Pessimism and the Value of McRoberts

[Buckeye Devil]

Having a pessimistic outlook for next year must mean that one had a very high opinion of Josh McRoberts and his potential impact, i.e. that he would have been the difference maker in 2007-08, perhaps getting the Devils to say the Elite 8. How many who already have a negative appproach to next year really thought that he was a great player this year? Granted it would have been worse without him and I doubt that Duke would have made the NCAA tournament period.

However, he was not the impact player of say, Elton Brand or Jayson Williams.
And the cupboard is hardly bare. Maybe Duke's frosh this year did not make the impact of a UNC or Ohio State. They also didn't have the surrounding cast either. They will be better next year and at least 3 quality players are coming in and maybe 4 if PP commits. It's ridiculous to put the pressure on poor Singler to carry this team before he ever gets to Duke. He won't have to do it alone. Sure, they will struggle at times next year because they will still be pretty young. But don't throw in the towel before practice starts. Josh
will be missed in some ways, but the talent will be there and it will develop. Give it a little more time.

[ohioguy2]

We Buckeye's are in agreement on this one. This is not the worst thing that could happen. I just hope that the lose of Josh leads us to play more conservative perimeter defense next year. I know, I know--great defensive team, etc., but without a shot block presence such as Williams or Josh we probably need to contain more than pressure.

[imagepro]

that we probably would not have made the NCAA without Josh. While never a real superstar, he sure was solid. I know, his shot was flat, and he failed to finish at some crucial times, but look at what he DID do. Pretty mcuh everything. I know I said this before, but it's worth saying again. He was ball handler, assist maker, shot blocker, rebounder and scorer. Yes, occasionally he struggled offensively, but he still played tough defense and was tenacious on the glass.

Watching games on TV is often better than watching a game in person. Yet, when there, seeing things that TV can't show, you could see how hard Josh fought. Often with guys much bigger than he. I don't mean just in height, but weight and strength as well. He was a battler. Much more than some realize.

You are right, we will be ok without him. But I for one can't help but think, how good would we have been next year WITH him. I think his stock would have grown higher had he stayed. Better players around him would HAD to have made Josh better. He had a LOT of pressure on him this year. More than any of us know.

I know he was much criticized here, and all across Blue Devil nation, but I for one will surely wonder.. What could have been?

And to Josh McRoberts-- Good luck young man, and thanks for the memories....

[jimhaughton]

Coach K's apparently knowing Mc Roberts' intent to go pro after this year, begs the question, "Why didn't coach give the "other big guy" more playing time?" Or am I being naive? His defense looked promising, but it is a given that he needs much improvement on the offensive end, e.g. footwork.I don't believe he ever played more than 3 or 4 minutes in a conference game, if he got in at all! Experience. Experience. How are you supposed to get it? Thank you.

[Clipsfan]

Coach K's apparently knowing Mc Roberts' intent to go pro after this year, begs the question, "Why didn't coach give the "other big guy" more playing time?" Or am I being naive? His defense looked promising, but it is a given that he needs much improvement on the offensive end, e.g. footwork.I don't believe he ever played more than 3 or 4 minutes in a conference game, if he got in at all! Experience. Experience. How are you supposed to get it? Thank you.

I don't know if you're fishing, given that this is your first post and you don't even name Zoubek, but there has obviously been quite a bit of discussion about this on the board. The simple answer is that his body just isn't mature enough for the low post in the ACC. I'm sure that he'll continue to put on muscle/mass and that he'll be able to hold his own better next year, which we will all look forward to seeing. He has some solid fundamentals, it's just a matter of not getting bullied.

[jimhaughton]

While posting I had a mental block re: Zoubek's name Sorry.

[Buckeye Devil]

that we probably would not have made the NCAA without Josh. While never a real superstar, he sure was solid. I know, his shot was flat, and he failed to finish at some crucial times, but look at what he DID do. Pretty mcuh everything. I know I said this before, but it's worth saying again. He was ball handler, assist maker, shot blocker, rebounder and scorer. Yes, occasionally he struggled offensively, but he still played tough defense and was tenacious on the glass.

