Shane's new teammate [Archive]

arydolphin

07-30-2008, 12:36 AM

This move definitely means that Shane will come off the bench. The only way he still starts is if they want to play Artest at the 4 with T-Mac and Shane at the 2 and the 3. I just don't think Artest is big enough to play the 4, and Houston will probably start Luis Scola (you'll see him on the Argentina team in the Olympics) alongside Yao Ming. It gives Houston a dependable 3rd scorer, which will come in handy when T-Mac and Yao (inevitably) get hurt, and it adds to the toughness of the Rockets. Good move for that team, even if it hurts Shane in the short term. Of course, you know that Shane will be in favor of whatever is best for the team, even if he has to come off the bench. Oh well, he can go for 6th man of the year!

hc5duke

07-30-2008, 12:57 AM

*barf*

I'm basing this solely on his past behavior issues - as a Rockets fan this is a horrible trade. I think the Rockets needed to trade for a better passing PG who can consistently shoot the 3... I guess there's still time for more trades.

gep

07-30-2008, 01:03 AM

I don't follow the NBA much... even the NBA trades more-so. Is it possible that Houston traded for Artest to use him as trade-bait for someone else? And that he's gone from Houston pretty quickly? I hope I'm not coming out of left-field... oh well...

ice-9

07-30-2008, 01:03 AM

It makes sense for Shane to come off the bench. He can play the 2, 3 and even the 4 if they decide go to small ball, so his versatility is ideal in the 6th man role.

Even with Artest in the starting lineup, I don't expect Shane's minutes to diminish.

Jumbo

07-30-2008, 01:06 AM

Shane's still going to play -- a lot. I could actually see Artest coming off the bench. He'd embrace the attention he'd get for that, actually is into those types of roles. Either way, both guys will get 30-plus minutes. Houston will play small a lot, especially since Shane and Artest can guard a lot of fours around the league. Heck, Shane played a lot of four the past couple of season without Artest. You may also see Houston go big with T-Mac, Artest and Shane at the 1-2-3 at times. But while Scola will get time at the four, Houston will want to spread the floor around Yao by going small. I guarantee you that Shane is on the floor with Artest, T-Mac and Yao to finish games, which is the most important thing. Fear not for Mr. Battier.

ice-9

07-30-2008, 01:49 AM

Hollinger wrote an article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=artestdeal-080730) saying he heard a rumor that Artest will play the 4.

If so, that will be one scary starting line-up.

Offense:
Yao will have four legitimate 3-point shooters in Alston, Battier, McGrady and Artest that he can pass out to; I don't see Yao getting doubled as much. Artest will get a mismatch every time on the perimeter. McGrady doesn't have to shoulder the responsibility of always initiating the offense.

Defense:
The Rockets were already one of the league's best defensive teams, and with Artest in the line-up it's going to be even scarier. The Rockets will absolutely be able to shut it down on the perimeter.

weezie

07-30-2008, 08:15 AM

There was a whole lot of chatter in Detroit that Artest was being considered by Dumars for the Pistons. A rather surreal consideration...but instead, it looks like the Pistons decided Kwame Brown is their man... another unfathomable decision, imo. :(

Devil07

07-30-2008, 03:41 PM

I'm with Jumbo on this one, I think this won't diminish Shane's role in the least. I fully expect to see both Artest and Battier on the floor at the end of games. And as anyone who followed the Rockets last year will agree, Shane played too much last year. He was worn down by the end. Although there's always the character risk associated with Artest, if you look at what the Rockets gave up (no one that was a major part of the team) then you have to really like the trade. The Rockets were not contenders as they were constructed. If they wanted to win with the TMac/Yao core they had to do something drastic to win now. I really like the move. If they can somehow strengthen the pg position then the Rockets should be (if healthy...) a top contender. As a Rockets fan I'm very excited. Low risk, high reward. Just my kind of deal.

Scoring Point

07-30-2008, 05:44 PM

Agree on Shane's role not really diminishing and this being a good move for the Rockets. They needed to do something dramatic to keep up in the uber competitive Western Conference, and this certainly seems to qualify. Artest may be crazy, but the dude can play, and together with Shane, gives the Rockets two very strong defenders to match up with opponents' 2s, 3s and 4s. Also, as mentioned previously, another guy who can stretch defenses to better open things up for Yao in the paint and for McGrady's slashing. Definitely a risk worth taking in my view.

juise

07-30-2008, 09:44 PM

Glad to hear that everyone is feeling upbeat about Shane's future in Houston. I agree with Jumbo that finishing the game is important, but I would still say that losing a starting slot and getting ~25% less playing time is a diminished role. I hope it works out for the best for Shane and the team.

