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Lavabe
07-05-2008, 08:33 AM
It's on again, and so starts the yearly visit to the VS channel. It starts in Brittany this year, and works counterclockwise around France. I can hardly wait to feel my first cringe as Bob calls it the TOOR DAY FRANTZ.:eek:

As for the riders, sheesh this is weird:
1) No Levi and Contador. They went to the banned ASTANA team. ASTANA, you'll recall, served notice last year, then got hit with doping. L & C went to ASTANA after ASTANA cleaned up. Nonetheless, LeTour won't have ASTANA race this year.
2) Cadel Evans is the favorite.
3) No Discovery Channel, nor a T Mobile Team. The times, they are a changing.
4) Would love to see Garmin/Chipotle/ Millar's team do well.
5) I'll go with Denis Menchov, Evans, and, just for fun, Millar.
6) George Hincapie races for Team Columbia.

The race web site is always good:
http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/us/100/index.html
OR
you can just go www.letour.fr and hit the British flag in the upper right.

Liggett, Sherwen, and Roll are the best. But about Roll's TOOR DAY FRANTZ!;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

OldPhiKap
07-05-2008, 09:39 AM
I'm fixin' to lose lots of productive time over the next few weeks.

Bob Roll = comedy gold.

hughgs
07-10-2008, 04:27 PM
It's on again, and so starts the yearly visit to the VS channel. It starts in Brittany this year, and works counterclockwise around France. I can hardly wait to feel my first cringe as Bob calls it the TOOR DAY FRANTZ.:eek:

As for the riders, sheesh this is weird:
1) No Levi and Contador. They went to the banned ASTANA team. ASTANA, you'll recall, served notice last year, then got hit with doping. L & C went to ASTANA after ASTANA cleaned up. Nonetheless, LeTour won't have ASTANA race this year.
2) Cadel Evans is the favorite.
3) No Discovery Channel, nor a T Mobile Team. The times, they are a changing.
4) Would love to see Garmin/Chipotle/ Millar's team do well.
5) I'll go with Denis Menchov, Evans, and, just for fun, Millar.
6) George Hincapie races for Team Columbia.

The race web site is always good:
http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/us/100/index.html
OR
you can just go www.letour.fr and hit the British flag in the upper right.

Liggett, Sherwen, and Roll are the best. But about Roll's TOOR DAY FRANTZ!;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

Good stage (#6) up Super-Besse today.

Lavabe
07-10-2008, 04:30 PM
Good stage (#6) up Super-Besse today.

Don't look now, but ...

it's Columbia and Garmin/Chipotle up in the front!!

Things are looking VERY interesting.:)

Cavlaw
07-10-2008, 04:30 PM
I've only caught a few stages, but was happy to see Thor win the other day.

OldPhiKap
07-10-2008, 05:08 PM
I don't catch the stage results until I watch the night recap (8-11) so I see I'll have to be careful about when I check in on this thread.

I can't wait to we get to a few HC climbs. The TDF doesn't start 'till they pass a devil on the side of a mountain.

OldPhiKap
07-10-2008, 05:13 PM
http://www.themonkeycage.org/2008/07/post_99.html

DukieInKansas
07-11-2008, 01:58 AM
OldPhiKap - that is really neat. I'm going to pretend I didn't see it so I can get some work done tomorrow.

I watched the night program earlier this week and quickly remembered why I tape the morning live coverage to watch at night even though that means no HD. It was fun seeing Kirchen take the overall lead today. Don't you think ASO has to be a bit peeved that an American team is in yellow tonight?

Lavabe
07-11-2008, 04:14 PM
Well, according to ESPN, Manuel Beltran was kicked out of the Tour today, having tested positive for EPO.

Meanwhile, what a cool stage today in the Masssif Central. Nice to see Columbia and Garmin/Chipotle doing well. And watch out for Menchov. Cadel Evans is looming large.

Tomorrow's stage brings the riders to the Pyrenees for Sunday's first BIG mountain stage, featuring Col des Ares, Col de Peyresourdre and Col d’Aspin.

Should be fun on Sunday!

Cheers,
Lavabe

hughgs
07-11-2008, 05:56 PM
Well, according to ESPN, Manuel Beltran was kicked out of the Tour today, having tested positive for EPO.

Cyclingnews is reporting the same. They also report some "abnormal" blood values.

g_olaf
07-11-2008, 07:16 PM
I've only caught a few stages, but was happy to see Thor win the other day.

What a fantastic moniker: GOD OF THUNDER!

DukieInKansas
07-12-2008, 02:49 AM
I can't believe that I have once again scheduled a vacation without access to tv/internet/newspapers during the Tour. You would think I'd learn. I'll have to play catch up on 7/20 when I get back. What an interesting stage today.

dukemomLA
07-12-2008, 04:48 AM
I'm a big fan of the Tour de France, but I have to admit that the assault on Armstrong and the Landis debacle (...both unwarranted IMHO) left a sour taste in my mouth.

I acknowledge that I am an uninformed viewer. I am wishing for a GREAT showing by GH. But...then again....I suspect that there will be SOMETHING that arises to diminish his success, if that is to be.

Call me cynical.

Lavabe
07-12-2008, 07:45 AM
I'm a big fan of the Tour de France, but I have to admit that the assault on Armstrong and the Landis debacle (...both unwarranted IMHO) left a sour taste in my mouth.

I acknowledge that I am an uninformed viewer. I am wishing for a GREAT showing by GH. But...then again....I suspect that there will be SOMETHING that arises to diminish his success, if that is to be.

Call me cynical.

As you and I are among the precious few who still look forward each time to Olympic track and field, no matter the scandal, I find myself similarly cynical, but nonetheless wanting to see this year's Tour. Part of why I like to watch is the coverage. Ligs, Sherwin, and Roll are pleasantly different from ye olde standard coverage team. And the coverage is SO in your face, with skilled camerawork. Nice production overall.

I love watching George Hincapie at work. He is the ultimate Tour teammate. George figures prominently with Team Columbia, so I expect some skilled riding from him on Sunday. George has shown more than enough times over the last ten years his gift at combatting the tactics that other teams put up against the yellow jersey. He's in exactly the same position this year as we speak. Will look forward to his performance on Sunday.

I am having difficulty REALLY getting into this year's Tour, given the absence of Team Astana's Levi & Contador (who are as clean as the other riders). But it is the Tour, and there's just something about watching each year's bunch sprints, mountain passes, color, overall scenery, and tactics that get me going. And honestly, with homage to Jim McKay, it's still filled with great human drama of athletic competition.

I wish I were watching in HD as they climbed into the clouds yesterday.:eek:

I wonder what mapei feels about this year's Tour. I hope all's okay.

Cheers,
Lavabe

DukieInKansas
07-12-2008, 09:07 AM
I'm totally bummed about the Beltran report. With the recent study that questioned the EPO testing, and if they still use the same "reputable" (cough cough) lab that they have used in the past, I question the results of the A test. I hope the B test is negative - but since the same lab usually does the retest and they have a vested interest in getting the same result, I doubt that will happen.

I'm excited to see the two American teams doing so well. It isn't a surprise to see Georgie leading the maillot jaune around France. He has gotten pretty good at that.

Lavabe
07-14-2008, 10:31 AM
It's Bastille Day, and there's a French rider at the front of the course.

The Col de Tourmalet is one hideous mountain to climb, and the riders are currently near the bottom of the descent. Things are separating themselves out, but it is just crazy today. After the descent, they have to climb another HC mountain.

Cadel Evans seems to be okay at today's start after yesterday's freakish crash. Team CSC is impressive.

More after this race concludes.

FWIW, thanks to Versus for front-loading commercials before the Col de Tourmalet, so that we could see the complete ascent. Nice job!

Cheers,
Lavabe

JasonEvans
07-14-2008, 12:23 PM
Cadel Evans is in yellow... one second ahead of Frank Schleck. I wonder if Schleck will try to sneak away and get a sprint bonus to put him in yellow some time the next couple stages before we get back to the serious mountain stages in the Alps.

Christian Vandevelde is in 3rd. I think he has a decent shot at being on the podium in Paris, though he'll have to hold off Deny Menchov, among others.

--Jason "it feels like the mountains are easier this year than in past years" Evans

g_olaf
07-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Cadel Evans is in yellow... one second ahead of Frank Schleck. I wonder if Schleck will try to sneak away and get a sprint bonus to put him in yellow some time the next couple stages before we get back to the serious mountain stages in the Alps.

Christian Vandevelde is in 3rd. I think he has a decent shot at being on the podium in Paris, though he'll have to hold off Deny Menchov, among others.

--Jason "it feels like the mountains are easier this year than in past years" Evans

I've been waiting to hear something from one of the Schleck brothers. I was thinking it was going to be Andy.

That said, check out this crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5d94P6JGo&feature=related)of Frank's from the Tour of Switzerland last month... ouch.

