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mph
07-21-2008, 09:42 PM
ESPN is ranking the prestige of every Division 1 basketball program since the tournament went to 64 teams. Today they released 50 down to 41 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481014). Here's the point system they're using for the rankings.


• National title … 25
• Title game loss … 20
• National semifinal loss … 15
• Elite Eight loss … 10
• Best record in conference's regular season … 5
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5
• Sweet 16 loss … 5
• Conference tournament title … 3
• AP first-team All-American … 3
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2
• NIT title … 2
• AP second-team All-American … 2
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1
• NCAA tournament berth … 1
• Postseason NIT berth … 1
• AP third-team All-American … 1
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … -2
• Losing season … -3
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3

Someone with more time than me could figure this out with precision, but just looking at the top four point categories, we should be hard to beat.

3 titles = 75
4 Final Games = 80
3 Final Fours = 45
1 Elite Eight = 10

The 210 points we earn in these categories should be the most of any school by a reasonable margin. Is there any school that could make up the deficit by beating us in the other categories?

dubayuw
07-21-2008, 09:48 PM
There's no way DUKE won't be number 1, consider that in the time they're looking at, 1984-85 until now, a total of 24 years, DUKE has been in:
10 Final Fours
7 titles games, winning three (Kansas is next with 4 title games, five other teams have two titles in this time)
9 seasons with 30+ wins (11 season with 20-29 wins)
10 Conference tournaments and
11 Regular season championships
Not to mention the 1st, 2nd and 3rd team All-Americans.

It wont even be close........

crimsondevil
07-21-2008, 11:48 PM
There's no way DUKE won't be number 1

Don't worry, ESPN will find some way to subtract 200 points from Duke for getting all the calls :rolleyes:

But really, who will be #2-5? The 'Holes, I guess, followed by UK? That one might be close. Then Kansas or UCLA?

brevity
07-22-2008, 12:24 AM
ACC
52. North Carolina State
T-70. Boston College
T-70. Virginia
T-111. Clemson
128. Florida State
T-145. Miami (Fla.)
T-210. Virginia Tech

Their complete breakdown can be found here (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481843); scroll down halfway for a listing by conference. This of course tells us that Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, and Maryland will join Duke and UNC in the top 50 (40, actually).

If I were to guess, I'd say that the top 5 would be Duke, Kansas, UNC, Michigan State, and UCLA. (I don't think Florida would crack this group; Kentucky might.) I'm not sure of the exact order, but Duke would be hard to beat because no one else has 3 championships in that era, and very few teams have as many conference regular season titles or 30-win seasons.

dukebluelemur
07-22-2008, 02:32 AM
I found it a bit interesting that, while duke seems to be bound for #1, the team K came from, Army, is tied for dead last.

I dont know if theres anything to take from that or that its just an interesting coincidence.

MChambers
07-22-2008, 07:34 AM
I found it a bit interesting that, while duke seems to be bound for #1, the team K came from, Army, is tied for dead last.

I dont know if theres anything to take from that or that its just an interesting coincidence.

Because Coach K left Army and came to Duke.

TriGuy
07-22-2008, 09:14 AM
If I were to guess, I'd say that the top 5 would be Duke, Kansas, UNC, Michigan State, and UCLA. (I don't think Florida would crack this group; Kentucky might.)

I'd have to say that Connecticut might be in position to crack the top 5 . . . maybe even 'zona. Strikes me that MSU (and maybe UCLA) were too up-and-down during those 23 years.

It'll be intersting to see the top 10.

yancem
07-22-2008, 09:21 AM
Their complete breakdown can be found here (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481843); scroll down halfway for a listing by conference. This of course tells us that Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, and Maryland will join Duke and UNC in the top 50 (40, actually).

If I were to guess, I'd say that the top 5 would be Duke, Kansas, UNC, Michigan State, and UCLA. (I don't think Florida would crack this group; Kentucky might.) I'm not sure of the exact order, but Duke would be hard to beat because no one else has 3 championships in that era, and very few teams have as many conference regular season titles or 30-win seasons.

UConn will be up near the top as well since they have two championships, multiple conference championships, all-americans and top draft picks. What is going to hurt them is the lack of other final fours. Even still they could beat out Michigan Sate or Florida. Also, with regard to Florida, don't forget that they had a trip to the final four in the 90's to go along with their 2 NC's. Kentucky has two NC's plus a finals loss and at least 1 final 8 loss. I think that 4-7 will be interesting.