Watching games on TV is often better than watching a game in person. Yet, when there, seeing things that TV can't show, you could see how hard Josh fought. Often with guys much bigger than he. I don't mean just in height, but weight and strength as well. He was a battler. Much more than some realize.

You are right, we will be ok without him. But I for one can't help but think, how good would we have been next year WITH him. I think his stock would have grown higher had he stayed. Better players around him would HAD to have made Josh better. He had a LOT of pressure on him this year. More than any of us know.

I know he was much criticized here, and all across Blue Devil nation, but I for one will surely wonder.. What could have been?

And to Josh McRoberts-- Good luck young man, and thanks for the memories....

It was interesting to hear Jay Bilas on ESPN Radio today talk about this and he essentially said that Josh should have stayed another year, improved his game, let Oden, Duran, and others leave this year, and be a higher pick in the '08 draft. He said that Josh would be a pro for several years to come but it was anything but a ringing endorsement of his early departure and game.

[mgtr]

I think Jay Bilas is pretty smart, and I agree with his analysis of Josh. I don't believe at all that we will be dead in the water without him next year, but I don't him making any big impact in the NBA anytime soon, either.

[mapei]

Josh didn't make us a top-10 team, but I'm not sure we would have been even a top-30 team (if we were) without him. I think he was our best player this year, and I don't think #2 was close.

Zoubek didn't look anywhere close to ready for prime time, and I think the jury is out on whether he ever can be. He looks extremely awkward to me, fumbles the ball, and travels. But some of those things were also true of Roy Hibbert as a freshman, and he's become outstanding. Fortunately, Georgetown plays a style that is suited to his strengths.

If I were Josh, I would stay only if it were fun to do so, and I don't think much about this team was fun this year, at least during the second half of the season. I don't blame him for taking advantage of an alternative.

[elvis14]

Although I at times loved Josh's game (like when he was dominating games in the middle of the season with great all around play...IMHO) and I'll miss watching him progress with this teammates, I am NOT pessimistic about next season. Heck, I'm geeked. Yes, we lose Josh, that's the bad. The good is that Greg, Jon, DeMarcus, Gerald, Brian, Marty, David, Lance all come back better. Plus we add Nolan, King, and Singler. It's not like we are just taking our current team and removing Josh. All 8 returning guys are going be better. Singler is a stud. Smith is a needed backup for Greg and I hear King can really shoot the 3. Plus we still have a chance at getting Patrick Patterson. Pessimistic, not me.

Without Patterson, Josh's minutes go to Brian, Lance, David. All showed strength's and weaknesses this year. Brian played really good defense against Hansblahblah. David was our best player in some games with his hustle, touches, smart play. Lance is really quick for a big man and once he starts to use that quickness, he's going to be great. I'm not point out the weaknesses, we know what they are and I'm pretty sure they are all going to work hard on those weaknesses.

We are going to be good and we are going to be deep. It's not only going to be fun in a similar way to this year, it's going to be better because they are going to win more and be really good by this time next year. Oh yeah, and GH is going to be fantastic. I can't wait! Pessimism be d@mned.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I am curious, given that Coach K apparently knew before the season started that Josh was planning to leave after the season ended, is it possible he DIDN'T try to convince him to come back next year? I am wondering if the chemistry issues on the team and the chance for Josh to go to the Association as a high pick were enough for Coach K to say, "Josh, you and us are better off with you leaving." I am only curious because it seems, and I have no way of knowing, that Josh looked unhappy through a lot of the season. I know, I know lots of people who "have played college sports before" will tell me these kids are not supposed to necessarily have fun playing their sport, but I think if one is having fun one plays better. I don't think this team had much fun at all and a part of me wonders if it stemmed partly from Josh's unhappiness.

GO DUKE!

[ChrisP]

Hi,

I am curious, given that Coach K apparently knew before the season started that Josh was planning to leave after the season ended, is it possible he DIDN'T try to convince him to come back next year? I am wondering if the chemistry issues on the team and the chance for Josh to go to the Association as a high pick were enough for Coach K to say, "Josh, you and us are better off with you leaving." I am only curious because it seems, and I have no way of knowing, that Josh looked unhappy through a lot of the season. I know, I know lots of people who "have played college sports before" will tell me these kids are not supposed to necessarily have fun playing their sport, but I think if one is having fun one plays better. I don't think this team had much fun at all and a part of me wonders if it stemmed partly from Josh's unhappiness.

GO DUKE!

I said right after the VCU loss that I felt that there was something wrong with this team - something beyond a lot of youth and inexperience and players hampered by injuries. I agree that, at least for the last 1/2-1/3 of the season, the guys didn't look happy out on the court. This will probably get interpreted as sour grapes on my part, but I for one, will not miss Josh's petulant on-court behavior when things didn't go his way. I still maintain that the chemistry on this team was NOT good. I have no inside knowledge, of course, only years of watching college b-ball and a "gut feeling" that something just wasn't right with this team. It would not surprise me at all to learn that Josh and his intentions for next year and his attitude were a big part of said chemistry issues.

So...those feelings, combined with what strikes me as very odd timing of this announcement lead me to believe that K isn't going to be crying into his beer too much over McRoberts' decision. As soon as I heard about it, I wondered if K wasn't actually going to be pleased to get him out of Durham. I realize that sounds harsh but I think there might be more than a little truth in that idea. I don't dislike Josh - and I'll miss seeing some of those amazingly athletic plays he can make - but I honestly think the Duke TEAM is better off without him next year. In other words, I'm not crying in my beer, either. Duke is Duke - we'll be ok.

[Demosthenes]

Wow... I really can't help but wonder if people who keep talking about Duke being better off without Josh are either delusional or just sad. If you think the team had chemistry problems because Josh yelled at people or had a bad attitude, you have a REALLY low opinion of all of the players on Duke's team. According to JJ, he had a bad attitude during his first 2 years. According to pretty much the whole world MJ was notorious for being hard on teammates. The team has a bad year, so everyone needs a scapegoat... and sure enough it is McRoberts.

Please, someone let me know how chemistry keeps guys from playing perimeter defense and guarding a pick-and-roll. If one player being frustrated on a team really led to so many problems this year, then the other players on the team must be way too sensitive to ever be successful and Coach K is not anywhere near the leader or motivator that I think he is.

Every time I read these boards and posts on McRoberts lately (since the losing streak - and especially today) I get more and more frustrated with people. It seems that people begin to ignore faults by anyone but Josh. I assure you, if you look at the 4 losses, you will see that he was almost always the best player for Duke in each of those games when you combine offense and defense. McRoberts was far and away the best player Duke had this year. He definitely needs to do some maturing (emotionally and physically), but at least he cared enough to get angry and try to make plays to win games. Were the emotional outbursts negative? Sure? Is Duke better off without him? Honestly, how can anyone think that? If you really believe, that... I should let you know that you would be better off without all that extra money you are saving for retirement. It will just make you lazy when you retire, so you should go ahead and send it my way. Honestly!

For everyone to be "just guessing" that their gut feelings tell them that Josh was more of a detriment to the team than a benefit... well it just makes me a bit sad about the maturity level on this board. You are either delusional or you just have a very low opinion about every player and coach on this team. Goodbye.

[glutton]

I said right after the VCU loss that I felt that there was something wrong with this team - something beyond a lot of youth and inexperience and players hampered by injuries. I agree that, at least for the last 1/2-1/3 of the season, the guys didn't look happy out on the court. This will probably get interpreted as sour grapes on my part, but I for one, will not miss Josh's petulant on-court behavior when things didn't go his way. I still maintain that the chemistry on this team was NOT good. I have no inside knowledge, of course, only years of watching college b-ball and a "gut feeling" that something just wasn't right with this team. It would not surprise me at all to learn that Josh and his intentions for next year and his attitude were a big part of said chemistry issues.

