interior ( ala Landlord ), and Chief had by far the most minutes of any big guy on the team so between foul shot rebounds and minutes, you would explect at least 8 per.

Boozer averaged 8.7 his last year.
Landlord averaged 10.7 his last year.

Were they just lucky in getting lots of foul shot rebounds to pump up their stats?

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 03:27 PM
DrRosenrosen,

Both Shel and Boozer were better rebounders. Chief had 7 more minutes per game than Boozer with the same number of boards. I am simply saying that if you are 6'10 and play 35 minutes per game and you are the biggest guy on the court for your team, you will likely get about 8/game. Free throw boards do affect stats.

Devils Rock
09-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Getting back to the original subject of this thread:

I think it's great that we offered Kelly. Although like many of you, I would prefer we somehow land a big burly a-- kicker a la Brand, Boozer or Sheldon - I think that those players are few and far between and that if we have the potential opportunity to land a top 20 quality guy then let's give him an offer.

The one thing that I have thought most about in recent years is how we have had several classes (including the JJ/Sheldon class) that did not meet our collective expectations in terms of total impact. To clarify: the JJ class produced two top shelf players, but the rest of the class ended up being pretty thin and one of the problems we had was that the JJ years were marked by JJ and Shel dominating the ball such that if a team could find a way to shut down JJ (as happened sooner or later in each post-season), we didn't really have much offensive punch after that. Likewise, the presumed epic class of McBob, Paulus etc. has left us with one senior starter after transfers and NBA departures etc. My point is that even though I often feel bad for players who end up at the end of the bench in K's Darwinian system, we may just need that Darwinian system to produce an effective 7-8 player rotation since we don't know how many recruits will actaully pan out at the level necessary to win a NC.

Just my thoughts.

Indoor66
09-05-2008, 03:42 PM
My point is that even though I often feel bad for players who end up at the end of the bench in K's Darwinian system, we may just need that Darwinian system to produce an effective 7-8 player rotation since we don't know how many recruits will actaully pan out at the level necessary to win a NC.

IMO that is quite accurate for all teams - right up into the NBA.

jv001
09-05-2008, 03:50 PM
The best high school big men go pro after high school. At least until the age limit was put into play. College basketball does not have the true post players it once had. They want to play for pay. Everyone wants to dunk a basketball. And I think Parks was a very good player that could have played in any era. Yes on last years team and on this years team, he would be the difference in Final Four and losing early. Well maybe not this year.

yancem
09-05-2008, 04:30 PM
Yancem,

With regards to the Chief, if you have to go back to high school comparisons to make your point, what does that tell you? As far as comparisons to Kaun, Kaun's importance was inside, a place Cherokee did not like to venture. Chief was a journeyman pro and certainly not lottery material. I still love the guy, same for Marty and Eric.

It just seems likely to me that if you give Mike bigger, stronger, more athletic players, they will probably be a much better team. There are always factors that you can not control, injuries, bad team chemistry, etc, but usually those teams will be better.

Isn't every unprovable argument circular?

I'm sorry that you aren't impressed with my high school comparison, maybe you would prefer 2 time all acc second team. As for his dislike for venturing into the interior, huh? As pointed out by someone else, he only shot 17 3 pt's in '94. He is also 4th in career blocks, 11th in career rebounds and 12 in career fg percentage. How do you establish those numbers on the perimeter?
Also, many people don't consider Hansolo as lottery material so does that mean he's not a solid college basketball player?

As for your statement that giving a coach bigger, stronger and more athletic players, then he will have a better team, duh! I doubt that you will find many people that will disagree. The disagreement is that players are noticeably bigger, stronger and more athletic than they were in '94. I will concede that more players may have more extensive weight training than the players back in '94 but to say that players across the board are bigger, stronger and more athletic is very doubtful. Besides Greg Oden, who has come along in the past decade that was bigger, stronger and more athletic at the center spot than Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwan, Shaquille O'Neal, or Tim Duncan? Do you really think that Kobe is bigger, stronger and more athletic than Jordan or David Thompson?

Due to the amount of AAU basketball being played by HS players today and the increased popularity of the nba during the 80's and 90's, there maybe higher numbers of top end athletes playing basketball than there was 10-15 years ago, but I don't think that quantity necessarily translates to quality.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Jim,

I know you are a history buff, but where are you getting those height/weight numbers? The Duke database lists Lang at 205 Parks at 234? I understand that various sites have different numbers. This is a serious question, not designed to tweek you.

doctorhook
09-05-2008, 06:13 PM
Yancem,

I did not say Chief did not play on the inside, I said he preferred the perimeter. As for his threes, he only shot 17 because CLANG he only made 3/17, and when he shot those threes he was gently reminded to go more inside. He shot 85 his senior year at a decent %.

