Page 32 of 64 FirstFirst ... 22303132333442 ... LastLast
Results 621 to 640 of 1266
  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Faison1 View Post
    Ours will be, and always tends to be, a guard. At least in the last 10 years.
    Well, it may have seemed like 10 years, but it was really only 5. In 2007, our best player was our center (McRoberts). From 2003-2006, Shelden Williams manned the post. From 2000-2002 we had Carlos Boozer.

  2. #622
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, it may have seemed like 10 years, but it was really only 5. In 2007, our best player was our center (McRoberts). From 2003-2006, Shelden Williams manned the post. From 2000-2002 we had Carlos Boozer.
    Kedsy, it's also important to realize that - assuming Tony Parker is 18 - he was 13 when Duke had McBob, 12 when they had Shelden, and 8 when they had Boozer. For a high schooler, a lot happens between the ages of 13-18, especially when it comes to creating your own perceptions. McBob, Shelden, and Boozer may be fresh in our minds, but to a high schooler, they are ancient news.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  3. #623

    I watched him play on 2 TV Games

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    He's probably the closest in terms of playing style, but Brand was rated much higher and was an immediate impact guy. From what I've read, most people expect that TP would fill a role that we definitely have a need for (low-post banger) but probably not be a starter his first year.

    Wow, I'm just now realizing that SuperDave and SupaDave are two different people. Sorry guys!
    There has been a lot of talk about Tony, but many talking are doing it based on hearsay. Tony is a load and perhaps would wind up slimming a little when playing in college. He has excellent abilities around the rim and rebounds well and passes well to start the break. Kind of the unstoppable force in high school. He seems to have the touch and poise around the basket that the Plumlees lack. Much better footwork, even as a highschool player. Brandt is the best comparison when looking at a former Duke player. I really hope that this kid comes to Duke and don't agree that he would only be a role player in year one. With Marshall, Ryan and even Mason available, Tony would provide a different and much needed presence inside.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Oh come on now. Your sarcasm is SO unwarranted.

    Darrell Arthur has averaged 7 points per game in his two years in the league, prior to missing this whole season with an injury. That stat alone shows you what an awesome job KU does in developing its bigs. But then what about:

    Darnell Jackson: he averaged 3 points in 138 games over 3 years before heading for the Ukraine, where he's playing now. Who wouldn't want to be developed to have the same type of pro success as Darnell?

    Sasha Kaun: he wisely spurned Duke in order to enroll at KU, which has resulted not in an NBA career, but one in Russia.

    Cole Aldrich: 31 games over 2 years as a sub for Oklahoma City, playing mainly when other guys get hurt. Career average of 2.5 ppg. Now that's an impact player.

    Markieff Morris is averaging 20 minutes a night off of Phoenix's bench. Nice rookie year so far.

    Marcus Morris: he's back from the D-league, and riding serious pine for Houston.

    Seriously, this is the kind of big man development that Kansas is selling? There's one guy having any impact at all. This record is what would persuade a high school big man that Kansas is the place for him? Considering he also has to convince them to move to Lawrence, Kansas, that Bill Self must be some salesman.
    Is this a joke? Please come and visit. I realize Kansas does not have a great reputation nationally, but Lawrence is one of the more beautiful campuses/towns anywhere. It's Austin-like... A lush, scenic oasis in the middle of a bass-ackwards state. Throw in AFH, it's not hard to understand why it's a popular destination for players. There is a reason kids have flocked there from places like LA and NYC, long before Bill Self arrived. The current starting 5 consists of players from Jersey, Vegas, DC, KC, and San Diego. Roy's best teams in the 90s had players like Vaughn-Pierce-Gooden (California).

    Back to the rest of this post: Gauging NBA success is very much a Tarheel thing to do, isn't it? I would rather take a look at the Morris bros and Darnell Jackson, who were rail-thin as freshman, and couldn't dunk without a running start (seriously). They left as physical specimen, the Morris bros were both drafted in the lottery. Jackson never dreamed of seeing time on an NBA court when he arrived in Lawrence.

