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BlueintheFace
07-04-2008, 01:20 PM
We have all been talking about the returning starters, Scheyer, Nolan, Marty, Zoubek, and the incoming freshman, but I haven't even seen the name Dave McClure on this message board in months. How will our 5th year senior fit in on this team... what role will he play?

He got 9 minutes a game last season with health issues. So how about next season? The front court has now become surprisingly full...

jimsumner
07-04-2008, 02:11 PM
An intruiging question and one whose answer will not likely be known for some time. On one hand, we've got a savy, defensive-oriented, fifth-year senior, with a nose for the ball and a knack for being in the right-place in the right time.

On the other hand, we've got an oft-injured, under-sized post with limited ball skills who is going to have to hold off two bigger, more gifted freshmen to retain a spot in the rotation.

But there's only 200 player-minutes to go around and it's hard to come up with a plausible scenario in which McClure, Czyz, and Plumlee all get major PT. So, this will be an interesting sub-plot all fall and maybe into the season.

wilko
07-04-2008, 02:33 PM
He is one of my current faves.
He gets in there and does the dirty work.
Last yr he was hobbled, or so it seemed. Did he complain or make excuses? NOPE!

Tremendous respect and appreciation for this guy.

He and Marty are my dark horse contributors that make this a special yr.

DevilDan
07-04-2008, 04:19 PM
I too hope that David McClure can contribute to this year's team. He can "D", he's good at clogging passing lanes, he can board. His greatest moment was when he took the long pass and made a clutch athletic move to lay it in, and beat Clemson a couple of seasons ago.

He's a hard worker ... I would go nuts if he could drain a 10-12 footer (which he has worked to get before, but either hesitated, passed up, or missed). It might only take one or two of those to get him going. It's a fairly similar scenario to Marty.

Maybe these two will play a role this year ...

Just another dimension that this team could have, in what could very well be an outstanding season !

dukemomLA
07-05-2008, 02:13 AM
It seems to me that Duke could field two teams of five that would rival most other teams in the NCAA.

My prayer is that Coach K will be inspired from his work with the future-gold winning BB team to use each player wisely, to substitute in-and-out at will. Will continue to stress the importance of defense while pushing for an uptempo game. And of course, more (at times) 2-3 zone when needed.

My HOPE is that this team can develop camaradie and chemistry. That would be awesome, but will only happen if they push each other to excel -- and if Coach K gives each who is deserving many minutes of PT.

There is the talent there to sub over and over again -- keeping all players healthy and rested for March/April. Believe me I know that has not been Coach K's MO. Is it time for a change? There are so many players on this team with the potential to be the 'star' to be the 'break-out player.' Can't wait to see who rises to the top.

Yeah....I know this is all my pipe dream (...and an actual dream that occurs often). But truly, I would love to have no more transfers of players with potential.

Can't wait to see a healthy Doug Mc and Brian Z. Can't wait to see if Jon S has bulked up a bit and added some muscle and strength to his exceptional game. Can't wait to see Paulus continue to take charge. Can't wait to see the remarkable Gerald H blow opponents out of the water. etc. etc. etc.

This COULD be a team.... well, the sky's the limit. And yes, UNC with their returning-not-ready-for-the-NBA-primetime-players will be a force to be reckoned with. But, let's not count our guys out.

Go Duke. Go USA.

jimsumner
07-05-2008, 10:56 AM
"Can't wait to see a healthy Doug Mc and Brian Z"

Doug McNeely's coming back? Cool. :)

slower
07-05-2008, 11:26 AM
I thought she meant Doug McClure, although he seems a bit long in the tooth. Maybe he has eligibility left? (Oops! According to Google, he died in 1995.)

shadowfax336
07-05-2008, 12:04 PM
I've been wondering about McClure. People forget that it was his injury that really took the wind out of the sails of the team 2 years ago. When he went down, we really collapsed. He's one of those guys who just makes things happen when he's on the floor, even if its tough to see sometimes. Right place, right time, pick your cliche, he's a good bball player and I'm betting K finds some minutes for him along the way, probably in some big moments.

Edouble
07-05-2008, 12:43 PM
It seems to me that Duke could field two teams of five that would rival most other teams in the NCAA.