My observations about athletic ablility, size, and strength were not directed or limited to just centers, but at all positions. Thompson graduated in 74 I think, Jorday in 82? and in the NBA now you have not only Kobe but Wade, Lebron, more to come. I think there are significantly greater numbers of athletic players across the league.

jimsumner
09-05-2008, 06:27 PM
Contemporary media guides.

Some of these guys flucuated. Laettner put on a good 30 pounds at Duke and it was good weight. Lang probably didn't weigh more than 205 when he showed up but was about 220 when he left. The NBA Encylopedia lists him at 230 but I can't believe he got heavier as he moved from a college 4 to an NBA 3.

But who knows for sure? Remember our friends in the Gothic Wonderland are the same folks who had DeMarcus Nelson and Gerald Henderson both listed as 6'4" last year, when anyone could see that they weren't anywhere near the same height. Marty Nessley was consistently listed at 260 and I'm pretty sure he never saw the under on 300 while in Durham. Did Brian Zoubek really gain 30 pounds in the off-season? Of course, players can lose lots of weight during a season, especially if they get a bug.

These folks really are my friends and they perform invaluable services but sometimes I wonder about this stuff.

You're probably not old enough to remember Elvin Hayes. He was 6'9.5" in college. Most players that size would have listed themselves as 6'10", 6'11". Hayes had himself listed as 6'8", figuring that would give him a psychological advantage over opponents who didn't realize he was as tall as he was.

Dean Smith was notorious for listing legit seven-footers as 6'11" or 6'11.5" under the theory that it reduced pressure on big men to perform at the Chamberlain-Alcindor level that presumably defined seven-footers.

Back in the middle 1970s NCSU decided to try a publicity stunt and invite North Carolina Agriculture Commissioner Jim Graham to bring some official weights and measures to get the "official" stats for the Pack team. Turns out that absolutely everyone on the team had different measurements than previously listed, some off by a lot. Center Phil Spence shrunk from 6'8", 230 to 6'6", 215, for example.

You would think this kind of stuff would be standardized but it seems to vary not only from school to school but from day to day.

sagegrouse
09-05-2008, 06:48 PM
Dean Smith was notorious for listing legit seven-footers as 6'11" or 6'11.5" under the theory that it reduced pressure on big men to perform at the Chamberlain-Alcindor level that presumably defined seven-footers.

You would think this kind of stuff would be standardized but it seems to vary not only from school to school but from day to day.

Back in the Bubas era, C Jay Buckley was listed as 6'11" and freshman C Hack Tison was listed at 7' during the 1961-62 season. By the next year, IIRC, both were listed at 6'10". I am not sure the lads grew during college, but I am pretty sure that 19 YOs didn't shrink!

Maybe this is where Deano got the idea mentioned above.

sagegrouse

speedevil
09-05-2008, 11:37 PM
Is Ryan Kelly better than Mason Plumlee?
Is that why Duke offered Kelly?

RainingThrees
09-05-2008, 11:59 PM
Its hard to say whos "better" They may be similar players but both are ranked differently on different recruiting sites and we all know how reliable those are. And although their games and physical characteristics may be similar there will be differences. I'll let someone who actually saw them both play judge as to whether one is better than the other.

dukeballer2294
09-06-2008, 01:32 AM
I say hopefully lets just land both of them and later in the next couple of years we can decide who is better.

speedevil
09-06-2008, 09:19 AM
I say hopefully lets just land both of them and later in the next couple of years we can decide who is better.

your right. since we already got mason, hope we get kelly also. their games look completely different based on clips i've seen on both of them.

mason reminds me of shavlik randolph, while kelly reminds me of mike dunleavy.

Devilsfan
09-06-2008, 10:16 AM
Speedevil, good observation. It's a shame Kelly wasn't offered last year. He would have jumped at the opportunity. Hope he signs as he would be VERY good for our team and his mom can be within driving distance to see him. Ryan just remember that Notre Dame is a FOOTBALL school or was before Weiss, Wake is no Duke ACADEMICALLY (you're too smart to get a diploma that doesn't say DUKE on it). So make K sweat just a little (pay back is sweet) but in the end sign with DUKE!!! He the finest coach in the land and there is no better academic institution.

SilkyJ
09-06-2008, 01:02 PM
Its hard to say whos "better" They may be similar players but both are ranked differently on different recruiting sites and we all know how reliable those are. And although their games and physical characteristics may be similar there will be differences. I'll let someone who actually saw them both play judge as to whether one is better than the other.

Coach McKillop (the davidson coach who also coached the USA U-18 team) played kelly over mason largely. I guess his judgment is the one i'd trust, but at the end of the day they are both good. I think that people seem to think kelly is a little more skilled offensively, mainly b/c his jumper is money (though mason's is not bad either) and I dont know if others agree here, but I think mason may be underrated defensively, particularly as a shot blocker (6'11" and springy...didnt he win the state high jump or something?). They both need a little weight, which will come...lets remember they are only 17 or so..