Lavabe
07-14-2008, 02:21 PM
Christian Vandevelde is in 3rd. I think he has a decent shot at being on the podium in Paris, though he'll have to hold off Deny Menchov, among others.

--Jason "it feels like the mountains are easier this year than in past years" Evans

Tomorrow's an offday. Wednesday's stage has a category 1 climb, but nothing like the stuff today.

Cadel did well today, but I didn't see him getting much help from the rest of Silence Lotto. If anything, Cadel can thank Vandevelde for pushing his group through the last kilometer, as that probably gave Cadel the seconds needed for the lead. Looks like his fall yesterday didn't interfere with things today.

Team Saunier Duval did very well today on the climbs. But Team CSC did a great job managing the other teams, and setting free F. Schleck. They are a scary good team.

I don't know about the mountains being easier. Today was pathetically difficult (two killer HC's). I believe that the second mountain stages (Alps if they're going counterclockwise around France, Pyrenees if they're going clockwise) is always where the mountains become difficult, as there's more team strategy, and fatigue becomes more of a factor.

Today's race was filled with strategy. It was a lot of fun to watch on Versus.
Cheers,
Lavabe

hughgs
07-14-2008, 05:56 PM
Cadel Evans is in yellow... one second ahead of Frank Schleck. I wonder if Schleck will try to sneak away and get a sprint bonus to put him in yellow some time the next couple stages before we get back to the serious mountain stages in the Alps.

Christian Vandevelde is in 3rd. I think he has a decent shot at being on the podium in Paris, though he'll have to hold off Deny Menchov, among others.

--Jason "it feels like the mountains are easier this year than in past years" Evans

There are no time bonuses this year.

dukemomLA
07-15-2008, 03:45 AM
Hate to admit it...but as an avid Tour de France fan, I think they're on their way out (and maybe already have arrived) to knocking themselves OUT as a premier worldwide sporting event.

There have been TOOOOO many questionable decisions (drug testing results, etc.) in the last few years that have turned off many spectators/viewers.

And this is NOT only USA folk -- most of Europe (obviously more avid folk than us for this event) is disgusted and turning away.

I have no idea what the answer is, but it pains me. (I'm annoyed. Can you tell?)

Lavabe
07-15-2008, 07:19 AM
Hate to admit it...but as an avid Tour de France fan, I think they're on their way out (and maybe already have arrived) to knocking themselves OUT as a premier worldwide sporting event.

There have been TOOOOO many questionable decisions (drug testing results, etc.) in the last few years that have turned off many spectators/viewers.

And this is NOT only USA folk -- most of Europe (obviously more avid folk than us for this event) is disgusted and turning away.

I have no idea what the answer is, but it pains me. (I'm annoyed. Can you tell?)

I hope all is well with you.

I always enjoy reading your posts, but I'm afraid I have a friendly disagreement with you on this one. ;)

With apologies to Monty Python, the Tour is not dead ... yet. :D

Several points to consider:
1) The European sports summer has been dominated by two non-annual mega-events: Eurosoccer 2008 and preps for the Olympics. Do NOT underestimate how the European sports fans have been focusing on these events.
2) The same issues that are affecting attendance and sponsorships here (gas, economy) are hitting over there as well. NASCAR/Sprint is running into this issue. The economy is also affecting sponsorships.
3) Drug issues haven't killed cycling. Looks like you'll soon be watching track and field, which has had its own severe wounds from drugs. I'll defer to dukie8 on this one, as he has commented on the Rowbury thread in the EK forum about the Euro drug phenomenon in T&F. Golden League is still around.
4) Baseball isn't dead yet here in the US. People came back. I believe the same sort of thing will happen given a few years in Europe.
5) FWIW, I believe that cycling is in an upturn here in the US ... perhaps a response to the gas situation. Also, look at the sponsorship of teams this year: TWO main teams are sponsored by American companies. As Vandevelde has moved up, next year will see at least TWO Americans battling for the podium (remember Levi?). Tour de California is now linked to the Tour de France folks. Tour de Georgia was wildly popular here this year.

In spirit, I see your point, but I wonder what evidence there is to support it. I also wonder whether any downturn we see is temporary ... or fatal. Some of the sponsorship changes may be the biggest evidence that points to what you're saying, but I also see that many of the sponsors have stayed on: Gerolsteiner, Liquigas, Cofidis, Agricole, CSC (for now), and others. Then again, sponsorships have often changed hands. Remember Team Mapei (which became Quickstep)?;)

I don't know the evidence that supports your claim. Is there a link that talks about attendance at the Tour? What about attendance for the Giro d'Italia? And frankly, how do you measure attendance at an event like the Tour?

Like it or not ... there is still something about watching the athletics and panorama of this event that still has me following it. Having said that, I have no doubt that the organizers can find ways to kill the event.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Lavabe
07-17-2008, 06:31 AM
Watch for the bunch sprints today, as there's only one category 4 hill today. They are making their way to the Alps.

After yesterday's stage, the Pyrenees have taken their toll on the American teams. The American teams areout of the top ten. CSC is in front, followed by AG2R, followed by the great mountain performers, Saunier Duval. CSC (including Frank Schleck) is capable of controlling most of the stages.

Cadel will probably hold onto the one second lead for today and the next stage. CSC is capable of changing all of the standings in the Alps. Team Silence-Lotto's Cadel Evans (the yellow jersey) will have to hope for alliances with some of the other teams. We've seen some of that with Vande Velde (Garmin-Chipotle), but Evans will need more than that. Alps start Sunday.

Team Barloworld has hit hard times. Duenas Nevado (a top 20 cyclist in the Tour) tested positive for EPO, so he's out. Yesterday, Versus commentator Bob Roll made a not-so-subtle comment that more rumors are floating around. Barloworld also lost two riders to a crash (Felix Cardenas and Paolo Borghini). In the first week, they had lost their best rider, Juan Mauricio Soler.

The sprinters will be battling for the green jersey over the next couple of days. There should be some great scenery as the riders race through southern France.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Ben63
07-17-2008, 08:40 AM
The most impressive climber in theis year's tour, Riccardo Ricco, has just failed a drug test and his team, Saunier-Duval, has withdrawn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2008/news/story?id=3492925

This is what is so frustrating to me about the tour. You get so enveloped in the sucess of these men only to find out this crap happens. When Lance won his 1st TdF, I was 8 years old. I have been watching it ever since. Armstrong was one of my heros and when I finally realized the truth, let's face it folks he cheated, I was crushed. I've also known about and have been following Floyd Landis since he was a domestique because he grew up 20 minutes from where I live. No one was pulling harder for him in 2006 than me, but once again I was crushed. I hate to pull the plug on an entire sport that I love to watch, but I am honestly not that far away from doing so.

Lavabe
07-17-2008, 08:40 AM
According to ESPN, Saunier Duval has left the Tour, as Riccardo Ricco (winner of two stages) tested positive for EPO. I guess this was what Roll was talking about in yesterday's Tour coverage.

Sounds like there was a fan reaction scene when Ricco got off the team bus. More details later.

Barloworld rider Baden Cooke just dropped out after a crash.

No cheers,
Lavabe

hughgs
07-17-2008, 06:42 PM
This is what is so frustrating to me about the tour. You get so enveloped in the sucess of these men only to find out this crap happens. When Lance won his 1st TdF, I was 8 years old. I have been watching it ever since. Armstrong was one of my heros and when I finally realized the truth, let's face it folks he cheated, I was crushed. I've also known about and have been following Floyd Landis since he was a domestique because he grew up 20 minutes from where I live. No one was pulling harder for him in 2006 than me, but once again I was crushed. I hate to pull the plug on an entire sport that I love to watch, but I am honestly not that far away from doing so.

Sigh. Once again, let me ask you what proof you have that Lance cheated. I don't know that he cheated and you don't know either. If you THINK he cheated or just SUSPECT that he cheated, please state that rather than making it sound like it's been proven that he cheated. Stating that Lance cheated (as opposed to he think he cheated) is almost the same thing as rumor-mongering. In both cases you're making statements that are based more on what you think is true than what has been shown to be true.

And, the once again isn't directed at you, but rather at myself. Sorry I couldn't work that in earlier.

gus
07-17-2008, 06:45 PM
Sigh. Once again, let me ask you what proof you have that Lance cheated. I don't know that he cheated and you don't know either. If you THINK he cheated or just SUSPECT that he cheated, please state that rather than making it sound like it's been proven that he cheated. Stating that Lance cheated (as opposed to he think he cheated) is almost the same thing as rumor-mongering. In both cases you're making statements that are based more on what you think is true than what has been shown to be true.

And, the once again isn't directed at you, but rather at myself. Sorry I couldn't work that in earlier.

I agree.

With how strongly the French have wanted to prove he cheated, including breaking lab rules to do it... they never suceeded. That's proof to me that he didn't cheat.

hughgs
07-17-2008, 07:55 PM
I agree.

