MBB: Duke 90, UNC-G 63 Post-Game Thread

[MChambers]

With about ten minutes to go, we had Cook, Dawkins, Gbinije, Hairston, and MP1 on the floor. Not a single starter. And the team looked pretty good. Nice to see. Hairston struggled some, but the rest looked good. Gbinije had some nice plays on both ends. I loved it when he got the defender in the air and took a shot as he got fouled, just to get to the line.

I thought Miles had a great game, even if he didn't score. He was working so hard on defense. He's having a really nice stretch of games here. Maybe this is the moment where's he putting it together.

I agree with those who caution against putting too much weight on Cook's scoring. Almost all of it came when the game was out of hand.

[Saratoga2]

Sure Quinn had a nice game but let's keep in mind he did this vs the 300th rated squad on kenpom and his points came at a time when Duke's surge had already been made. He faced very little defensive pressure on his shots though that side-step
layup was nice.
Mason really took control of this game. Atleast 10 of his boards must have been in traffic.

I think Andre is getting overlooked a bit. He still needs work on the defensive end but on offense he's been great lately. The stroke is going and he's done a great job making the extra pass and looking inside.

That view of Quinn's effort neglects to note the same 300th rated squad had Seth looking bad with turnovers and relatively poor floor leadership while Tyler was just okay. Quinn looked brilliant in the second half. The point of Seth nursing a sprained ankle is probably contributing to the showing, but it is encouraging to see Quinn coming on as a point guard.

[mkline09]

Nice end to the first half and a solid second half appeared to knock off the post-exam rust. Great efforts tonight expecially from Dawkins who really continues to evolve as more than just a spot up shooter. Thought Mason took another step forward showing a dominant streak in the post. Rivers did his usual thing and Quinn Cook played solid. Scoring 14 points in 18 minutes on 6-7 shooting is a big boost to his confidence. Every regular player played double digit minutes which is good, though not necessarily going to be a realistic expectation going forward as the schedule and games get tough.

Overall not a bad performance post exams. Now we all have to wait another 11 days. That is three really long breaks in a month for Duke after a brutal early schedule so I think that should help their legs, maybe not their free throw shooting though.

Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

[wilko]

Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

NOPE!!
Anything that is to the detriment of our rival I am for! Immediately.
Roy is ready to be made into glue....

[Saratoga2]

Quinn is certainly the question. I'm not sure he's the answer yet, though. So far this season, including tonight, what he's shown us is he can score. While that's a bit of a pleasant surprise, we have lots of guys who can score. If he's trying to earn time based on his scoring ability, he'll have to get in line behind Austin, Seth, and Andre. If Quinn wants to start or play big minutes, he'll have to do it with defense, and to a lesser extent by being a classic distributing PG. And so far, we haven't seen either of those things from him.

I agree his handle is smooth, but his assist rate isn't great (4.57 assist per 40 minutes) and his decision making needs some work (2 assists vs. 2 turnovers tonight). And, as many have pointed out, his defense isn't there yet.

Give the guy time. He doesn't really have to be our savior yet.

One of his turnovvers came when he tried to feed our big bench player to give him points at the end of the game. He dribbled the ball around their team and into the baseline area but our big player couldn't handle the pass. Overall, I thought Quinn's ball security was excellent and he sees the floor very well. As you noted he can score as he wasn't challenged much last night on his shot, which was pure. He is playing much better defense but fans treat it as a forgone conclusion his defense is weak based on his early games. I think his game last night was superior to Seth's and we are really talking about whether the point guard is Tyler or Quinn.

[devildeac]

After the first two timeouts (media and Duke called, IIRC), I thought we would be looking for a new head coach, effective immediately. K was as livid as I have ever seen him and as red as El Sid's old sport coats (thanks to CB&B for that one!). Haven't had a chance to read the local reports yet but thankfully, we settled down, but not until the last several minutes of the first half. Thankfully, we get another 11 days off now (rolls eyes briefly) to work on things some more.