Bsim412
09-15-2008, 08:55 PM
Watzone do you have any late news on Ryan Kelly's recruting status? I am wondering because I heard from a source (don't have the link, sorry) that he is leaning towards Duke. I am not trying to start a rumor or anything but do you think he could commit to Duke soon? Also do you see Duke offering Jamil Wilson or Terrell Vinson in the 09 class and Lubick and Parker in the '10 class? :)

jimsumner
09-15-2008, 09:51 PM
Kelly-still making visits

Vinson-no

Wilson-maybe

Parker, Lubick-too early to tell

RainingThrees
09-15-2008, 10:01 PM
I think if he has any info it will be on his site.

CLT Devil
09-15-2008, 10:53 PM
Not much new in terms of Ryan Kelly news. Supposedly down to ND and Duke, as he visited ND this past weekend. Couldn't have hurt they won big over Michigan, and it's a beautiful campus with a great college atmosphere, even for the Duke game last year when we both stunk the fans were excited as ever.

Anyway, heard he could commit as soon as the next week, or could take a few more official visits. I get the feeling that it's a good thing he's taking his time, as Duke was in the hunt early and then we didnt pursue him as hard for a while, but now we're back coming at him strong. Would be a great addition to the 'new' K system.

BD80
09-15-2008, 11:39 PM
Not much new in terms of Ryan Kelly news. Supposedly down to ND and Duke, as he visited ND this past weekend. Couldn't have hurt they won big over Michigan, and it's a beautiful campus with a great college atmosphere, even for the Duke game last year when we both stunk the fans were excited as ever.

I was at the game Saturday and it wasn't the greatest campus atmosphere, unless the administration was attempting a reenactment of the great flood. The crowd was phenomenal, enduring a very hard rain from the end of the first half through the beginning of the fourth quarter. The entire student section remained full and the remainder of the stands were at least 2/3 full, even as the rain flooded the stadium. The atmosphere is somewhat uneven at ND games these days, but Michigan brings out the best in the fans. The student section is loud and was really into the game. The band played Bon Jovi during the pouring rain at halftime and the student section in unison belted out "Livin' on a Prayer."

However, ND is, and always will be a football school. It does not come close to Duke's basketball atmosphere. Further, the weather in South Bend is not very pleasant, as this weekend may have demonstrated. ND is gorgeous and is building something new on every spot available, but Duke still has the advantage on atmosphere.

phaedrus
09-15-2008, 11:54 PM
ND is gorgeous and is building something new on every spot available, but Duke still has the advantage on atmosphere.

Duke is gorgeous, has already built something new on every spot available, and for several years has created new available spots to build new things - so I guess we've got them there.

Devilsfan
09-16-2008, 12:14 AM
Notre Dame is in the middle of NOWHERE. One would have to be awful foolish to actually pick its BB program over Duke.
Even if a desperate Brey offers immediate PT, just kiss the stupid blarney stone and get your butt back to Carolina where you are wanted by everyone and earn your PT like we know you will.

dkbaseball
09-16-2008, 12:23 AM
Notre Dame is in the middle of NOWHERE. One would have to be awful foolish to actually pick its BB program over Duke.
Even if a desperate Brey offers immediate PT, just kiss the stupid blarney stone and get your butt back to Carolina where you are wanted by everyone and earn your PT like we know you will.

South Bend isn't too far from Chicago, which has a lot more big city amenities than anyplace close to Duke. And if young Mr. Kelly happens to be Irish Catholic.... well, the Duke chapel stirs the Protestant soul, but nothing quite compares to the grotto at ND for American Catholics. Factor in undoubtedly more opportunity for playing time, and the decision certainly isn't any slam dunk.

BD80
09-16-2008, 12:40 AM
Duke is gorgeous, has already built something new on every spot available, and for several years has created new available spots to build new things - so I guess we've got them there.

I meant to suggest that, like Duke, ND was gorgeous and aggressively building.

ND even tore up half of the campus golf course for more buildings (adding a new 18 hole course farther out). ND does not have anything like the Duke gardens or any hills. It does have Chicago nearby. The cathedral is comparable to the Duke Chapel. ND does have a strong appeal for Catholics. The Irish thing is a bit overblown - but with a kid named Kelly - one can never tell.

Coach K v Coach Brey ... no contest.

Jim3k
09-16-2008, 12:56 AM
The Irish thing is a bit overblown - but with a kid named Kelly - one can never tell.



There are non-Catholic Kellys out there. We've had them in my family for well over 100 years -- Presbyterian stock.

Just don't know about Ryan...

But if it matters, Coach K is Catholic

gotham devil
09-16-2008, 01:38 AM
South Bend isn't too far from Chicago, which has a lot more big city amenities than anyplace close to Duke. And if young Mr. Kelly happens to be Irish Catholic.... well, the Duke chapel stirs the Protestant soul, but nothing quite compares to the grotto at ND for American Catholics. Factor in undoubtedly more opportunity for playing time, and the decision certainly isn't any slam dunk.
Bet the house that Ryan Kelly, son of Jack (whose own father and grandfather played for the Jesuits at Fordham) and Doreen, is Irish Catholic. Chicago is just a hop, skip, and ninety miles from the Windy City. ;) As a basketball player, I'm not sure how frequently he'll be able to enjoy Chicago.