I'd be happy fielding one team of five that could reach the Sweet 16. :o

gumbomoop
07-05-2008, 12:48 PM
I'm a first-time poster (and possibly last-time, as I fear my off-beat perspective will gain no converts and many critics). Duke grad school several decades ago, Duke bb fanatic, yet one who also thinks Dean was a brilliant, incredibly creative coach. (I might have lost all readers right there......)

I want to use Wilko's short comment yesterday concerning McC and Pocius, with which I agree--these 2 should get more PT. Clearly the 08-09 team will have lots of depth; and there have been many posts last few weeks re PT, guesses about minutes, etc. Re McC, somebody posted long, long ago--probably when we were all dismayed at loss to W Va--that he sort of disappeared deep into the bench in 2d half, despite the fact that he played the best--actually pretty good--defense against Alexander. My firm view, surely shared to some extent by many of you, is that McC is a real smart glue guy, tough defender (yes, Levance Fields simply played a tad better on that last-sec shot), surprisingly clever passer who knows his limits, and..... a very good shot blocker (go to the videotape). Limited offensively, true, but K's got 5-6 guys who can and will score, and McC can score a bit more with PT and simple confidence and encouragement.

Ditto for Pocius--and here's where I'll lose most of those still with me. If--big IF--Scheyer could accept another 6th man role, to which he is perfectly well suited, in which he still will get 25-28 minutes, nearly first on team, and which role will get him plenty of admiration and publicity, not to mention 13-14 ppg--if, if, if, then Pocius could start. Crazy? Perhaps, but the player most in need of encouragement and confidence, maybe even more than Z and T, is P. As a surprise starter, an explosive P could produce 8-10 ppg in his 16-18 minutes. He would not be in the game in last 8-10 minutes, when every defensive play counts.

Such a scenario--more than expected PT for both McM and P--would, of course cut down on PT for somebody: certainly less for all 3 frosh, and for T and Z. Which leads to my final, awkward point. I'm not fully persuaded that Z's issues are totally injuries. It's commonly acknowledged that's he's a project, which is no embarrassment, if handled sensibly. Like this: Z maybe should redshirt. I believe, on balance, that he would be much better off and far more prductive as a 2010-11 senior, and the 08-09 team will not benefit substantially from his likely 12-15 minutes. I'm skeptical that he can be productive for the 20 min/game that several posters have predicted. Beyond the fact of yet another slowing injury, he needs work on several facets of his game. His absence opens minutes for McC, Plumlee, and Czyz. The very best, and to my (squirrely) mind only, really good argument for Z this year is that in a few instance the team really, really needs a big, big guy. But those instances truly are few, and on balance McC is a much more valuable defender of 6'7"-6'8" guys. For 6'9"-6'11" guys? T, Plumlee, Czyz, and occasionally Singler?

I acknowledge that Z could be fully recovered, play reasonably well for 18 min/game, with more experience than Plumlee and Czyz--but not more and smarter experience than McC. Anyhow, there are simply not enough minutes for 12 players, and it looks like K might have 2 or 3 players who will drift into DNP-land by February.

Beyond my strange speculations, however, it's pretty clear that on paper this is a potential Final 4 team.

Edouble
07-05-2008, 01:05 PM
If Pocius is really that good, I like the idea of him starting, but I've never really seen him do too much. He had that one game where Majerus raved about his calves and a few spotty flashes of brilliance here and there, but that's about it. Scheyer's been brilliant consistently, plus EWill looks to be a gamer. If Pocius is really a player, he deserves PT.

Z was coming on at the end of last year. I think now is not the time for a red shirt. Lance has shown he can't be the one to guard the opposing team's big guy, and we saw how Kyle got worn out by it last year. I don't think it's unrealistic from what I've seen of Z for him to develop into a reliable defender. I think Pocius having value as a starter is much more of a stretch. That said, I loved your post. Even though I disagree with a lot of it, you have a pretty intelligent and creative basketball brain, which I certainly like in a poster.

DevilDan
07-05-2008, 01:06 PM
Gumbomoop's points are duly noted. Marty could play a role in this year's very deep and talented team--but starting him? That's a real stretch. It's a long-distance observation, based on what I've seen so far. I don't think it comes down to "Marty or Jon?", but I'd take a stronger Jon in a heartbeat, with his skill set.

