Marching Band

[Acymetric]

Some of the posts in the Desmond Scott thread got me thinking, has there been any work on the Duke band program? We have a great pep band, but the marching band is just pitiful. My division III college with three thousand students had a better band (we actually had a pretty good one, and big too).

A good marching band is a big part of the "game day experience" that everyone talks about. Maybe they should accept outside volunteers...heck I'll be here for this season, I'll do it.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Some of the posts in the Desmond Scott thread got me thinking, has there been any work on the Duke band program? We have a great pep band, but the marching band is just pitiful. My division III college with three thousand students had a better band (we actually had a pretty good one, and big too).

A good marching band is a big part of the "game day experience" that everyone talks about. Maybe they should accept outside volunteers...heck I'll be here for this season, I'll do it.
Jeff Au, the director of the athletic bands, has been doing considerable work to improve the band now that he's allowed to recruit band members and have a band camp before classes start. The number of freshman who joined last year and return to the band this year is significantly higher than had been the case in the past.

The band program deteriorated from neglect that started in Allen Building and continued down through mid level management.... just as did the football program. Currently there is the beginning of support for a quality program at Duke.

[Duvall]

The band program deteriorated from neglect that started in Allen Building and continued down through mid level management.... just as did the football program. Currently there is the beginning of support for a quality program at Duke.

I would hope that the senior management of a world-class research university would have more important matters to deal with than the quality of the school's marching band.

[camcraz25]

I was a member of DUMB 1999-2003. In case you were not aware, the members of the marching band are the same as the members of the pep band. We were required to go to all home football games and at least two away games in order to play and travel during basketball season. Some of the lack of motivation/subpar performances of the band at football games most likely stemmed from the apathy related to the football team in general. We often said and thought, "Noone's going to be here to see the football team, so they won't see or care about us either." This might be changing with the new director, who I haven't met, but regardless, it will take a long time for a different attitude to descend through the band. We all knew we were there "for basketball," as that was more motivating than feeling good about a marching performance.

[hc5duke]

I was a member of DUMB 1999-2003. In case you were not aware, the members of the marching band are the same as the members of the pep band. We were required to go to all home football games and at least two away games in order to play and travel during basketball season. Some of the lack of motivation/subpar performances of the band at football games most likely stemmed from the apathy related to the football team in general. We often said and thought, "Noone's going to be here to see the football team, so they won't see or care about us either." This might be changing with the new director, who I haven't met, but regardless, it will take a long time for a different attitude to descend through the band. We all knew we were there "for basketball," as that was more motivating than feeling good about a marching performance.

Beat me to it Sarah :-p I'm guessing Acymetric's D3 college team has had more ten wins in the last decade or so. In my experience, whether it be high school or college, the quality of marching band almost always reflects the quality of football teams. It's exactly what Sarah mentioned about attitude and motivation. If nobody is watching and/or nobody cares if you're out of step at a show, would you really put up with an extra hour or two (or if you're in Texas, 10+ hours/wk) of practice? Especially for something you're not getting course credit for, and have no real reason to attend other than (for 99% of us) for the basketball season?

[CameronBornAndBred]

If nobody is watching and/or nobody cares if you're out of step at a show, would you really put up with an extra hour or two (or if you're in Texas 10+ hours/wk) of practice? Especially for something you're not getting course credit for, and have no real reason to attend other than (for 99% of us) for the basketball season?

Damn that's sad. I'm up there. I watch. But if you come on the field with that attitude, no wonder. Put some pride behind what you do, regardless of who you think is paying attention.

[hc5duke]

Damn that's sad. I'm up there. I watch. But if you come on the field with that attitude, no wonder. Put some pride behind what you do, regardless of who you think is paying attention.

Easier said than done... Especially in a group of 50-80 people coordinating things on a football field

[LetItBD08]

I thought the marching band was pretty entertaining the past couple of seasons. They got a little unorthodox with the whole Soulja Boy theme, but I thought it was kind of an appropriate shakeup. They got a great reception at Notre Dame Stadium after that performance if I remember correctly, and they know their marching in South Bend.

I wished the football coaching staff would have taken a page from the band's book and took some chances on the field.