There is a strong pull for devout, well-educated Irish Catholics from NY to Notre Dame. Personally, I went through a somewhat similar list to Ryan when I was looking to transfer. Ultimately, I felt that Duke offered best combination of academics and extracurricular life, with a positive school spirit and the opportunity to work for any company in the country. Frankly, if Ryan plays his cards right, he should be able to lead a fruitful life, after attending any of his six finalists.

Good luck to him as he comes to his decision...and the Duke coaches. ;)

dkbaseball
09-16-2008, 08:43 AM
Coach K v Coach Brey ... no contest.

Agreed, of course, but let me say this about Mike Brey. He was sort of my Duke point of contact back when I used to follow recruiting closely and would bother the staff periodically. He's an extremely personable guy, and couldn't have been better in the role of dealing with meddlesome alums. I'd expect him to be a very effective recruiter.

Bsim412
09-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Seems like Duke and Notre Dame are the two schools to beat right now. I am kinda a close source from Kelly because I am in the same school conference as he is. My one of my high school basketball coach gets some good news on him. I think that if we impress him with his official visit he probably would commit to us on the spot. (Sorry I don't have a link Watzone) I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together! :):):)

jimsumner
09-16-2008, 06:36 PM
"I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together!"

Did I misread this? Mason Plumlee committed to Duke a long time ago.

dkbaseball
09-16-2008, 06:52 PM
"I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together!"

Did I misread this? Mason Plumlee committed to Duke a long time ago.

Contributor to Duke's Kelly recruiting effort, presumably. Could be, especially if Kelly sees Plumlee's game as complementary to his own, rather than duplicative. If the latter, they would be natural competitors for playing time, and Mason wouldn't be an incentive to come to Duke.

RainingThrees
09-16-2008, 06:58 PM
It seems like Mason is better on defense than Kelly although neither are real post players which is what duke needs for defensive purposes rather than offensive. Both players seem to be excellent face-up big men.

BD80
09-16-2008, 06:59 PM
"I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together!"

Did I misread this? Mason Plumlee committed to Duke a long time ago.

I believe he means that Mason would significantly contribute to the effort to recruit Kelly because Mason and Kelly are friends.

jv001
09-16-2008, 07:46 PM
"I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together!"

Did I misread this? Mason Plumlee committed to Duke a long time ago.

I took it that he means if Kelly commits to Duke not Mason. Mason has committed already. Matter of fact 2 of the 3 brothers have. Marshall next?

Bsim412
09-16-2008, 10:01 PM
I meant that Mason Plumlee would help contribute to Ryan Kelly commiting to Duke. I know people that go to my school and they play ball with Marshall and they say he will not probably go to Duke. They say that they see Marshall at Indiana more than Duke but who knows what could happen.:):):)

gotham devil
09-17-2008, 12:09 AM
Seems like Duke and Notre Dame are the two schools to beat right now. I am kinda a close source from Kelly because I am in the same school conference as he is. My one of my high school basketball coach gets some good news on him. I think that if we impress him with his official visit he probably would commit to us on the spot. (Sorry I don't have a link Watzone) I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together! :):):)

What official visit?



As of now, he's only visited unofficially.

watzone
09-17-2008, 10:28 AM
Seems like Duke and Notre Dame are the two schools to beat right now. I am kinda a close source from Kelly because I am in the same school conference as he is. My one of my high school basketball coach gets some good news on him. I think that if we impress him with his official visit he probably would commit to us on the spot. (Sorry I don't have a link Watzone) I also think that Mason Plumlee would be a HUGE contributor if he commited to Duke since they are really good friends and played on Team USA together! :):):)

I appreciate your glee in regards to covering recruiting. The reason I ask for a link is simple. If it is printed somewhere it has a little more cred, especially if the author has developed a reputation for accuracy. While I am sure an opposing coach might hear something, the chance it is lost in translation is greatly increased. This goes for high school students as well. I have seen many situations over the years where students get it wrong - in fact it is the major majority of the time and they're not above seeing the situation the way they want.

In another thread you talked of the youngest Plumlee. I know some folks close to him and I can tell you that Duke is not out of it nor are they considered to be at this time. There is a ways to go on his recruitment and friends from another school via social networking is not what I consider legit sources. Granted, there are times when they could be right, but again - much of the accuracy is sometimes is lost in translation.

While I can appreciate your take, it is still a bit rumor based which I am sure you will see as you experience more recruiting chases. There are time when rumors only hurt and I've found it's best to reason with facts, like being told the latest from the subject matter or say, their parents or immediate coaches.