KShip21
07-22-2008, 10:08 AM
Anyone have a definite team to throw in the #10 spot? My top 10 in no particular order (except #1) is:

Duke
unc
uk
florida
kansas
uconn
ucla
zona
mich state
indiana/maryland/cuse/gtown/louisville....????

UncleBill
07-22-2008, 11:11 AM
I've done minimal research and small crunching to get a loose total of 460 points, but it'll go up, I'm sure. Tough to find who made AP 3rd Team All American in 2002.

National title … 25 x 3
• Title game loss … 20 x 4
• National semifinal loss … 15 x 3
• Elite Eight loss … 10 x 1
• Best record in conference's regular season … 5 x 11
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5 x 9
• Sweet 16 loss … 5 x 6
• Conference tournament title … 3 x 10
• AP first-team All-American … 3 x 8
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3 x 2
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2 x 5
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2 x 0
• NIT title … 2 x 0
• AP second-team All-American … 2 x 6
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1 x 11
• NCAA tournament berth … 1 x 22
• Postseason NIT berth … 1 x 0
• AP third-team All-American … 1 x 5
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … -2 x 0
• Losing season … -3 x 0
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3 x 0

pfrduke
07-22-2008, 11:15 AM
• Losing season … -3 x 0

We do have a pretty notable (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/standings/1995) one of those.

gw67
07-22-2008, 11:39 AM
Charlie Board has All America teams through 2002. That year, JWill made 1st team; Dunleavy made 2nd team; and Boozer made 3rd team for AP.

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/national/awards/All-American

gw67

monkey
07-22-2008, 12:13 PM
Player in top 10 of NBA draft 2 x 5


Ok, I'll contribute - this number isn't all that close - there were eleven Duke players drafted from 84-85 to present.

Here's the Duke top ten draftees since 84-85 (per Wikipedia)
Dawkins (1986, 10th pick, Spurs)
Ferry (1989, 2nd pick, Clippers)
Laettner (1992, 3rd pick, Timberwolves)
Hurley (1993, 7th pick, Kings)
Hill (1994, 3rd pick, Pistons)
Brand (1999, 1st pick, Bulls)
Battier (2001, 6th pick, Grizzlies)
J Williams (2002, 2nd pick, Bulls)
Dunleavy (2002, 3rd pick, Warriors)
Deng (2004, 6th pick, Suns then traded to Bulls on draft day)
S Williams (2006, 5th pick, Hawks)

- note: no soup for the Chief, Trajan, Maggette, Avery or Redick who were all picked in the 11-15 range

brevity
07-22-2008, 12:13 PM
UConn will be up near the top as well since they have two championships, multiple conference championships, all-americans and top draft picks. What is going to hurt them is the lack of other final fours. Even still they could beat out Michigan Sate or Florida. Also, with regard to Florida, don't forget that they had a trip to the final four in the 90's to go along with their 2 NC's. Kentucky has two NC's plus a finals loss and at least 1 final 8 loss. I think that 4-7 will be interesting.

Sadly, or maybe not, I didn't even give Connecticut much consideration -- I hesitate to say they never crossed my mind. (Have they fallen that far?)

While I also look forward to see who's ranked #4-7, the entire top 10 could be educational. I'm really not sure who's number 2. Of the schools with 1 or 2 championships, some Final Fours, and a bunch of NBA players, what will separate them are those conference championships, both in the regular season and the tournament. I think UNC has a distinct disadvantage here, when compared to pre-NCAA tournament overachievers like Kansas (in the weaker Big 8 or 12).

I would very much enjoy it if Roy Williams' efforts put the Jayhawks over the top (for 2nd, I mean).

P.S. Will Gonzaga crack the top 20?

UncleBill
07-22-2008, 12:57 PM
We do have a pretty notable (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/standings/1995) one of those. Gee, thanks. I had blocked that from my memory. Back to therapy I go!

hurleyfor3
07-22-2008, 02:28 PM
Hmmm, a fun summer diversion to tell all us smug fans of elite programs what we already know.

UConn will score poorly. The scoring system is strongly biased towards making the Final Four -- one Final Four awards the same number of points as does FIVE conference tournament championships. And UCrapp has all of two FFs.

Also, the program was a cipher before 1990, during a period (1986-89) when Duke racked up 50 points just from Final Fours (20+15+15). That's as many as UCrapp's TOTAL Final Four points! I'll bet if you took away all Duke's post-1989 Final Fours, scoring them as Final Eight losses, Duke would still score higher overall.

