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  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    It would not surprise me to see Mason stay and become an offensive scoring force in the post next season when coach K changes the offensive focus and puts more emphasis on entry passes to him. He has the strength/talent and he can be a beast inside, but the offense has to play through him deeper in the paint. Coach K can adjust and often does... Hey, if I can see it, he surely can

    Mason could be an All-American, really improve his draft stock, and with Duke's returning roster and recruits, next year will be a good time to get back to the inside game.
    Agreed on all of that. And, as Cook develops, it wouldn't surprise me to see Mason getting a lot more looks inside. Not necessarily because K is changing the focus of the offense, but because we will have a PG who can make the entry pass, or penetrate and dish to Mase. This year, with Curry and Thornton dominating time at the point, we really didn't have a guy who could reliably get the ball to the low post even if they were looking to do it. But, K being good at adapting to the pieces he has in place, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Cook really looking to get the ball into Mase as a major part of the offense. Especially if Mase can continue to improve on his free throws. Bigs become so much more effective when they're a threat to give you 2 points whether it's from the shot or the line (Hansbrough set a scoring record at the charity stripe).

  2. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    It would not surprise me to see Mason stay and become an offensive scoring force in the post next season when coach K changes the offensive focus and puts more emphasis on entry passes to him. He has the strength/talent and he can be a beast inside, but the offense has to play through him deeper in the paint. Coach K can adjust and often does... Hey, if I can see it, he surely can

    Mason could be an All-American, really improve his draft stock, and with Duke's returning roster and recruits, next year will be a good time to get back to the inside game.
    Agree that Mason could be huge next year. But I think you again are mistaking the system last year if you don't think Coach K stressed feeding the post. He made that a goal last year. He said it numerous times in the preseason. The team even made a concerted effort early on to get him the ball.

    The problems last year were two fold. First, Rivers and Curry were score-first guards who had a bit of tunnel vision once they got the ball. And that little bit of tunnel vision is the difference between hitting a big in good post position and hitting a big who has been pushed out away from the basket. And second, Mason wasn't the most fluid of players when he had to make moves of more than a couple of feet. So when he started getting the ball 10-15 feet from the basket, he started making mistakes. And the guards bailed on him to some degree after that.

    We're never going to run an offense that is "dump it down low every time down court." Mainly because that's not the personnel we have. An approach like that only works when that's the strength of your team. This year, we had one guy remotely comfortable making post moves, and as I said above even he was still limited in that area. It was a team whose scoring strength lay on the perimeter, so we played that way.

  3. #683
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Agree that Mason could be huge next year. But I think you again are mistaking the system last year if you don't think Coach K stressed feeding the post. He made that a goal last year. He said it numerous times in the preseason. The team even made a concerted effort early on to get him the ball.

    The problems last year were two fold. First, Rivers and Curry were score-first guards who had a bit of tunnel vision once they got the ball. And that little bit of tunnel vision is the difference between hitting a big in good post position and hitting a big who has been pushed out away from the basket. And second, Mason wasn't the most fluid of players when he had to make moves of more than a couple of feet. So when he started getting the ball 10-15 feet from the basket, he started making mistakes. And the guards bailed on him to some degree after that.

    We're never going to run an offense that is "dump it down low every time down court." Mainly because that's not the personnel we have. An approach like that only works when that's the strength of your team. This year, we had one guy remotely comfortable making post moves, and as I said above even he was still limited in that area. It was a team whose scoring strength lay on the perimeter, so we played that way.
    I feel like that tunnel vision got worse as the year wore on. Especially after Rivers cemented himself as the leader after hitting the shot against UNC.

    Before (and including) the UNC win, Mason was getting 7.3 shots per game. After the UNC win, he was getting 6.8 shots per game (and several of these games was with Kelly out). Some of the issues were foul trouble and minutes.

    He was also getting to the FT line less. Before (and including) the UNC win, he averaged 5.3 trips to the line. After the UNC win, he made just 4.8 trips to the line per game. He was getting 9.9 rebounds per game prior to the UNC win. After the win, only 7.4. So some of it was on him, since his shot attempts usually include rebound chances.