On my way home from work today, the local (Portland) talk radio station was discussing the presence of two "starting" small forwards in Houston and how the Blazers could really use Battier. They were asking callers what they would be willing to give up for him. Host and callers alike were raving about what Shane brings to the table. Everyone called him a perfect fit in Portland. The consensus is that people would try to trade some combination of Travis Outlaw, Channing Frye and Martel Webster. I'm sure that Portland is not the only NBA city that dreams of landing Shane.

A-Tex Devil

07-30-2008, 11:08 PM

I love Shane, but he has not provided the 3rd offensive option the Rockets thought they might be getting when they traded for him 2 years ago. HIs defense has been phenomenal, but he passes up too many shots. Artest gives them that and takes shots away from Rafer which can't be a bad thing. Rafer proved himself to be a pretty darn good point guard (albeit not near the class of Paul, Williams, Nash) last year, but he shoots too much.

If McGrady and Yao stay healthy, they'll be pretty darn good, and teams are going to have a tough time scoring at the end of games against the Rockets next year. As people have mentioned, the end game lineup of the Rockets will likely include Artest, Battier and McGrady (who shut Nowitski down in the playoffs a few years back for a few games). That's scary good perimeter D.

The best part is, if Artest goes crazy, the Rockets really didn't give up much (at least not much that would help them in '08-'09).

Daryll Morey has been a really, really good GM thus far.

Edouble

07-31-2008, 01:07 AM

dukemomLA

07-31-2008, 03:06 AM

We also have to consider that Ron Artest will potentially be arrested for something before the season even starts. Anathema.

skitelz

07-31-2008, 02:02 PM

I think that Artest will play the four because he's big enough to guard most of them bulk-wise and it would also clear out the lane for Yao to do the dirty work.

It's a great trade if one can assume Artest will play the four because as someone already pointed out Houston gave up basically nothing for him and there won't be as many attitude problems as in the past because Artest LOVES Rick Adelman.

moonpie23

07-31-2008, 03:14 PM

thug artest will play about 20 games before he rips on the coach, yao, tracy, some guy in the stands........he's a punk.....talented? yes.....smart? like a hammer.

Exiled_Devil

07-31-2008, 04:57 PM

I love Battier, but...

I don't see how he won't have a dimisnished role if the Rockets are acquiring a player that plays his position and performs Shane's signature role (defense) as well as or better than he does in the first place. Artest immediately becomes the Rockets' third offensive option. Shane may have a better 3 point shot than Artest, but besides that Artest brings a lot to the table that will potentially knaw at Shane's playing time and shots taken.

How is Artest better defender than Shane? Shane was 2nd team defensive team for the NBA, and Artest wrangled 6 votes. I woudl take the coaches word on the defensive prowess of Shane - his story has been the same since before he graduated - under appreciated by the press, but a phenomenal player that the staff and team appreciates.

Shane won't lose minutes. He's too versatile and consistent a player.

Atlanta Duke

07-31-2008, 06:33 PM

Doesn't seem as if Yao is on board yet

"Hopefully, he's not fighting anymore and going after a guy in the stands," Yao said, according to the [Houston] Chronicle.

But Artest says not to worry

"I understand what Yao said, but I'm still ghetto," Artest said, according to the report. "That's not going to change. I'm never going to change my culture. Yao has played with a lot of black players, but I don't think he's ever played with a black player that really represents his culture as much as I represent my culture. Once Yao Ming gets to know me, he'll understand what I'm about.

"If you go back to the brawl, that's a culture issue right there," Artest added, according to the report. "Somebody was disrespecting me, so he's got to understand where I'm coming from. People that know me know that Ron Artest never changed."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3512419

BlueintheFace

07-31-2008, 07:29 PM

We also have to consider that Ron Artest will potentially be arrested for something before the season even starts. Anathema.

1) Artest may not be a great guy... hell, he might be an outright bad guy, but he has kept himself in check since the malice at the palace. He wants to make money.

hc5duke

*barf*

I'm basing this solely on his past behavior issues - as a Rockets fan this is a horrible trade. I think the Rockets needed to trade for a better passing PG who can consistently shoot the 3... I guess there's still time for more trades.

2) As a fellow Rockets fan, I completely understand the concern for the point guard position, but you have to admit. Houston with Bobby Jackson looked mediocre in the Utah series, while Houston with Rafer looked pretty darn good. Rafer really seems to be getting better and better at seeing the court and knocking down the three. He's not an all-star, but think about what other point guards out there are both available and better.

A-Tex Devil

I love Shane, but he has not provided the 3rd offensive option the Rockets thought they might be getting when they traded for him 2 years ago.

3) Shane has been exactly what Houston expected/ wanted out of him. A three point shooter and defensive stopper. He was never meant to be the third option, though he has been forced into it with problems at the point and PF position.

Moonpie23

thug artest will play about 20 games before he rips on the coach

4)False! Can you give me the name of the one coach in the NBA Artest loves above all others? If you guessed Rick Adelman, you are correct!

5) Artest has been brought in to play the four because he can defend the position better than Shane (and Hayes/Scola), while he poses a matchup problem on the offensive end. Shane will most likely be a very important sixth man now. Adelman will rotate Hayes, Scola, Artest, Battier, and Barry through the 3 and 4 positions. The way Adelman runs the offense, I imagine all of these players (except Barry) will move fluidly through these two spots.

6) Finally, Adande has a good article up on how Artest gives Houston some Grit. I TOTALLY agree with this. The closest thing Houston has to an "enforcer" or "bruiser" is Luis Scola, who doesn't like giving up layups but seems to enjoy racking up fouls. Houston is full of nice guys. Shane, Yao, and Tracy are some of the nicest well spoken players in the league. Now they need some gall and grit. As a Rockets fan, this is a risk, but one worth taking.

juise

07-31-2008, 07:36 PM

"If you go back to the brawl, that's a culture issue right there," Artest added, according to the report. "Somebody was disrespecting me, so he's got to understand where I'm coming from. People that know me know that Ron Artest never changed."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3512419

<Jerry Seinfeld's voice after listening to one of Kramer's schemes>

Oh yeah, this can't fail.

</Jerry Seinfeld's voice after listening to one of Kramer's schemes>

A-Tex Devil

08-01-2008, 04:45 PM

A-Tex Devil

3) Shane has been exactly what Houston expected/ wanted out of him. A three point shooter and defensive stopper. He was never meant to be the third option, though he has been forced into it with problems at the point and PF position.

I think on the defensive/intangibles end, I'd agree. But there were absolutely expectations of Shane stepping up more on the offensive end than he has. Shane, not Rafer, was supposed to be the 3rd offensive option when the Rockets acquired him (for a top 10 pick). That's not his bag, and that's fine. Shane is underappreciated in Houston as a whole, but the Rockets were looking/hoping for 15 pts a game from him when they acquired him two years ago.

In response to Exiled Devil --- Shane and Artest are each near the top of what they do. Shane isn't quite the lockdown defender that Artest is. Shane has his good matchups, like Kobe, but Artest is better at being a lock down guy on a wider arrange of opponents.

Shane is better than Artest at help defense, making up for other's mistakes and coordinating the team defense.

Someone else said it best -- you can pur Artest on the other teams best 2/3/4 now and let Shane coordinate the rest of the defense. It's going to be stifling. Please, please, please don't let Artest blow this with crazy.

sagegrouse

08-01-2008, 10:09 PM

Ron Artest is a nut case. IMHO (with the grouse the 'H' is always silent) Houston is crazy to waste any time on him -- unless they think they can win an NBA championship in the next year before he goes crazy again. I don't think they can -- and I don't think this was a wise trade.

Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen could control Dennis Rodman. But Rodman was crazy like a fox -- i.e., bizarre but not crazy. Artest is a whole nother thing.

sagegrouse

Edouble

08-01-2008, 11:34 PM

Artest went bonkers b/c someone attacked his vision and his livelihood when he was lying prone and vulnerable. A projectile thrown at the right angle could've blinded him. I'm sure everyone on this board would be quick to attack the Maryland fans that gave Nate James' family member a concussion by throwing a water bottle.

I don't think Artest should've gone into the crowd, but given the circumstance, I can understand why he did it. I personally don't think what he did was any worse than LJ or Ewing fathering like 12 kids or whatever.

Artest is not a model citizen like David Robinson or Battier, but he's a really good basketball player and it's completely understandable why Houston would covet his services. The NBA is a business and Artest is a very valuable employee.

hc5duke

08-02-2008, 04:36 AM

Artest went bonkers b/c someone attacked his vision and his livelihood when he was lying prone and vulnerable. A projectile thrown at the right angle could've blinded him. I'm sure everyone on this board would be quick to attack the Maryland fans that gave Nate James's family member a concussion by throwing a water bottle.

IIRC it was Boozer's family. And if a Duke player had gone into the stands and started swinging at Maryland students, I don't think many on DBR would defend the Duke player, regardless of who started what.

Also, while the Pistons fan's behavior was despicable, what instigated the incident? Artest's hard (intentional) foul on Ben Wallace, when the game was already decided [video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4637125146685574271)]. Artest "went bonkers" because of his cheap shot foul. Boozer's mom getting hit in the head wasn't caused by Boozer doing anything wrong - you can't compare these two situations at all.

What's worse (as a Rockets fan) is that his behavior hasn't improved - at all. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBx8LSwqRpE) is just 6 months ago.

sagegrouse

08-02-2008, 08:51 AM

The NBA is a business and Artest is a very valuable employee.

R-I-I-I-G-H-T! Rule number one in professional sports is that you do not go into the stands. So, we have a case of Ron Artest, hit with a plastic water bottle (this is not an attack with a deadly weapon), going into the stands to beat up a paying customer.

How many thousands of times has he sat through lectures on player behavior decorum? If this is a cultural thing, it is the Ron Artest culture because no one else acts that way.

I think the Houston assignment will not end well for either party.

sagegrouse

devildeac

08-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Boozer was doing something wrong (if you're a twerp fan:o). In fact, he was doing a couple things wrong. First, he was wearing a Duke uniform and the second was that we were beating the local favorites;):D.

BlueintheFace

08-02-2008, 10:08 AM

R-I-I-I-G-H-T! Rule number one in professional sports is that you do not go into the stands. So, we have a case of Ron Artest, hit with a plastic water bottle (this is not an attack with a deadly weapon), going into the stands to beat up a paying customer.

How many thousands of times has he sat through lectures on player behavior decorum? If this is a cultural thing, it is the Ron Artest culture because no one else acts that way.

I think the Houston assignment will not end well for either party.

sagegrouse

Here is a question that I want you to honestly ponder and answer--- How many players in the NBA would do what Artest did when hit by a water bottle. How many NBA players would defend themselves in those same circumstances?

I honestly believe it would be a good number of players. Half the Pacers team joined him after all. It wasn't assault with a deadly weapon, but it was certainly an assault and a very rare one. Count for me how many times a fan has hit a bball player on the court with a projectile during a game. This is not something that happens very often. These guys are professionals and the fans pay money to view the professionals, but when that relationship is broken in a violent way, anything is liable to happen. Yes Artest is a thug, but he isn't much worse than lots of other NBA players who surely would've reacted the same way.

...and hc5duke-- I agree that the Boozer situation is not in any ways comparable, but to say that the intentional foul at the end of a game instigated the whole incident is absolutely, incredibly ridiculous. The fan attacking Artest instigated the incident. You are blaming Artest for a fan hitting him in the head with a water bottle? Are you kidding? Intentional fouls happen all the time when the game is out of hand. Players simply do not want the other team dunking on them when the game is over (see- Henderson v Hanstravel-2007). When Artest committed the foul he did not throw any punches, or even react to Wallace going after him (he did not go bonkers towards anyone on the court). What did he do? He lay down on the scorers table and refused to get involved in the scuffle. So, to say that the foul instigated the incident is simply false.

As a fellow Rockets fan, I have to ask... what's the risk in this trade? Houston gave up almost nothing and has exited in the first round for almost a decade now. Two of their biggest needs are 1) a third scoring option and 2) some stinking grit and attitude. Worse comes to worse, Houston trades him away for what should be more value than they gave for him.

darthur

08-02-2008, 10:21 AM

Also, while the Pistons fan's behavior was despicable, what instigated the incident? Artest's hard (intentional) foul on Ben Wallace, when the game was already decided [video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4637125146685574271)]. Artest "went bonkers" because of his cheap shot foul. Boozer's mom getting hit in the head wasn't caused by Boozer doing anything wrong - you can't compare these two situations at all.

Artest did two things there.

1. He committed a hard foul in Wallace.
2. He charged the stands after getting pegged by a water bottle while lying on the scorer's table.

The second one is bad, very bad. He got suspended 55 games for it. But it was also an exceptional circumstance. Since Artest is unlikely to be put in that situation again, the better test for Houston's purposes is how Artest acts in more normal situations.

As for the hard foul, that *was* indicative of normal circumstances, but I think you are too quick to assume Indiana or Houston sees it as undesirable. Part of the deal with most (not all) lock-down defenders is they play dirty and get into their opponent's head. You may not like it, which is fair enough, but I do think it is effective for winning basketball games.

What's worse (as a Rockets fan) is that his behavior hasn't improved - at all. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBx8LSwqRpE) is just 6 months ago.

I watched that, and it was interesting. Artest was certainly being a jerk, but I will say it isn't clear to me he was hurting his team any. He still seemed to be playing well, he pretty clearly got into Matt Harpring's head, and while the Kings lost, they had no business winning at Utah anyway.

Edouble

08-02-2008, 11:29 AM

johnb

08-02-2008, 03:57 PM

IIRC it was Boozer's family.

I think it was Nate's.

devildeac

08-02-2008, 05:28 PM

I think it was Nate's.

It was Mrs. Boozer. I will relate a conversation I had with Mr. Boozer several years ago if you'd like that confirms my certainty. Nate's dad is a former military man and, IIRC, accompanied the team on occasion to twerpland and appeared to be in a "body guard" type role behind our bench.

sagegrouse

08-02-2008, 05:57 PM

Well then, rule number one as a paying customer is that you don't throw things at the players.

I doubt Artest has sat through THOUSANDS of lectures on player decorum.

If no one else acts that way, then why were other players involved that night? Why wasn't everyone just sitting on the bench watching Artest in the stands? Why didn't most of the players run up into the stands to bring Artest back down?

The guy did something inexcusable, but he was very strongly provoked. I feel like a lot of the posts on here are suggesting that he randomly went postal for no reason, and because of that he's a ticking time bomb and there's no telling when he will do something again. I don't think that's a fair assessment of what happened.

Here's a link that may be informative:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6575548/

It is hard to see how Artest was "strongly provoked." Duke grad Dan Abrams goes through the tape of the Auburn Hills incident frame by frame. he also apparently recounts over 20 other episodes involving Ron Artest on or off the court.

The gist of the Auburn Hills incident is that after a lamentable on-court brawl, Artest was lying on the scorer's table. He was hit by an EMPTY CUP. He got up and attacked a KID IN GLASSES who had clearly not thrown the cup. There was then a brawl involving another fan (who may have been the cup thrower). Without reviewing the tape, I remember that Pacer team-mates went into the stands to help out. This is NOT the same thing, and is certainly no justification for Artest's action.

I can't remember anything like this in NBA history, a league that has suffered at times from thuggery. However, Artest's history now has dozens of incidents. He is not a bad guy per se; at other times he has been very generous to his home commiunity.

My problem with Artest is not his bad behavior but that he is a mental case with some severe issues that have apparently not been addressed.

I think he is a timebomb, and I predict no good outcome in Houston.

sagegrouse
'Moreover, did you notice that Yao immediately called him out on behaving much better than in the past?'

BlueintheFace

08-02-2008, 06:25 PM

I think he is a timebomb, and I predict no good outcome in Houston.

sagegrouse

Sagegrouse,
The most important thing to remember is THIS 'AINT INDIANA. There is no Stephen Jackson... no Fred Jones... no team culture of thuggery, strip clubs, and fighting (even disregarding the palace). This is the HOUSTON ROCKETS sagegrouse. This is Yao Ming, Tracy Mcgrady, Shane Battier... the worst you can say about the players on the team is that Alston got in to a scuffle downtown last year, and you better believe he was remorseful and fined heavily for that incident by the team. It would be hard to find a more stable and wholesome team culture in the NBA than the Houston Rockets. Along those same lines, name for me one other team that gives back to the community more than the Rockets. Just watch some "NBA Cares" ads... it's almost laughable. Every single one seems to feature one of those three players (or all three). The Rockets have all sorts of stand-up guys and leadership... now all they need to do is get a little grit and attitude off the trade market for almost nothing... wait a minute...DONE!