And on the subject of Brian, this man needs to play this year, IF physically ready to go. Last year, he had no equal to go up against in practice. This year, he and Miles can compete with each other every day, and learn. With frontcourt candidates Zoubek, Plumlee, Czyz, and Thomas, we have the makings of having some inside presence this year on both ends. If this team can develop inside, it takes a lot of extra assignments off of Kyle's shoulders--and if that happens, we'll get to see just what an outstanding player HE is. Add Mason in 2009-10, and look out for DUKE.

Still, I look for some good minutes from Marty and David. Good post, GBM !

jv001
07-05-2008, 03:14 PM
He got 9 minutes a game last season with health issues. So how about next season? The front court has now become surprisingly full...[/QUOTE]

If Dave's minutes are more than last years, we could be in big trouble. I agree 2 years ago he was looking like he would be a huge contributor to the team. Then he was hurt and has not looked like the same player since. The opposition gives him freedom to shoot from 10 feet out. We need for Zoubs to play at least 15 to 20 mins and get contributions from; Thomas, Olek and Miles at the center position. If we do then we will be fine. I like, Bob Green think Zoubs will be much improved if he is healthy. He does not have to score a ton of points. Just rebound and play "D".

Davidson09
07-05-2008, 03:22 PM
Yeah... I hope he is able to contribute solid minutes as well. I don't remember him too much, but I remember him being one of those guys who does the dirty work, and does it well. and doesn't complain.

wilko
07-05-2008, 04:35 PM
I dont think we have seen a full season with Marty and Dave 100%.

Dave is a really, really good undersized defender. He has great instinsts for being near the ball. Last yr he was burned when the other teams kicked the ball out from the post. His speed just wasnt there to make the recovery to perimeter. But he never made excuses.

He won a game for us at Clemson with a last second dunk, and has made key plays in tight games. I fully expect his savvy and full health to get us at least 2 wins based on being in the right place at the right time and making a play.

I remember as a frosh, he made a bad play, got removed from the game and got an earful from K. It prolly looked worse than it was, but it was snippet taken out of context.. the announcers noticed and went on about it for a bit..

Did he pout, get a tatoo or transfer? No! He man-upped and was determined to do better.

He was asked about it later and he blew it off... "I deserved it, I made a bonehead play..." MUCH respect.

Marty may be our secret weapon. I say that cuz I have no idea what he can do. I know he almost won a game vs: State yr before last and he carried us. IF IF he can find some consistency and bring some of that every nite for 10 min or so.... then wow!

Im not so worried with who starts... greg/nolan.... elliot/marty/jon.
I think we have enuff weapons to have our version of 40 min of Hell and go full throttle. We have a deep backcourt and frontcourt.... we hit the NOS and dont back off till the horn sounds..

BlueintheFace
07-05-2008, 06:44 PM
It seems to me that Duke could field two teams of five that would rival most other teams in the NCAA.

If there is just one reason for us to believe that the team will get better as the year goes on then I think that reason is "constant competition."

Imagine the scrimmages that could happen every day

Team1-
Paulus
E. Williams
Henderson
McClure
Zoubek

Team2-
Smith
Scheyer
Pocius
Singler
Thomas

Subs- Plumlee, Czyz, Davidson ( Just put the lower rated incoming freshmen and Davidson on the bench so nobody have a fit here)

... mix and repeat for best outcome.

Now, THAT aint bad. I'd pay good money to see that on TV throughout the season instead of just once at the beginning. Those boys will be pushed competitively every minute in practice and will be better for it.

Saratoga2
07-06-2008, 09:37 AM
If there is just one reason for us to believe that the team will get better as the year goes on then I think that reason is "constant competition."

Imagine the scrimmages that could happen every day

Team1-
Paulus
E. Williams
Henderson
McClure
Zoubek

Team2-
Smith
Scheyer
Pocius
Singler
Thomas

Subs- Plumlee, Czyz, Davidson ( Just put the lower rated incoming freshmen and Davidson on the bench so nobody have a fit here)

... mix and repeat for best outcome.

Now, THAT aint bad. I'd pay good money to see that on TV throughout the season instead of just once at the beginning. Those boys will be pushed competitively every minute in practice and will be better for it.

