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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    West (and Oscar Robertson) were front-court players in college.
    Yes, I guess West played forward in his college days. 6'3 to 6'4 forwards were common in those day. Like Jeff Mullins for Duke. GoDuke!

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Yes, I guess West played forward in his college days. 6'3 to 6'4 forwards were common in those day. Like Jeff Mullins for Duke. GoDuke!
    Jerry West averaged 16.5 rebounds per game as a senior at WVU. Seriously. 16.5 rpg.

    13.3 for his career at WVU.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think Ford was the best player in UNC history. But Kuester brings down the average.

    I suspect I'd rank Felton/McCants and Lawson/Ellington higher.
    Phil Ford... I agree the best player in UNC history.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    Phil Ford... I agree the best player in UNC history.
    But was he pre-season first team all-American as a freshman?

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

    sage
    Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  6. #46
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    Feb 2007
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    Asheville
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.
    Like Lew Alcindor changed the dunking rules for a while, Oz. He didn't need no stinkin' four corners.

    ricks

  7. #47
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Very few players force the rules of college basketball to be changed. Phil Ford did. We wouldn't have a shot clock if he couldn't run the four corners offense as effectively as he did.
    Well, sorta.

    Ford finished his college career in 1978. The ACC got permission to experiment with a shot clock and 3-point shot in 1983. Remember that 17-9, 3-point shot? Mark Price, Terry Gannon and Chip Engelland sure do.

    The death knell for the traditional four corners was the 1982 ACC Tournament title game between North Carolina (Worthy, Perkins, Jordan) and Virginia (Sampson). A national television audience watched some of the nation's best college players stand around and twiddle their thumbs for much of the second half.

    47-45. Enough was enough.

    I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.

    I remember K's first Duke team going over to Reynolds, spreading the court and beating Valvano's first State team 56-47. State returned the favor later that season, 52-51. Duke beat Georgia Tech 47-46 the next season in Cameron, beat State 49-48, beat Clemson 50-44.

    Duke lost at home to Maryland that year 40-36, an abomination that I consider the worst basketball game ever played in Cameron, maybe anywhere.

    So, we're talking about Mike Krzyzewski, Jim Valvano, Bobby Cremins and Lefty Driesell. Duke had four ACC games in 1982 in which fewer than 100 total points were scored.

    So, it was something that was all over the place and something that had to be fixed.

    And it was. I don't know anyone who would go back to the old days. But don't blame Ford. He did what he was asked, when it was legal and did it with extraordinary efficiency. But he didn't start it and he didn't end it.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Well, sorta.

    Ford finished his college career in 1978. The ACC got permission to experiment with a shot clock and 3-point shot in 1983. Remember that 17-9, 3-point shot? Mark Price, Terry Gannon and Chip Engelland sure do.

    The death knell for the traditional four corners was the 1982 ACC Tournament title game between North Carolina (Worthy, Perkins, Jordan) and Virginia (Sampson). A national television audience watched some of the nation's best college players stand around and twiddle their thumbs for much of the second half.

    47-45. Enough was enough.

    I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.

    I remember K's first Duke team going over to Reynolds, spreading the court and beating Valvano's first State team 56-47. State returned the favor later that season, 52-51. Duke beat Georgia Tech 47-46 the next season in Cameron, beat State 49-48, beat Clemson 50-44.

    Duke lost at home to Maryland that year 40-36, an abomination that I consider the worst basketball game ever played in Cameron, maybe anywhere.

    So, we're talking about Mike Krzyzewski, Jim Valvano, Bobby Cremins and Lefty Driesell. Duke had four ACC games in 1982 in which fewer than 100 total points were scored.

    So, it was something that was all over the place and something that had to be fixed.