So...those feelings, combined with what strikes me as very odd timing of this announcement lead me to believe that K isn't going to be crying into his beer too much over McRoberts' decision. As soon as I heard about it, I wondered if K wasn't actually going to be pleased to get him out of Durham. I realize that sounds harsh but I think there might be more than a little truth in that idea. I don't dislike Josh - and I'll miss seeing some of those amazingly athletic plays he can make - but I honestly think the Duke TEAM is better off without him next year. In other words, I'm not crying in my beer, either. Duke is Duke - we'll be ok.

although I have no inside knowledge myself, I have heard some second-hand stories which basically confirm your suspicions- that this team had serious chemistry issues, specifically involving josh, and that he and coach K weren't getting along. so while his abilities will certainly be missed, coach K may well feel that the team as a whole will be better off without him.

[elvis14]

Wow... I really can't help but wonder if people who keep talking about Duke being better off without Josh are either delusional or just sad.

I don't think you are talking about me but just in case, I'm not saying we are better off without Josh (and like you think we could use less psycho-babble). I am saying that we should be a better team next year. Not because Josh is gone but because we only lose Josh, we keep 8 players with game, and we get 3 or 4 new guys coming in including Kyle Singler (stud). Josh is a great player and I bet after having an off season where he can workout and work on his game instead of rehab from back surgery, he'll be much improved next year. I just think that we'll have 8 other guys that'll be much improved and we will be a better team.

[3rdgenDukie]

The whole 'we didn't look like we were having fun' thing is ridiculous. Duke players are, and always have been, very serious on the court. Bobby Hurley looked like he was about to cry on a regular basis - and that was when we were winning 30+ games every year. Josh took winning very seriously, and expected a lot out of himself and his teammates.

Furthermore, why on earth would the team have issues with Josh? He is the consumate team player. If he was jacking up 20+ shots/game, and padding his stats for the league, sure. But he was first and foremost interested in getting teammates involved and always willing to do the dirty work of interior defense and rebounding. If the other Duke players didn't appreciate him as a teammate, we have huge problems.

Make no mistake, losing Josh is a huge blow, and even getting Patterson would not adequately replace what Josh would have given us next year. That being said, Josh gave us two more years than we could have rightfully expected in this day and age, and we were better for it.

I think we will be better next year primarily by having more familiarity between teammates and the addition of some key capabilities (shooting, scoring, perimeter defense). But having Josh next year would have been spectacular.

[greybeard]

My thought, McRob knows that that back of his has only a finite number of games in it, and just how many is anybody's guess. I think that back hampered his play this year, most at the beginning and then again towards the end of this season.

He still seemingly has traction with GMs and will likely be taken in the first round. Getting paid now makes sense, if my supposition is correct, whether his "stock" might be improved by staying another year or not. I think that he stayed this last year knowing that it would be a rehab, tryout year for his new back, and that K and Paulus knew it too. IMO, that is why Paulus "rushed" to come back too soon, again that is just my opinion. Wanted to play with his boy, the two probably talked about the things that they would do together at Duke from the time they signed, and this was the last chance to do it. Also, wanted to help his boy make the best showing he could so he could get the cash.

My guess, K knew that this was McRob's last year, and wanted him to redevelop his performance ability and show well so he could make some money before his career is cut short. If so, it was the generous and right thing to do. Z got more than enough taste of what the ACC is like to know what he needs to do to get better. McRob played valiently for this team. Personally, I found it painful to watch him at times, but only because I saw the back as the cause of much of what others keep saying are shortcomings in his skill set. He might well develop a way to shoot the ball better, notwithstanding the restrictions that his back places on the smooth transfer of energy, and might well come to the ball better, ditto, and might diversify his interior move set more, ditto, or might do all those things if the back improves. Or, all those things might stay relatively the same.

Whatever the case, the young man played his heart out, as did the rest of the guys. It was time for him to move on. IMO, his back was against the wall.

[throatybeard]

I think that's a very astute take, greybeard.

[willywoody]

i don't ever remember even once this year where mcbobs' back seemed to be hurting him. never saw him stretching out on the sidelines or getting a rub down.