[COYS]

I agree with everyone who says we need to temper expectations for Quinn based on this one game. Nevertheless, he played a nearly flawless second half after a shaky cameo in the first half. And while most of his contributions were on the scoring end, he set up a few really nice plays for his teammates, even if some of the shots didn't go down. My favorite occurred right after Andre hit what ended up being his last three. The very next time down the floor, Quinn got the offense set up in a 1-4 baseline set, had Andre run through a double screen, and hit him in the corner with a crisp pass. Unfortunately, Andre couldn't bury the shot, but it showed nice recognition from Quinn that he set that play up quickly and executed it really well. I am a big fan of Seth and Tyler, but sometimes they pound the ball into the hardwoods for too long while setting up the offense. Actually, Quinn is guilty of this a lot, too. But this particular play was nice and Quinn wasted absolutely no time setting it up.

I also liked a pick n' pop play that Austin and Ryan ran but flubbed at one point in the first half. Kelly screened Austin's man and Austin began driving to the hoop. Ryan's man stepped in and did a good job cutting off Austin's driving lane so Austin threw a bounce pass to Ryan who had shuffled a bit to his left to get open. Unfortunately, Ryan couldn't handle the pass. If he could have handled it, he would have had an open 12-15 foot jump shot, which is right in his wheelhouse. I like this play, too, because it gets Ryan more shots. I feel like both Ryan and Seth, two of the mainstays of our offense in the big wins in Maui and two of our highest rated offensive players, have been a little neglected since the team has returned to the Continental USA (although Ryan had a lot of looks against Washington). A two man pick n' pop game with Austin and Ryan is something I wouldn't mind seeing more of. Plus, if Ryan knocks down a few, the helping big will have to stay at home on Ryan which will give Austin an easier path into the lane, where he is deadly.

[Newton_14]

I agree with everyone who says we need to temper expectations for Quinn based on this one game. Nevertheless, he played a nearly flawless second half after a shaky cameo in the first half. And while most of his contributions were on the scoring end, he set up a few really nice plays for his teammates, even if some of the shots didn't go down. My favorite occurred right after Andre hit what ended up being his last three. The very next time down the floor, Quinn got the offense set up in a 1-4 baseline set, had Andre run through a double screen, and hit him in the corner with a crisp pass. Unfortunately, Andre couldn't bury the shot, but it showed nice recognition from Quinn that he set that play up quickly and executed it really well. I am a big fan of Seth and Tyler, but sometimes they pound the ball into the hardwoods for too long while setting up the offense. Actually, Quinn is guilty of this a lot, too. But this particular play was nice and Quinn wasted absolutely no time setting it up.

I also liked a pick n' pop play that Austin and Ryan ran but flubbed at one point in the first half. Kelly screened Austin's man and Austin began driving to the hoop. Ryan's man stepped in and did a good job cutting off Austin's driving lane so Austin threw a bounce pass to Ryan who had shuffled a bit to his left to get open. Unfortunately, Ryan couldn't handle the pass. If he could have handled it, he would have had an open 12-15 foot jump shot, which is right in his wheelhouse. I like this play, too, because it gets Ryan more shots. I feel like both Ryan and Seth, two of the mainstays of our offense in the big wins in Maui and two of our highest rated offensive players, have been a little neglected since the team has returned to the Continental USA (although Ryan had a lot of looks against Washington). A two man pick n' pop game with Austin and Ryan is something I wouldn't mind seeing more of. Plus, if Ryan knocks down a few, the helping big will have to stay at home on Ryan which will give Austin an easier path into the lane, where he is deadly.

Actually on the Austin/Ryan play, the staff went nuts and yanked Ryan. The problem was, Ryan was supposed to roll to the basket on the play and instead set up for the pick and pop as you noted. Austin led him with a bounce pass expecting Ryan to roll to the basket where he had a clear path. The pass was actually perfect but Ryan had to chase it down due to not rolling, and it allowed the defense to recover. When Ryan got back to the bench, Collins got on him pretty hard, demonstratively telling him to roll to the basket there.