    And it was. I don't know anyone who would go back to the old days. But don't blame Ford. He did what he was asked, when it was legal and did it with extraordinary efficiency. But he didn't start it and he didn't end it.
    Jim, you think that Maryland game was worse than listening on the radio to the State 12-10 loss that knocked us out of going to the NCAA tournament that year? I remember just going nuts listening to that game.

    ricks

  9. #49
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ricks68 View Post
    Jim, you think that Maryland game was worse than listening on the radio to the State 12-10 loss that knocked us out of going to the NCAA tournament that year? I remember just going nuts listening to that game.

    ricks
    Well, the 12-10 game wasn't in Cameron.

    The problem with the 40-36 game was that iit was boring and horribly played, on both ends. Lefty basically apologized for winning.

    Speaking of rules changes, it's usually the big guys who force the rules changes. George Mikan, Bob Kurland, Russell, Wilt, Alcindor. Goal-tending, basket inteference, 3-second lane, dunking.

    But the ban on dunking sure slowed down Alcindor.

    It also deprived us of watching David Thompson dunk for three seasons. GRRR!!

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Carolina Beach

    21-20

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Well, sorta.



    I know it's easy to demonize Dean Smith on this. But his teams were just better at it. Smith wasn't behind the 12-10 game that Duke lost to State in 1968.
    But Dean was behind the 66 game. That barn burner of a game Duke 21 UNC 20. I believe Mike Lewis hit a free throw to win that one.

  11. #51
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    Feb 2007
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    Asheville
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    But Dean was behind the 66 game. That barn burner of a game Duke 21 UNC 20. I believe Mike Lewis hit a free throw to win that one.
    I think Verga was the leading scorer with 7 points.

    ricks

  12. #52
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    May 2010
    Location
    Triad, NC
    Recently, Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle is hard to beat... Crazy explosive, all good shooters, incredibly versatile...

  13. #53
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePublisher View Post
    Recently, Kyrie, Nolan and Kyle is hard to beat... Crazy explosive, all good shooters, incredibly versatile...
    With all due respect, I can't consider a 6-8 small forward as part of the backcourt.

    Duke had five recruited guards in 2011. Singler wasn't one of them.

  14. #54
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    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    With all due respect, I can't consider a 6-8 small forward as part of the backcourt.

    Duke had five recruited guards in 2011. Singler wasn't one of them.
    Stop covering for K, Jim. Everyone knows that Duke doesn't have any big men. Four guards and a screener.

  15. #55
    The three headed monster of Deron Williams Dee Brown and Luther Head for the Illini in '05 were effective if we consider the Duhon, Ewing, JJ 3-guard model.

    I liked the short-lived combo of Johnny Harrell and Jim Spanarkel back on the '78 FF team. Shame Johnny got lost in the shuffle with Bender as PG the following year.

    ...and oh what an 8 games was the Irving/Nolan combo. They needed just another game or two to find the chemistry once Kyrie returned.


    Jordan and Kenny Smith weren't too shabby. Smith was injured against Indiana halting a potential NC run, but not before they lost to Duke in the ACC Semis, one of the landmark games in Duke basketball history.

    The leaves Hurley + T Hill and Dawkins + Amaker as my top 2 fav Duke backcourts. Those mid 80s teams had a high motor and potent offense.

    I almost want to include Danny Ferry with Quin Snyder in the '87-'89 backcourt. What a complete player in college. Tremendous passer with keen instincts.

  16. #56

    Jordan-Kenny Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Mu View Post
    Jordan and Kenny Smith weren't too shabby. Smith was injured against Indiana halting a potential NC run, but not before they lost to Duke in the ACC Semis, one of the landmark games in Duke basketball history.
    Actually, Kenny Smith was injured long before that Indiana game -- he was hurt Jan. 29, 1984 in a 90-79 victory over No. 10 ranked LSU. UNC was 16-0 and ranked No. 1 in the nation coming into that game. There are those -- including myself -- who consider that as the best ACC team ever (right up there with '74 State and '99 Duke) -- starting senior Sam Perkins (two time concensus first-team All-America), junior Michael Jordan (the national player of the year), sophomore Brad Daugherty (late a first-team A-A and the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft), senior Matt Doherty and freshman Kenny Smith (later a first team A-A). Off the bench, they had future pros Joe Wolf and two pretty good college guards, Steve Hale and Buzz Peterson.