Tim1515
09-17-2008, 11:08 AM
It seems like Mason is better on defense than Kelly although neither are real post players which is what duke needs for defensive purposes rather than offensive. Both players seem to be excellent face-up big men.

From what i hear Mason is seen as a better defender and rebounder. I've heard rumors that he is very capable of guarding another team's center. Kelly, on the other hand, is much more polished on offense then Mason.

I've heard one of Mason's greatest abilities is passing...having him and Kelly together on the court inside could be fun to watch.

Bsim412
09-30-2008, 09:40 PM
Today Ryan Kelly took his second unofficial visit to Duke with Jamil Wilson's official visit coming up this weekend. I know that waztzone will get upset if I don't have a link which I agree 100% with him but it is on scout.com. I am also wondering if Duke will offer Wilson but Kelly could get very interesting lately.

watzone
10-01-2008, 12:02 AM
Well surely there is a link to this on scout;) If you look in the past Kelly thread, you will see where I said a couple of weeks ago that Wilson will not visit Duke this weekend as it is listed in his bio on scout. You can't always trust what you read on the internet. Also, Kelly visited Duke on Monday and will be at UNC later this week.

Devilsfan
10-01-2008, 01:55 AM
I don't really think unc wants him so badly, except to prevent Duke from getting him. He has more in common with Duke (academic, friends, and students with his mental capacity) Probably still is miffed why it took Duke so long to offer him regardless of what he's being told, imo. Hope he realizes that outside of N. Carolina a unc diploma is not that big a deal where a Duke diploma is very highly regarded nationwide.
Now if he wants to try to become a good ol'boy just have mom prepare roy a real country dinner made with lots of fat back.

Inonehand
10-01-2008, 08:04 AM
I don't really think unc wants him so badly, except to prevent Duke from getting him. He has more in common with Duke (academic, friends, and students with his mental capacity) Probably still is miffed why it took Duke so long to offer him regardless of what he's being told, imo. Hope he realizes that outside of N. Carolina a unc diploma is not that big a deal where a Duke diploma is very highly regarded nationwide.
Now if he wants to try to become a good ol'boy just have mom prepare roy a real country dinner made with lots of fat back.

So, you are a UNC fan? This type of post wouldn't come from a real Duke fan. Ever.

jimsumner
10-01-2008, 09:17 AM
"students with his mental capacity"

A bit much, methinks. The young man is considering Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Wake Forest, and UNC, in addition to Duke. I suspect if he tries really, really hard, he can find some intellectual stimulation in those places.

Edouble
10-01-2008, 01:08 PM
So, you are a UNC fan? This type of post wouldn't come from a real Duke fan. Ever.

I take it then, that you have never read one of dukemomLA's posts?

Carlos
10-01-2008, 01:30 PM
I don't really think unc wants him so badly, except to prevent Duke from getting him.

With 13 available scholarships and the uncertainty over who is going to be back from one year to the next, it's crazy to believe that any coach would burn a scholarship on a guy just to keep him from another school. Plus it's crazy to think that someone would recruit a player as talented as Kelly and not really want him.

Inonehand
10-01-2008, 03:50 PM
I take it then, that you have never read one of dukemomLA's posts?

Some things one tries to forget. Noted.

CameronCrazy'11
10-01-2008, 04:51 PM
So, you are a UNC fan? This type of post wouldn't come from a real Duke fan. Ever.

Isn't this sort of like the DBR equivalent of comparing someone to Hitler? Shouldn't everyone get the benefit of the doubt that they're not undercover Hole fans?

sandinmyshoes
10-02-2008, 10:03 AM
The word from my UNC friends is that they do not feel confident in the Kelly recruitment. Number one on their list appears to be all the front court players already committed. They seem to think it's just too much of an obstacle for Williams to overcome since a few of those guys are likely four year players, including the twins who started ahead of Kelly on whatever international team they all played with.

Still, after the Wright recruitment, I remain paranoid about Williams' ability to pull off an unlikely recruiting coup.

SupaDave
10-02-2008, 10:13 AM
The word from my UNC friends is that they do not feel confident in the Kelly recruitment. Number one on their list appears to be all the front court players already committed. They seem to think it's just too much of an obstacle for Williams to overcome since a few of those guys are likely four year players, including the twins who started ahead of Kelly on whatever international team they all played with.

Still, after the Wright recruitment, I remain paranoid about Williams' ability to pull off an unlikely recruiting coup.

He had Wright for one year and got nothing out of it. I'm not too worried...

jimsumner
10-02-2008, 10:18 AM
"He had Wright for one year and got nothing out of it. I'm not too worried... "

Well nothing except that ACC championship, a series sweep of Duke, and an appearance in a regional final. Nothing to sneer at.

SupaDave
10-02-2008, 10:23 AM
"He had Wright for one year and got nothing out of it. I'm not too worried... "

Well nothing except that ACC championship, a series sweep of Duke, and an appearance in a regional final. Nothing to sneer at.