  5. #625
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    Is this a joke? Please come and visit. I realize Kansas does not have a great reputation nationally, but Lawrence is one of the more beautiful campuses/towns anywhere. It's Austin-like... A lush, scenic oasis in the middle of a bass-ackwards state. Throw in AFH, it's not hard to understand why it's a popular destination for players. There is a reason kids have flocked there from places like LA and NYC, long before Bill Self arrived. The current starting 5 consists of players from Jersey, Vegas, DC, KC, and San Diego. Roy's best teams in the 90s had players like Vaughn-Pierce-Gooden (California).

    Back to the rest of this post: Gauging NBA success is very much a Tarheel thing to do, isn't it? I would rather take a look at the Morris bros and Darnell Jackson, who were rail-thin as freshman, and couldn't dunk without a running start (seriously). They left as physical specimen, the Morris bros were both drafted in the lottery. Jackson never dreamed of seeing time on an NBA court when he arrived in Lawrence.
    The dude is right. Lawrence is a great place. Austin might be overstating it, since Lawrence has less than 100,000 people and Austin has over a million, but you're still talking about one of the gold standard college towns.

    And I also feel it's ungenerous to nitpick KU's talent development. They have put a number of guys in the league lately, and an absence of superstars doesn't say much to me. In fact, you could make the argument that the number of "decent" NBA careers a school produces is a better metric of development than the number of superstars generated. It's one thing to avoid tripping an alpha talent on his way to the top; it's a more impressive thing (I would say) to teach a smattering of weaker swimmers enough that they can keep their heads above water in the most competitive sports league on the planet, something at which both Duke and KU have excelled. I'm not saying Self "made" any of those guys--but neither has K made any of ours.

    We're incredibly proud of Lance for clawing his way to an NBA contract this season. Darnell Jackson is the same deal for Kansas.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Kedsy, it's also important to realize that - assuming Tony Parker is 18 - he was 13 when Duke had McBob, 12 when they had Shelden, and 8 when they had Boozer. For a high schooler, a lot happens between the ages of 13-18, especially when it comes to creating your own perceptions. McBob, Shelden, and Boozer may be fresh in our minds, but to a high schooler, they are ancient news.
    I get all that. I was just responding to someone saying our best players have been guards for the past 10 years, and pointing out that it has only been 5 years, not 10.

  7. #627
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I get all that. I was just responding to someone saying our best players have been guards for the past 10 years, and pointing out that it has only been 5 years, not 10.
    Well, one could quibble with you there, too. Our best offensive player has been a perimeter-oriented offensive player for 12 of the past 13 years (McRoberts in 2007 being the exception):

    2000: Battier and Carrawell were both wings
    2001: Battier and Williams (Boozer third)
    2002: Williams (Boozer was second)
    2003: Redick and Jones
    2004: Redick and Deng (Williams third)
    2005: Redick (Williams second, Ewing third)
    2006: Redick (Williams second)
    2007: McRoberts (Nelson second)
    2008: Nelson and Singler
    2009: Henderson and Singler
    2010: Singler, Scheyer, Smith
    2011: Smith, Singler, Irving

    There have been a couple of prominent post scorers for us in the past 10 years, but the offense has been very predominantly perimeter-oriented over that stretch.

  8. #628
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Roxboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Well, one could quibble with you there, too. Our best offensive player has been a perimeter-oriented offensive player for 12 of the past 13 years (McRoberts in 2007 being the exception):

    2000: Battier and Carrawell were both wings
    2001: Battier and Williams (Boozer third)
    2002: Williams (Boozer was second)
    2003: Redick and Jones
    2004: Redick and Deng (Williams third)
    2005: Redick (Williams second, Ewing third)
    2006: Redick (Williams second)
    2007: McRoberts (Nelson second)
    2008: Nelson and Singler
    2009: Henderson and Singler
    2010: Singler, Scheyer, Smith
    2011: Smith, Singler, Irving

    There have been a couple of prominent post scorers for us in the past 10 years, but the offense has been very predominantly perimeter-oriented over that stretch.
    Just curious, but how many teams have a true post player as their leading scorer? Sullinger at OSU is one.