We have hashed out who the starters might be, although it will really be decided by the practice competition you speak of. There is every reason to believe that Scheyer, Henderson and Singler will start. They will probably be joined by Paulus and Thomas but certainly Smith and Zoubek have a good chance of starting. We have two experienced guys who should be healthy for the season's start in McClure and Pocius and they should get some time. Then there is an abundance of talent in the new guys Williams, Czyz and Plumlee. What that makes the team is deep at every position with the possible exception of center. There should be less concern about injuries causing the team to have a fall off in their play this year.

SilkyJ
07-06-2008, 11:16 AM
He and Marty are my dark horse contributors that make this a special yr.

I just don't think the minutes are there for marty. I feel like both guys can play and contribute on this team, but in terms of returning players and MPG, marty is most directly competing against Scheyer (#2 in mpg) and Gerald (#4) and I would expect both of them, along with Kyle to be in the top 3 in mpg next year. Those guys are ACC starters and have been since they were freshman. Marty just isn't of the same caliber and can't/won't displace their minutes. Mix in the fact that we know nolan and greg can see the floor at the same time there just aren't minutes for marty in this backcourt. That's not so much a knock on him as it is confidence that we have multiple all-acc players in our backcourt.

The good news is both are good enough to play in the ACC so we have depth if we get into foul trouble or whatever.

wilko
07-06-2008, 03:49 PM
I never meant to say Marty could lead the team in played.
Just that he should get some opportunities if hes 100%.

We all know that as last season wore on Markie and Kyle hit a wall. G had a wrist problem.
How nice would it have been for Marty or another player just to jump in and give a lift while G was figuring out how to play with his injured hand?

I think that depending on matchups, hows hot on a given day and tempo he could get a steal a few here and there... especially early in the season if his rehab is ahead of the curve and he is more game ready.

Same holds true for Dave. I love the guys play and attitude. Hope he is at full speed.

Tempo is a real key for the returning and new players. Assuming the D stays constant, we could be relentless.

gumbomoop
07-06-2008, 05:35 PM
Just to be clear, it was I, not Wilko, who tiptoed out onto the loony limb, by suggesting not only that McC get substantially increased mpg, but that Pocius.....start. Now I didn't say that P is better than Scheyer, which he is not; nor that he should get more mpg than S, also a no. Rather, under my slightly daft scenario, S is not being subjected to a continuing demotion. Indeed, he still gets 25-28 mpg, 13-14 ppg, plenty of publicity (S and Danny Green or Marcus Ginyard in season-long contest for nation's best 6th man) and loads of admiration. Including mine: S is smart though not quick defensively, excellent passer, and a game-taker-over-for-10-minutes. He's a star, as I believe the Duke coaches had to remind him last year, when he deferred a bit too much at one point. As a starter, P gets a chance (yes, if healthy and actually as talented as I suspect) to explode occasionally, gets 16-18 mpg (for awhile, see if he's got it), but doesn't play at game's end, when defense on every play is crucial.

Re Z, I am persuaded by the comments of Edouble and DevilDan that I'm just halucinating about a redshirt for Z. My concern, however, won't disappear, and many of you share it, for the most ironic of reasons: we are becoming quite optimistic about depth chart. We hear rumours (or maybe some of you are spreading them....) that Plumlee and Czyz have some-talent-now-plus-
big-upside. Upside? Are there any teams deeper, on paper, than Carolina and Duke? Any? OK, good, I thought not. But downside: not nearly enough mpg for 12 guys. (Let Roy solve his 11-deep problem; we gotta help K....)

So, I admit I'm looking to redshirt someone, and Z seemed most likely candidate. Well, maybe LT? If he can't really guard bigs, does he slip toward DNP or 2 mpg by Feb? Would he benefit from a year of development? Or maybe Czyz could do a Will Graves.....

It's only my intuition, a product not of expertise but of attention, that P's explosive offense and McC's smart defense and passing, and very surprising (unless you've been paying attention) shot-blocking, are gonna get lost in the shuffle. The good news--not for those 2 individually but for Duke bball collectively--is that if those 2 drop to bottom of depth chart, 08-09 will see 30+ wins and Final Four.

Come to think of it, no matter where those 2 are on depth chart, we're in high cotton. Never mind......

Edouble
07-06-2008, 11:28 PM
So, I admit I'm looking to redshirt someone, and Z seemed most likely candidate. Well, maybe LT? If he can't really guard bigs, does he slip toward DNP or 2 mpg by Feb? Would he benefit from a year of development? Or maybe Czyz could do a Will Graves.....