    By comparison, Rivers averaged 11.4 shots per game up until the UNC win and 12.9 shots per game after it. He also started taking more 3s... before (and including) the UNC win, he averaged 4 3pt attempts per game (and that's with 10 against UNC). After the UNC game, he shot more 3s... 6 per game. For a guy whose strength is driving to the rim, he settled for a lot more long jump shots.

    I don't think it's coincidence that Mason faded down the stretch after the UNC game...

  4. #684
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    Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Give me a break. Mason Plumlee is an Academic All-American. He and Mike Gbinije were Academic All-ACC. Ryan Kelly was Academic All-ACC in 2011 (as was Kyle Singler, and Mason again).

    What grounds do you have to say that the members of our basketball team are any less "Duke students" than the other 6,000 undergrads on campus? I would be willing to wager a not insignificant sum of money that you have absolutely no idea what our student-athletes are doing on campus outside of the 4+ hours per week you watch them on TV competing in a basketball game. Saying that the members of our team are not "Duke students," and implying that they don't represent our University well, is a statement made with absolutely no foundation, is insulting to the members of our team, and is wrong.
    You are absolutely right that I don't spend much time on Duke campus checking out Duke BB players. You would have added significantly to your retirement plan if such a bet had been made. However, can we agree that AR was indeed a mercenary as even his own dad said he was recruited that he would be a one and done?
    As far as student athletes are concerned they are not all the same. AD's love to point to the women's minor sport and secondly to men's minor sports as what a wonderful program they have. The major revenue sports are another matter. I am sad this is the way it is. I remember that there was a BB player in the early 90's who graduated with a 4.0 in physics (don't remember his name but I applaud him as I remember how physics was). From what I can find out now is that the players are in what I would call not strenuous majors. Now, with early registration that allows them to get preferred courses, preferred professors, and tutors, I would submit that this is not a typical student experience, and that becoming an academic all something is not overly strenuous if it were not for some stupid things like playing a 9PM game at Blacksburg and then having morning class the next day and practice that afternoon. I know of a couple athletes (from another institution) who entered school wanting to go into premed curriculum who were told no - the labs took too much time from practice. As I said this was from 2 non Duke institutions, but I expect with the "arms race" in sports that at least some has leaked into Duke and if it has I am sad. Are you knowledgeable as to whether Duke has ANY science majors on the current bb team?
    Although this thread had evolved into being about AR I will address Ryan. The bios on Mason and Ryan sound as if they have a fine mind. I hope they are getting an opportunity to expand it to the best of their potential as they will never get another chance to do so. Learning the subtleties of the man to man defense is just not what he should be in college for.

  5. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxAMillion View Post
    Why should college basketball players be different than anyone else? People all go to college for the same reasons. They look to better themselves so that they are attractive when the time comes to find a job. It just so happens that athletes in a lot of sports can leave early for a lot of money. Football, Basketball, Baseball, Golf, and Tennis players can all leave school early to turn professional. I don't know why they wouldn't if they have millions waiting on them. A lot of "normal" students would do the same if they faced the same opportunities.

    The people who are really selfish are the fans who want the kids to do what makes them happy rather than follow a player's own interest.
    Max, you are absolutely right. Many would leave college to pursue other interests just as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did. The only difference is that Duke prides itself as an academic institution. It is hard to equate Steve Jobs decision to leave with AR coming to Duke for 1 year to get get bona fides to go to the NBA. As I said in the original post it just makes me sad as I use to attend class with some of the athletes and knew the took chemistry, math, physics and although I didn't go there I would walk with them as they went to the Engineering building.
    Times change. I just hope those that do have a good mind are not getting short changed.
    Lastly, please don't patronize me, by suggesting that I "want the kids to do what makes them happy". I don't want the kids to get short changed on life by a system that wants to use them and not look out for there interests beyond money. Coach K knows basketball. I have no idea if he knows or what he thinks about English literature, Chemistry, Biology etc. He may just see them as an impediment to his team.

