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  1. #1
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    All-Time ACC MBB Team

    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    I have never wavered in my belief that Phil Ford is the best ACC point guard I have seen. Now in the day of early departures I just don't see my opinion (for what that is worth) ever changing. His consistent play over four years and his ability to control and dominate a game set him apart. He averaged over 50% from the floor all four years. I never respected a UNC player more.
    Ford has to be on the All Time ACC First team. He was that good. He invented "Stop and Pop". The guy would dribble the length of the floor at Mach 1, stop on a dime and drain a mid-range jumper, time and time again. Dribbling was like a yo-yo on a string. Hurley was awesome, and deserves to be in the conversation, but Ford gets the nod.

    Despite the many great players in recent years, the starting backcourt for the All-Time ACC team would still be Phil Ford and David Thompson. Ralph Sampson would be the starting Center. From there it gets complicated.

  2. #2
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    Interesting turn of thread.

    I'll see Ford and DT. Not so certain about Ralph.

    I do think Laettner has a place on first team, though. Duke Blue glasses and all.

    -jk

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Interesting turn of thread.

    I'll see Ford and DT. Not so certain about Ralph.

    I do think Laettner has a place on first team, though. Duke Blue glasses and all.

    -jk
    I agree Laettner has to be first team as well. Big Ralph was a 3 Time National Player of the year if memory serves. Despite the lack of titles, not sure how he can be omitted.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Despite the many great players in recent years, the starting backcourt for the All-Time ACC team would still be Phil Ford and David Thompson. Ralph Sampson would be the starting Center. From there it gets complicated.
    There must be several threads on All-Time ACC, which I'll ignore, and just comment here that I'd think it would not be that controversial [Ha!] to say it only gets complicated after:
    • PG - Ford
    • SF - Thompson
    • PF - Laettner
    • C - Sampson

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Ford has to be on the All Time ACC First team. He was that good. He invented "Stop and Pop". The guy would dribble the length of the floor at Mach 1, stop on a dime and drain a mid-range jumper, time and time again. Dribbling was like a yo-yo on a string. Hurley was awesome, and deserves to be in the conversation, but Ford gets the nod.

    Despite the many great players in recent years, the starting backcourt for the All-Time ACC team would still be Phil Ford and David Thompson. Ralph Sampson would be the starting Center. From there it gets complicated.
    It doesn't get very complicated, at least on DBR. Laettner is one of the ten best collegians of all time -- and I would put him closer to top five. Four final fours. Two NCs, where he was MOP once. Two-time All-American. National Player of the Year. Greatest shot in NCAA history. Laettner is after David Thompson in the ACC, but probably ahead of Ford and Sampson.

    sagegrouse

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    There must be several threads on All-Time ACC, which I'll ignore, and just comment here that I'd think it would not be that controversial [Ha!] to say it only gets complicated after:
    • PG - Ford
    • SF - Thompson
    • PF - Laettner
    • C - Sampson
    I know that David Thompson is legend and all -- deservedly so -- but I would love to see a prime-time match between him and Len Bias. Certainly the most undefendable player I can recall.

  7. #7
    Please nobody suggest MJ as a shoo-in at SG....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnandburn55 View Post
    Please nobody suggest MJ as a shoo-in at SG....
    Certainly not the ACC's best college sg, let alone the heels.

    Crappy baseball player, too.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I know that David Thompson is legend and all -- deservedly so -- but I would love to see a prime-time match between him and Len Bias. Certainly the most undefendable player I can recall.
    I'm inclined to stick with the 4 I listed as automatics. But if we look at some players as tweeners, we might get Bias in there this way:

    • PG - Ford
    • SG - Thompson
    • SF - Bias
    • PF - Laettner
    • C- Sampson

    Now, maybe some might reply that this places 3 of the 5 out of their normal position, as Thompson was mostly a SF, Bias a PF [was he??], and Laettner a C. If one insists that Thompson was a SF, period, then I'll stick with him at that spot.

  10. #10

    all-time

    My personal observation of ACC basketball dates back to the late 1950s, so I can't really talk about Shavlik, Rosenbluth, Hemric or any of the stars of the '50s. I always hate these internet threads because they are so biased towards recent years and negate the old-time guys. Other players are judged superficially.

    But we all have opinions.