Well I happen to think that's more a reflection of our team at the time (and a young ACC too for that matter). Remember, our team was not mentally tough at that time.

It's also fair to say that they would have gotten that far without him b/c they still had two serviceable back-ups. It's not like Wright was their leading scorer - Beasley and Carmelo he was NOT.

revmel53
10-02-2008, 10:30 AM
While unc did win the ACC and sweep us, they were loaded and their meltdown against Georgetown was a debacle that unc people won't be over for years... I agree with the previous post. williams had wright and got nothing out of him.

Inonehand
10-02-2008, 12:01 PM
Isn't this sort of like the DBR equivalent of comparing someone to Hitler? Shouldn't everyone get the benefit of the doubt that they're not undercover Hole fans?

Hitler? Not really. Just don't see the value in that type of posting in case anyone that truly matters is reading here.

jimsumner
10-02-2008, 12:18 PM
Okay, let's put it the other way. Wright comes to Duke for one season, joins McRoberts, Nelson, Paulus, Henderson, Scheyer, McClure, Thomas, et. al. to help Duke go 31-7, tie for first in the ACC regular season, win the tournament, sweep UNC and advance to the Elite Eight. Then he goes pro.

Would we accept the contention that "Duke got nothing out of it?" I suspect not.

revmel53
10-02-2008, 12:31 PM
Okay, let's put it another way... We have wright, along with all the players mentioned. We're far and away celebrated as the best team in the country, a team that can't lose. There's a meltdown that we're still not over. We don't win the national championship... We don't even make the Final Four. When the going gets tough in the regional final, we're embarrassed to see our players panic and clueless as to how to respond... With that taste in our mouths, wright leaves after his freshman year. We don't think we didn't get anything out of him? I suspect not... The truth is that we would wonder if he really played for us...

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-02-2008, 12:42 PM
Ol' Roy's coaching and his recruiting are (happily) two different issues. The fact is that we were considered the overwhelming favorites for Wright and UNC snatched him from under our noses. (Think of Shav as the flip side: a recruiting victory despite what he turned out to be.) Regardless of what he became, we got beat head-to-head for a top-flight prospect by our arch rival. Even if Wright had never played for one second that is a problem and, as Sandinmyshoes notes, a relevant data point as we look at recruiting going forward.

jimsumner
10-02-2008, 12:57 PM
"Okay, let's put it another way... We have wright, along with all the players mentioned. We're far and away celebrated as the best team in the country, a team that can't lose"

Actually UNC was ranked fourth in the country going into the 2007 NCAA Tournament. Their key players were sophomores-Hansbrough, Ginyard, Green, Frasor--and freshmen--Wright, Lawson, Ellington. A talented team but an up-and-comer.

Wright comes back in '08 and they are prohibitive favorites. But he didn't, he sat on the bench in the NBA twiddling his thumbs and counting his money. There's the rub not the idea that he didn't help UNC in '07. Remember the game in CIS that year?

Florida was the defending NCAA champions with most of the title team intact and Ohio State, with Oden and Conley, was coming up fast on the outside. No rational person would have maintained that UNC was either far and away celebrated as the best team in the country or a team that couldn't lose.

And, yes I realize the qualifier eliminates a good portion of the UNC fan base. :)

gags1288
10-02-2008, 01:08 PM
The word from my UNC friends is that they do not feel confident in the Kelly recruitment. Number one on their list appears to be all the front court players already committed. They seem to think it's just too much of an obstacle for Williams to overcome since a few of those guys are likely four year players, including the twins who started ahead of Kelly on whatever international team they all played with.

Still, after the Wright recruitment, I remain paranoid about Williams' ability to pull off an unlikely recruiting coup.
Kelly started on that U-18 team and one of the Wears (can't remember which one) received the least amount of PT of anyone on the team.

Anyone saying that UNC doesn't want Kelly bad is flat out wrong. Roy has held off offering a scholarship to any of the wings in the 2010 class (Barnes, Roscoe Smith, Travis McKie) waiting on Kelly's decision because if UNC lands Kelly they aren't guaranteed to have a spot for a wing in 2010.

sandinmyshoes
10-02-2008, 02:20 PM
I have little doubt that Williams wants Kelly. It seems he never has enough post players to satisfy him.

As for what he got out of Wright, it simply is beside the point. Making the argument that he got nothing out of Wright might provide some sort of rivalry bluster, but the real point is that I would not underestimate Williams when it comes to recruiting.

However, the front court numbers for UNC have to figure into Kelly's thinking, so we have that going for us among other things.

RainingThrees
10-05-2008, 07:40 PM
Does anyone know if Kelly has set a date for when he is committing? Or is he just waiting till he thinks its the right time.

watzone
10-06-2008, 02:00 PM
Does anyone know if Kelly has set a date for when he is committing? Or is he just waiting till he thinks its the right time.

No official date has been set.

