Dan Patrick this morning

[tommy]

I'm bouncing around between stations on the way into work and stop on Dan Patrick. He's interviewing Steph Curry, he asks about some time when Steph got caught on a switch and Kobe had him pinned down in the post. Steph said basically that all he could do was flop. That caused Patrick to ask a follow up about flopping generally, which Curry answered.

So the issue of flopping is now on the table and the next words out of Patrick's mouth are "I blame Duke."

Steph tried to defend Duke a little, the way we play defense, take charges, etc., but then Patrick followed up with (maybe not an exact quote, but close) "Your brother plays for Duke. Do they have a special room, or a film room, where they specifically teach them how to flop?"

This was tongue in cheek, I get it, but the "I blame Duke" wasn't.

What a douche.

[theAlaskanBear]

Did anyone catch the David Stern comments during Heat-Indiana game?

The question was about Vogel calling the Heat the floppingest team in the NBA and was like, "we will see how it gets called" in advance of series. Stern was very frank and said, "He was trying to manipulate the refereeing of the series, and if I was in charge of the fine amount it would have been more than 15k."

But he acknowledged that flopping is an issue the league will try to address eventually because its not a basketball play and is meant to manipulate the refs, who have a hard enough job as it is.

(more OT: he also had some great comments about injuries and reporting -- I will post in the NBA playoff thread)

[sagegrouse]

Did anyone catch the David Stern comments during Heat-Indiana game?

The question was about Vogel calling the Heat the floppingest team in the NBA and was like, "we will see how it gets called" in advance of series. Stern was very frank and said, "He was trying to manipulate the refereeing of the series, and if I was in charge of the fine amount it would have been more than 15k."

But he acknowledged that flopping is an issue the league will try to address eventually because its not a basketball play and is meant to manipulate the refs, who have a hard enough job as it is.

(more OT: he also had some great comments about injuries and reporting -- I will post in the NBA playoff thread)

I don't see why "flopping" isn't controllable at the pro and college level. Game tapes are already monitored by the league or conference. Give the floppers suspensions and repeat offenders even longer suspensions. I believe soccer does something like this.

One can also handle the problem where a player falls because he truly anticipates a blow or charge and that doesn't happen -- "an accidental flop," if you wish. Nothing prevents the player from telling the ref, "he didn't hit me -- there should be no foul."

sagegrouse

[DeBlueDevil]

I'm bouncing around between stations on the way into work and stop on Dan Patrick. He's interviewing Steph Curry, he asks about some time when Steph got caught on a switch and Kobe had him pinned down in the post. Steph said basically that all he could do was flop. That caused Patrick to ask a follow up about flopping generally, which Curry answered.

So the issue of flopping is now on the table and the next words out of Patrick's mouth are "I blame Duke."

Steph tried to defend Duke a little, the way we play defense, take charges, etc., but then Patrick followed up with (maybe not an exact quote, but close) "Your brother plays for Duke. Do they have a special room, or a film room, where they specifically teach them how to flop?"

This was tongue in cheek, I get it, but the "I blame Duke" wasn't.

What a douche.

This is a prime example of taking something someone says out of context. Not to jump on you about this but I listen to his program and listened to the full program today. Every comment about Duke was sarcastic and tounge in cheek. There was no seriousness behind the comments at all. I think the reason you thought it might have been serious is because as you stated you were "jumping around from station to station" and just so happened to tune in in the middle of the conversation.

Dan made this joke a few times throughout the show and he even stopped to say "because you always have to blame duke for flopping" at one point in the show as to poke fun at the fact that this is one of the many whining and crying points of Duke's opposing fans saying "they get all the calls" or "they flop for offensive fouls" etc. Nothing new to a Duke fan.

Sorry to call you out but you definitely took his words out of context.

[Steven43]

I'm bouncing around between stations on the way into work and stop on Dan Patrick. He's interviewing Steph Curry, he asks about some time when Steph got caught on a switch and Kobe had him pinned down in the post. Steph said basically that all he could do was flop. That caused Patrick to ask a follow up about flopping generally, which Curry answered.

So the issue of flopping is now on the table and the next words out of Patrick's mouth are "I blame Duke."

Steph tried to defend Duke a little, the way we play defense, take charges, etc., but then Patrick followed up with (maybe not an exact quote, but close) "Your brother plays for Duke. Do they have a special room, or a film room, where they specifically teach them how to flop?"

This was tongue in cheek, I get it, but the "I blame Duke" wasn't.

What a douche.

I am just so tired of this stuff. While there clearly seems to be truth to the idea that for the past couple of decades or so Coach K and staff have taught defensive players to draw a charge by anticipating when an opposing offensive player is going to make an aggressive move and either beat them to a spot and wait to be run into or hold their ground and wait to be run into, that is not what I think of as flopping. I understand flopping to be when the defensive player makes it look as if he has been violently run into when he really hasn't. In other words, exaggerating for effect. Duke players don't seem to fake this move very often at all. Certainly not anywhere close to as often as I have seen many others do. And while I personally am not really sold on Coach K's idea of simply allowing oneself to be run into in an attempt to draw a charge, even though it is legal, that is not the same thing as pretending something happened that did not. It's irksome that commentators--like Dan Patrick--don't draw a distinction between the two.