[DukeUsul]

I was president of the marching/pep band back in 1999, my senior year. When I started in 1995, the band was large. Probably around 130 or more total members. While there has always been a core of dedicated members who put their all into the music and the marching, it seemed quite obvious to me early on that many were there to 1) party (RIP Gross, we shall miss you) and 2) get into basketball games without waiting in line. In those mid-90's days, we put a fairly large band on the field that could make quite a bit of noise - but our music wasn't very good and many lacked marching skills.

Should I go into the fact that there were people who just walked around holding instruments who had no idea how to play? Not many, but a few.

Over the course of my time there, those of us who took it seriously made a conscious effort to focus on quality over quantity. By the time I was Prez in 1999, we had enacted various rules to enforce attendance - including things like blocking people from getting into the Carolina bball game if they didn't have satisfactory attendance at football games (including away games - we usually required making one of two away trips).

Needless to say, we lost members. By my senior year we had dropped to a little bit over 100. But I think that year we put on a pretty high quality show.

I don't know a ton about what has happened since I graduated, but I have been a season ticket holder and have attended better than 85% of all home games since then - and I do watch the halftime show. It's obvious that numbers have continued to drop since I left. I would posit that there are a few reasons for this:
1) The band is in a similar cycle to the football team - it is not perceived to be a good band, so kids from high schools who want to go to schools with good bands go elsewhere
2) Football isn't much of a motivation - for kids who enjoy watching football, the lack of success of the football team has had (and the lack of excitement surrounding the program) provides no draw, unlike at other schools.
3) We've heard a lot about how Cameron has had some empty student seats in recent years - I wonder if it's easier to get into Cameron now, and thus getting into basketball games provides less of a draw than it did in the past. Just a supposition.

Additionally, the band has received limited support from the school. The previous director was part-time. Neil was also a band director at I believe a local middle school for many years. While we all loved Neil, and he put all of the energy he could into the program, the fact that the school couldn't spend money on a full time director meant that he had to spend all his time just getting music written, shows designed and a product on the field - with no time for promotion or recruiting.

Here's another example of the "support" we used to receive from the atheletic dept. We used to store our uniforms and instruments in the tunnel between Cameron and Card. Yup you heard that. In a mildewy, dank, hallway in the basement. There is now a room (yes, a real ROOM!) in the basement of Card dedicated to the band. How many years did it take for the band to get a room! Our old uniforms were just disgusting because of the conditions in which they were stored.

I've met the new director, Jeff, playing in the alumni band at the winter break games, and he seems a great person for the job. He seems very energetic, and interested in putting a good product out there. I don't know the answer to this - does anyone out there know? - but is he a full-time hire? I hope so. The fact that people are saying he's been given the ability to promote and recruit makes me hopeful that the athletic dept is giving him resources to get out there.

I think the product on the field has gotten better the last few years. I hope that the increase in quality, combined with more time being spent on recruiting will enable us to attract some more "five-star" recruits to the band.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I was president of the marching/pep band back in 1999, my senior year. When I started in 1995, the band was large. Probably around 130 or more total members. While there has always been a core of dedicated members who put their all into the music and the marching, it seemed quite obvious to me early on that many were there to 1) party (RIP Gross, we shall miss you) and 2) get into basketball games without waiting in line. In those mid-90's days, we put a fairly large band on the field that could make quite a bit of noise - but our music wasn't very good and many lacked marching skills.

Should I go into the fact that there were people who just walked around holding instruments who had no idea how to play? Not many, but a few.

Over the course of my time there, those of us who took it seriously made a conscious effort to focus on quality over quantity. By the time I was Prez in 1999, we had enacted various rules to enforce attendance - including things like blocking people from getting into the Carolina bball game if they didn't have satisfactory attendance at football games (including away games - we usually required making one of two away trips).

Needless to say, we lost members. By my senior year we had dropped to a little bit over 100. But I think that year we put on a pretty high quality show.

I don't know a ton about what has happened since I graduated, but I have been a season ticket holder and have attended better than 85% of all home games since then - and I do watch the halftime show. It's obvious that numbers have continued to drop since I left. I would posit that there are a few reasons for this:
1) The band is in a similar cycle to the football team - it is not perceived to be a good band, so kids from high schools who want to go to schools with good bands go elsewhere
2) Football isn't much of a motivation - for kids who enjoy watching football, the lack of success of the football team has had (and the lack of excitement surrounding the program) provides no draw, unlike at other schools.
3) We've heard a lot about how Cameron has had some empty student seats in recent years - I wonder if it's easier to get into Cameron now, and thus getting into basketball games provides less of a draw than it did in the past. Just a supposition.

Additionally, the band has received limited support from the school. The previous director was part-time. Neil was also a band director at I believe a local middle school for many years. While we all loved Neil, and he put all of the energy he could into the program, the fact that the school couldn't spend money on a full time director meant that he had to spend all his time just getting music written, shows designed and a product on the field - with no time for promotion or recruiting.

Here's another example of the "support" we used to receive from the atheletic dept. We used to store our uniforms and instruments in the tunnel between Cameron and Card. Yup you heard that. In a mildewy, dank, hallway in the basement. There is now a room (yes, a real ROOM!) in the basement of Card dedicated to the band. How many years did it take for the band to get a room! Our old uniforms were just disgusting because of the conditions in which they were stored.

I've met the new director, Jeff, playing in the alumni band at the winter break games, and he seems a great person for the job. He seems very energetic, and interested in putting a good product out there. I don't know the answer to this - does anyone out there know? - but is he a full-time hire? I hope so. The fact that people are saying he's been given the ability to promote and recruit makes me hopeful that the athletic dept is giving him resources to get out there.

I think the product on the field has gotten better the last few years. I hope that the increase in quality, combined with more time being spent on recruiting will enable us to attract some more "five-star" recruits to the band.

Your summary of what's gone on with the band over the past decade to decade and a half is well written. I've been in touch with Jeff frequently over the course of the past few years and believe he can make a difference in the quality of experience students in the band have while at Duke..... and he can make a difference in how the band contributes to the game day experience. Just as the football program had a proud history in the past, so did the marching band.... it's fame wasn't in its numbers but rather in its style. And it doesn't hurt that Coach Cutcliffe has let it be known that he wants the band to be successful.

I'm one of those diehard fans who came for the games (30+ years) and the band's performance! As we look ahead to the Carolina game in November, one of my concerns is that most of the students in the band will go home for Thanksgiving break. DukeUsul, has there been any sort of discussion for an alumni band for that game?

[DukeUsul]

Your summary of what's gone on with the band over the past decade to decade and a half is well written. I've been in touch with Jeff frequently over the course of the past few years and believe he can make a difference in the quality of experience students in the band have while at Duke..... and he can make a difference in how the band contributes to the game day experience. Just as the football program had a proud history in the past, so did the marching band.... it's fame wasn't in its numbers but rather in its style. And it doesn't hurt that Coach Cutcliffe has let it be known that he wants the band to be successful.

I'm one of those diehard fans who came for the games (30+ years) and the band's performance! As we look ahead to the Carolina game in November, one of my concerns is that most of the students in the band will go home for Thanksgiving break. DukeUsul, has there been any sort of discussion for an alumni band for that game?

I do think Jeff has been doing a great job. Last year he invited alumni to go play as a pep band at the game in Chapel Hill, I would fully expect he'll extend the invitation for this year's home game.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I do think Jeff has been doing a great job. Last year he invited alumni to go play as a pep band at the game in Chapel Hill, I would fully expect he'll extend the invitation for this year's home game.
Wonderful!!! I'll bet they'll play my favorite song!

[PumpkinFunk]

I'm a current member of DUMB (Class of 2011) who can try to answer questions on a more non-official level.

First, to answer the Carolina band question: It's an alumni band. I'm definitely coming back, I did for last year when it was away. I have to say, I wish that we were doing a full band, since I think that the Carolina game is by far the most important game of the season. If you go to the band alumni site, you should be able to get some more info about it.

In terms of changes, I know that Jeff is finally settling in, and a lot of changes are coming because of the new football coaching regime and the serious overhaul of things within Athletics (DUMB is under the Athletics Dept, not Music) due to football. Last season, we had a pre-school band camp, and we are having early move-in this year for both freshman and upperclassmen. In terms of the music... Jeff has a certain style that he prefers. He likes our shows to be music that is about a year or less old - something I know a lot of people would prefer that to be changed, but we work with it.