  6. #686
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    Washington, D.C.

    Coach K and academics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Coach K knows basketball. I have no idea if he knows or what he thinks about English literature, Chemistry, Biology etc. He may just see them as an impediment to his team.
    I think it's safe to say that if Coach K thought those subjects were an impediment he'd be coaching somewhere else.

  7. #687
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    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I think it's safe to say that if Coach K thought those subjects were an impediment he'd be coaching somewhere else.
    Impediment? Impediment? I have it on good authority that he has a copy of Beowulf on his nightstand. Well, OK, I just made that up. But after more than 30 years at Duke, I would guess that he is more than satisfied with the Duke academic standards and program.

  8. #688
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    Impediment? Impediment? I have it on good authority that he has a copy of Beowulf on his nightstand. Well, OK, I just made that up. But after more than 30 years at Duke, I would guess that he is more than satisfied with the Duke academic standards and program.
    Rumor monger!

  9. #689
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    Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    Impediment? Impediment? I have it on good authority that he has a copy of Beowulf on his nightstand. Well, OK, I just made that up. But after more than 30 years at Duke, I would guess that he is more than satisfied with the Duke academic standards and program.
    I hope so. However, my question was do you know any of our players in recent years that are science majors? Also, do you know who it was who majored in physics and graduated with a 4.0 gpa? I think it was about 1990

  10. #690
    Could it have been George Burgin, the center who rarely left the bench?

  11. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanhew View Post
    Could it have been George Burgin, the center who rarely left the bench?
    He's listed on Wikepedia as a engineer. I saw where Nick Horvath was a physics major (could there have been 2) - but I thought it was earlier.

  12. #692
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    Matt Christensen graduated in 2002 with degrees in Civil Engineering and Economics. Nick Horvath graduated in 2003 with degrees in Physics and English. Taymon Domzalski became a physician.

    All seemed to have found a way to balance Duke basketball with a demanding academic curriculum and all did so much more recently than 1990.

    Miles Plumlee considered engineering but couldn't fit in the labs. He's a Psychology major. Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly are extremely bright and extremely articulate. Seth Curry knows his way around a coherent paragraph.

    I talk to lots of 20-year-old-athletes. The ones who represent Duke are pretty bright, as a general rule, something I cannot say for every school in the neighborhood.

    Would most of them qualify for Duke were they not athletes? Probably not. But that ship sailed long, long ago and applies to Stanford, Northwestern, even the Ivies, who give preferential admissions treatment to athletes. That's the compromise we as a nation made when we decided to link higher-education and spectator-sports-as-entertainment. It's a delicate--perhaps fatally flawed-compromise but one that Duke handles about as well as anyone.

    One-and-dones? Goes to the core question of whether being exposed to a world-class university for one year provides a benefit to a teenager. Duke clearly feels the answer is yes, although some degree of self-serving cannot be ruled out. But that's the world we live in. Did one year at Stanford help John McEnroe or Tiger Woods become better-rounded human beings? Stanford must have thought so.

  13. #693
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Miles Plumlee considered engineering but couldn't fit in the labs.
    Miles is a big guy, but I don't remember the labs being *that* small.

  14. #694
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    Feb 2007
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    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Miles Plumlee considered engineering but couldn't fit in the labs.
    A problem that likely contributes to the lack of athletes majoring in science or engineering. I am now working with an undergraduate who's giving up her sport (club team) in order to have time to work in the lab.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Many would leave college to pursue other interests just as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did.
    Point is well-taken, but incidentally, Jobs didn't leave college to start Apple - he bummed around, went to India, and worked for Atari. He said he dropped out because then he didn't have to go to classes he didn't like.

  15. #695

    The week is almost over...any news from the Mason camp?

    Hi,

    Any news from the Mason camp about his coming or going? I thought this was the week they would make a decision? Then again, if he is staying does the University say anything? It might be that only if a kid declares early that they say anything.

