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speedevil
07-21-2008, 11:19 PM
i not trying to knock on these players, i love these guys, but just a thought:
what does these players have in common?

paulus, dockery, nelson, ewing, langdon, redick.

all of these guys where high school all americans, supurb players in high school, and 4 year players in college, but they all have a flaw that doesnt translate well going into the nba.
i think coach k recruits these players so he can develop them, not just for the nba but beyond basketball.

brevity
07-21-2008, 11:36 PM
what does these players have in common?

paulus, dockery, nelson, ewing, langdon, redick.

1. They're all written in lower case, but at least spelled correctly.
2. They're all guards, perhaps undersized for the pros.
3. Each is one-sixth of a lousy sample size.

I've never figured out why NBA superiority is a criterion for college hoops bragging rights. I understand that it can be a nice bonus, and high school recruits certainly want to hear nice things about their league potential.

But set aside the Olympics, and you'll notice that coaching NBA players is not part of Coach K's job description. He has an eye not just for talent but also character, and for the most part has helped give us a large group of degreed young men that have not been public embarrassments.

Okay, I've reread your post and am still searching for your point.

Edouble
07-21-2008, 11:44 PM
i not trying to knock on these players, i love these guys, but just a thought:
what does these players have in common?

paulus, dockery, nelson, ewing, langdon, redick.

all of these guys where high school all americans, supurb players in high school, and 4 year players in college, but they all have a flaw that doesnt translate well going into the nba.
i think coach k recruits these players so he can develop them, not just for the nba but beyond basketball.

Anyone who plays in the ACC was a superb player in high school.

Your post gives the impression that you think that most people think that every Duke recruit is a high schooler that Coach K wants to make into an NBA player. I don't think most people think that. Coach K recruits guys that he thinks can be good to great college players, can represent Duke well, and that he wants to develop a relationship with. He's not being paid to develop guys for the pros. Everyone knows that, c'mon.

Uncle Drew
07-22-2008, 12:31 AM
Anyone who plays in the ACC was a superb player in high school.

Your post gives the impression that you think that most people think that every Duke recruit is a high schooler that Coach K wants to make into an NBA player. I don't think most people think that. Coach K recruits guys that he thinks can be good to great college players, can represent Duke well, and that he wants to develop a relationship with. He's not being paid to develop guys for the pros. Everyone knows that, c'mon.

I agree that Coach K often recuits a player that fits the Duke mold or into his system. And when you make a statement that he isn't being paid to develop guys for the pros you're right. I do think however in today's me first generation making it to the NBA and reeling in NBA money is the top focus on your average recruit......especially a top 25 recruit. Now there are exceptions to the rule, JJ was a top 25 guy and I think he would have played for Duke until time to draw social security if he could. But those are a rarity. It's kind of a catch 22 situation. Your average recruit at a Division II school or non big time program realizes the odds of him making it to the NBA are slim to none. I dare say their top priority is to actually graduate in a field they want to work in the rest of their lives. How often do you see a top 25 guy pick a school because it has a subject he wants to major in?

And while I get the point of the initial post, a great high school player doesn't always equate to a great college player. You could make an even longer list (from Duke alone) of great college players that weren't great pros. The catch 22 part is fans / coaches want quick, tall, athletic players who can shoot. But the odds are if they are already all of the above they most likely aren't going to stay past a year or two. Even when you get an NBA level talent with an upside they believe their own press clippings and don't want to stick around and improve like they should. (i.e. McRoberts) I could be wrong but it seems the trend has gone from inking with a school that can get you deep into the NCAA tournament to signing with a school that can highlight YOUR game to be noticed by NBA scouts. Granted Duke being on TV all the time will have appeal to recruits. But I have actually wondered lately if Duke's misses on big men has anything to do with perhaps not being highlighted in a guard oriented offense. Probably not, but I have yet to figure out why big men A, B & C chose to attend elsewhere.

UNC fans and coaches crow all the time about how many NBA guys they have, and if you don't think that's a HUGE recruiting tool you're crazy. But unlike most coaches in America I think K promises nothing and tells recruits they have to earn whatever they get from Duke. It sounds great in theory, even something to be proud of but I wonder how much the 1 or 2 and done guys want to hear it.

jv001
07-22-2008, 08:27 AM
But I have actually wondered lately if Duke's misses on big men has anything to do with perhaps not being highlighted in a guard oriented offense. Probably not, but I have yet to figure out why big men A, B & C chose to attend elsewhere.

I have wondered about this as well. It could be that Duke's big men never reach the potential we expect. This could be from lack of talent or lack of development. Personally I don't know. But we seem to miss on the "big men" in recruiting.

JasonEvans
07-22-2008, 09:13 PM
I have wondered about this as well. It could be that Duke's big men never reach the potential we expect. This could be from lack of talent or lack of development. Personally I don't know. But we seem to miss on the "big men" in recruiting.

If this was only the 10th or 20th time I had heard this fallacy, I would probably spend some time explaining to you the litany of fallacies and errors in the few short sentences you wrote above.

But, it is late and I have been through this same conversation on these boards so many times it is just not worth it any more. I would simply say that anyone who thinks Duke has missed on an inordinate number of big men or failed to develop big men into pros is either not paying attention or has problems separating fact from opinion.

--Jason "do some research and then tell me how many top 25 PFs and Cs we have signed in this decade... then tell me we are missing on big men" Evans

wilko
07-22-2008, 09:28 PM
Maybe our recent recruiting whiffs are possibly due to the Lacrosse issue.
Perhaps the negativity of the whole thing left a lingering impact in the minds of recruits.

Now that its been positively and satisfactorily resolved and some distance is being put from the event, recruiting is on the upswing.

It probably helps to have football publically and actively stumping to make it seem even more distant.

Bluedog
07-22-2008, 09:52 PM
Our recruiting has been quite amazing over the last 5-10 years. I don't know how anybody could possibly think Duke is slipping. And while it is true that many successful college players at Duke have somewhat disappointing in the NBA, this is not unique to Duke. The NBA is a LOT tougher than college and any other college has just as many disappointments. Right now with Battier, Boozer, Maggette, Deng, Dunleavy - that's a pretty solid list of players from one school and you'd be hard-pressed to find a better one. Only UNC and UConn come close (or are slightly better), frankly. Let's take a look at this recent "recruiting trend" based on scout.com team rankings (I can only find the last four years; also, note that quantity is more important than quality sometimes, so a drop in rankings sometimes just indicates there weren't that many scholarships offered):
http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&cfg=bb&c=14&yr=2005

2008: 3 commits, 13th
2007: 3 commits, 6th
2006: 4 commits, 4th
2005: 5 commits, 2nd

Looks pretty solid to me. Let's compare this to three other programs with great success over the last 4 years (a span where we have unfortunately not gotten past the Sweet Sixteen): UCLA, Florida, and UNC.

2008 UCLA: 5 commits, 1st
Florida: 5 commits, 9th
UNC: 4 commits, 5th
2007 UCLA: 2 commits, 12th
Florida: 5 commits, 3rd
UNC: Not ranked
2006 UCLA: 3 commits, 21st
Florida: 4 commits, 22nd
UNC: 6 commits, 1st
2005 UCLA: 5 commits, 13th
Florida: 4 commits, 21st
UNC: 5 commits, 4th

So, among the four we ranked 4th in 2008, 2nd in 2007, 2nd in 2006, and 1st in 2005. Seems like our recruiting is pretty good when comparing to a team that has gotten to four straight final fours, a team that has won two national titles in the last four years, and another okay team as well....

mo.st.dukie
07-22-2008, 11:32 PM
Our recruiting has been quite amazing over the last 5-10 years. I don't know how anybody could possibly think Duke is slipping. And while it is true that many successful college players at Duke have somewhat disappointing in the NBA, this is not unique to Duke. The NBA is a LOT tougher than college and any other college has just as many disappointments. Right now with Battier, Boozer, Maggette, Deng, Dunleavy - that's a pretty solid list of players from one school and you'd be hard-pressed to find a better one. Only UNC and UConn come close (or are slightly better), frankly. Let's take a look at this recent "recruiting trend" based on scout.com team rankings (I can only find the last four years; also, note that quantity is more important than quality sometimes, so a drop in rankings sometimes just indicates there weren't that many scholarships offered):
http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&cfg=bb&c=14&yr=2005

2008: 3 commits, 13th
2007: 3 commits, 6th
2006: 4 commits, 4th
2005: 5 commits, 2nd

Looks pretty solid to me. Let's compare this to three other programs with great success over the last 4 years (a span where we have unfortunately not gotten past the Sweet Sixteen): UCLA, Florida, and UNC.

2008 UCLA: 5 commits, 1st
Florida: 5 commits, 9th
UNC: 4 commits, 5th
2007 UCLA: 2 commits, 12th
Florida: 5 commits, 3rd
UNC: Not ranked
2006 UCLA: 3 commits, 21st
Florida: 4 commits, 22nd
UNC: 6 commits, 1st
2005 UCLA: 5 commits, 13th
Florida: 4 commits, 21st
UNC: 5 commits, 4th

So, among the four we ranked 4th in 2008, 2nd in 2007, 2nd in 2006, and 1st in 2005. Seems like our recruiting is pretty good when comparing to a team that has gotten to four straight final fours, a team that has won two national titles in the last four years, and another okay team as well....

Yes, but if you'll notice that great 2005 class, which were juniors this year, only had two players still on the team, one of which was injured all year. That class killed us the last two years,even if McRoberts leaving after his 2nd year was destined to happen, imagine if we had just kept Boateng and Boykin, that's two fairly big guys who probably couldn't be any worse than Zoubek and Thomas and would've helped on this years team. Aside from Paulus,that class was a disappointment, at least Greg has Duke in his heart and works hard every day for the program. Compare that with UNC's 05 class which anchors their team and is still 100% intact for their senior year, and UCLA's 05 class of Collison, Aboya, Mbah a Moute (leaving), and Roll. That 2005 class was really not good to Duke.

SupaDave
07-23-2008, 11:15 AM
i not trying to knock on these players, i love these guys, but just a thought:
what does these players have in common?

paulus, dockery, nelson, ewing, langdon, redick.

all of these guys where high school all americans, supurb players in high school, and 4 year players in college, but they all have a flaw that doesnt translate well going into the nba.
i think coach k recruits these players so he can develop them, not just for the nba but beyond basketball.

I'm with Jason. This post is so totally random. Go back to the drawing board please.

This post is like saying Chris Corchiani and Rodney Monroe were horrible recruits for N.C. State.

This post is like saying Sean Singletary is the worst guard in Virginia history.

This post is like saying that Ed Cota and Joe Forte should have been good pros.

This post is like Kenny Anderson, Brian Oliver, Jarret Jack, and Travis Best should have been ALL-Stars.

This post is like saying Bob Sura didn't like it at Florida State. Even better - this post is like saying Sam Cassell was highly recruited.

This post is like saying Randolph Childress should have been a better pro than Mugsey Bogues.

Wait - actually this post is saying nothing!!

You name all guards - show me ANY school with more than 5 starting guards in the NBA and I'll be pretty impressed. 5 forwards or centers for that matter.

Duke is in the TOP THREE of players in the NBA. What more do you want!!!!!?