[bhd28]

i don't ever remember even once this year where mcbobs' back seemed to be hurting him. never saw him stretching out on the sidelines or getting a rub down.
Perhaps because he only got about 3-4 minutes of total rest during games? Did you happen to see him in the locker room before the games and at the half? Those would likely be the only times he would be getting stretched and getting rubbed down.

I hope you are right, though, and that the back didn't bother him at all... physically. If you have had a major injury, though, I know you will admit that it HAD to have affected him mentally. I would expect it made him more cautious banging (and maybe rebounding in a crowd) at least for part of the season.

[DukieUGA]

Jayson Williams never played at Duke, that guy played for the Nets. Jason Williams however, did play for Duke. I agree with Willywoody's questions. I'm quite confident that Josh's off-season back surgery affected his off-season training and his starting point for skills and conditioning this year, but once the year started i never saw any sign that it was his back that was limiting him. I could sense that there were big chemistry issues with this team, whether those all pertained to Josh or not i don't pretend to know, but i can be sure that some of them did. He was good player, great skills that were not matched by his output. I think that he could be quite good in the NBA if he a) gets a bit stronger (but not too much bulkier b/c that would negate one of his main attributes, quickness at 6'10) and b) a better jumper. Both of those things are totally possible over time.

[bhd28]

Jayson Williams never played at Duke, that guy played for the Nets. Jason Williams however, did play for Duke. I agree with Willywoody's questions. I'm quite confident that Josh's off-season back surgery affected his off-season training and his starting point for skills and conditioning this year, but once the year started i never saw any sign that it was his back that was limiting him. I could sense that there were big chemistry issues with this team, whether those all pertained to Josh or not i don't pretend to know, but i can be sure that some of them did. He was good player, great skills that were not matched by his output. I think that he could be quite good in the NBA if he a) gets a bit stronger (but not too much bulkier b/c that would negate one of his main attributes, quickness at 6'10) and b) a better jumper. Both of those things are totally possible over time.

Hopefully we had a lot of guys whos output didn't match their skills. Josh had the best (by far?) output on the team (2nd in scoring, 3rd in FG% - behind Lance and Z, first in rebounding, second in assists, second in steals, first in blocks). If others output matched their skill... we won't have nearly enough skill to be successful next year.

[greybeard]

Injuries can significantly impede even when they don't hurt. If a person's spine lacks the ability to flex easily in ways that it should, it will effect many, many actions or how one goes about doing them. Working our way around such disfunctions is mostly what we do. Some with appropriate support can go back behind them and relearn how to function properly with the body we have at hand. In McRob's case that includes a spin that was sufficiently problematic to require surgical intervention (that has to be pretty darn problematic in my book), and, if I'm not mistaken, involved the fussion of vertebrae.

At any rate, reduce the ease and zone of rotation and/or flexability of your spine (just hold your back stiff), and try shooting a few jumpers, hooks; try moving from a braced stop towards the ball when someone passes it to you.

Then we'll talk somemore. Massages. You guys are killing me!

[willywoody]

i tried googling but couldn't find any mention of lumbar fusion, just discectomy. most likely they wouldn't fuse given his age unless there was an instability issue.

either way, i'm sure it was and will continue to bother him given the nature of the beast. just how much it changes his play is difficult to conclude as he has had back problems since high school. so he may actually be feeling better and more limber this year than he has in some time or he may have had nagging pain all year.

[ChrisP]

Wow... I really can't help but wonder if people who keep talking about Duke being better off without Josh are either delusional or just sad. If you think the team had chemistry problems because Josh yelled at people or had a bad attitude, you have a REALLY low opinion of all of the players on Duke's team. According to JJ, he had a bad attitude during his first 2 years. According to pretty much the whole world MJ was notorious for being hard on teammates. The team has a bad year, so everyone needs a scapegoat... and sure enough it is McRoberts.

Please, someone let me know how chemistry keeps guys from playing perimeter defense and guarding a pick-and-roll. If one player being frustrated on a team really led to so many problems this year, then the other players on the team must be way too sensitive to ever be successful and Coach K is not anywhere near the leader or motivator that I think he is.