    GO DUKE!

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    He's listed on Wikepedia as a engineer. I saw where Nick Horvath was a physics major (could there have been 2) - but I thought it was earlier.
    You might want to check out an earlier thread on this issue (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...l-Players-Take).

    FWIW, I agree that our system of incorporating pre-professional sports into our academic institutions is problematic (and has been for well over 100 years), and a purist would definitely conclude that anything beyond IM is unnecessary and unwise. However, as David Brooks concluded in a column about a year ago, we allow/support it because we, as fans, like it. I have never seen a better argument than this. I have more reason to follow and root for Duke Basketball than any other athletic team that exists, and the best reason that I have for this is that I have identified myself with the name on the front of the jersey for the past 25 years -- kind of pathetic, but I like it. With that, and the the topic of this thread, in mind, I think Duke fans have an obligation to thank Austin and Mason and every other member of the team for their contributions to the university, no matter how long they choose to stay. To me, concerns about "mercenaries" in our midst is a much, much broader issue that fits in a much broader thread about reforming the tenuous marriage of athletics with the US higher education system (it is nowhere near as simple as counting the number of Physics majors or 4-year graduates on the team in the 50s versus the number in the 00s).

  17. #697
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    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    A Sound Mind in a Big, Really Fast Body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turk View Post
    I beg to differ. I think Supa Dave made the same point upstream, and I beg to differ with him, too. The NBA isn't all that interested in player development. That's why they went to the 19 minimum age rule that established the one-and-done. The NBA would set the league age at 20 and be glad to let the NCAA cash in on (I''m sorry, I meant "developing") their pool of unpaid labor if they could get away with it. The NBA is all about minutes and contracts. If you're not getting minutes, you're not getting better. If you have a contract, you can do what you want until it's time to worry about the next one. Lastly, you can make a nice career in the NBA with one major-plus skill and absolutely nothing else. For example, I'm thinking of Mike Miller (3 pointers), JaVale McGee or Slammin Sammy Dalembert (shotblocking), Reggie Evans (rebounding), and in years past, Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, etc.

    Sure, there might be more practices because the season is longer, but it's such a grind the practices aren't really for instruction. A few NBA teams who do want to develop players (e.g. Dallas, San Antonio) are investing into D-league teams, but they're the exception. It's not unusual for mid or low first round picks to cash their 3 year rookie deal, ride some pine, and then wash out of the league.

    To use your example, Austin's not going to get better working against Rondo, because Rondo's only going at half speed. The real development at the college age is in the weight room - the player growing into his body, getting stronger, and (hopefully) maturing as a person. If Austin doesn't have a left hand now, he's not going to get one over the summer.

    The reason people are so divided about Austin is because his NBA career has such a wide range of possibilities. Sure, he could make a couple all-star teams, or he could have a rank-and-file / journeyman career like JJ, Duhon, or GHenderson. Lot of room in between, too. That's why the right team with the right mix of players is so important. For example, if Austin winds up in Sacramento, he might as well be in Azkaban for all the good it will do his career...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    You might want to check out an earlier thread on this issue (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...l-Players-Take).

    FWIW, I agree that our system of incorporating pre-professional sports into our academic institutions is problematic (and has been for well over 100 years), and a purist would definitely conclude that anything beyond IM is unnecessary and unwise. However, as David Brooks concluded in a column about a year ago, we allow/support it because we, as fans, like it. I have never seen a better argument than this. I have more reason to follow and root for Duke Basketball than any other athletic team that exists, and the best reason that I have for this is that I have identified myself with the name on the front of the jersey for the past 25 years -- kind of pathetic, but I like it. With that, and the the topic of this thread, in mind, I think Duke fans have an obligation to thank Austin and Mason and every other member of the team for their contributions to the university, no matter how long they choose to stay. To me, concerns about "mercenaries" in our midst is a much, much broader issue that fits in a much broader thread about reforming the tenuous marriage of athletics with the US higher education system (it is nowhere near as simple as counting the number of Physics majors or 4-year graduates on the team in the 50s versus the number in the 00s).
    Higher education and athletics -- it's what America demands.

    Leaving aside the Ivies for the moment, the "curb presence" of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Vanderbilt is far higher than their Division III peers, Washington U., U. of Chicago and Emory. I think there is a clear benefit in terms of the recognition of the universities. Also, from people who went to one of those schools as well as Duke, there is much more spirit and activity on campus at Duke.

    I think the Ivies would be better with the Duke and Stanford model than what they currently have, which denies the existence of athletic scholarships, when, in fact, there are hundreds of athletic "admissions" and those not wealthy -- most of them -- qualify for lots of financial aid. Even Division III University of Chicago, which has increased its emphasis on football, fields a team with only recruited players. Walk-ons are not permitted! The coach claims that players meet the same admission standards as other students, but he gets rapid turn-around on the decision process.

    sagegrouse

  18. #698
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    Feb 2007
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    Portland, OR
    Here's some talk about Austin playing for his dad... the headline is a little misleading.

  19. #699
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    Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post

    All seemed to have found a way to balance Duke basketball with a demanding academic curriculum and all did so much more recently than 1990.

    Miles Plumlee considered engineering but couldn't fit in the labs. He's a Psychology major.

    I talk to lots of 20-year-old-athletes. The ones who represent Duke are pretty bright, as a general rule, something I cannot say for every school in the neighborhood.

    Would most of them qualify for Duke were they not athletes? Probably not. But that ship sailed long, long ago and applies to Stanford, Northwestern, even the Ivies, who give preferential admissions treatment to athletes. That's the compromise we as a nation made when we decided to link higher-education and spectator-sports-as-entertainment. It's a delicate--perhaps fatally flawed-compromise but one that Duke handles about as well as anyone.

    One-and-dones? Goes to the core question of whether being exposed to a world-class university for one year provides a benefit to a teenager. Duke clearly feels the answer is yes, although some degree of self-serving cannot be ruled out. But that's the world we live in. Did one year at Stanford help John McEnroe or Tiger Woods become better-rounded human beings? Stanford must have thought so.
    The problem with Miles is one that I have seen over and over again around my home with bright kids. They get told they can't do it because it interferes with practice. Is it a benefit to the kids - for , afterall, that's what the university is suppose to be for.I agree, as far as the team bios tell, some of the kids seem to have good minds.
    As for one and done's. Duke always refers to itself as primarily an acaademic institution and this seems to go against that idea. Now I can understand Elto Brand's situation and I'm sympathetic. AR,however, we just found out, was recruited knowing he was leaving after one year. That's different.
    I more and more like the idea of severing the cord between universities and athletics. I would solve a lot of problems - recruiting, pay for players, endorsements, attending classes etc etc.

  20. #700
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    The problem with Miles is one that I have seen over and over again around my home with bright kids. They get told they can't do it because it interferes with practice. Is it a benefit to the kids - for , afterall, that's what the university is suppose to be for.I agree, as far as the team bios tell, some of the kids seem to have good minds.
    As for one and done's. Duke always refers to itself as primarily an acaademic institution and this seems to go against that idea. Now I can understand Elto Brand's situation and I'm sympathetic. AR,however, we just found out, was recruited knowing he was leaving after one year. That's different.
    I more and more like the idea of severing the cord between universities and athletics. I would solve a lot of problems - recruiting, pay for players, endorsements, attending classes etc etc.
    Severing the cord? I'm reminded of the line about riding on the back of a tiger. You can't stay on and you can't get off.

    No one else does it like this and perhaps the rest of the world has it right. It's an irrational, jury-rigged system that has evolved and devolved in fits and starts since the 1870s. But the investment in big-time college sports is deep and wide and severing it would be a really difficult task.

    And probably beyond the scope of a discussion about Mason Plumlee's NBA prospects.

    P.S. I should have mentioned that Trajan Langdon majored in Math at Duke.

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