With how strongly the French have wanted to prove he cheated, including breaking lab rules to do it... they never suceeded. That's proof to me that he didn't cheat.

To be clear, my post isn't really concerned with whether Lance did or did not dope (though I don't think he did). I just hate it when people say that it's a fact that he did.

hughgs
07-17-2008, 07:57 PM
According to ESPN, Saunier Duval has left the Tour, as Riccardo Ricco (winner of two stages) tested positive for EPO. I guess this was what Roll was talking about in yesterday's Tour coverage.

Sounds like there was a fan reaction scene when Ricco got off the team bus. More details later.

Barloworld rider Baden Cooke just dropped out after a crash.

No cheers,
Lavabe

Here's an interesting interview about Ricco's positive test. Summary: the type of EPO rumored to be found does not a sanctioned test.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=/features/2008/tour08_micera_st12

hughgs
07-17-2008, 08:47 PM
Here's an interesting interview about Ricco's positive test. Summary: the type of EPO rumored to be found does not a sanctioned test.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=/features/2008/tour08_micera_st12

OK, I'm obviously posting news as I come across it. My apologies for that (and go post count!).

Here's another article from cyclingnews. Summary: WADA has been working with drug manufacturers to develop new tests for newer drugs.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/news/?id=/news/2008/jul08/jul18news

dukie8
07-17-2008, 09:55 PM
3) Drug issues haven't killed cycling. Looks like you'll soon be watching track and field, which has had its own severe wounds from drugs. I'll defer to dukie8 on this one, as he has commented on the Rowbury thread in the EK forum about the Euro drug phenomenon in T&F. Golden League is still around.

most of the female track records are considered to be dirty with the 10,000 probably the most dirty. even though none of the chinese or eastern european women who set these records ever failed drug tests, you would have to have your head deeply set in the proverbial sand to think that they were legit. a lot of them were set in the 1980s or 90s before real drug testing was available. here's a picture of the world record holder in the w800m (it was set in 1983 and hasn't been approached since then):

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vitejte.cz/velke/1316_67_03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vitejte.cz/objekt.php%3Foid%3D3240%26j%3Den&h=370&w=273&sz=34&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=FC2YF9VjxwGfWM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djarmila%2B800m%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26s a%3DN

that simply is not a natural female body.

the list of american sprinters who have been busted for PEDs is long and distinguished: tim montgomery, marion jones, justin gaitlin, antonio pettigrew and dennis mitchell just to name of few of the former olympic gold medalists who have been nailed for drugs. despite all of that, t&f is on a major uptick in the united states as we are sending our best men's and women's team ever to beijing and the olympic trials were very well attended and followed across the country. i believe that we have legitimate medal contenders in every event from the 100m to the marathon with the exception of probably the w800 (we are soft there).

dukemomla, what evidence do you have that the tdf is dead in europe? it basically was a non event in the united states until lance came along and then you had a superstar for the public to follow. now that he is retired, its popularity in the united states is just back to pre lance levels. it's news to me that the europeans have turned their backs to it.

Lavabe
07-17-2008, 10:11 PM
OK, I'm obviously posting news as I come across it. My apologies for that (and go post count!).

Here's another article from cyclingnews. Summary: WADA has been working with drug manufacturers to develop new tests for newer drugs.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/news/?id=/news/2008/jul08/jul18news

The other good news is that at least three teams (CSC, Garmin-Chipotle, Columbia) are using extensive anti-doping measures. Their attitudes signal a shift, and perhaps give their sponsors some assuredness.

At least folks are getting caught, and the outcry has been swift. And hey ... the police are acting quickly. Nonetheless, I still wish Levi & Contador were racing in this year's Tour.

Next month's Olympics should be interesting to watch. I wonder how effective the anti-doping panels there will be.

Can anyone stop Cavendish on the sprints?:eek:
Cheers,
Lavabe

DevilAlumna
07-18-2008, 12:11 AM
here's a picture of the world record holder in the w800m (it was set in 1983 and hasn't been approached since then):

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vitejte.cz/velke/1316_67_03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vitejte.cz/objekt.php%3Foid%3D3240%26j%3Den&h=370&w=273&sz=34&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=FC2YF9VjxwGfWM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djarmila%2B800m%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26s a%3DN

that simply is not a natural female body.


That's because that's simply not a woman... :eek:

Ben63
07-18-2008, 01:13 AM
Sigh. Once again, let me ask you what proof you have that Lance cheated. I don't know that he cheated and you don't know either. If you THINK he cheated or just SUSPECT that he cheated, please state that rather than making it sound like it's been proven that he cheated. Stating that Lance cheated (as opposed to he think he cheated) is almost the same thing as rumor-mongering. In both cases you're making statements that are based more on what you think is true than what has been shown to be true.

And, the once again isn't directed at you, but rather at myself. Sorry I couldn't work that in earlier.

So you're right, I'll give you that, I have no legit proof Lance cheated and I shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. My bad. HOWEVER... this thread is entitled "Tour de France 2008" and so I don't want to start a back and forth of did he/didn't he but this is my $.02.

That being said, even without proof I believe Lance cheated. The nature of the sport during his time was using PEDs to gain an advantage. By nature cycling is the perfect sport for doping. Any idiot can pedal a bicycle, you can, I can, anyone can. The key to bike racing is strength and endurance. PEDs will give you this advantage. It has been said before and said again, steroids dont help you hit the fastball, just hit it further. Baseball players still need God-given ability to play in the pros. Cyclists have no special skill. They just need to pedal harder and longer than everyone else.

I have read David Walsh's book From Lance to Landis and by no stretch of the imagination do I believe all of the accusations that are made in it but what is does do is give a pretty good idea of the mindset of the teams and cyclists themselves. The feeling was "I can't compete without taking what he's taking." The drug rampage was almost more mental than physical. When you are behind someone climbing a mountain your brain is telling you, "I saw the guy ahead of me take EPO last night, how the hell am I supposed to keep up on this mountain." So Rider A starts taking EPO later that week and realizes how much it really does help, because the benefits are quite tremendous. This is how the drugs spread, and it undoubtedly found its way to Lance Armstrong.

Once again this is just my opinion and the jury will always be out. There will never be solid proof so believe what you want to believe. Trust me I would love to say I think Lance was clean, but to me that is clearly not the case.

Lavabe
07-18-2008, 05:55 PM
Cavendish won yet another bunch sprint finish in today's stage. He has won four stages, and is tied with the God of Thunder for second in the battle for the green jersey.

Team Columbia is impressive in the sprints, and it routinely sets up Cavendish for the wins. The last 4km of today's stage are great. I hope this is not one of those too-good-to-be-true situations.

Tomorrow looks to be a day for the sprinters as they approach the Alps. Sunday begins the Alpine trek. Sunday is 1 HC and 1 Category 1 hill. Tuesday has two HC climbs. Wednesday is the killer to Alpe-d'Huez; 3 HC climbs in that stage.

You can now see the street view of different Tour Stages on Googlemaps. WAY cool!
Cheers,
Lavabe

g_olaf
07-18-2008, 06:07 PM
I would love to say I think Lance was clean, but to me that is clearly not the case.

"Do they expect us to ride the Tour on Perrier water?” - Jacques Anquetil

Like Barry Bonds, Lance suffers from guilt by association, whether it be Dr. Michele Ferrari, or his former teammates, Landis, Beltran, Tyler Hamilton, Heras and Andreaus, all who have either tested positive or admitted doping.

g_olaf
07-18-2008, 06:34 PM
Wednesday is the killer to Alpe-d'Huez; 3 HC climbs in that stage.

Here we will see how 'clean' the tour is:

Of the top 12 fastest accents (http://grimpee.alpe.9online.fr/references.html) up Alpe-d'Huez; Only Miguel Indurain has escaped allegations of doping. In fact, Lance is the only other name on the list to have failed a drug test and/or been suspended/fired for doping.

Interestingly last year's stage winner, Frank Schleck, took over 40' to make the climb.

Lavabe
07-18-2008, 09:20 PM
Here we will see how 'clean' the tour is:

Of the top 12 fastest accents (http://grimpee.alpe.9online.fr/references.html) up Alpe-d'Huez; Only Miguel Indurain has escaped allegations of doping. In fact, Lance is the only other name on the list to have failed a drug test and/or been suspended/fired for doping.

I believe you meant to say that Lance was the only other name on the list NOT to have failed a drug test, etc... :)

g_olaf
07-18-2008, 11:57 PM
I believe you meant to say that Lance was the only other name on the list NOT to have failed a drug test, etc... :)

Whoops... you're right... that is what I meant.

RainingThrees
07-19-2008, 02:07 AM
does anyone know how sebastian lang is doing?

Lavabe
07-19-2008, 04:04 AM
does anyone know how sebastian lang is doing?