Can you please put your shirts back in the hamper, sir! :D

I think that with all the game experience that LT's had, it's a little late to redshirt him now. He'll have the summer to do individual work and hopefully get a little stronger, but it seems to me that if he's going to play at a really high level in the ACC, now is as good a time as any to do it. Maybe he'll never be a star in the ACC, maybe he will, but I'm not sure that a year off would really do anything. I've seen guys big and small (Jason Williams, Avery, Shav) gain a ton of weight and strength in the off-season. I don't think that he needs a year off to do that. As far as being more productive in games, a little more ferocity and a little less sliding would go a long way for LT, and I don't think a year off would help him out in those departments either.

jimsumner
07-07-2008, 09:29 AM
All of this talk of redshirting is wasted breath, IMO. Mike Krzyzewski has always been very reluctant to redshirt for reasons other than injuries. Matt Christensen in 1999 is the only recent non-injury redshirt and those circumstances were highly unusual; Matt was returning from a two-year Mormon mission.

if K wouldn't redshirt raw, freshman bigs like Casey Sanders, Michael Thompson, or Eric Boateng, then it's highly unlikely he would redshirt a junior like Zoubek or Thomas.

Wander
07-07-2008, 10:03 AM
I think the main reason for McClure's decline from 07 to 08 is the change in our style of play - I see him as much more effective in a slow game.

wilko
07-07-2008, 10:13 AM
I think the main reason for McClure's decline from 07 to 08 is the change in our style of play - I see him as much more effective in a slow game.

Possibly, but Im inclined to give him the benfit fo the doubt. We've yet to see him play a whole season injury free. Maybe 2 good knees can help him find an extra gear.

SilkyJ
07-07-2008, 10:43 AM
Just to be clear, it was I, not Wilko, who tiptoed out onto the loony limb, by suggesting not only that McC get substantially increased mpg, but that Pocius.....start. Now I didn't say that P is better than Scheyer, which he is not; nor that he should get more mpg than S, also a no. Rather, under my slightly daft scenario, S is not being subjected to a continuing demotion. Indeed, he still gets 25-28 mpg, 13-14 ppg, plenty of publicity (S and Danny Green or Marcus Ginyard in season-long contest for nation's best 6th man) and loads of admiration. Including mine: S is smart though not quick defensively, excellent passer, and a game-taker-over-for-10-minutes. He's a star, as I believe the Duke coaches had to remind him last year, when he deferred a bit too much at one point. As a starter, P gets a chance (yes, if healthy and actually as talented as I suspect) to explode occasionally, gets 16-18 mpg (for awhile, see if he's got it), but doesn't play at game's end, when defense on every play is crucial.


To quote one of the most quotable movies of all time: I'd like to be pimps from oakland or cowboys from arizona, but its not halloween.

thought-provoking, interesting, and even surprising/contrarian points of view are great, especially in the off-season, but the talk of marty starting is just absolutely ridiculous. come on, dude.

Classof06
07-07-2008, 11:37 AM
Realistically speaking, I just don't see how McClure or Marty get legit burn next year. McClure still has an extremely limited offensive skill set and he's not a true wing or a true big man. Marty has a host of wing players in front of him. I'm not saying neither kid is going to play but they'll have their work cut out for them.

There are only so many minutes in a game and as Duke's roster improves (which I believe it has with the additions of MP1, Czyz and EWill), I think it makes it that much harder for these two to differentiate themselves.

wilko
07-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Realistically speaking, I just don't see how McClure or Marty get legit burn next year. McClure still has an extremely limited offensive skill set and he's not a true wing or a true big man. Marty has a host of wing players in front of him. I'm not saying neither kid is going to play but they'll have their work cut out for them.

I see what you are saying. I'd be more inclined to share your position if not for the fact that:

1. Z, G, and LT had off-season surgeries, so hopefully they have rehabbed successfully by seasons start.

2. The frosh still have to acclimate and find their niche on the team.


These dynamics create a window of opportunity EARLY in the year for Dave and Marty to challenge, gain confidence, and demonstrate leadership. Im hopeful they will show enuff to become viable options off the bench and keep guys fresh for the durations and not hit the wall as we did last yr.