[MarkD83]

1. If the officials start penalizing flopping on block/charge calls they should also consider calling flopping on a shooter who keeps his arm in the air after a shot for a defender to run into. There are many times I have seen a shot go up and a defender run into the extended arm of the shooter AFTER the shot. There is no way the shot was affected by the defender yet that is called a foul every time.

2. It is good that the charge block flop is affiliated with Duke. If it makes a player think twice about driving the lane because Duke might attempt to draw a charge than go ahead and let the media get in other folks heads.

[rthomas]

To give credit (or blame) where credit is due, it was actually Bill Laimbeer who played for Detroit Pistons from 1982-1993 who invented "flopping".

[tommy]

This is a prime example of taking something someone says out of context. Not to jump on you about this but I listen to his program and listened to the full program today. Every comment about Duke was sarcastic and tounge in cheek. There was no seriousness behind the comments at all. I think the reason you thought it might have been serious is because as you stated you were "jumping around from station to station" and just so happened to tune in in the middle of the conversation.

Dan made this joke a few times throughout the show and he even stopped to say "because you always have to blame duke for flopping" at one point in the show as to poke fun at the fact that this is one of the many whining and crying points of Duke's opposing fans saying "they get all the calls" or "they flop for offensive fouls" etc. Nothing new to a Duke fan.

Sorry to call you out but you definitely took his words out of context.

I really don't think I did. While I was bouncing around stations, I stopped and was listening to the Curry interview for a full 3-4 minutes before the flopping thing came up, so I heard the entire context. And I did detect seriousness in the "blame Duke" comment, if not the "Duke has their own film room to teach this specifically" follow-up question by Patrick.

This did not sound to me like Patrick poking fun at the whining of anti-Duke fans on this issue. To the contrary, it sounded to me like he was stoking the anti-Duke fires, which is always good for ratings.

I am just so tired of this stuff. While there clearly seems to be truth to the idea that for the past couple of decades or so Coach K and staff have taught defensive players to draw a charge by anticipating when an opposing offensive player is going to make an aggressive move and either beat them to a spot and wait to be run into or hold their ground and wait to be run into, that is not what I think of as flopping. I understand flopping to be when the defensive player makes it look as if he has been violently run into when he really hasn't. In other words, exaggerating for effect. Duke players don't seem to fake this move very often at all. Certainly not anywhere close to as often as I have seen many others do. And while I personally am not really sold on Coach K's idea of simply allowing oneself to be run into in an attempt to draw a charge, even though it is legal, that is not the same thing as pretending something happened that did not. It's irksome that commentators--like Dan Patrick--don't draw a distinction between the two.

Totally agree with you. It's guys like Patrick being too lazy, or too ignorant, to draw that distinction, so he repeats his uninformed statements every chance he gets, and the result is that other lazy and/or ignorant people adopt these memes and repeat them, and on and on, until it becomes conventional wisdom in the largely brainless media and then parroted by fans everywhere.

[OldPhiKap]

Let the haters hate.

We play a brand of defense that forces the action. (When we are playing it well, that is). The refs call it like they see it. Sometimes it's a charge, sometimes it's a block. But it's contact.

If the fans are so out of whack that they think the refs are all throwing games in our favor, they should start watching world futbol and see what corrupt refs really look like. If they adjust the tin foil on their hats, they can probably get good reception without waking up in a roadside ditch too.



Edit to add: Not aimed at Dan Patrick, who was probably going for laughs and filling time than anything else. But did not see/hear it so I'm passing on the OP.

[moonpie23]

they would have to start with some OBVIOUS flops, (bynum acting like steve nash posted him up enough to knock him down) kind of thing, but, regardless, it's not going to be easy to separate the real ones from the flop...

[Jarhead]

Now just what is a defender supposed to do? Bow and welcome the shooter to the lane.? Maybe even clear a lane for him? What are we watching? The Harlem Globe Trotters? What is wrong with a defender standing his ground? t is not against the rules. It is well nigh impossible for a person standing in place to not react to the collision by falling away, flopping, if you will. It is up to the ref to determine if fake flopping is taking place. Let's leave it that way, and leave the rules as they are.

[luvdahops]

To give credit (or blame) where credit is due, it was actually Bill Laimbeer who played for Detroit Pistons from 1982-1993 who invented "flopping".

I'd put Jeff Lebo, who played for Carolina 1986-1989 and was the son of a HS coach, right up there. He would regularly try to draw charges on players trying to pass out of a trap at midcourt. To this day, that remains one of the most ridiculous plays I have ever seen. And I watch a lot of basketball.

Separately, Lebron pulled a super lame flop in Game 1 of the Knicks-Heat Series. He was legitimately fouled by Tyson Chandler on a blind pick, but a good five seconds passed between contact and LBJ flopping and then writhing on the floor. He later claimed to have hurt his neck on the play. Sure.