The bad news: Lang (of Gerolsteiner) is 63rd in the general classification (the competition for the yellow jersey). He is 53 minutes, 12 seconds behind the leader, Cadel Evans. In the green jersey/points competition, he is also in 67th place, having totalled 12 points. In the team competition, Gerolsteiner is in 3rd place, some 15 min 23 sec behind CSC.

The good news: in the "King of the Mountain" competition (best climber), Lang has 60 pts, a three point lead over his Gerolsteiner teammate, second place Bernhard Kohl. Lang took the polka dot jersey Thursday, and will wear it today. I think he'll retain the jersey going into the Alps. That's when it will be interesting. Kohl is in 4th place in the overall competition, so Lang may receive serious climbing competition starting Sunday.

If you want to follow Lang, the official Tour web site (www.letour.com, then click the language flag icon in the upper right) will give you all the information you need. If you go to the English page, scroll down to find the yellow jersey standings in the center bottom. Click the link for FULL STANDINGS. You'll see the leaders at the top, but if you scroll down again, you'll see a complete list for the overall yellow jersey competition. Simply click the jersey of the competition you want, and the full standing will appear.

Cheers,
Lavabe

RainingThrees
07-19-2008, 09:24 AM
thanks very much.

TriGuy
07-19-2008, 03:41 PM
I used to have my doubts about Lance, even with the rigorous testing and no positives.

What viscerally convinced me that he was clean, though, was a local sports radio guy who himself was not a big cycling fan. But he was a cancer survivor, and summarized his feelings fairly eloquently -- when you've gone through operations, tests, and multiple rounds of chemo for months or years . . . when you're finally cancer-free you never want to put so much as an aspirin in your system, much less anything stronger.

Fairly convincing.

Lavabe
07-20-2008, 09:29 AM
Several news items:
1) Barloworld is withdrawing their sponsorship.
2) Cavendish withdrew before the start of today's stage. This was expected, as he is scheduled to participate in Beijing, and the Alps are just not going to help this sprinter.
3) A number of sprinters are cracking, and at least one has withdrawn on the first hill (classified as an HC) today. Once off the top of the mountain, expect speeds to go as high as 60-90 km/hr.

It looks like we'll have a change soon in the race for the King of the Mountain.

The yellow jersey race should remain in check down the first hill, but we may see some interesting develpopments on the final closing hill today. Cadel Evans has a teammate who is cracking on the first hill. Cadel needs every teammate vs Schleck/CSC, so this is NOT good news for him.

EDIT: Oscar Pereiro, the 2006 champion, has crashed, and is now being taken to hospital. The pace has slowed down as the peloton slowed down awaiting news on him. The peloton crossed the mountain top minutes after the escape group today. The escapees had clear weather. The peloton was racing in rain. I hope Pereiro will be okay. GHASTLY!

Cheers,
Lavabe

mapei
07-20-2008, 09:52 AM
Hello to all - I've been hard pressed to find DBR time this year.

I've found the Tour more interesting this year without big names - I like watching the Euro riders without all the hype. And, BTW, count the number of American riders on the "American" teams. There's only one (George) on Columbia. What they really mean is American sponsors and management.

That said, I'm a George fan and I also really like CVV. But my favorite riders this year are on CSC - the Schleck brothers, Cancellara, and especially Jens Voight. Talk about the consummate teammate with a huge engine.

The doping is really disheartening. Those guys must be so desperate. I understand it but I hate what it's done to the sport - or did the sport, which is just too damn hard for real people, do it to itself?

The Tour is losing its American audience, true, but that's only because Americans care only about their own heroes. We're pretty isolated as a culture. That's like saying nobody cares about tennis anymore when it's really only that Americans don't care unless Americans are winning.

I think the commentary on Versus has been really good this year (except for my longtime fave Phil, who I think is showing his age, sadly - count the number of times others gently correct him). Robbie, Frankie, Bobke, and the host, whose name I don't know, have all been superb, and Paul's still good, too.

Hope everybody is getting some riding in. The heat is brutal in the East this year, but I'm getting out. Vive le Tour!

Barry Bonds never tested positive either,
mapei

Indoor66
07-20-2008, 10:34 AM
I think bike races are boring. I like to ride but don't like the activity as a spectator sport.

g_olaf
07-20-2008, 01:06 PM
I think bike races are boring. I like to ride but don't like the activity as a spectator sport.

Today's stage was ANYTHING but boring. Wow!

tecumseh
07-20-2008, 01:37 PM
I think bike races are boring. I like to ride but don't like the activity as a spectator sport.

I think they make compelling TV. Especially with the new motion stablizing cameras they have some of the descents can take your breath away and on the climbs you can see them suffering. Yesterday to have guy hit a road sign and break his bike in two or today to have a guy ride his bike off a cliff now how can that be boring?

Bike races are kind of boring to watch in person however because you get to see so little of the actual action.

tecumseh
07-20-2008, 01:43 PM
The doping is really disheartening. Those guys must be so desperate. I understand it but I hate what it's done to the sport - or did the sport, which is just too damn hard for real people, do it to itself?

mapei

I am avoiding my ride today...it is so damn hot and did not get out early. Anyway I find the Cera EPO testing real interesting. The labs have been highly secretive about the test and it was developed with the cooperation of the drug manufacturer. Did they put some sort of tracer molecule in it?

mapei
07-20-2008, 03:14 PM
Today's stage was ANYTHING but boring. Wow!

You are so right! That was one of the best days of racing I can remember. What a ride by CSC, but really the day was full of great rides by various people. I wonder if Menchov could have gotten away if he hadn't crashed . . .

It was interesting to contrast the different reactions of Danny Pate, who finished third and was dejected, and CVV, who finished 10th and was elated. The difference can be explained, I guess, but I agree with Phil that Danny has nothing to be disappointed about - he was great today.

Look for big rides by all the contenders Tuesday and Wednesday. I'm pulling for Frank Schleck, I guess, and maybe CVV (but he would be an unlikely mountain winner), but anyone who wins from the front group of 6 will be deserving. It will also be interesting to see what Valverde can do. Not enough for yellow, but he could definitely win l'Alpe if he's on form.

sue71, esq
07-20-2008, 03:26 PM
I've been watching in the mornings before work, and woke up in time to see the last 30 or so minutes this morning. Wow! That was a captivating finish!

I do have a question, though, on the jerseys. Yellow is for overall time leader and IIRC, green is for overall points leader. But what is the polka dot King of the Hill (or something like that) jersey? How are those points determined?

I've watched for several years, but really only paid attention to the yellow jersey and individual stage winners prior to this year.

Thanks,
Sue71

tecumseh
07-20-2008, 03:36 PM
I found it heartening that Ricco pulled away from all the other contenders like they were weekend riders. To me that means that the peloton is cleaner, in other years there would have been a lot of other riders to chase him.

mapei
07-20-2008, 11:17 PM
I do have a question, though, on the jerseys. Yellow is for overall time leader and IIRC, green is for overall points leader. But what is the polka dot King of the Hill (or something like that) jersey? How are those points determined?

There are designated climbs on just about every stage, with points awarded for the Mountains jersey:


"The direction of the Tour de France rates all the climbs in the Tour de France and devides them in categories; five to be exact: from Hors Catégorie (toughest mountains) down to first, second, third and fourth category, for the ’easy’ climbs.

"Circumstances regarded in the categorial division are length of the climb, altitude, average and maximum gradients. For the points per rider per category, see the table below.

"A rider has to fulfil the Tour completely in order to be ranked in the final King of the Mountains classification."
See http://www.cvccbike.com/tour/eddy/xtra_bestanden/polkadot.htm for more about the jersey and other aspects of the Tour.

Lavabe
07-21-2008, 10:17 AM
I've been watching in the mornings before work, and woke up in time to see the last 30 or so minutes this morning. Wow! That was a captivating finish!

I do have a question, though, on the jerseys. Yellow is for overall time leader and IIRC, green is for overall points leader. But what is the polka dot King of the Hill (or something like that) jersey? How are those points determined?

I've watched for several years, but really only paid attention to the yellow jersey and individual stage winners prior to this year.

Thanks,
Sue71

This is a supplement to mapei's post.

There is also a white jersey competition (Best New Rider). This is assessed based on overall time throughout the Tour. Currently, Nibali holds nearly a 2 -4 minute lead over the top four in this competition.

Most Combative is awarded for each stage.

There is also a team competition. CSC has a 3+ minute advantage over the only close competition at this time, Team AG2R.

Cheers,
Lavabe

g_olaf
07-21-2008, 12:26 PM
...to have guy hit a road sign and break his bike in two

... then stand up, get a new bike, and get back into the race!

JasonEvans
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
So, only one mountain stage left (the biggest one) but it would seem to me that Schleck and CSC have a ton of work to do.

Frank is 8 seconds ahead of Cadel Evans. I am sorry, but there is no way that holds up in Saturday's ITT. Cadel is a time trial stud and Frank is not. I know being in yellow puts extra juice in your legs sometimes but I just do not see Frank staying ahead of Cadel with just an 8 second bulge. It probably needs to be more like a full minute... maybe more.

Vandy fell back today as did Menchov. Schleck, Kohl, Cadel, and Sastre are the only real contenders left at this point -- unless there is a huge surprise tomorrow.

-Jason "L'Alpe D'Huez is the best!!!" Evans

Lavabe
07-22-2008, 05:28 PM
So, only one mountain stage left (the biggest one) but it would seem to me that Schleck and CSC have a ton of work to do.

Frank is 8 seconds ahead of Cadel Evans. I am sorry, but there is no way that holds up in Saturday's ITT. Cadel is a time trial stud and Frank is not. I know being in yellow puts extra juice in your legs sometimes but I just do not see Frank staying ahead of Cadel with just an 8 second bulge. It probably needs to be more like a full minute... maybe more.

Vandy fell back today as did Menchov. Schleck, Kohl, Cadel, and Sastre are the only real contenders left at this point -- unless there is a huge surprise tomorrow.

-Jason "L'Alpe D'Huez is the best!!!" Evans

CSC was one hellacious team today. They broke VandeVelde today, and Menchov couldn't keep up on the descent as well.

CSC/Schleck/Sastre could put some space between the Evans/Kohl challenge tomorrow.

What a crazy crash today!

You're right ... I can't wait for L'Alpe d'Huez!

Cheers,
Lavabe

g_olaf
07-22-2008, 05:38 PM
What a crazy crash today!

Cheers,
Lavabe

You're right! 1st, amazing that he wasn't seriously injured and/or killed. 2nd, that he lost 5 minutes because he had to wait for the team car to bring a new bicycle.

g_olaf
07-22-2008, 07:14 PM
Quote of the day, regarding speeds riders hit while going downhill (~70mph):



"It looks absolutely terrifying, there are times when it’s freaky-deaky scary, but you’ve just got to calm it down a bit." -David Miller

Exiled_Devil
07-22-2008, 11:39 PM
an 8 second bulge.

<Beavis> heh heh. 8 second bulge. heh </Beavis>

Alp d'Huez - my friend was proposed to by a message written on the road there during the tour. The year the ITT went up the mountain. Versus (whatever it was back then) Showed an overhead shot of Lance just in time to frame the proposal. Her now-husband was at the race, she was in Durham. My wife and I are in Connecticut on vacation. He warned her to watch, and she asked us to watch as well to make sure she didn't miss it. Probably the coolest moment of TV watching I have ever experienced.

mapei
07-23-2008, 10:04 AM
What a great story!

CSC has been amazing, quite possibly the best team riding I have ever seen. Though the great Discovery, Banesto, and Saeco teams were also incredible in pursuing their objectives.

I agree with Jason that Frank is an unlikely winner, but he doesn't even get near the podium without that incredible team support. I know someone who has a "What Would Jens Do?" t-shirt.

Menchov or Carlos could set themselves up for the win today with a successful big attack, but I think it would also require Cadel to have un jour sans. He's ridden just well enough in the mountains to secure his position for the TT.

Lavabe
07-23-2008, 11:38 AM
Sastre is a madman. Pure and simple. WHAT a climb up L'Alpe-d'Huez!!

The leader's group is CRAZY!!

An unbelieveable ride by Sastre with 2 miles to go!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

mapei
07-23-2008, 11:41 AM
I know! I'm only following on CN and will have to watch when I get home - but good for him!

mapei
07-23-2008, 11:57 AM
Wow again. Bobby Julich is quoted on CyclingNews as saying "Carlos and CSC-Saxo Bank rode a beautiful race and got as much as they could ask for from the day!"

And how can you argue with that? Their TT weakness might still prevent an overall victory in Paris, given the TT course. But sometimes as an athlete you have to accept that, in the end, the other guy has a better engine. Meanwhile your job is to maximize your potential. I am so impressed with what these CSC guys have done for and with each other. They could easily have two guys on the podium in Paris and maybe even a winner.

Lavabe
07-23-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't know that CSC has it won just yet, but regardless, they just have pure guts. That was as much teamwork as we'll ever see on this Tour.

How I wish the Tour had a team time trial!

The next stage lacks the HC's, but there will be some interesting moves with the climbs. Nonetheless, I just don't see how anyone can outduel CSC before Saturday's stage.

Cheers,
Lavabe

mapei
07-23-2008, 02:21 PM
I think the "heads of state" will maintain their position going into Saturday's TT, though this Tour has been the most interesting I've ever watched and I'm sure the next couple of stages will produce some good theater.

For me the revelation of the Tour has been Andy Schleck. I had no idea.

TNTDevil
07-23-2008, 02:45 PM
...For me the revelation of the Tour has been Andy Schleck. I had no idea.Schleck, Kohl, Efimkin, Schumacher- lots of "young" talent on display in the mountains. Simply awesome.

I couldn't help but wonder if Vandevelde simply lacked the legs, or was it confidence, to launch his own attack on the final climb? Still a heckuva' ride for Christian.

gus
07-23-2008, 03:25 PM
Once again this is just my opinion and the jury will always be out. There will never be solid proof so believe what you want to believe. Trust me I would love to say I think Lance was clean, but to me that is clearly not the case.

I tend to believe not what I want, but what logic and evidence dictate.

There is also no solid proof that he hasn't sodomized sheep. I think it's incumbent on the accusers to come up with the evidence, and thus far, they've failed.

At some point, after so many failed efforts to prove Lance cheated, perhaps people will accept that he hasn't.

Shammrog
07-23-2008, 03:48 PM
I tend to believe not what I want, but what logic and evidence dictate.

There is also no solid proof that he hasn't sodomized sheep. I think it's incumbent on the accusers to come up with the evidence, and thus far, they've failed.

At some point, after so many failed efforts to prove Lance cheated, perhaps people will accept that he hasn't.

In principle, I totally agree. Never a shred of credible evidence against Lance, and I really want to believe he was always clean.

The main issue that I struggle with in that regard is that SO many cyclists have turned out to be dirty it is hard to believe any of the top competitors are, or at least were in years past, clean. I think nearly all if not all of Lance's teammates during his run eventually got busted. So, I choose to believe he was clean - but it can be admittedly hard to do so.

cf-62
07-23-2008, 04:00 PM
In principle, I totally agree. Never a shred of credible evidence against Lance, and I really want to believe he was always clean.

The main issue that I struggle with in that regard is that SO many cyclists have turned out to be dirty it is hard to believe any of the top competitors are, or at least were in years past, clean. I think nearly all if not all of Lance's teammates during his run eventually got busted. So, I choose to believe he was clean - but it can be admittedly hard to do so.

You must remember one key element to the "dirty" bikers. First, there are enough "cheaters" to make cycling take such an intense look -- but most of the popular riders not participating in the tour are because they are either arbitrarily named by the Spanish witch hunt or they are a new rider on a team that has been accused of something.

Thus, most of the currently tagged "dirty" riders by the Tour are guilty by association. This is the ultimate culmination of the WADA's witch hunt -- which has reached McCarthy-level hysteria in the ranks of those it hurts, if not for the rest of us.

Now, maybe there's something I don't know since I don't follow the sport as much, but I thought I read that the names on the Spanish police list were arbitrarily picked because they were cyclists that had participated in a race in Spain.

In the US, that would have been dropped as an improper search -- well, you would hope it would. With the way our own anti-doping witch hunts are jailing athletes and wasting millions of our tax dollars to figure out if Roger Clemens ATTENDED A PARTY, who knows if the constitution will stand up...

mapei
07-23-2008, 08:57 PM
Enough about Lance - there's a race, with real heroics, going on!

(Personally, I can't stand the guy, but it has little to do with doping. Let's move on.)

OldPhiKap
07-23-2008, 11:51 PM
A lot of good posts on this thread, and I'm always late because I have to wait for the "prime time" replay so I avoid this thread during the day. A few observations:

-- CSC is very dominant, although not as much as Postal/Discovery was a few years ago. But very well put together. I too wish there was a team TT.

-- Lance was the most tested rider in history and never tested negative. I'm a big fan though so take it with a grain of salt.

-- Today was the most entertaining stage so far. Sastre was great and no one could really challenge.

-- Roll/Ligette/Sherman are the best commentators that no one knows.

-- Saturday's TTs should be fun!!!!!

Lavabe
07-24-2008, 07:29 AM
-- Roll/Ligette/Sherman are the best commentators that no one knows.

You're probably correct on that. Roll (Bobke) hasn't blown his pronunciation of the Tour this year, and has actually proven even more informative than in previous years.

mapei earlier commented that Liggett was starting to lose some of his command of calling races. Lately, however, I've felt he has addressed that, and has improved in the Alps. I think some of the confusion relates to the lack of cameras and feeds they get. The bunch sprints are hard enough to call, but I still do like the way that Liggett and Sherwen cover the team movements in the last 2km of these sprints.

Biggest change from previous Tour coverage: No more Al Trautwig. I'm not yet liking Craig Hummer.

Cheers,
Lavabe

mapei
07-24-2008, 05:26 PM
I think you're right about Phil - Ever since I wrote that, I haven't caught a thing!

I think Roll used his TourDAYfraance pronunciation as a sort of calling card but the producers must have told him to lose it. He's been superb this year. And I like Hummer - he seems actually to know the sport. My friend says he was once a big-time swimmer.

I think CSC has been as good in their way as Postal/Discovery (or Banesto, on which Postal/Discovery was modeled, before them) was. They don't have a dominant leader like Lance or Miguel, which has affected their strategy. But there is no way the team tactics or team support could be better. Andy in particular has been amazing - the way he stands out this year reminds me of Ullrich in 1996, when he was supporting Riis. But, jeez, Carlos, Frank, Cancellara, Voigt, Arnesen, O'Grady, and I'm probably forgetting someone.

Anyway, that's a theoretical debate - Postal/Discovery was certainly a great, great team, with a very strong leader and a strongly disciplined strategy to set him up and wear the other teams down. The other great teamwork that I think of, although it was very different, was Saeco in their heyday in support of Cippolini's sprints. That red train was special.

g_olaf
07-24-2008, 05:46 PM
CSC has been as strong as any team I've watched. Since their men have been in yellow, they have absolutely controlled the race.

Also, look at their results: 2 stage wins, 2 different riders in yellow, best young rider and leading the team results by ~10 minutes.

If their had been a team time trial in this years tour, Cadel wouldn't have a chance at catching up.

Lavabe
07-26-2008, 08:08 AM
Danny Pate is blazing through the time trial. Update: He's the #1 time after 48 riders. That'll last an hour, max.

The God of Thunder had a VERY slow time.

Wet roads and rain forecast for today.

The profile of the course is pure speed. The last portion is very fast and mostly downhill.

At the beginning of the day, Wim Vansevenant was looking to make it three Lanterne Rouges in a row. Let's go Wim!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

Lavabe
07-26-2008, 09:43 AM
97 riders in. Now it's Cancellara, Millar, and Lang. Pate is 5th. We're starting to get to some of the fun riders of the day.

Voigt is running slow at the second checkpoint. Not a good day for him. Cancellara, however, was dynamite.

We'll see if the Schlecks/Sastre profit from Voigt and Cancellara.
Cheers,
Lavabe

Lavabe
07-26-2008, 12:10 PM
Schumacher takes the time trial. Cancellara takes second.

CVV does well.
Kohl does well (but what a freaky pre-start).
Cadel does well, but not well enough.
F. Schleck gets passed.
Sastre passes Schleck.
Sastre wins the yellow jersey.

BIG day for Garmin-Chipotle.

Tomorrow is the big day in Paris. Sastre rides the yellow jersey and is the grand champion.

A great day of cycling.
CHEERS,
Lavabe

sue71, esq
07-26-2008, 05:02 PM
2 questions-

What happened to Kohl pre-start? I missed it.

The announcers said that traditionally, no one challenges the yellow jersey during the final stage, and that therefore, whoever has the yellow coming out of the time trial and going into Sunday is the ultimate winner. What's up with that? If it's that close of a race, why not try to win it?

Lavabe
07-26-2008, 05:59 PM
2 questions-

What happened to Kohl pre-start? I missed it.

The announcers said that traditionally, no one challenges the yellow jersey during the final stage, and that therefore, whoever has the yellow coming out of the time trial and going into Sunday is the ultimate winner. What's up with that? If it's that close of a race, why not try to win it?

He fell off the starting platform. It looked like the chain came off the bicycle.

It's not close enough to even quibble. 65 seconds is not as close as it sounds.

Please remember several things:
1) Team CSC (Sastre's team) will guard Sastre tomorrow and prevent him from any attempts to sneak away. His teammates (e.g., Jens Voigt, the Schlecks, Cancellara, etc...) have enough ability to prevent ANYONE from trying to break away from the peloton.
2) If a cyclist collapses/gets injured in an accident, the whole peloton generally slows down a little so that an injury may be treated. It's good sportsmanship. For example, when Pereiro crashed in the mountains, the whole peloton eased off the pace until it was determined that he wouldn't be back in the race.
3) The only racing tomorrow will be for the sprinters. The green jersey is Freire's, but you never know what the folks under him will do with the standings. I believe there are two official sprints. You will probably see a bunch sprint for the final stage victory. Even with this, it will be difficult for the sprinters to get away from the yellow jersey by more than a few seconds.

The most famous time I can recall the Paris stage making a difference in the yellow jersey race is the 1989 Greg LeMond time trial, which amounted to a win by 8 seconds.

In a tradition, fairly early on, you should see the yellow jersey sip a little champagne. At some points you'll see the yellow, green white, and polka dot jerseys line up for photos. Lots of teammates will offer protection. Some will ask for photos to be taken.

It's a time to relax, enjoy Paris, and celebrate the Tour. It's probably one of the best places in the world to see a cycling race in person, as you get to see all of these world class cyclists many times. There's a lot of tradition and protocol as to who gets to ride the lead into the Champs.

Cheers,
Lavabe

OldPhiKap
07-26-2008, 07:52 PM
He fell off the starting platform. It looked like the chain came off the bicycle.

It's not close enough to even quibble. 65 seconds is not as close as it sounds.

Please remember several things:
1) Team CSC (Sastre's team) will guard Sastre tomorrow and prevent him from any attempts to sneak away. His teammates (e.g., Jens Voigt, the Schlecks, Cancellara, etc...) have enough ability to prevent ANYONE from trying to break away from the peloton.
2) If a cyclist collapses/gets injured in an accident, the whole peloton generally slows down a little so that an injury may be treated. It's good sportsmanship. For example, when Pereiro crashed in the mountains, the whole peloton eased off the pace until it was determined that he wouldn't be back in the race.
3) The only racing tomorrow will be for the sprinters. The green jersey is Freire's, but you never know what the folks under him will do with the standings. I believe there are two official sprints. You will probably see a bunch sprint for the final stage victory. Even with this, it will be difficult for the sprinters to get away from the yellow jersey by more than a few seconds.

The most famous time I can recall the Paris stage making a difference in the yellow jersey race is the 1989 Greg LeMond time trial, which amounted to a win by 8 seconds.

In a tradition, fairly early on, you should see the yellow jersey sip a little champagne. At some points you'll see the yellow, green white, and polka dot jerseys line up for photos. Lots of teammates will offer protection. Some will ask for photos to be taken.

It's a time to relax, enjoy Paris, and celebrate the Tour. It's probably one of the best places in the world to see a cycling race in person, as you get to see all of these world class cyclists many times. There's a lot of tradition and protocol as to who gets to ride the lead into the Champs.

Cheers,
Lavabe

One of the funniest rides into Paris was a few years ago, when a guy went up the road in a break who had testified that Lance Armstrong had doped. Armstrong took off out of the peleton, shocking everyone. As they scrambled behind, Armstrong caught the breakaway and told them that he was staying unless the dude went back to the peleton. The breakers "convinced" the offending party to drop back with Armstrong.

******

Schumacher is my new favorite non-American rider. What a great couple of days!

Lavabe
07-27-2008, 12:05 PM
Full of tradition today. What a great day for a race!

Weirdest moment: Jens Voigt loses his seat (don't sit down, Jens!!).
Nice moment: The Schleck brothers cross the finish line with hands clasped together.
Waited for this for a while: Quickstep does well with this stage.
Weird moment: Sylvain Chavanel tries to break away. Was he nuts, or what?
Moment that didn't occur: Thunder God didn't have a chance to fire away.
Moment that didn't occur (Part II): Levi & Contador will seek revenge next year.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Ben63
07-27-2008, 12:46 PM
Weirdest moment: Jens Voigt loses his seat (don't sit down, Jens!!).


I missed the race today. Care to elaborate. This doesnt sound possible.

Lavabe
07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
I missed the race today. Care to elaborate. This doesnt sound possible.

Near the end of the race, his seat broke off/came off. Versus didn't show the actual incident; rather they showed Jens riding very gingerly shortly afterwards, lest he sit on the pole that the seat attaches to. Oh my!:eek:

Cheers,
Lavabe

tecumseh
07-27-2008, 03:34 PM
Near the end of the race, his seat broke off/came off. Versus didn't show the actual incident; rather they showed Jens riding very gingerly shortly afterwards, lest he sit on the pole that the seat attaches to. Oh my!:eek:

Cheers,
Lavabe

I don't understand how this happens. I was watching the Alcatraz triathlon and the pro woman who was leading had her pedal come out of the crank.

Ben63
07-27-2008, 03:45 PM
Near the end of the race, his seat broke off/came off. Versus didn't show the actual incident; rather they showed Jens riding very gingerly shortly afterwards, lest he sit on the pole that the seat attaches to. Oh my!:eek:

Cheers,
Lavabe

I would think it must have broken, because if the clip came out it would just slide down the tube. So it must have broken, but I'm sure its carbon fiber so that in and of itself is impressive. I mean Jens is a bigger guy but breaking carbon fiber, thats very interesting.

mapei
07-27-2008, 05:34 PM
One of the funniest rides into Paris was a few years ago, when a guy went up the road in a break who had testified that Lance Armstrong had doped. Armstrong took off out of the peleton, shocking everyone. As they scrambled behind, Armstrong caught the breakaway and told them that he was staying unless the dude went back to the peleton. The breakers "convinced" the offending party to drop back with Armstrong.


That wasn't on the last day into Paris but on a routine road stage earlier in the Tour about 5(?) years ago. Armstrong chased Simeoni down because S had testified that Lance's training doctor, Michele Ferrari, had given him (Simeoni) EPO. (Many of Ferrari's riders were busted for EPO.) It was a case of a champion rider not letting a little guy have his day because the little guy had been a whistle-blower, and it was not one of Lance's better days.

That said . . .

Vive le Tour! This was the best Tour from a fan's standpoint that I can remember. (I wasn't watching coverage in 1989.) All the key stages were contested, and the outcome was in doubt all the way to the penultimate day. There were attacks all over the place. And CSC, wow. I'm sorry it's over!

It's great to see a rider like Sastre, who is a very humble man and has paid his dues in the peloton for a long time, finish in yellow, with his kids on the podium. Any of the top 5 is easy to root for, really. Chapeau Carlos!

And I'm impressed with Schumacher, too! He, Kohl, and Andy Schleck were the revelations for me. I LOVE seeing new blood come into a sport. CVV was a revelation of sorts, too: even though he's very familiar, I had no idea he had the class of a grand tour contender. He was superb.

I'm a little disappointed that I never heard Paul Sherwen say, as he always does, "the peloton has literally exploded!" I did manage to catch several "my goodness, me" moments from Phil, though, along with multiple mentions of various riders "turning their pedals in anger." That's sort of what I did this afternoon, too, as I rode home after getting caught in a thunderstorm.

OldPhiKap
07-27-2008, 07:46 PM
That wasn't on the last day into Paris but on a routine road stage earlier in the Tour about 5(?) years ago.

That's not my recollection but your avitar lends credibility to your memory.

If it wasn't the ride in, it certainly was in a flat stage the day before when the race was already over.

But I am almost certain it was on the road to Paris.


C'est la vie. Quelle grande course de bicyclette! Bobke longtemps de phase!

hughgs
07-27-2008, 10:08 PM
So you're right, I'll give you that, I have no legit proof Lance cheated and I shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. My bad. HOWEVER... this thread is entitled "Tour de France 2008" and so I don't want to start a back and forth of did he/didn't he but this is my $.02.

That being said, even without proof I believe Lance cheated. The nature of the sport during his time was using PEDs to gain an advantage. By nature cycling is the perfect sport for doping. Any idiot can pedal a bicycle, you can, I can, anyone can. The key to bike racing is strength and endurance. PEDs will give you this advantage. It has been said before and said again, steroids dont help you hit the fastball, just hit it further. Baseball players still need God-given ability to play in the pros. Cyclists have no special skill. They just need to pedal harder and longer than everyone else.

I have read David Walsh's book From Lance to Landis and by no stretch of the imagination do I believe all of the accusations that are made in it but what is does do is give a pretty good idea of the mindset of the teams and cyclists themselves. The feeling was "I can't compete without taking what he's taking." The drug rampage was almost more mental than physical. When you are behind someone climbing a mountain your brain is telling you, "I saw the guy ahead of me take EPO last night, how the hell am I supposed to keep up on this mountain." So Rider A starts taking EPO later that week and realizes how much it really does help, because the benefits are quite tremendous. This is how the drugs spread, and it undoubtedly found its way to Lance Armstrong.

Once again this is just my opinion and the jury will always be out. There will never be solid proof so believe what you want to believe. Trust me I would love to say I think Lance was clean, but to me that is clearly not the case.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, I was on my bike the past week.

Thanks for the clarification. I think that reasonable minds can disagree about the innocence or guilt of Lance, but that it's important that we state very clearly whether we KNOW that they are guilty or whether we THINK they're guilty.

DukieInKansas
07-28-2008, 12:42 AM
That's not my recollection but your avitar lends credibility to your memory.

If it wasn't the ride in, it certainly was in a flat stage the day before when the race was already over.

But I am almost certain it was on the road to Paris.


C'est la vie. Quelle grande course de bicyclette! Bobke longtemps de phase!

I'm with mapei on this - it wasn't on the final stage into Paris, but I don't remember exactly which stage, but sometime in the final week. I also didn't think it was Lance's finest moment.

I remember '89 - CBS gave the ending before they aired their coverage: Promo for the coverage said that Lemond won. It was still fun to watch - but the suspense for that final time trial was gone. It was an amazing ride - and the last time they had a time trial on the final day.

I hope they restore the TTT next year - preferably without the stupid rule about how much time an individual can loose.

TNTDevil
07-28-2008, 08:58 AM
One small nit to pick, I didn't care much for Versus attempting to "Americanize" the coverage with their "Enhanced Prime Time Coverage" (which I don't usually watch unless I miss the "Live" show).

Craig "Where did this guy come from" Hummer and Bobke simply parroting what Phil and Paul said on the "Live" broadcast... I don't know it just seemed lame. Don't misunderstand me, I love Bob Rolle, who really seemed to blossom on the 8pm shows but, they just seemed, um... phony.

Now I understand that Versus has to do what they can to boost its US viewership but, I'm not clear how having two Brits, who have encyclopedic knowledge of cycling and a plethora of "pet" phrases, calling the race is such a turn-off for Americans.

One thing (actually two) I won't miss- those god-for-saken "TapOut" and "Contender Muay Thai" promos...

Lavabe
07-28-2008, 10:47 AM
Now I understand that Versus has to do what they can to boost its US viewership but, I'm not clear how having two Brits, who have encyclopedic knowledge of cycling and a plethora of "pet" phrases, calling the race is such a turn-off for Americans.

One thing (actually two) I won't miss- those god-for-saken "TapOut" and "Contender Muay Thai" promos...

There's simply no way Versus gets rid of Phil and Paul. That'll turn off the cycling enthusiasts in one fell swoop, thereby eliminating most of the audience.

Name me one pair of American announcers who do NOT have their own pet phrases.;)

I fully agree with your comment about the Muay Thai promos. And Hummer is still learning. I don't care for him yet.

Cheers,
Lavabe

DukieInKansas
07-28-2008, 11:34 AM
It only took one "enhanced coverage" viewing to make me remember why I tape the live coverage and watch it at night. It's hard to play Phil & Paul bingo if they are only covering the last half hour at night. I did enjoy having Johan Bruyneel on during the last week but will be much happier if he is in a team car next year.

I'm grateful for the coverage we do get - I started watching in the Lemond years where there was only 15 minutes or so on Saturdays and Sundays during le Tour.

TNTDevil
07-28-2008, 12:03 PM
...I'm grateful for the coverage we do get - I started watching in the Lemond years where there was only 15 minutes or so on Saturdays and Sundays during le Tour.YES! YES! And YES! I neglected to mention that I am happy that we do get the coverage we get. Like you I have been a big fan of cycling for many years and have long lamented the dirth of coverage. So, I'm willing to cut Versus a break and say "thanks".

One thing they do get a "thumbs down" on is dropping the Giro and Vuelta in favor of the "Sunday Cyclism" highlight shows. I mean come on, they don't have enough programming now to fill their air so what's more cycling gonna' hurt?

I think next year they are planning to cover the Tour of California so that's something. And they did extend the contract for "Le Tour" for several more years.

One of the most hilarious moments of this Tour happened to me in the locker room of my YMCA. The TV was tuned to one of the ESPN "Bloviator" shows where all these "experts" comment on the sports happenings of the day, and the first doping busts had just occurred. Well, one of these slobs starts on this big tirade: "The whole sport (cycling) is dirty! Everyone of those guys cheats! WE gotta' shut this thing down!"

Riiiigggghhhhhtttt... these idiots wouldn't know a Grand Tour vs. a one day classic and pay so little attention to Cycling it's laughable. Yet, these guys are so willing to "shut down" Pro Cycling because it's "dirty". Good thing baseball is so um... clean.

ETA- Sweet! Jeff Mullins!

mapei
07-28-2008, 12:22 PM
Unfortunately, Mike Wilbon was one of the ones piling on over the doping incidents. Fortunately, that occurred near the beginning, and we were treated to a wonderful Tour as it went on.

For years I have maintained that Phil and Paul are the best commentators in any sport on TV. And most hardcore fans I know time-shift their coverage and watch it in the evenings instead of the "enhanced" show. But, I have to admit, Roll has grown on me, and I really like Hummer.

