Another (albeit debatable) measure of program prestige

[Philadukie]

The Prestige rankings by ESPN were interesting. It made me, as probably many others, think of additional measures that should be included. One measure that I enjoy thinking about is all the amazing players to wear Duke uniforms over the last 24 years. In fact, I think we've had so many great players, that I would dare to say that we've had one of the top five players at a particular position (even though I know we don't always have "position players") of all schools over the period that ESPN analyzes.

In other words:

Hurley ranks in the top five PG's during this period. He's probably #1

Redick and Johnny Dawkins could both be included in the top five SG's

Grant Hill may likely be the #1 SF during this period (although he was asked to play multiple positions at times)

Battier is one of the top five PF

And both Brand and Laettner (if you consider him a C) are in the top 5 C's


Of course, it's difficult to state the top five players at a particular position during this period with any certainty because there are so many quantifiable and (unquantifiable) criteria. But that's what makes it fun.

So, who are your top five players at each position over the period examined by ESPN? I have to think about my rankings, since there are so many players to choose from. But I would venture that Duke is the only school with a strong case to have a player ranked in the top five at each position.

[barjwr]

(in alphabetical order)

Center
- Tim Duncan
- Patrick Ewing
- Christian Laettner
- Danny Manning
- Shaquille O'Neal

Power Forward
- Shane Battier
- Walter Berry
- Antawn Jamison
- Larry Johnson
- Raef LaFrentz

Small Forward
- Len Bias
- Calbert Cheaney
- Sean Elliott
- Grant Hill
- Lionel Simmons

Shooting Guard
- Steve Alford
- Johnny Dawkins
- Hersey Hawkins
- Chris Jackson
- Jim Jackson

Point Guard
- Kenny Anderson
- Bobby Hurley
- Allen Iverson
- Jason Kidd
- Jason Williams

[Classof06]

I don't know who I'd necessarily take out, but I think Glenn Robinson from Purdue has to be one of the best Small Forwards of this era. The Big Dog was a load to handle.

[Atldukie79]

The Big Dog was a load...except for Grant Hill!

[gw67]

Ferry remains one of the most underappreciated Blue Devil of all time. His career was much better than some of the small forwards and power forwards listed (twice POY in ACC and one-time POY nationally).

gw67

[Philadukie]

Nice list barjwr. Thanks for indulging.

It's more difficult than I initially thought. I might include David Robinson in the Center list (2669 pts, 1314 rebs). And Derrick Coleman was an absolute beast for the Orangemen at PF (2143 pts, 1537 rebs). Ferry was great too (2155 pts, 1003 rebs).

Not sure who'd I take out yet.

Also, this might be one of the most debatable inclusions/exclusions, but I just can't see not including Redick as one of the best SG's ever to play. Most career threes in NCAA, all-time ACC leading scorer. That has to put him in there.

[Philadukie]

I might also recant on Brand. Had he stayed longer (assuming his career continued like his Soph year), you'd have to. Despite his talent, there are many centers with better career numbers.

This brings up an interesting issue (to me anyway). There were clearly a number of players who had immense talent and, had they stayed, could be included. I MIGHT take Carmelo Anthony over Battier at the PF if building my dream college team; however, I think the question has to be more quantifiable than "the most talented" so let's limit it to those who stayed past their Soph years. Battier clearly had the better career (and many great intangibles like defense and leadership).

[DukeDude]

I like the list the barjwr was able to put out there. I would put Chris Mullin in for Calbert Cheaney at SF. I think he was the same year as Ewing. I think PF is the most debatable list. One could make a case for Coleman, Robinson, Ferry, and maybe even Stacey King. I'd say Larry Johnson is the only lock. Sadly, Hansbrough will probably be on some people's lists. Sherman Douglas could also make the point guard list.

[BobbyFan]

I tried to only include players whose entire careers fell within the time frame, although I made a convenient exception.