    Before the LSU game, they really weren't tested. Virginia (which would wind up in the Final Four in that first post-Sampson year) played them fairly close in Chapel Hill and a young Dukie team took them to the final minute before losing 78-73 in Cameron (the famous "Double Standard" game). Against LSU, UNC was rolling to a 17th straight easy when when Smith was tackled from behind on a breakaway by LSU guard John Tudor. He suffered a broken wrist.

    Smith was sidelined for a month. Steve Hale took his place in the starting lineup and did well. They got to 21-0 before suffering a one-point loss to No. 14 Arkansas on the road (actually in Pine Bluff). They got to 25-1 before Smith returned for the regular season finale against Duke, wearing a soft cast on his wrist.

    He came off the bench in that game, which went into double OT before UNC pulled out the win in Carmichael. He moved back into the starting lineup for the ACC Tournament. UNC beat Clemson easily in the opener, but lost 77-75 to Duke in the semifinals.

    UNC was still seeded No. 1 and after beating Temple in Charlotte, went to Atlanta and lost to Indiana in the Sweet 16. Smith averaged 33 minutes a game over the four postseason games. I agree that he wasn't as sharp as he was before the LSU injury ... in a real sense, the story of UNC's 1984 season was a lot like Duke's 2011 year -- the star freshman point guard returned for the NCAA Tournament, but it was too late to recapture the rythm that the team had established before the injury.

    As for UNC's loss to Indiana, the main culprit was Michael Jordan, who had a dismal game -- 13 opoints on six of 14 shooting, one rebound, one assist, four turnovers and five fouls. Dean Smith cometimes gets criticized for sitting Jordan for six minutes in the first half with two fouls, but he played most of the second half and was terrible before fouling out. A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.

  17. #57
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    As for UNC's loss to Indiana, the main culprit was Michael Jordan, who had a dismal game -- 13 opoints on six of 14 shooting, one rebound, one assist, four turnovers and five fouls. Dean Smith cometimes gets criticized for sitting Jordan for six minutes in the first half with two fouls, but he played most of the second half and was terrible before fouling out. A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.
    I'm sorry, but you must be wrong. Don't you know that Jordan was the best clutch player of all time? :-)

  18. #58
    Tough call. Dawkins and Amaker or JWill and Duhon. In a pick up game I'd let you chose first and I'd go with the left over pair, it's that close in my mind.

    Phil Ford, wow! Talk about bad memories. As a kid I couldn't stand him, mostly because he beat my team so often and was so darn good. As an adult, I totally respect his talent and have no ill feelings whatsoever.

    Bob Verga... I do not really remember him, but I do remember my father speaking about him as one of the best he had seen and he had seen them all upto that point so I will defer to those who actually watched him play. He no doubt was one of the best.

    To me, personally, and I have had this argument many, many times with folks. Bobby Hurley was the best point guard to play in the ACC and maybe even the NCAA. I base that on two things, his assist record and TWO national championships. He was the quarterback of those teams, and of course he was surrounded by GREAT talent, but he was a killer. Not trying to covert anyone who disagrees because this is just my personal opinion and I very well may be off base, but I'd take Hurley as my PG in any ACC talent pick up game....

    There are more talented PG's.. even at Duke (JWill, Avery?, certainly Irving, Dawkins...) but Hurley has that spot in my heart... may be that shot he hit against UNLV in 91'...

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    There are more talented PG's.. even at Duke (JWill, Avery?, certainly Irving, Dawkins...) but Hurley has that spot in my heart... may be that shot he hit against UNLV in 91'...
    Hurley wasn't just great because of his fire and the talent around him. He was great.

    Amazing defender, brilliant and accurate passer, and could penetrate with the best. There is no way Avery should be on a list of "more talented PG's". And that's not meant to disrespect Avery. But Hurley was amazing.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

    A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

    But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.

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