Bit of trivia: The Bob Roll chair was orginally destined for Davis Phinney, who had to back out when his Parkinson's was diagnosed.

Speaking of the bad-old-days before good TV coverage, am I the only one who used to call some 900 number every day to find out what happened, pre-internet? You'd get about a 3-minute radio-type spot. I think it was only available for a couple of years, and it was all we had!

DukieInKansas
07-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Mapei - no 900 number for me. But in the internet era, I have followed live coverage on line in a language I don't speak.

Lavabe
07-28-2008, 12:29 PM
I saw some of the coverage that French TV fed to Madagascar. Back then we got only two hours of nightly TV in the main square where I was in Madagascar. Still, watching LeMond was a treat. As it turned out, we had more Tour coverage than did the US.

In contrast, in 2004, satellite TVs were available all over the city, and I could see the French coverage very easily. Oddly enough, I was also there to see a criterion stage of the Tour de Madagascar.:eek:

Cheers,
Lavabe

TNTDevil
07-28-2008, 12:32 PM
Unfortunately, Mike Wilbon was one of the ones piling on over the doping incidents. Fortunately, that occurred near the beginning, and we were treated to a wonderful Tour as it went on.The show on which my quote happened was (I think) "Around The Horn". Is that one of the ESPN "Talking Head" shows?


For years I have maintained that Phil and Paul are the best commentators in any sport on TV. And most hardcore fans I know time-shift their coverage and watch it in the evenings instead of the "enhanced" show. But, I have to admit, Roll has grown on me, and I really like Hummer.

Bit of trivia: The Bob Roll chair was orginally destined for Davis Phinney, who had to back out when his Parkinson's was diagnosed.I've got no real problem with Hummer, I just don't know how much he really knows about the sport, most of his comments, when I watched, were rip-offs of what Paul or Phil said during the "Live" show. I'm convinced that Phil and Paul sandbagged their stage win picks in order to "puff-up" Hummer's cred. I'm sure though that, in the long-run, he'll come into his own.

And, yes, I had heard that Davis was to get that seat...


Speaking of the bad-old-days before good TV coverage, am I the only one who used to call some 900 number every day to find out what happened, pre-internet? You'd get about a 3-minute radio-type spot. I think it was only available for a couple of years, and it was all we had!I never did it per se but, had friends who would call. I just asked them. I was too cheap!

OldPhiKap
07-28-2008, 03:47 PM
Bring back the Giro d'Italia in prime time!!!

arbee
07-29-2008, 10:23 AM
That's not my recollection but your avitar lends credibility to your memory.

If it wasn't the ride in, it certainly was in a flat stage the day before when the race was already over.

But I am almost certain it was on the road to Paris.


C'est la vie. Quelle grande course de bicyclette! Bobke longtemps de phase!

Armstrong chased down Filippo Simeoni on Friday July 23, 2004, on the 18th stage, 2 days before the final into Paris. Read about it here: http://www.velonews.com/article/6653. Or here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/jul/24/tourdefrance2004.tourdefrance1.

OldPhiKap
07-29-2008, 11:03 AM
Armstrong chased down Filippo Simeoni on Friday July 23, 2004, on the 18th stage, 2 days before the final into Paris. Read about it here: http://www.velonews.com/article/6653. Or here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/jul/24/tourdefrance2004.tourdefrance1.

I refuse to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

It was the last day, just on the outskirts of Paris. It caused Jan Ullrich to blow his final gasket. There was blood in the streets. The dogs had their day.


(funny how memory plays with you. Thanks to the two or three of you who ruined my fond memory -- er, corrected my errant remembrances).

TNTDevil
07-29-2008, 12:29 PM
I refuse to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

It was the last day, just on the outskirts of Paris. It caused Jan Ullrich to blow his final gasket. There was blood in the streets. The dogs had their day.


(funny how memory plays with you. Thanks to the two or three of you who ruined my fond memory -- er, corrected my errant remembrances).
You forgot the part where Lance whipped out a frame pump and whipped the tar out of the offender to the cheers of the crowd and local gendarmes... :rolleyes:

mapei
07-29-2008, 06:16 PM
Incidentally, after a journeyman career, and just before the Tour, 37-year-old Fillipo Simeoni finally compensated for his humiliation by Lance by winning the Italian national cycling championship (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun30news). Good for him. The peloton apparently just barely missed catching his solo break.

OldPhiKap
07-29-2008, 10:13 PM
Speaking of Italy -- while I'm a big TDF fan, my first cycling love was the Giro d'Italia. I really wish VS would bring back prime time coverage.

pietro
07-29-2008, 10:43 PM
I refuse to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Actually, the Simeoni/Armstrong feud did continue to fester on the last day.

Check out Simeoni attacking from the gun (http://pages.citebite.com/h6p9a5l9rtxf) during the "parade" portion of the final stage temporarily putting the photo ops and champagne swigging on the back burner.

Armstrong, and much of the peloton, was pissed but I thought it was quite a show of bravado by Simeoni. And as mapei noted, Simeoni won the Italian national road title this year ahead of many of the Italian pros who publicly belittled him during the Tour and for years afterwards. Simeoni was set to retire at the end of this season, but now he'll ride one more year to honor his jersey.

DukieInKansas
07-29-2008, 11:35 PM
I hope VS does some good coverage of the Vuelta a Espana - especially Stage 13. They included Angliru again this year. The first year they used that as a mountain top finish, I thought it was the cruelest route I had seen. It was raining by the time they got to the final climb. The turns were so steep and the roads so wet that the cars lost traction on the climb and riders were getting caught behind them. David Millar made it to the end and removed his number to put it on the road just before the finish, abandoning the race in protest of the climb. I hope it doesn't rain on them this year.

PumpkinFunk
08-01-2008, 12:21 PM
Speaking of Italy -- while I'm a big TDF fan, my first cycling love was the Giro d'Italia. I really wish VS would bring back prime time coverage.

The Giro this year was a lot better (Contador was a huge plus), although... now, I'm pretty sure Ricco was doped, so that could change my view of it. Sella was by far the most exciting rider in it this year. And the Vuelta, in-between the Olympics and World Champs, should be a fun one to watch.

Lavabe
08-01-2008, 12:40 PM
What is the status with CSC sponsorship? Given the success of the Tour this year, is it too late to hope that CSC will return with Saxo Bank?

I hope to see Contador, Horner, & Levi take on folks sooner, rather than later.

The God of Thunder is out of the Olympics. I hope Cavendish will be ready.;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

hughgs
08-02-2008, 10:10 AM
What is the status with CSC sponsorship? Given the success of the Tour this year, is it too late to hope that CSC will return with Saxo Bank?

I hope to see Contador, Horner, & Levi take on folks sooner, rather than later.

The God of Thunder is out of the Olympics. I hope Cavendish will be ready.;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

I thought Saxo was taking over primary sponsorship of the team. It's pretty standard for teams to transition before the TdF.

mapei
08-03-2008, 02:59 PM
I thought Saxo was taking over primary sponsorship of the team. It's pretty standard for teams to transition before the TdF.

That's my understanding as well. But I think it's at the end of the season.

hughgs
08-03-2008, 07:20 PM
That's my understanding as well. But I think it's at the end of the season.

You're right (or at least I agree with you). What I meant by transition was that the TdF seems to be where the future primary sponsor starts as a secondary sponsor and then takes over at the end of the year. In this case the team became CSC-Saxo and will (assumably) become Saxo at the end of the year.

mapei
08-03-2008, 10:27 PM
On a related topic, I've always found it really odd that the TdF is typically where the riders get and sometimes negotiate and sign offers from new teams. How can you do that while trying to ride flat-out 125 miles per day for three weeks over the Alps, Pyrenees and Massif Central, trying to do your best and be loyal to your current team? And shouldn't the DS be trying to accomplish his objectives in this year's Tour instead of recruiting? It doesn't make sense to me, but I read about it all the time.

hughgs
08-04-2008, 07:57 AM
On a related topic, I've always found it really odd that the TdF is typically where the riders get and sometimes negotiate and sign offers from new teams. How can you do that while trying to ride flat-out 125 miles per day for three weeks over the Alps, Pyrenees and Massif Central, trying to do your best and be loyal to your current team? And shouldn't the DS be trying to accomplish his objectives in this year's Tour instead of recruiting? It doesn't make sense to me, but I read about it all the time.

Yeah, when I read reports about what the riders do during the rest of the day, I wonder how they have time to get back to the hotel, eat, get a massage, nap, eat, discuss tactics, negotiate a contract, get another massage, not walk, and sleep. All before midnight. I can't even get off my couch to turn on the TV!

Lavabe
08-06-2008, 01:52 PM
ESPN's Bonnie Ford has a good and long piece on the team:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/slipstreamfour

Cheers,
Lavabe