[OldPhiKap]

Bill Laimbeer and Jeff Lebo in one thread. Must be Monday. ;>)

[DukieInBrasil]

I am just so tired of this stuff. While there clearly seems to be truth to the idea that for the past couple of decades or so Coach K and staff have taught defensive players to draw a charge by anticipating when an opposing offensive player is going to make an aggressive move and either beat them to a spot and wait to be run into or hold their ground and wait to be run into, that is not what I think of as flopping. I understand flopping to be when the defensive player makes it look as if he has been violently run into when he really hasn't. In other words, exaggerating for effect. Duke players don't seem to fake this move very often at all. Certainly not anywhere close to as often as I have seen many others do. And while I personally am not really sold on Coach K's idea of simply allowing oneself to be run into in an attempt to draw a charge, even though it is legal, that is not the same thing as pretending something happened that did not. It's irksome that commentators--like Dan Patrick--don't draw a distinction between the two.

Ryan Kelly flops alot. I agree with you that K and the staff teach proper defense and to not shy away from taking contact to draw a charging call, anticipation and etc., like you said. However, Duke has some floppers, like Kelly. However, Duke also had the King of Charges-taken, Battier, whose anticipation and positioning led to charges other floppers only dream of getting.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Duke didn't invent the technique of flopping but unfortunately the flopping stigma is Duke's burden to bear due to "everybody hates a winner syndrome".

[roywhite]

Ryan Kelly flops alot. I agree with you that K and the staff teach proper defense and to not shy away from taking contact to draw a charging call, anticipation and etc., like you said. However, Duke has some floppers, like Kelly. However, Duke also had the King of Charges-taken, Battier, whose anticipation and positioning led to charges other floppers only dream of getting.

Before Battier, before Wojo, before even K at Duke, guess who loved and taught flopping or taking the charge?

El-Deano himself.

[muzikfrk75]

I didn't know that Vlade Divac went to Duke...

[DeBlueDevil]

I really don't think I did. While I was bouncing around stations, I stopped and was listening to the Curry interview for a full 3-4 minutes before the flopping thing came up, so I heard the entire context. And I did detect seriousness in the "blame Duke" comment, if not the "Duke has their own film room to teach this specifically" follow-up question by Patrick.

This did not sound to me like Patrick poking fun at the whining of anti-Duke fans on this issue. To the contrary, it sounded to me like he was stoking the anti-Duke fires, which is always good for ratings.



Totally agree with you. It's guys like Patrick being too lazy, or too ignorant, to draw that distinction, so he repeats his uninformed statements every chance he gets, and the result is that other lazy and/or ignorant people adopt these memes and repeat them, and on and on, until it becomes conventional wisdom in the largely brainless media and then parroted by fans everywhere.

You just made my point for me. You hadn't been listening the whole show. You came in on the conversation with Steph. You are correct in your analyzation of the Curry interview but if you would have been listening the whole show you would have noticed that the comment was made jokingly earlier in the show to poke fun at the "Duke flops" idea before he had Steph on. He only brought it up in the interview as a talking point and a way to get Steph Curry to loosen up and bring a humorous vibe to the conversation, as he does with many of his interviews. I'm even willing to bet you he probably only mentioned Duke merely because he knows Steph's brother plays for Duke. Anyways, I could see how you would take the comment that way but again I really didn't see the seriousness that you do.

However, I do realize you are entitled to your opinion so be it but I would encourage you to listen to the podcast of the show and perhaps you would realize the comment wasn't serious at all.

[lotusland]

Ryan Kelly flops alot. I agree with you that K and the staff teach proper defense and to not shy away from taking contact to draw a charging call, anticipation and etc., like you said. However, Duke has some floppers, like Kelly. However, Duke also had the King of Charges-taken, Battier, whose anticipation and positioning led to charges other floppers only dream of getting.

What I've seen Ryan do is not actually a flop but it is bad defense. Occasionally he will setup in the lane to take a charge too soon allowing the dribbler to adjust. Instead of moving his feet in this situation he will lean/slide over while the offensive player is in the air. He's correctly been called for a block for doing that several times.

I don't think flop is the right term most of the time. When players try to draw a charge they usually keep their feet set after the contact. It doesn't take much contact to knock you down if you don't step back after the contact. I don't think you are required to keep your feet set after the contact to draw a charge but I guess that sells it better. The result is that players fall down after moderate contact and appear to be "acting". Actually they just stop their bodies from making its natural adjustment to stay on their feet. Sometimes players will also anticipate the contact and begin leaning back beforehand, bend their knees, hit the ground with their posterior and roll back for a soft landing which can appear as choreographed as gymnast's dismount because it is.

I'd rather the officials call it the same if they just step back after the contact. I also don't have a problem with a no call if the player has position but there is only a little contact but normally if there is contact outside the circle the officials are going to call something.

[BD80]

I didn't know that Vlade Divac went to Duke...

Poor Vlade crashed onto his butt at the mere mention of his name in your post