SilkyJ
07-07-2008, 02:55 PM
These dynamics create a window of opportunity EARLY in the year for Dave and Marty to challenge, gain confidence, and demonstrate leadership.

You're absolutely right that their window, which is narrow, will be very early and they will need to impress from day 1.



Im hopeful they will show enuff to become viable options off the bench and keep guys fresh for the durations and not hit the wall as we did last yr.

I think they can definitely do that, but I think their real value is going to be in keeping practices competitive. They'll be around if someone is in foul trouble, or gets injured etc, but the only person who hit a wall last year was kyle, and unfortunately, neither marty nor dave can do anything about that. Lance/Zoubek and possibly/hopefully olek and MP1 are the only ones who can effect that.

Bob Green
07-07-2008, 03:04 PM
I expect two scholarship players to see little playing time this season. I have no idea which two it will be but I have a hard time visualizing more than 10 players seeing the court on a consistent basis.

Seeing as we have six perimeter players and six interior players a likely scenario is one player from each category being a "practice player" this season.

In the end, I expect we will see an eight man core rotation with two additional role players seeing minutes. The last two will be odd men out.

nicktonyg22
07-07-2008, 03:28 PM
I agree with Bob Green. Although McClure and Pocius are solid and very likeable players, I just don't see their skill sets being much improvement over the other guys who would see minutes. Although we don't know anything for sure about Mi. Plumlee and Olek, I envision the two of them getting minutes over the ever-injured McClure and the defensively-challenged Marty. The latter two would have to truly impress early in the year to push those freshmen to the side.

Here's how I envision our playing time averages to look this season as of right now...this is a season average number because it will obviously vary based on level of competition and matchups (don't look for this breakdown every game is what i'm saying)
(minutes are in parentheses)

Starters

Thomas (19)
Singler (27)
Henderson (27)
Scheyer (27)
Paulus (27)

Reserves

Smith (19)
Zoubek (15)
Williams (15)
Mi. Plumlee (8)
Czyz (8)
McClure (4)
Pocius (4)


I don't see Zoubek being able to go much more than 15 minutes a game this year because of conditioning and getting back on his feet. Williams has gotten less mentioning on this board recently than Czyz or Plumlee because he's another wing and the latter two address our post needs, but he's far and away the best prospect we're bringing in. This means that 15 minutes of PT could certainly increase if he's as impressive as advertised.

The number of minutes for Plumlee and Czyz also depend on their development and ability to play defense. Whether one of them proves to be significantly better than the other and cracks double digit minutes, or the two of them compliment each other by playing between 7-10 minutes a game, I think its a win-win. I would feel very comfortable with 8 men playing 15+ minutes a game with two others playing just under 10 minutes. This, however, leaves minimal action for McClure and Pocius.

wilko
07-07-2008, 05:23 PM
I'll still be rooting for them to do well, as Im sure you will as well.

nicktonyg22
07-07-2008, 05:36 PM
Absolutely! I didn't intend to knock McClure or Pocius, I think they are both great assets to our team and players I enjoy watching. I'm excited to see what they both can do early on in the season. The better they are, the better off Duke is as a whole. Not only will they provide much-needed depth, but will be great practice competition for everyone who is trying to find minutes. The harder and better they play, the harder and better everyone on the team plays.

gumbomoop
07-08-2008, 11:56 AM
I'd guess that nicktonyg22's minutes predictions are pretty good. I'd revise as follows: McC-10; MP1-5; C-5. McC might well get 5 min/half based on defense. Bob Green is almost surely correct that 2 players will be DNP by, say, Jan., and that does probably mean P and maybe C. By that point there are a few extra mpg to go around, which would perhaps shift slightly game-to-game.

This group looks remarkably deep, if...... LT, Z, and MP1 can effectively guard the opposing 5 by rotating committee. I think we all agree--and assume the coaches strongly prefer--that KS not have to guard the 5.

Every reason, therefore, to be optimistic about 08-09.

One more point, and I'd welcome deletions/additions to the following list of on paper deepest teams. I'm thinking here of a likely 10-deep (talented experience + promising frosh) rotation, at least in first half of season.

UNC, Duke, UConn, Mich St, Wake, Gonzaga, Louisville, Georgetown (?), UCLA