    My question is: Are we picking the top 5 by position? Are we putting together a team that could play together? Are we basing it on peak performance? On overall career perforance? On actual talent?

    If I were picking a five-man team based on cumulative college performance, I think there are three non-debatable picks:

    (1) David Thompson is the greatest player in ACC history and it's not even close. Len Bias? Are you kidding me? Len Bias led the ACC in scoring twice, averaging 18.3 ppg in 1985 and 23.2 in 1986 (with a shot clock). He was a consensus first-team All-American as a senior ... never national player of the year (in fact, in his best year, a conference rival won a major national player of the year award). The two years he was a great player, his team finished a cumulative 14-14 in the ACC.

    Thompson on the other hand, averaged 24.7 as a sophomore, 26.0 as a junior and 29.9 as a senior. He shot better from the floor (over 55 percent to 53.6 for Bias). At 6-4, he was a better rebounder than the 6-8 Bias (8.1 to 5.7 for their careers). Thompson was three times consensus first-team All-American and the only reason he wasn't four time was that freshmen weren't eligible his freshman year. His three State teams finished 79-7 (and 32-4 in the ACC). Thompson had better individual stats, won more national awards and played on more successful teams. There is not one criteria that puts Bias -- or anybody else -- in his class.

    (2) Christian Laettner's numbers are great (he finished his career as the No. 5 scorer and No. 10 rebounder in ACC history ... he's still No 7 and No. 14 in those categories). It could be argued that hhe was the greatest 3-point shooter in ACC history (his 48.5 career average is the best for anybody who attempted more than 100 3 pt field goals in a career). His individual honors are good -- three-time All-American, 1992 national player of the year. But what earns him a spot on this team, ahead of a few other guys with similar or better numbers, is the fact that he is the greatest postseason player in ACC -- and maybe NCAA history. The first and still only player to start on four Final Four teams -- he is justly famous for his clutch NCAA play, especially in regional victories over Georgetown, UConn and Kentucky, plus of course his Final Four MVP in 1991. Still the leading career scorer in NCAA Tournament history. He was 21-2 in NCAA play!

    (3) Phil Ford is a lock IF we have to pick a point guard. If positions don't matter, then he becomes borderline top 5 (but still top 10). But he's clearly the No. 1 point guard in ACC history -- the top scorer at the position and while only 10th in assists, his assist numbers are better than his rank because of how they were awarded in his era. Obviously, the rules at the time helped make him greater than he would be today with a shot clock, but those were the rules at the time and Ford made the Four Corners the most fared (and hated) tactic in college basketball.

    I'm not going to be pick a 4th and 5th guy because I think you can make the case for a lot of guys and there's little to choose among them. You want to argue Bias in the top 5, I'm fine with that -- just don't compare him to Thompson. You can make a case for Tim Duncan, Len Chappell, Larry Miller, Charlie Scott, Johnny Dawkins, Grant Hill, John Lucas, Shane Battier, Tyler Hansbrough, Tommy Burleson, Jason Williams. You could push for one of the '50s guys -- certainly Shavlik and Rosenbluth have eye-popping stats and played on dominant teams.

    However, I will argue that Ralph Sampson is NOT a lock and wouldn not have a place on my team, despite his three national player of the year awards. I can't dispute that he won them, but I would argue that he didn't deserve them -- any of them. Ralph was the greatest choke artist in ACC histiory. A guy with all the talent in the world, but a guy who never wanted the spotlight and never wanted to take the clutch shot. I think the way his career ended is illustrative -- down one point to NC State in the West Regional finals, Ralph passed up the potential game-winning shot. When a teammate missed at the buzzer, Ralph ran down the rebound and at least two seconds after the buzzer (when the pressure was off) he swished a turn-around 15-footer. That was Ralph Sampson. He averaged a modest 16.9 points and a solid 11.9 rebounds and blocked 462 shots in his career. Just compare that with Tommy Burleson, who averaqed 19.0 points and 12.3 reounds for his career; Tim Duncan, who averaged 16.5 points, 12.3 rebounds and blocked 481 shots in his career. Or Mike Gminski (whose career overlapped Sampson's) who averaged 19.0 points, 10.2 rebounds and blocked 345 shots or Tyler Hansbrough, who averaged 20.6 points and 8.2 rebounds. Of course, none of those numbers compare with Wake big man Len Chappell, who averaged 24.9 points an 13.9 rebounds (we don't have his blocked shots).

    Not only did Duncan, Gminski, Burleson, Hansbrough and Chappell put up similar or better numbers, they all did it on teams that actually won something (each of them played on teams that one two ACC championships ... Ralph won none).

    PS One interesting note about Michael Jordan and Jason Williams. By almost any measure, they had almost exactly the same college careers. Actually, Jason scored more -- 19.3 ppg to 17.7 (although some of that may be due to the 3-point shot). Jordan rebounded better, while Jason was one of the top assist men in ACC history. But look at the awards they won -- both were two-time first-team All-ACC and two-time concensus All-Americans. Each won a single NPOY award as a sophomore (Jordan the Sporting News; Jason the NABC) and both were consensus national players of the year as juniors. Jordan won an ACC POY and Jason didn't, but Jason was ACC Tournament MVP and Jordan didn't. Their teams had similar success -- each winning a national championship; each was also upset by an SEC team in Syracuse's Carrier Dome in one East Regional (Jordan and UNC by Georgia in 1983; Jason and Duke by Florida in 2000); each ended his career on a dismal note, being upset by Indiana in the Sweet 16.

    Jason played on three teams that finished No. 1 in the AP poll and on three ACC championship teams; Jordan played on two teams that finished No. 1 and one ACC championship team.

    Jason did go higher in the draft -- No. 2 as opposed to Jordan's No. 3.

    So which had the better COLLEGE career?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    I'm inclined to stick with the 4 I listed as automatics. But if we look at some players as tweeners, we might get Bias in there this way:

    • PG - Ford
    • SG - Thompson
    • SF - Bias
    • PF - Laettner
    • C- Sampson

    Now, maybe some might reply that this places 3 of the 5 out of their normal position, as Thompson was mostly a SF, Bias a PF [was he??], and Laettner a C. If one insists that Thompson was a SF, period, then I'll stick with him at that spot.
    If memory serves, Bias and Derrick Lewis were somewhat interchangeable at the 3 and 4 for the Terps in 85 and 86. Same with Lennie and Herman Veal the prior two years, although Veal was definitely more an interior player despite standing only 6'6". I recall Alarie generally defending Bias when we played them, though.

    Veal was charged with sexual assault at one point in his career, and I believe it was after an '84 game at Cameron when Crazies threw panties and condoms on the court as Veal was being introduced that the WaPost wrote an editorial criticizing our behavior, which in turn led to the famous "avuncular letter" from Terry Sanford.

  12. #12

    Grant

    Laettner and Thompson are automatic. I'll agree on Phil Ford but I don't think he'a automatic. My final 2 are Duncan and Grant Hill. I may be covering every position instead of taking the best 5 but I think there are only 2 automatics and the rest is debatable. Jonny Dawkins, James Worthy, Tyler Hansbrough and Ralph Sampson are certainly in the conversation.

    Grant Hill above Bias, JayDub and Jordan.

    I know ifs and buts aren't worth much but Hill was just one Scotty Thurmond prayer away from being arguably the greatest Blue Devil ever. Imagine 3 Championships after a flat out dominant Senior year where he played every position on the court on both offense and defense. He guarded the opponents best player whether it was Randolph Childress or Glenn Robinson. Duke did not have anything close to a final four caliber lineup without Hill and we all know what happened to Duke after Hill graduated.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    Laettner and Thompson are automatic. I'll agree on Phil Ford but I don't think he'a automatic. My final 2 are Duncan and Grant Hill. I may be covering every position instead of taking the best 5 but I think there are only 2 automatics and the rest is debatable.
    I agree that Grant and Duncan are very much in the conversation, but....

    If Laettner and Thompson are automatic [surely yes], and we're covering every position [apparently the only way Ford makes top 5??], then Grant must be shut out. For Thompson didn't play SG in college, did he? And if Thompson is the SF, then Grant's out. But wait, he actually played plenty of PF at Duke, but Laettner is, like Thompson, automatic.

    Now one might argue, if Laettner's automatic [surely yes], that he actually mostly played C. Thus:

    • PG - Ford
    • SG - ??? [many superb players, several Duke guys]
    • SF - Thompson [automatic, at his actual college position]
    • PF - Hill/Bias, maybe Worthy
    • C - Laettner [automatic, at his actual college position]

  14. #14

    Phil Ford?

    Without disagreeing about his inclusion in the list, I must note that Phil Ford walked every time he did the stop and pop.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    I agree that Grant and Duncan are very much in the conversation, but....

    If Laettner and Thompson are automatic [surely yes], and we're covering every position [apparently the only way Ford makes top 5??], then Grant must be shut out. For Thompson didn't play SG in college, did he? And if Thompson is the SF, then Grant's out. But wait, he actually played plenty of PF at Duke, but Laettner is, like Thompson, automatic.

    Now one might argue, if Laettner's automatic [surely yes], that he actually mostly played C. Thus:

    • PG - Ford
    • SG - ??? [many superb players, several Duke guys]
    • SF - Thompson [automatic, at his actual college position]
    • PF - Hill/Bias, maybe Worthy
    • C - Laettner [automatic, at his actual college position]

    Jason Williams comes to mind at the SG spot, based on your position assumptions.

    He acheived a lot in 3 years, had several outstanding performances, and was a key player on a National Championship team.
    Was there a 3-year player who had a higher scoring total?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Jason Williams comes to mind at the SG spot, based on your position assumptions.

    He acheived a lot in 3 years, had several outstanding performances, and was a key player on a National Championship team. Was there a 3-year player who had a higher scoring total?
    Three Duke guys would be in the SG conversation: Dawkins, Williams, Redick. I think Olympic Fan has shown in a previous post that JWill nips Jordan. And in fact it seems uncontroversial to me to assert that Jordan is not on this team, either by position or top 5 ACC, period. He became an all-time NBA great [and arguably the greatest], but he wasn't that in college.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    Three Duke guys would be in the SG conversation: Dawkins, Williams, Redick. I think Olympic Fan has shown in a previous post that JWill nips Jordan. And in fact it seems uncontroversial to me to assert that Jordan is not on this team, either by position or top 5 ACC, period. He became an all-time NBA great [and arguably the greatest], but he wasn't that in college.
    To paraphrase a previous poster

    I love JJ Redick

    I love JJ Redick

    I love JJ Redick

    But I'd take Jay Dubs over Redick any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Unless I needed a designate foul shooter (commence head-shaking)

  18. #18
    If sustained excellence within the ACC were to be the main criterion, then an objective standard might be making first team All-ACC at least three times. On top of that, one might hope that the members of the all-time team were dominant enough to win ACC Player of the Year at least once. According to the 2011 ACC Basketball Guide, 15 players meet this standard. Five of those won ACC POY at least twice: Duncan, Sampson, Thompson, John Roche, and Chappell. If the team is by position, then this 5 lacks someone to distribute the ball. Only one point guard made first team all-ACC three times -- Ford. So, by one set of objective criteria that focuses on sustained excellence within the league, one might put this team on the floor:

    PG Ford
    SG Roche
    SF Thompson
    PF Sampson
    C Duncan

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by turnandburn55 View Post
    To paraphrase a previous poster

    I love JJ Redick

    I love JJ Redick

    I love JJ Redick

    But I'd take Jay Dubs over Redick any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Unless I needed a designate foul shooter (commence head-shaking)
    Can't disagree, including, btw, the head-shake.

    I'd take Dawkins over JWill.

    And so, without much fudging at all, I could get 3 Devils on this team: Laettner, Dawkins, and Hill, with each at the position he actually played most of the time in college.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    If sustained excellence within the ACC were to be the main criterion, then an objective standard might be making first team All-ACC at least three times. On top of that, one might hope that the members of the all-time team were dominant enough to win ACC Player of the Year at least once. According to the 2011 ACC Basketball Guide, 15 players meet this standard. Five of those won ACC POY at least twice: Duncan, Sampson, Thompson, John Roche, and Chappell. If the team is by position, then this 5 lacks someone to distribute the ball. Only one point guard made first team all-ACC three times -- Ford. So, by one set of objective criteria that focuses on sustained excellence within the league, one might put this team on the floor:

    PG Ford
    SG Roche
    SF Thompson
    PF Sampson
    C Duncan
    Sorry, the second to last sentence should be: "Only one point guard made first team all-ACC three times and was an ACC POY..."

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