How much to weight the Final Four is obviously a judgement call, but one flaw in the scoring system is a program gets more points for making the Nit (one) than for making the NCAA but losing to a low seed (1 - 2 = -1). They give the Nit waaaaaay too much cred.

gw67
07-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Teams 31-40 have been identified and Wake is 38 and Georgia Tech is 33.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3491747

gw67

KShip21
07-22-2008, 05:48 PM
Exactly...I think the name UConn (minus one "n") speaks for itself. I wonder if the women's basktball team still carries laptops? Ok, back to the topic of the board......

RainingThrees
07-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Teams 30 through 21 just came out. The list includes Maryland and the Utah Utes?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493497

RP_McMurphy
07-23-2008, 01:46 PM
How high Utah might have been if it hadn't for Kentucky. Kentucky beat 'em in the 93, 96, 97, 98, 03 and 05 NCAA tournaments. Tis Rupp's revenge for being the first team to beat Kentucky in Rupp Arena in 1976.

brevity
07-23-2008, 10:02 PM
Teams 30 through 21 just came out. The list includes Maryland and the Utah Utes?

It also includes Florida at #21. So much for the top 10 theory.

Once again, it looks like major conference programs with bunches of conference titles (regular season and tournament) will be at the top. I can't even think of 20 programs that could be ranked higher than Florida right now. Candidates like Michigan, Purdue, Ohio State, and Stanford are here in the 20s.

Oh, and Gonzaga is #26.

RainingThrees
07-23-2008, 10:12 PM
Temple will be in the top 20 which shows the flaw in the scoring system. That flaw being that there is no added weight to playing in a tougher conference. So if you win the ACC you get as much points as winning the Patriot league.

barjwr
07-24-2008, 08:26 AM
These are the 20 teams left to be ranked:

ACC: Duke, UNC
Atlantic 10: Xavier, Temple
Big XII: KU, OU, OSU
Big EAST: UConn, Syracuse, G'Town, Cincinnati, Louisville
Big Ten: Indiana, MSU
Conference USA: Memphis
Mountain West: UNLV
Pac-10: AZ, UCLA
SEC: UK, Arkansas

(My count was initially 22, but Western Michigan and NCA&T weren't listed in their respective conference lists of the 51-300; freaked me out a little at first to think they had made the top 20).

First blush ranking (NC's):
1. Duke (3)
2. UNC (2)
3. UK (2)
4. KU (2)
5. UCLA (1)
6. UConn (2)
7. AZ (1)
8. MSU (1)
9. Syracuse (1)
10. Arkansas (1)
11. Louisville (1)
12. Georgetown (1)
13. Indiana (1)
14. UNLV (1)
15. Oklahoma
16. Memphis
17. Oklahoma State
18. Cincinnati
19. Xavier
20. Temple

(I know UConn has more NC's, but UCLA has more FF's and I can stand them just a little more.)

Discuss.

brevity
07-24-2008, 10:15 AM
Good detective work. I can't believe I didn't think of the school in my own backyard. In that era, UNLV had 3 Final Fours and 17 Big West titles (10 regular season, 7 tournament) before joining the MWC in 1996.

Similarly, Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis benefit from winning those Metro and Great Midwest conference titles back in the day. And don't forget about Arkansas in the Southwest Conference.

barjwr
07-24-2008, 11:22 AM
These are the 20 teams left to be ranked:

ACC: Duke, UNC
Atlantic 10: Xavier, Temple
Big XII: KU, OU, Texas
Big EAST: UConn, Syracuse, G'Town, Cincinnati, Louisville
Big Ten: Indiana, MSU
Conference USA: Memphis
Mountain West: UNLV
Pac-10: AZ, UCLA
SEC: UK, Arkansas

First blush ranking (NC's):
1. Duke (3)
2. UNC (2)
3. UK (2)
4. KU (2)
5. UCLA (1)
6. UConn (2)
7. AZ (1)
8. MSU (1)
9. Syracuse (1)
10. Arkansas (1)
11. Louisville (1)
12. Georgetown
13. Indiana (1)
14. UNLV (1)
15. Oklahoma
16. Memphis
17. Texas
18. Cincinnati
19. Xavier
20. Temple


Sorry - screwed the pooch and typed Oklahoma State when I meant Texas, but it didn't change my mind on the rankings.

juise
07-24-2008, 12:52 PM
Not bad. You had 8 of the top 10. Actual ranking in bold.




First blush ranking (NC's):
1. Duke (3)
2. UNC (2)
3. UK (2)
4. KU (2)
5. UCLA (1)
6. UConn (2)
7. AZ (1)
8. MSU (1) - 11
9. Syracuse (1)
10. Arkansas (1) - 15
11. Louisville (1) - 16
12. Georgetown
13. Indiana (1) - 13
14. UNLV (1)
15. Oklahoma - 12
16. Memphis - 14
17. Texas - 18
18. Cincinnati - 19
19. Xavier - 17
20. Temple - 20

barjwr
07-25-2008, 10:28 AM
Upon further review, I think these might play out something like this:

1. Duke
2. UK
3. KU
4. UNC
5. UCLA
6. UConn
7. Arizona
8. Syracuse
9. Georgetown
10. UNLV

Had to move UNC down when I thought about all the SEC and Big 8/XII championships UK and KU will have, especially compared to the ACC titles (or lack thereof) for UNC.

mph
07-25-2008, 11:57 AM
The final ten have been released. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3501739)

1. Duke 538
2. UNC 454
3. Kansas 450
4. Kentucky 378
5. Arizona 338
6. UConn 292
7. UCLA 272
8. UNLV 239
9. Syracuse 238
10. GTown 230


Did you know? By any measure of success, Duke is king of the hill in college basketball in the 64-team era of the NCAA tournament. Besides the three national titles, Duke is No. 1 among all basketball programs with 69 NCAA tournament wins, 12 first team All-Americans, 11 top-10 NBA picks, 10 No. 1 seeds and seven title game appearances. An easy selection in any format for No. 1.

BlueDevilBaby
07-25-2008, 12:17 PM
UNLV in the top ten? Apart from 2 good years, what am I missing?

Bluedog
07-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Yeah, I'm also surprised that UNLV is #8. The 30-win seasons, multiple NBA draft picks must help....

Why do they keep mentioning how many No. 1 seeds teams have as a "positive"? It doesn't seem to be in the criteria as adding points....unless I'm missing something.

Wow, we completely dominated with those numbers. If in 91, 92, and 2001 we made the Elite 8 instead of winning the championship, and we made only 3 Final Fours instead of 10 (losing in the Elite 8), we'd still be ahead of UNC even though we'd have zero national championships and only 3 final four appearances....although that would affect the 20 and 30-win seasons, which I didn't take into account...

note that ESPN screwed up and gave us only 8 30-win seasons.....we have 9: 1986, '91, '92, '98, '99, '01, '02, '04, '06

billybreen
07-25-2008, 01:11 PM
We're Number One! We're Number One!

RainingThrees
07-25-2008, 01:15 PM
ESPN is asking fans to vote and Carolina is ahead right now. That has got to change!

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=162

Acymetric
07-25-2008, 01:19 PM
ESPN is asking fans to vote and Carolina is ahead right now. That has got to change!

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=162

The disparity between #1 votes is huge! We have 600+ and UNC has around 300. Interesting that they're still ahead of us (just barely).

Son of Mojo
07-25-2008, 01:38 PM
Having trouble understanding that myself--I've voted a few times and, being objective, have had unc in the top 10 each time with us being # 1 each time. I can't follow how we could have so many # 1 votes and not be leading unless some people are really hating and putting us at # 25 or so.

Indoor66
07-25-2008, 02:20 PM
Having trouble understanding that myself--I've voted a few times and, being objective, have had unc in the top 10 each time with us being # 1 each time. I can't follow how we could have so many # 1 votes and not be leading unless some people are really hating and putting us at # 25 or so.

You only have to rank 5 to have the vte recorded.

RainingThrees
07-25-2008, 02:38 PM
It is strange how Duke has 1374 first place votes and Carolina has 741 but the holes are still ahead.

brevity
07-25-2008, 04:20 PM
2. UNC 454
3. Kansas 450

If Kansas beats Rhode Island in round 2 of the 1998 NCAA tournament, they're #2 in this ranking. They could even lose to Valpo in the Sweet 16.

Dadgum it, Roy.

Lauderdevil
07-25-2008, 05:28 PM
It is strange how Duke has 1374 first place votes and Carolina has 741 but the holes are still ahead.

I suspect the Carolina fans are not ranking Duke at all, or putting us at 25 -- while it may be the more even-tempered Dukies are ranking Carolina at least in the top 5.

hurleyfor3
07-25-2008, 05:31 PM
Kansas now has more points than Carolina, 455 for ku vs. 454 for unc. The text now alludes to a #2 ranking for ku, but as of this minute unc is still listed second behind us. Who's doing the tabulation here, Bill Daley? Christine Gregoire?

slower
07-25-2008, 05:51 PM
Kansas now has more points than Carolina, 455 for ku vs. 454 for unc. The text now alludes to a #2 ranking for ku, but as of this minute unc is still listed second behind us. Who's doing the tabulation here, Bill Daley? Christine Gregoire?