Bsim412
10-06-2008, 09:22 PM
Has anyone heard anything on Kelly's pick for his decision? I heard he can make a decision anyday now.

RainingThrees
10-07-2008, 06:21 PM
It just became official what most of us knew already. Duke is out of the running for Jamil Wilson. I don't think the coaching staff ever had that must interest though. The question is does this affect Kelly's recruitment in any way? I don't think it does but I'd like to hear some opinions.

duketaylor
10-07-2008, 08:41 PM
is likely within the next few days, from what I've heard.

RainingThrees
10-07-2008, 08:48 PM
To Duke or are you talking about him choosing any school? I think it's in general agreement that his verbal will be very soon, but people also were saying Hairston would commit any day for a month or so.

Bsim412
10-07-2008, 09:40 PM
Do you know the date by chance and the school he is leaning towards? Also we knew Duke had no shot at wanting or landing Wilson

duketaylor
10-08-2008, 09:39 AM
No and no.

pbc2
10-08-2008, 10:22 AM
Adam Zagoria (zagsblog.net) is reporting that Kelly will announce tomorrow at 6:00 PM on ESPNU.

CMS2478
10-08-2008, 10:42 AM
Adam Zagoria (zagsblog.net) is reporting that Kelly will announce tomorrow at 6:00 PM on ESPNU.

Not sure why, but I think he picks Notre Dame. Of course, I hope I am totally wrong!!! :(

sandinmyshoes
10-08-2008, 10:43 AM
The poopsheet has reported that Kelly wanted a guarantee of a scholarship from UNC but UNC is out of scholarships unless they rescind one or someone leaves early? While it is highly probable that someone will leave early, it might fall short of the sort of guarantee the Kelly family is looking for?

I got that info from a UNC fan, so I hesitate to report it. But since the poopsheet is at least one step above pure fan speculation, and the fact that it helps us (or at least it hurts UNC which is good for us no matter where young Mr. Kelly chooses to go), I thought I'd pass it on. I'm interested to see if anyone else has read this info?

gotham devil
10-08-2008, 10:44 AM
Adam Zagoria (zagsblog.net) is reporting that Kelly will announce tomorrow at 6:00 PM on ESPNU.

http://www.zagsblog.net/2008/10/08/ryan-kelly-to-announce-thursday/

The full article

Bluedog
10-08-2008, 11:42 AM
Adam Zagoria (zagsblog.net) is reporting that Kelly will announce tomorrow at 6:00 PM on ESPNU.

I HATE (with all caps) press conferences of high school students announcing where they are going to college. Nothing against the students themselves, but I think it puts undue pressure and unfair expectations on them in the future (a la Lance Thomas) and is an unnecessary spectacle. They are just high school kids - although very talented ones. I can understand press conferences for turning pro or while they are pro. Having said that, hopefully Kelly announces that he's going to Duke!

Perhaps this has already been noted, but on an intial glance it seems that Kelly is a similar type of player to Mason Plumlee....Is that a fair assessment? Tall, lanky, perimeter oriented big men who need to improve their post defense, rebounding, and post moves (i.e. get more strength), but have strong dribbling abilities for PFs and nice mid-range (or even long-range) shooting.

SilkyJ
10-08-2008, 12:24 PM
^
"Perhaps this has already been noted, but on an intial glance it seems that Kelly is a similar type of player to Mason Plumlee....Is that a fair assessment? Tall, lanky, perimeter oriented big men who need to improve their post defense, rebounding, and post moves (i.e. get more strength), but have strong dribbling abilities for PFs and nice mid-range (or even long-range) shooting."

yes the comparisons have been made ad nauseum. But I think people with a better trained eye (not me) would say mason is a solid rebounder and post defender, definitely superior to kelly in that regard, and that kelly's offense is more well rounded, particularly his jumper.

BD80
10-08-2008, 12:46 PM
Adam Zagoria (zagsblog.net) is reporting that Kelly will announce tomorrow at 6:00 PM on ESPNU.

He's announcing without having taken an official visit to Duke? Hmmm.

If it is not Duke, I hope it is ND. I root for Brey, and it sounds like Ryan is a really good kid, and would get many of the advantages at ND that he would get at Duke.

budwom
10-08-2008, 12:51 PM
He's announcing without having taken an official visit to Duke? Hmmm.

If it is not Duke, I hope it is ND. I root for Brey, and it sounds like Ryan is a really good kid, and would get many of the advantages at ND that he would get at Duke.


I don't think there's any reason for him to make an official visit. It's not like he needs Duke to pay for plane tickets from Raleigh. He's visited Duke numerous times on his own dime, and knows what Duke offers. He may or may not choose Duke, but I don't think not taking an official visit has any bearing on the outcome.

jv001
10-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Maybe it will be tomorrow as reported, and I don't think his not taking an official to Duke will matter that much. What I wonder is how hard is Duke recruiting him? For some reason I don't think Coach K has recruited him as hard as he did some of the other players(Thornton, KB, Hairston, Plumlees). I may be wrong but just my take on the matter. I look for Kelly to pick ND and I hope he does not pick unc. Go Duke!