Like someone said earlier, there's really 2 reasons to join DUMB, neither of which are football. I love what the college football atmosphere can be like, but Duke is nothing like it. The social things (RIP Gross Bus) and getting into basketball games are by far the major reasons to join, and unless our football team is getting to the level where we get national attention and go to bowl games, I don't foresee that changing.

I hope that over my remaining 3 years, I can see a change - the marching band is definitely an important part of the whole football experience - but not one which hurts why I love it. We're a smaller group, and pretty tight-knit, and as we get bigger, that goes, as does the guarantee to be in pep band. Right now, though, we're pretty sure to remain fairly small. We got a lot of freshman last year, but there is always a large amount of attrition (I believe we're losing at least 20-25% of the people in my class)

[bludev03]

No one pays attention to them at football games, because they aren't entertaining. Now, if you want to see a show, go to A&T, NCCU, or Norfolk State. But of course, that's the sole reason why people go to the football games - to watch the band.

Basketball pep band is decent, but not the best. Again, not nearly as entertaining as a HBCU....

[Atldukie79]

I have posted before on this subject. I played in the band from 75-79 and my son is in the band now. I also have worked with and traveled with our high school band program for 9 years (200 marchers, nationally competitive)...yes, I'm a band geek!

Several comments: The '70s version of the band reflected the times...slack, laid back, non-conformist ( I mean, plaid pants, white turtle necks and beanie caps for marching???) We had fun, we supported the football and basketball teams. Tom Butters assumed the AD job during my tenure and made a big deal out of changing us into a traditional band...new unis,made us actually march in step...

The current version of the Duke band is doing a great job given their size and the amount of time they spend preparing a show. Our friends in the SEC schools have try outs and cuts (and scholarships!!)for marching bands. The "Redcoats" of UGA march 400+. Student tickets to football games are hard to get. There is a huge incentive to play in the band and perform well.

BTW, I don't think the weeks of summer practice and 4 nights a week during school that are required of the high school kids will ever be a popular idea at Duke.

As pointed out from others, I think the general apathy throughout the football program has affected the band program. I am convinced that the administration wants to improve the overall football environment...and this includes the band. I had a conversation with Mike Cragg regarding the band. He is seeking ideas to improve the program. I suggested that they need to "recruit" from the new freshmen before they arrive on campus, and find ways to make it fun and rewarding to be in the band (like feed them, water them, take more trips like the one to ND last year)

Anyway, I enjoy their shows and look forward to continued improvement.

[bludevl96]

Just curious... does the band now march at the football games? Way back in my day (the mid-90's), they simply strolled onto the field, stood in place, played a feeble song and then strolled off. No marching. No energy.

With that said, it appears from earlier posts that the administration didn't help the situation by making band members second class citizens. i couldn't agree more that the band is an integral part of the college football scene. I certainly hope Cut reinvigorates the entire program...band included.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Just curious... does the band now march at the football games? Way back in my day (the mid-90's), they simply strolled onto the field, stood in place, played a feeble song and then strolled off. No marching. No energy.

With that said, it appears from earlier posts that the administration didn't help the situation by making band members second class citizens. i couldn't agree more that the band is an integral part of the college football scene. I certainly hope Cut reinvigorates the entire program...band included.

Believe it or not, there was a time when the Duke band was admired by many. They were known for a style of marching based on double time. It was exciting! The Duke Marching Band has never been as large as those of most of the schools Duke plays, but at least through the Sixties, it was viable and was an integral part of game days. It was wonderful to hear the cadence of the drumline as they approached the stadium. The excitement generated as the band marched down into the concourse was a precursor to the excitement on the field. When it was time for the band to go out on to the field, they came out through the tunnel running..... that double time marching they were known for.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

No one pays attention to them at football games, because they aren't entertaining. Now, if you want to see a show, go to A&T, NCCU, or Norfolk State. But of course, that's the sole reason why people go to the football games - to watch the band.

Basketball pep band is decent, but not the best. Again, not nearly as entertaining as a HBCU....

What about Florida A&M?

Another entertaining band to watch and listen to is the Show Band of the Southwest, the Texas Longhorn Band. My personal favorite is the Golden Band from Tigerland, LSU!

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Believe it or not, there was a time when the Duke band was admired by many. They were known for a style of marching based on double time. It was exciting! The Duke Marching Band has never been as large as those of most of the schools Duke plays, but at least through the Sixties, it was viable and was an integral part of game days. It was wonderful to hear the cadence of the drumline as they approached the stadium. The excitement generated as the band marched down into the concourse was a precursor to the excitement on the field. When it was time for the band to go out on to the field, they came out through the tunnel running..... that double time marching they were known for.

Thanks D in BD - I was in DUMB in the late 60s and I thought we were actually quite decent. We were creative and could actually march and play at the same time. One of my favorites was a game at Annapolis where we formed a sailing ship and played "Anchors aweigh". The middies all stood and cheered - at which point the ship went nose down and sank to become a wavy sea.


The '70s version of the band reflected the times...slack, laid back, non-conformist ( I mean, plaid pants, white turtle necks and beanie caps for marching???) We had fun, we supported the football and basketball teams. Tom Butters assumed the AD job during my tenure and made a big deal out of changing us into a traditional band...new unis,made us actually march in step....

That is interesting because in the late 60s we had very traditional marching band uniforms - right down to plumed Shakos. In those days, the basketball pep band wore striped seersucker blazers and skimmers. We also always came running on court right through the vistors' warm-up drills.



Here's another example of the "support" we used to receive from the atheletic dept. We used to store our uniforms and instruments in the tunnel between Cameron and Card. Yup you heard that. In a mildewy, dank, hallway in the basement. There is now a room (yes, a real ROOM!) in the basement of Card dedicated to the band. How many years did it take for the band to get a room! Our old uniforms were just disgusting because of the conditions in which they were stored.

That is also interesting because in the 1960s we had a storeroom in Card (I was equipment manager during my senior year and spent a fair amount of time in that room). I don't know why or how you were exiled.

Jim

[hc5duke]

No one pays attention to them at football games, because they aren't entertaining. Now, if you want to see a show, go to A&T, NCCU, or Norfolk State. But of course, that's the sole reason why people go to the football games - to watch the band.
Black schools have different style of bands that doesn't fit/is not suitable for DUMB, but I'm sure you fully understand this and you're just trolling.

Basketball pep band is decent, but not the best. Again, not nearly as entertaining as a HBCU....
Sounds great, go watch the game there.

[bludev03]

What about Florida A&M?

The Marching 100 (FAMU) is overrated and not the best. The Legion (Norfolk State), The Human Jukebox (Southern), and Grambling are all better than the Marching 100. The Marching Machine (A&T) was one of the best, but the new chancellor and downgraded them a bit, but they are on the rise again.
The Force (Hampton), Bison Express (Howard), The Sound Machine (NCCU), and the Trojan Explosion (Virginia State) are good, but they dont have the numbers and aren't as big as the top, elite bands...

[bludev03]

Black schools have different style of bands that doesn't fit/is not suitable for DUMB, but I'm sure you fully understand this and you're just trolling.

Sounds great, go watch the game there.

I. Yes, they are all about show and entertainment. The running joke is that at black schools, the bands work and practice harder than the football teams...
Part of the excitement is their ability to work the crowds, get everybody hyped, play the newest, hottest music, the dancing, plus the trash talking and competition between the bands...

II. Well, the basketball isn't that great, but it's a social event at the basketball games. You may see a fashion show at halftime. ...You have the frats and sororities party walking around the gym...The cheerleaders going back and forth at each other...The trash talking between the fans....The DJ at the game....The fashion people are rockin...
It's a fun/party atmosphere. If you haven't experienced it, you gotta do it! It's very entertaining and exciting...

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Thanks D in BD - I was in DUMB in the late 60s and I thought we were actually quite decent. We were creative and could actually march and play at the same time. One of my favorites was a game at Annapolis where we formed a sailing ship and played "Anchors aweigh". The middies all stood and cheered - at which point the ship went nose down and sank to become a wavy sea.

That is interesting because in the late 60s we had very traditional marching band uniforms - right down to plumed Shakos. In those days, the basketball pep band wore striped seersucker blazers and skimmers. We also always came running on court right through the vistors' warm-up drills.

That is also interesting because in the 1960s we had a storeroom in Card (I was equipment manager during my senior year and spent a fair amount of time in that room). I don't know why or how you were exiled.
Jim
Some of the changes no doubt followed being moved from the music department to the athletic department where there was no one to champion their cause. I've learned in recent years that the most common organization pattern for many college and universities likely does place the marching band in the athletic department.

I loved the marching bands old uniforms and the clever halftime shows. I'd say the Duke band of that era was more clever than either the UVA band or the SMU band, both known for their clever irreverent routines and antics.

This football season if you want to sit near the band (and the rest of the students for that matter), ask for seats in Section 24. The students and band will be in sections 20-23. I think it's time to show some support and encouragement to a group of students whose efforts tend to be unappreciated. Jeff Au is working to increase the numbers of members who stick with the program. At some point, they're going to need new uniforms, not an inexpensive line item in the budget. I hope there are other fans of the band who will step up at that time and contribute to the purchase of new uniforms.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I would hope that the senior management of a world-class research university would have more important matters to deal with than the quality of the school's marching band.
I agree with what you've said but would expand on it.

Management in an organization has a number of key responsibilities. One is oversight of programs and general operations. A truly great organization espouses excellence across the board in its endeavors. When the stewardship of resources falls below minimum or generally accepted standards,for example storing band instruments in a tunnel, then management is not providing appropriate oversight.

I also see management having an important role in facilitating the healthy functioning of whatever programs are conducted by the organization. Not allowing the band director to gave access to students to recruit those who might be interested in the band makes no sense in any context. Not allowing band camp to prepare for their performances, when this is a common practice for bands at high schools and colleges, is also shortsighted.

Lastly, as important as research is to any outstanding university, the university itself exists primarily because of the students. As disappointing and embarrassing as people have described the band program, I look beyond that to what the experience does to or for the students. Students who are willing to participate in an activity such as band deserve a better experience than some of the band members have described in this thread.

[barjwr]

In reading the posts so far, I haven't seen reference to another issue that severely compromised the quality of DUMB when I was there (1994-97): there were essentially NO music majors that participated. We barely had any music majors in the Wind Symphony, let alone DUMB. Therefore, the musicianship suffered. And as has been mentioned before, Neil was serving several masters, including DUMB, the middle school, his graduate degree, and his wife's failing health.

I would also admit that we were much more self-serving then as well (a pour on the grave of the Gross Bus and "In the Halls"); the ideas for the shows (except for the annual HS band day when we all played military marches) came from us, and we were basically trying to amuse ourselves more than anything (e.g. the Pulp Fiction show, the Michael Jackson HIStory show).

Granted, there was incentive to entertain ourselves, as there wasn't much happening on the field (save the 1994-95 miracle season) to keep our attention. I think our scatter-drill FG kicking percentage was better than that of the team (Heather Sue included), with one notable block by juiced-up trombone players (not one of them passed the urine test).

[Highlander]

I think our scatter-drill FG kicking percentage was better than that of the team (Heather Sue included), with one notable block by juiced-up trombone players (not one of them passed the urine test).

As one of the trombones involved in that play, I can confirm that we would've passed the urine test. The trumpets were (and are) just sore that we sniffed out their pitiful fake kick attempt and left cheesehead with grass stains on his uniform for the rest of pregame.

Thanks for bringing a smile to my face...

[DU82]

This football season if you want to sit near the band (and the rest of the students for that matter), ask for seats in Section 24. The students and band will be in sections 20-23. I think it's time to show some support and encouragement to a group of students whose efforts tend to be unappreciated. Jeff Au is working to increase the numbers of members who stick with the program. At some point, they're going to need new uniforms, not an inexpensive line item in the budget. I hope there are other fans of the band who will step up at that time and contribute to the purchase of new uniforms.

Who can we thank for moving the band and students back to the HOME side of the stadium, where they belong?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Who can we thank for moving the band and students back to the HOME side of the stadium, where they belong?
Coach Cutcliffe asked that the students and band be moved back to the home side.