[Kedsy]

You've got solid offense - a creator at point, an experienced shooter at SG, two experienced post scorers, and an athletic SF who just needs to not be a liability.

I'm not yet convinced Michael wouldn't be an offensive liability. He played reasonably well last night, but I still feel he needs a fair amount of work before he even rises to Lance Thomas offensive levels (and I don't mean senior Lance, either). He's getting there, but I'm not sure I'd want him in the starting lineup yet.

Then you've got offensive and defensive sparkplugs off the bench in Dawkins, Cook and Thornton, along with Miles and Josh for muscle in the post. What's not to love?

I might agree with you if there was any chance of Coach K giving decent minutes to 10 guys once the ACC season rolls around. But there isn't. He'll go with 7 or at most 8. Five of those will be Seth, Austin, Mason, Ryan, and Miles. So if Michael gets starter's minutes (or even major rotation minutes), then at least one and quite possibly two of Andre, Quinn, and Tyler will not be seeing the court very much. That's what not to love.

One of his turnovvers came when he tried to feed our big bench player to give him points at the end of the game.

This is not true. According to the official box score, both of Quinn's turnovers happened just after the 16 minute timeout of the 2nd half (less than 5 minutes into the 2nd half). The last turnover we had in the game was at the 3:44 mark of the 2nd half and was by Austin. So, assuming "end of the game" means within the last 3:43, the play you describe did not end up with us being credited with a turnover.

He is playing much better defense but fans treat it as a forgone conclusion his defense is weak based on his early games.

Well, I was not super-impressed with his defense last night. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't so good, either. But whether you agree with that assessment or not, we need to play excellent defense on the opposing PG. Quinn has to be a lot better than "not weak" for his defense to be good enough. Now, has Seth's defense or Tyler's defense been good enough at the point? I'm not sure that they have. But for Quinn to be our primary PG, he has to be a better defender than both Seth and Tyler, and it doesn't have anything to do with his early games but I just don't think Quinn's there yet.

[Kedsy]

But for Quinn to be our primary PG, he has to be a better defender than both Seth and Tyler, and it doesn't have anything to do with his early games but I just don't think Quinn's there yet.

Put another way, Tyler is out there because of his defense and his floor leadership/intangibles. Quinn is clearly a better offensive player than Tyler. If Quinn's defense and floor leadership/intangibles were anywhere close to Tyler's, then Quinn would already be starting. He might get there later in the season, but obviously he's not there yet.

[superdave]

Put another way, Tyler is out there because of his defense and his floor leadership/intangibles. Quinn is clearly a better offensive player than Tyler. If Quinn's defense and floor leadership/intangibles were anywhere close to Tyler's, then Quinn would already be starting. He might get there later in the season, but obviously he's not there yet.

Kedsy - do you just cut an paste all playing time argument rebuttals from previous threads? I hope you do to save time.

Question that's more likely and interesting - Do we experiment with Austin Rivers at the point so we can play our best guys the most minutes in the biggest games?

I think we move in that direction. Austin is a little better ball handler than Seth, and Seth is a better scorer off the ball. If Austin can initiate things on offense then I think we can jump a level as a team. That may be asking a lot of a kid who is a natural scorer and a freshman, but he's got a great attitude, is capable and he could prove his PG skills.

[brumby041]

I expected rust, but this was malaise. Getting outhustled, big guys bringing the ball down and getting stripped, poor passing and a lot of turnovers. After exams, they are likely to come out slow, but this was worse than I expected. It took a great deal of the first half to get going, with the defense really leading the way by slowing them down and then we hit a few threes and were off to the races.

I'm with K on this one...why do we use exams as an excuse?

Everyone understands that the UNCG guys had exams as well, right?

(Not to pick on Saratoga...this excuse is put forth every year...)