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-08-2008, 02:22 PM
Maybe it will be tomorrow as reported, and I don't think his not taking an official to Duke will matter that much. What I wonder is how hard is Duke recruiting him? For some reason I don't think Coach K has recruited him as hard as he did some of the other players(Thornton, KB, Hairston, Plumlees). I may be wrong but just my take on the matter. I look for Kelly to pick ND and I hope he does not pick unc. Go Duke!

What makes you think he hasn't been recruited as hard as others? I'm not saying I know any better but it sounds like a lot of supposition. Something tells me K and the rest of the coaches have far too little time to waste on a half-arsed effort with anyone. I would like to think they either go for it 100% or not at all. That doesn't mean they will necessarily use exactly the same tactics with every recruit. It probably varies based on the situation, timing, the recruit, etc. But different tactics or even tactics that are perceived as different shouldn't necessarily indicate a less than complete effort.

SilkyJ
10-08-2008, 02:25 PM
What makes you think he hasn't been recruited as hard as others? I'm not saying I know any better but it sounds like a lot of supposition. Something tells me K and the rest of the coaches have far too little time to waste on a half-arsed effort with anyone. I would like to think they either go for it 100% or not at all. That doesn't mean they will necessarily use exactly the same tactics with every recruit. It probably varies based on the situation, timing, the recruit, etc. But different tactics or even tactics that are perceived as different shouldn't necessarily indicate a less than complete effort.

I totally agree in principle. And I would add that given how frugal we are with our scholarships, I would imagine we key in on every single recruit we offer.

For some reason though, the above poster's comments just "feel" right...maybe b/c we seemed to get in the game late and were one of the last to offer...but you are right, that's all supposition. I'm sure we'll learn more over the next 28 hours...

watzone
10-08-2008, 04:18 PM
I can assure you that Duke wants Kelly and that they sort of recruited each other.

sandinmyshoes
10-08-2008, 05:48 PM
Some of the latest rumblings are making me very hopeful. And they're coming from UNC fans who appear to be writing off their chances altogether. But I keep trying to downplay expectations so I won't be disappointed and I have to wonder if they're doing the same. But Kelly would be a great fit on so many levels.

watzone
10-08-2008, 05:59 PM
UNC has been out IMO. I say we let the kid have his day 24 hours from now. We can wait that long. With a combo of academics and hoops, Duke is obviously in the thick of the race, again, IMO. The Irish have some good things too. It'll play out.

ehdg
10-08-2008, 07:05 PM
I can assure you that Duke wants Kelly and that they sort of recruited each other.

If I recall correctly didn't we get involved a bit late, or should I say slowly compared to some others. But as things evolved we got in heavy for him and he for us.

Ryan, we'd love to have you and hope you pick us, but if you don't all the best young man!!

BD80
10-08-2008, 07:20 PM
UNC has been out IMO. I say we let the kid have his day 24 hours from now. We can wait that long. With a combo of academics and hoops, Duke is obviously in the thick of the race, again, IMO. The Irish have some good things too. It'll play out.

Sounds like Wat knows but he won't tell!

Good luck to Ryan wherever he goes, but I truly hope he picks Duke!

Oriole Way
10-08-2008, 07:25 PM
Kurt O'Neill claims to have sources saying Kelly to Duke.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=thepit;pid=119664;d=this

skitelz
10-08-2008, 07:44 PM
ok, question...on the comments, one poster was discussing the recruitment of Paulus. He said that Greg committed to ND. Is this true? Is there a story behind this?I guess I never heard anything about this at the time.

SilkyJ
10-08-2008, 07:56 PM
ok, question...on the comments, one poster was discussing the recruitment of Paulus. He said that Greg committed to ND. Is this true? Is there a story behind this?I guess I never heard anything about this at the time.

thats certainly not how I remember it. IIRC, Notre Dame was leading the charge from the football recruitment standpoint, but Greg had publicly stated he wanted to play basketball in college not football. I think the general consensus was that if he changed his mind and wanted to play football, he was going to ND.

Oriole Way
10-08-2008, 08:01 PM
ok, question...on the comments, one poster was discussing the recruitment of Paulus. He said that Greg committed to ND. Is this true? Is there a story behind this?I guess I never heard anything about this at the time.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I recall someone mentioned rumors about Paulus apparently deciding on ND (similar to unconfirmed and erroneous reports such as Jared Jeffries to Duke, Ndudi Ebi to Duke, etc.), but obviously those were incorrect.

If a poster actually said Paulus committed to ND, then that poster is just painfully wrong.

SilkyJ
10-08-2008, 08:03 PM
^a poster did indeed say that.

I actually read through the comments and was a little disheartened to read so many negative comments about Duke. I really respect Notre Dame b/c I think they do things the right way and, like us, graduate student-athletes.