  9. #629
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by nocilla View Post
    Just curious, but how many teams have a true post player as their leading scorer? Sullinger at OSU is one.
    Off the top of my head, for this year: Kansas, Baylor, OSU, Indiana, and Kentucky. That's a lot of really good teams with leading offensive big men.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  10. #630
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by nocilla View Post
    Just curious, but how many teams have a true post player as their leading scorer? Sullinger at OSU is one.
    I'm sure that varies from year to year. This year? Kentucky, Kansas, MSU, Baylor, and OSU are AP Top-10 teams that have post players as their leading scorers. UNC has their 2nd and 3rd leading scorers as post players. Baylor has bigs for its #3 and #4 scorer. So half of the top-10 have bigs as their leading scorers, and another has two post scorers as very prominent scorers in their offense.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Well, one could quibble with you there, too. Our best offensive player has been a perimeter-oriented offensive player for 12 of the past 13 years (McRoberts in 2007 being the exception):

    2000: Battier and Carrawell were both wings
    2001: Battier and Williams (Boozer third)
    2002: Williams (Boozer was second)
    2003: Redick and Jones
    2004: Redick and Deng (Williams third)
    2005: Redick (Williams second, Ewing third)
    2006: Redick (Williams second)
    2007: McRoberts (Nelson second)
    2008: Nelson and Singler
    2009: Henderson and Singler
    2010: Singler, Scheyer, Smith
    2011: Smith, Singler, Irving

    There have been a couple of prominent post scorers for us in the past 10 years, but the offense has been very predominantly perimeter-oriented over that stretch.
    Well, you are literally correct. But that could be said for Kansas too (except I guess for this year). And for most teams. If we'd had a big man as our second best offensive player over the past five years, nobody would be talking about us not being a good destination for big men. The perception arose because from 2008 to 2011, our best four offensive players were perimeter oriented.

    It's a sad testament to society that four years leads to a perceived universal truth, but that's really all it's been.

    And one final quibble with your chart -- Deng played power forward for the 2004 team. And I know he shot a fair number of threes, but I wouldn't necessarily label him a "perimeter-oriented" player.

  12. #632
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Guys, Duke is a guard-oriented team. That's just a fact. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise needs to have their head examined. The question is not whether Duke runs their offense through their guards, the question is whether a talented big man who comes to Duke would be featured enough in the offense. And in Parker's case, he needs to know if a player with his particular skill set will be featured, or whether he'll be expected to defer to the guards. Unfortunately we don't have a whole lot of examples of this, especially in recent years.

  13. #633
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    The perception arose because from 2008 to 2011, our best four offensive players were perimeter oriented. It's a sad testament to society that four years leads to a perceived universal truth, but that's really all it's been.
    But in the eyes of recruits, the last 5-6 years are all that matters. Anything earlier than that occurred well before they really started paying attention to how teams utilize particular types of players. That short window is the reality that most kids live in.

    Also, Kansas has had at least one prominent scoring big man in each of the last 4 years, and a ~15ppg scoring post man in 3 of those 4 years (17+ the past two years). And in the past 10 years, their leading scorer has been a big man in half of those years (each topping 17ppg).

    Given the short window of history for these recruits, they're worlds apart from us in terms of producing post scorers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    And one final quibble with your chart -- Deng played power forward for the 2004 team. And I know he shot a fair number of threes, but I wouldn't necessarily label him a "perimeter-oriented" player.
    I'd say he was more perimeter-oriented than a post player offensively. Duke played the "4-out 1-in" strategy, and Deng wasn't the "1-in" (that was Williams, Randolph, and occasionally Horvath). Deng is simply not a relevant example for a post player to consider.
    Last edited by CDu; 02-28-2012 at 01:28 PM.