-brumby

[roywhite]

Coach K on Quinn and Silent G:

Post game quotes

Our two young kids, Quinn [Cook] and Mike [Gbinije], really had their best minutes. That was so good going into the break.

He also talked about adjustments in the defense which worked well in the second half.
From watching Cook play so well in the second half, including on defense, I'd say he took a step ahead and is earning more minutes.

[jv001]

At this point in the season, there is very little difference in the "on the ball defense" of our perimeter guys. That's Tyler, Seth, Austin, and Quinn. However there are differences in the off the ball defense of these same players. Tyler and Seth are great at disrupting the offense of our opponents. Both come up with steals and get their hands on a lot of passes. From what I see of Quinn, he has the foot speed and lateral quickness to become a good on the ball defender. I like the way Coach K is bringing him along and it looks like he's improving in many areas. Last night after a rather slow first half, he got into the flow and played well offensively and defensively. To me it's apparent he has more natural talent than Tyler, but at this point in time, he doesn't have Tyler's experience and toughness. But I believe it will come. I have confidence in Coach K and the rest of the staff to continue bringing Quinn along. GoDuke!

[BD80]

... Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

I wonder how ol' roy would answer that question?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

"You touch my stuff, and I'll kill you"

[Kedsy]

Kedsy - do you just cut an paste all playing time argument rebuttals from previous threads? I hope you do to save time.

I'm sorry if I sound repetitive. For some reason I can't stop myself.

Question that's more likely and interesting - Do we experiment with Austin Rivers at the point so we can play our best guys the most minutes in the biggest games?

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

[jv001]

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

Count me in on this as well ^. And your two reasons sound convincing to me. I really believe this would take pressure off Seth and allow him to play his natural position. We would then have Quinn and Tyler to spell Austin. Austin and Michael G. could spell Andre. But what do I know? GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

i know this has been brought up before, but Seth had another sub-par game starting alongside Tyler, and TT's stats weren't impressive at all. I know leadership can't be quantified, but being down 24-21 well into the game is quantitative, and indicative of leadership (or lack of).
It seems odd that K accredits better team play with TT at the point, yet nobody seems to play better individually.

[Kedsy]

It seems odd that K accredits better team play with TT at the point, yet nobody seems to play better individually.

I agree that Tyler does not seem to make our offense better, quite the contrary, as we've been discussing in the other thread. So I assume K is talking about better defense and better communication when Tyler is on the floor. Perhaps better toughness. These are all valuable attributes, and once Quinn's defense is up to snuff, I think the ongoing question will be whether Tyler needs to be starting to bring those intangibles or whether he can provide the same benefit in short bursts off the bench.

[jipops]

That view of Quinn's effort neglects to note the same 300th rated squad had Seth looking bad with turnovers and relatively poor floor leadership while Tyler was just okay. Quinn looked brilliant in the second half. The point of Seth nursing a sprained ankle is probably contributing to the showing, but it is encouraging to see Quinn coming on as a point guard.

My point is we might want to temper our excitement about Quinn. I'm not sure what the comfort level is going to be just throwing them out there in an ACC game with a 5 point margin with 12 minutes left. As already noted by Kedsy (I think), if we want to be able to rely on Quinn being a regular contributor this season he is going to have to do more than score, we already have perimeter scorers.

I was honestly equally encouraged by Gbinige's performance who isn't getting as much pub in this thread. He was an excellent matchup in this game because he was equally quick but with far more length than Gboro's perimeter guys - and Gboro's players were very quick. He had a really nice drive to the baseline and defensively he shows a lot of potential. I still have some doubts that will translate to reliable contributions in the ACC season but there is a lot of promise for the future.

Seth hasn't had great scoring output lately but I'm really not worried about it at all. He has already shown to be a very mature player. I would honestly like to see him more vocal more than anything. His slide in scoring may very well have something to do with switching from primary point to off-guard then back again over the course of these early games. Nobody has had more roles to fill than Seth so far and he has probably been the guy best suited to deal with that. Everyone else has pretty much had their role set for them.