PG:
1. Gary Payton
2. Bobby Hurley
3. Jason Kidd
4. Jason Williams
5. Kenny Anderson

SG:
1. Johnny Dawkins
2. Jim Jackson
3. Ray Allen
4. JJ Redick
5. Chris Jackson

SF:
1. Grant Hill
2. Len Bias
3. Glenn Robinson
4. Danny Ferry
5. Sean Elliot

PF:
1. Danny Manning
2. Larry Johnson
3. Antawn Jamison
4. Shane Battier
5. Derrick Coleman

C:
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. Shaquille O' Neal
4. Christian Laettner
5. Alonzo Mourning

The frontcourt slots are loaded - I had to leave off Webber, Mashburn, Van Horn, Cheaney, Brand, and Camby.

[Edouble]

And both Brand and Laettner (if you consider him a C) are in the top 5 C's.

How could you not consider Laettner a center? He's 6'11'', 240-50 and he beat up on Shaq. I think that Brand is pretty far from a top 5 center during that period. Shaq, Laettner, Duncan, Ewing, 'Zo, and The Admiral are all clearly better to me. Brand would be down at a second tier level that would include guys like Rasheed, Collison, Oden, Camby, Hansblah, Okafur, Boozer, etc. We were very dominant in 1998-99, but Brand had an unbelievable supporting cast, and he wasn't always the game changer for us that year (i.e. St. John's game). Camby and Duncan were just as, if not more, dominant and didn't have near the support. I'm not sure that Kevin Love's freshman year was that far off from Brand's sophomore year.

I think Grant Hill at SF is the biggest lock of the era. I'm suprised not to see Ed O'Bannon mentioned yet, though.

For PG I might go with Hurley, Kenny, Bibby, Jason Williams, and Wayne Turner. Turner might be a little bold, but man did he have success in the NCAAs.

I have to think about the others.

[barjwr]

PF:
1. Danny Manning
2. Larry Johnson
3. Antawn Jamison
4. Shane Battier
5. Derrick Coleman

C:
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. Shaquille O' Neal
4. Christian Laettner
5. Alonzo Mourning


It was hard to keep David Robinson off my list, but I felt I had to in keeping Danny Manning a center--that really is where he played despite his transition to PF in the NBA. His back to the basket moves made Stacey King look silly in the '88 NCAA Championship game.

Appreciate all the discussion (and occasional DAP)!

[BobbyFan]

It was hard to keep David Robinson off my list, but I felt I had to in keeping Danny Manning a center--that really is where he played despite his transition to PF in the NBA. His back to the basket moves made Stacey King look silly in the '88 NCAA Championship game.(and occasional DAP)!

Didn't Manning play PF earlier in his Kansas career? Also, I don't think Manning played center as much due to it being his natural position as it was due to his team's circumstances. But regardless, he made his legacy as a center, so I'd have no problem with him at either slot.

[crimsonandblue]

Didn't Manning play PF earlier in his Kansas career? Also, I don't think Manning played center as much due to it being his natural position as it was due to his team's circumstances. But regardless, he made his legacy as a center, so I'd have no problem with him at either slot.

Manning played some four with Greg Dreiling at center on the '86 team. He also played alongside Chris Piper who was 6'8"-6'9" on the '88 team and Piper was certainly more limited and more of a center in what he did on the floor and with the ball (rebounding, defense, screening, occasional jumper and post plays).

I think you could call Manning either.

[Edouble]

This brings up an interesting issue (to me anyway). There were clearly a number of players who had immense talent and, had they stayed, could be included. I MIGHT take Carmelo Anthony over Battier at the PF if building my dream college team; however, I think the question has to be more quantifiable than "the most talented" so let's limit it to those who stayed past their Soph years. Battier clearly had the better career (and many great intangibles like defense and leadership).

It's a very interesting issue, and the intangible that Carmelo has that no other player in the modern history of the game has, is that he led a team with no other lottery picks to the National Championship as a freshman. I'm not sure if that will ever be done again. Oden had Conley, Durant had Agustine, Love had Westbrook, etc. and none of them could get it done.

Despite only playing one year, I could see an argument for Carmelo's inclusion on a top five PF list.