  14. #634
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Kedsy, it's also important to realize that - assuming Tony Parker is 18 - he was 13 when Duke had McBob, 12 when they had Shelden, and 8 when they had Boozer. For a high schooler, a lot happens between the ages of 13-18, especially when it comes to creating your own perceptions. McBob, Shelden, and Boozer may be fresh in our minds, but to a high schooler, they are ancient news.
    The notion that these players are "ancient news" doesn't agree with me. When I was in 2nd grade, I used to dream of being a professional basketball player (I'm now 25, an accountant, and 5'6" ... close, but no cigar). I collected basketball cards of people named Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Moses Malone, to name a few. They were not "ancient history" in my book. I was very familiar with them, fascinated by them even.

    My point is, I have to imagine these kids eat, sleep, and breath basketball to be this good and this demanded by top-tier programs. I don't think they are nearly as blind to the histories of these storied programs as posters here insinuate. I could, of course, be wrong, but I would be shocked. Elton Brand is playing in the NBA finishing a long and successful (and lucrative) career. I doubt that a high school basketball player of Tony Parker's caliber doesn't know Elton Brand, doesn't know he went to Duke, and hasn't been thoroughly steeped in the link between the two [Coach K].

    This goes for any former college star, be it 10 years out, 15 years out, 20+ years out of college. If you said Dick Groat, Alaa Abdelnaby, or even Danny Ferry then I'd agree to some extent. But I'd be absolutely shocked if these kids are unfamiliar (or can't draw comparisons) with someone like Elton Brand, Josh McRoberts, Shelden Williams, or Carlos Boozer.

    A few youtube searches and they are thoroughly familiar with these and almost any other player. It's not that hard. And I'd be amazed if it's uncommon. If TP, for example, is taking this long to decide on a school, do you think he's not researching these sorts of things?

    - Chillin

  15. #635
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    I'll have mine examined

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Guys, Duke is a guard-oriented team. That's just a fact. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise needs to have their head examined. The question is not whether Duke runs their offense through their guards, the question is whether a talented big man who comes to Duke would be featured enough in the offense. And in Parker's case, he needs to know if a player with his particular skill set will be featured, or whether he'll be expected to defer to the guards. Unfortunately we don't have a whole lot of examples of this, especially in recent years.
    I recognize that Duke hasn't had a featured low post player in a while, but to me that is clearly a function of the personnel over the last decade. I don't have any doubt that a talented big man with a low post game would be featured in the offense.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, you are literally correct. But that could be said for Kansas too (except I guess for this year). And for most teams. If we'd had a big man as our second best offensive player over the past five years, nobody would be talking about us not being a good destination for big men. The perception arose because from 2008 to 2011, our best four offensive players were perimeter oriented.

    It's a sad testament to society that four years leads to a perceived universal truth, but that's really all it's been.

    And one final quibble with your chart -- Deng played power forward for the 2004 team. And I know he shot a fair number of threes, but I wouldn't necessarily label him a "perimeter-oriented" player.
    Last year KU's top two scorers were the Morris twins. The year before KU had Sherron Collins and Xavier Henry lead them in scoring, but also had two post players (Marcus Morris and Cole Aldrich) scoring in double figures. KU is just more inside-oriented. Maybe that's personnel driven, but it seems system-driven to me. Some guys will like it, some won't. It's somewhat less of an open-floor game in the halfcourt than what Duke typically runs. But it also just seems emphasis driven. KU makes concerted efforts to pound the ball into the paint, some through penetration, but a lot through dumping it into post players. Duke gets into the paint more off the bounce either for dump-offs, layups or pitch. Different strokes.

    Parker seems to have a game more consistent with what KU tries to do, versus Duke. But I can see him doing well anywhere on his list.