Every time I read these boards and posts on McRoberts lately (since the losing streak - and especially today) I get more and more frustrated with people. It seems that people begin to ignore faults by anyone but Josh. I assure you, if you look at the 4 losses, you will see that he was almost always the best player for Duke in each of those games when you combine offense and defense. McRoberts was far and away the best player Duke had this year. He definitely needs to do some maturing (emotionally and physically), but at least he cared enough to get angry and try to make plays to win games. Were the emotional outbursts negative? Sure? Is Duke better off without him? Honestly, how can anyone think that? If you really believe, that... I should let you know that you would be better off without all that extra money you are saving for retirement. It will just make you lazy when you retire, so you should go ahead and send it my way. Honestly!

For everyone to be "just guessing" that their gut feelings tell them that Josh was more of a detriment to the team than a benefit... well it just makes me a bit sad about the maturity level on this board. You are either delusional or you just have a very low opinion about every player and coach on this team. Goodbye.


Do I HAVE to start every post with the phrase "This is only my opinion, but..."? Sorry, I thought it was implied. This is a fan board, I have my opinions and you have yours. Sorry if you don't like mine, but I don't appreciate being insulted on let's see now...at least 3 fronts. I am neither delusional nor sad. And, I don't think I'm immature. God, I hope not as I'll be 40 next month!

AS I SAID BEFORE, I don't dislike Josh, I just happen to think that the Duke men's basketball team will be better off without him next year. The main reason I say that is because it's obvious that Josh wants out and I think that fact must have been one of the worst kept secrets in Durham this past season, so how can that be good for the team? I'd rather have 5 guys on the court who love playing for Duke and K and whose primary concern is helping the TEAM. I never said that I thought Duke would have been better off this PAST season without JM, just that I think it will going forward.

On a final note - and sorry if all my chemistry talk is too much "psycho babble" for some of you - I'll give you an example of where I think poor chemistry did affect the ability to play good perimeter D and to defend the pick and roll. Coach K said on at least two occasions that I know of toward the end of the season, that the team wasn't communicating properly on "D". He seemed both concerned and upset about it. I'm curious, did you not notice that we went from a really, really good defensive team at the beginning and middle of the year, to a really poor defensive team at the end? Strike you as AT ALL odd? It sure did hit me that way. If some of you don't think that psychology plays a BIG role in performance - whether it's on the court or in the corporate world, then I seriously doubt I can enlighten you. I've said it before and I'll say it (I really hope for the last time) again, something seemed "off" to me with this past year's team. I don't think ALL of the problems can be attributed to poor chemistry/communication/whatever, but I do think that IF there was discord in the locker room, it HAD to have some effect on the team's play. And, on a young, inexperienced team at a high-profile program like Duke's I would be willing to bet money (but not my retirement funds) that any chemistry issues that did exist only exacerbated the other "regular" problems that one might expect during the season.

[willywoody]

i agree with you and have posted the same thoughts after the nc state loss. it just made no sense that the defense went down the tubes unless there was some chemistry problem.

[bhd28]

No sense? As in the only way that Duke's defense could get worse is because of "chemistry" issues? Fatigue, teams being better prepared for what kind of defense Duke runs, Duke players fighting through minor injuries... those things couldn't make a difference? Hey, to each their own. As everyone is so keen on pointing out... everyone is entitled to their opinion right?

[willywoody]

you make good points. coach k had stated there was poor communication on defense, though, which seemed an odd thing to occur in the middle of the season. but your explanations are highly plausible and may be correct.

[ricks68]

So the thread I started earlier regarding Josh's back wasn't good enough for you guys? I finally posted on a subject that had some merit and you guys followed up in another thread. Am I to be the next Rodney? Sheesh!

ricks

[greybeard]

So the thread I started earlier regarding Josh's back wasn't good enough for you guys? I finally posted on a subject that had some merit and you guys followed up in another thread. Am I to be the next Rodney? Sheesh!

ricks

"McRoberts Back," I thought it was a belated plea to the gods that McRoberts' return, you know come "back." Actually, I just stopped at the first post and never got to yours, Rick.

BTW, if 68 refers to the year of your graduation from college, it is the same year as mine. Small world, eh?