Sounds more like a Katherine Harris or Diebold election theft.

sagegrouse
07-25-2008, 06:22 PM
Kansas now has more points than Carolina, 455 for ku vs. 454 for unc. The text now alludes to a #2 ranking for ku, but as of this minute unc is still listed second behind us. Who's doing the tabulation here, Bill Daley? Christine Gregoire?

Antonin Scalia? Karl Rove?

sagegrouse

mgtr
07-25-2008, 07:31 PM
I have it on good authority that the counting is being done by Barack Obama -- who can possibly question that?

wallyman
07-26-2008, 12:02 AM
they re-tabulated and ku is now #2 and holes #3.
fine with me.

mph
07-26-2008, 12:28 AM
Kansas now has more points than Carolina, 455 for ku vs. 454 for unc. The text now alludes to a #2 ranking for ku, but as of this minute unc is still listed second behind us. Who's doing the tabulation here, Bill Daley? Christine Gregoire?

Apparently the late returns are still coming in. Kansas is now listed as #2 with 455, but Carolina lost 6 points, dropping them to 448. I like the trend. By this time tomorrow, Carolina should be outside of the top five. :D

barjwr
07-26-2008, 08:28 AM
"Correction: In a July 25 story about the most prestigious college basketball programs since 1984-85, some facts for Kansas and North Carolina were incorrectly tabulated by the ESPN research department. The correct numbers for KU's conference titles and UNC's number of All-Americans resulted in Kansas switching places with North Carolina and it moved the Jayhawks from No. 3 in the overall rankings to No. 2 and dropped the Tar Heels from No. 2 to No. 3."

--ESPN.com

(makes you wonder about the rest of the results, doesn't it?)

devildeac
07-26-2008, 09:53 AM
Having trouble understanding that myself--I've voted a few times and, being objective, have had unc in the top 10 each time with us being # 1 each time. I can't follow how we could have so many # 1 votes and not be leading unless some people are really hating and putting us at # 25 or so.

That's EXACTLY what I did with my top 25 with Duke at #1 and unc at #25. And I'll do it again and again, as long as the poll is skew-able:D:D.

devildeac
07-26-2008, 09:56 AM
"Correction: In a July 25 story about the most prestigious college basketball programs since 1984-85, some facts for Kansas and North Carolina were incorrectly tabulated by the ESPN research department. The correct numbers for KU's conference titles and UNC's number of All-Americans resulted in Kansas switching places with North Carolina and it moved the Jayhawks from No. 3 in the overall rankings to No. 2 and dropped the Tar Heels from No. 2 to No. 3."

--ESPN.com

(makes you wonder about the rest of the results, doesn't it?)

Just saw the final rankings and learned of the changes. BWAHAHAHA. Time for a status check or is it too early:D?

mph
07-26-2008, 10:30 AM
For those still skewing the espn poll, Carolina keeps pulling away (~5,500 point spread) even though we keep increasing our margin in first place votes (3000-1770). Kansas is now only 1100 points behind us even though we have more than 2400 first place votes than they do.

msdukie
07-26-2008, 10:06 PM
I had to e-mail ESPN.com to get us our extra 5 points for NINE 30+ win seasons instead of the eight they listed. They sent me an e-mail back saying they are looking into it....

moonpie23
07-26-2008, 11:41 PM
after this past final four game, kansas owns unc outright untill such time as they meet and unc wins HANDILY in the final four or better....

RainingThrees
07-27-2008, 12:17 AM
I think Stuart Scott is sabatoging the ranking system. And is it just me or is ESPN doing a lot of these stupid competitions? Like Who's Now, and Titletown. This one was okay because there was a way to score the teams and it didn't rely on the biased opinions of fans.

hurleyfor3
07-29-2008, 09:47 AM
I think Stuart Scott is sabatoging the ranking system. And is it just me or is ESPN doing a lot of these stupid competitions? Like Who's Now, and Titletown. This one was okay because there was a way to score the teams and it didn't rely on the biased opinions of fans.

Unfortunately for espn, however, it *did* rely on math.

skitelz
07-29-2008, 11:51 AM
Unfortunately, it also required them to be able to count.