  17. #637
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I recognize that Duke hasn't had a featured low post player in a while, but to me that is clearly a function of the personnel over the last decade. I don't have any doubt that a talented big man with a low post game would be featured in the offense.
    I completely agree with that. Coach K has always adapted the offense to fit the skills of the players he has. When we've had a go-to post scoring man, we've featured him to varying extents (Brand, Boozer, Williams). It's just been a while since we've had a guy like that. We're hoping that Mason becomes that guy this year or next. But it's been a while. And in terms of current recruits, it's been the entirety of their recruiting history.

    The good news is that it just takes one or two guys to change that. Maybe it'll be Mason and Marshall. Maybe it'll be the next guy we recruit. But for the guys looking right now, history isn't on our side.

  18. #638
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I recognize that Duke hasn't had a featured low post player in a while, but to me that is clearly a function of the personnel over the last decade. I don't have any doubt that a talented big man with a low post game would be featured in the offense.
    Are the Plumlees being currently being featured in our offense? If you were a recruit, would you be happy getting the number of touches that the Plumlees are currently getting?

    When someone with Elton's talent comes in, Duke will incorporate the inside game into its offense. But when someone with less than Elton's talent comes in, I don't see that happening. So I guess a big question for TP is whether he sees himself as being good enough to demand that kind of a role in the offense. Or maybe he'd rather go to a system that starts on the inside, like Kansas or UNC, where he'll be given room to develop.

  19. #639
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Another Snorer Post [Sorry]

    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I recognize that Duke hasn't had a featured low post player in a while, but to me that is clearly a function of the personnel over the last decade. I don't have any doubt that a talented big man with a low post game would be featured in the offense.
    Here is a list of all the players under K referred to as Centers and making All-ACC (teams 1st through 3rd):

    Code:
    Danny	Ferry	(2nd)	1987
    Danny	Ferry	(1st)	1988
    Danny	Ferry	(1st)	1989
    Chr.	Laettner	(2nd)	1990
    Alaa	Abdeln.	(3rd)	1990
    Chr.      Laettner	(1st)	1991
    Chr.	Laettner	(1st)	1992
    Cherok.	Parks	(2nd)	1994
    Cherok.	Parks	(2nd)	1995
    Elton	Brand	(1st)	1999
    Carlos	Boozer	(1st)	2002
    Shel.	Williams	(2nd)	2004
    Shel.	Williams	(1st)	2005
    Shel.	Williams	(1st)	2006
    Josh	McRob.	(2nd)	2007
    Interesting, but in 14 of K's 31 years, someone listed as a Center has been All-ACC. That comprises eight players, all of whom played in the NBA. And I expect Mason to be 3rd team All-ACC this year (and play in the NBA, maybe with his brothers).

    sagegrouse
    'I took editorial license in making NPOY Brand a center because he was basically unguardable in the middle'

  20. #640
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Are the Plumlees being currently being featured in our offense? If you were a recruit, would you be happy getting the number of touches that the Plumlees are currently getting?

    When someone with Elton's talent comes in, Duke will incorporate the inside game into its offense. But when someone with less than Elton's talent comes in, I don't see that happening. So I guess a big question for TP is whether he sees himself as being good enough to demand that kind of a role in the offense. Or maybe he'd rather go to a system that starts on the inside, like Kansas or UNC, where he'll be given room to develop.
    I think this is a key point. And even in the cases of Brand and Boozer, I'd argue that we could/should have used them even more than we did. Of course, in Boozer's case, we had two other lottery picks demanding touches, so it's somewhat understandable. But we've generally played outside in except in extreme cases in which we had a clearly elite interior presence. Kansas and UNC have tended to look more inside than we do. That's not to say their approach is better or worse - just that I can understand why a big guy might prefer them over us.

    Again, it only takes one or two recruits to change that perception. Hopefully over the next couple of years that works out for us.

Similar Threads

  1. Shabazz Muhammad or Tony Parker
    By Duke31122 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-08-2012, 11:17 PM
  2. Tony Parker & Alex Murphy
    By Aycock95 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-19-2011, 01:48 PM
  3. Watch Tony Parker Live Tonight
    By airowe in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-10-2011, 10:34 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •