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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    We have discussed this many times in this thread. Try pressing the rewind button
    Oh, I've been reading the thread. I'm wondering why no one outside our hallowed virtual halls isn't asking this question - someplace like, say, ESPN. Maybe someone at the national level is asking this question and I've missed it.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkieDukie View Post
    Here's a question I'm not sure anyone is asking: what does this do to their graduation rate? At what point do they reach the point of being penalized a la UConn?
    I would love to see their ACTUAL attendance rate (as opposed to reported) since the tourney.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkieDukie View Post
    Oh, I've been reading the thread. I'm wondering why no one outside our hallowed virtual halls isn't asking this question - someplace like, say, ESPN. Maybe someone at the national level is asking this question and I've missed it.
    It doesn't count against the APR if they leave for the pros - as long as they maintain good academic standing until they leave. I'm sure it's not hard to do what with the tough course requirements of underwater basket weaving, etc.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    It doesn't count against the APR if they leave for the pros - as long as they maintain good academic standing until they leave. I'm sure it's not hard to do what with the tough course requirements of underwater basket weaving, etc.
    Wow. Really? That's just wrong. If that's the case, then I think it's unfair to punish UConn. (sorry for the thread hijack. Maybe this topic warrants its own thread.)

  5. #345
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    I hate to break it to y'all but your beloved Students that play sports at Duke did not even break the top 20 in the latest graduation rates for basketball players. Some notables that finished higher than Duke - Kansas, DePaul, Butler, West Virginia, Michigan State, Penn State, and Cincinnati. Oh and Lehigh.

    I love college basketball. I think Coach K is the best there ever has been or will ever be. But let's not make it more than what it really is.

    That dog don't hunt anymore.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTankerous View Post
    I hate to break it to y'all but your beloved Students that play sports at Duke did not even break the top 20 in the latest graduation rates for basketball players. Some notables that finished higher than Duke - Kansas, DePaul, Butler, West Virginia, Michigan State, Penn State, and Cincinnati. Oh and Lehigh.

    I love college basketball. I think Coach K is the best there ever has been or will ever be. But let's not make it more than what it really is.

    That dog don't hunt anymore.
    Actually, we were #20 in most recent men's basketball APR (I guess technically we were tied with five others)... and keeping very good company. And as you can see, our ranking has fluctuated a bit over the last 6 years but remains very strong.

    I don't think anyone is making it more than it is. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to "manage" the APR (although Ucon clearly didn't get the memo). But still, it's obviously tough to perform at a high level both on and off the court and a legitimate question to be asking about programs that are pretty clearly over-emphasizing "on court" performance.

    Given the data, I'd say we should continue to hold our heads quite high regarding the way K continues to lead the program in this changing competitive environment.


    Duke Men's Basketball APR by Year
    Year Score Rank
    2009 - 2010
    2008 - 2009
    2007 - 2008
    2006 - 2007
    2005 - 2006
    2004 - 2005
    990
    980
    989
    984
    972
    978
    20
    41
    16
    20
    48
    49



    Rank School 2009-2010 Rate
    1
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    8
    9
    10
    11
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    26
    27
    28
    29
    30
    Butler University
    College of the Holy Cross
    Columbia University-Barnard College
    DePaul University
    University of Kansas
    University of Texas at Austin
    Princeton University
    Yale University
    Belmont University
    Davidson College
    Elon University
    Michigan State University
    Pennsylvania State University
    West Virginia University
    Bucknell University
    Lehigh University
    University of Cincinnati
    Brigham Young University
    Harvard University
    Duke University
    East Tennessee State University
    George Mason University
    Loyola University Chicago
    Northwestern University
    University of Utah
    University of Memphis
    University of Notre Dame
    Cornell University
    U.S. Naval Academy
    Brown University
    1000
    1000
    1000
    1000
    1000
    1000
    996
    996
    995
    995
    995
    995
    995
    995
    994
    994
    992
    991
    991
    990
    990
    990
    990
    990
    990
    989
    989
    988
    986
    985

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    ... I'm sure it's not hard to do what with the tough course requirements of underwater basket weaving, etc.
    Hey now. Careful. Say what you want about basketweaving as a class, but UNDERWATER basketweaving is another story entirely.

    I actually have a certificate in underwater basketweaving - from who was then the only certified underwater basketweaving instructor. Most don't pass the first time around. It requires excellant boyancy control. Kentucky does have some beautiful man-made lakes that would be suitable for scuba diving.

  8. #348
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    Dev11 is offline Commissioner of Statistics, DBR Podcast
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTankerous View Post
    I hate to break it to y'all but your beloved Students that play sports at Duke did not even break the top 20 in the latest graduation rates for basketball players.
    20 out of 330+ is still pretty damn good, particularly for a program that only recruits kids with professional basketball aspirations. Props then to KU and MSU, too.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTankerous View Post
    I hate to break it to y'all but your beloved Students that play sports at Duke did not even break the top 20 in the latest graduation rates for basketball players. Some notables that finished higher than Duke - Kansas, DePaul, Butler, West Virginia, Michigan State, Penn State, and Cincinnati. Oh and Lehigh.

    I love college basketball. I think Coach K is the best there ever has been or will ever be. But let's not make it more than what it really is.

    That dog don't hunt anymore.
    So we're in the 94th percentile; I don't see any reason to be ashamed of that. Here is how the APR is calculated:

    Each student-athlete receiving athletically related financial aid earns one retention point for staying in school and one eligibility point for being academically eligible. A team’s total points are divided by points possible and then multiplied by one thousand to equal the team’s Academic Progress Rate score.

    Exceptions are granted for players leaving school in good standing (transferring or going pro). A 990 means that we got 99 out of 100 possible points over the four-year span of 2006-2010. Since (to my knowledge) no one was ruled academically ineligible in that period, that one lost point must have been from (a) a player transferring to another school who was not in good standing, or (b) a player going pro who was not in good standing. So, basically, one player might have failed one class on his way out the door after having been academically eligible up to that point. Or that one player took fewer credits than were required during his last semester at Duke but wasn't around in the summer to make them up. But since "in good standing" vs. "not in good standing" is a pretty broad brush with which to paint, it might help to look a little closer, so I tried to find team GPAs to compare. The only ones I could find online (http://www.kentucky.com/2010/05/02/1...gpa-scale.html) were from our 2010 national championship squad:

    Duke 3.01
    Louisville 3.0
    Kansas 2.95
    Kentucky 2.025

    Our GPA there is pretty solid in my book, because I know firsthand that classes at Duke can be tough. Perhaps, on average, they are even tougher than classes at the other schools you mention (e.g., our lowest-level math course is Calculus)...? That I cannot really say. But I have had some classes with basketball players, and while I don't know what their individual grades were, I do know that they attended class every day unless they were traveling for a game. I don't know who that one player was who wasn't in good standing when he left, but he is clearly the exception to the rule.

    So I'm sorry, but your sniping is misplaced. That dog still hunts very well.
    Last edited by El_Diablo; 04-18-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  10. #350

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    And based on Jordan's history, he sure has shown himself to be a good judge of talent...

    It's a very risky strategy. Since the weighted lottery was introduced in 1990, the team with the worst record has only won the lottery 3 times. 3/21. Everyone expects Anthony Davis to be a game changer, but after that? Kidd-Gilchrist could be a star, but that's far from certain. Austin Rivers? Charlotte seems set at guard with Kemba and G. Maybe they are hoping to draft Harrison Bryce-Jordan Barnes?
    [Note: I spliced this over from the other Draft thread because I think it is more appropriate in the non-Duke thread]

    And even in regards to Davis, is he really that much of a sure thing? To be honest, I'm surprised that I've seen almost no one question his ceiling in the NBA. Obviously, he is a tremendous talent with fantastic length, but I'm concerned with his frame. He is extremely wiry. What if he simply cannot put on the necessary weight to bang down low in the NBA? Sure, he would still be okay as a weak-side defender, but at the next level, I'm not sure he will be strong enough to play the same kind of other-worldly, all-around defense. And though his offense is adequate, I don't think it would be enough to offset the drawbacks if Davis does not pan out as a defensive all-star.

    I definitely think he has enormous promise as an NBA center. But I also have doubts, and it is strange to me that no one else seems to have similar reservations.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    [Note: I spliced this over from the other Draft thread because I think it is more appropriate in the non-Duke thread]

    And even in regards to Davis, is he really that much of a sure thing? To be honest, I'm surprised that I've seen almost no one question his ceiling in the NBA. Obviously, he is a tremendous talent with fantastic length, but I'm concerned with his frame. He is extremely wiry. What if he simply cannot put on the necessary weight to bang down low in the NBA? Sure, he would still be okay as a weak-side defender, but at the next level, I'm not sure he will be strong enough to play the same kind of other-worldly, all-around defense. And though his offense is adequate, I don't think it would be enough to offset the drawbacks if Davis does not pan out as a defensive all-star.

    I definitely think he has enormous promise as an NBA center. But I also have doubts, and it is strange to me that no one else seems to have similar reservations.
    I agree with you. He's a very talented player. But he's also really skinny, and at the next level his athleticism isn't otherwordly anymore. Guys like Tyrus Thomas come to mind in terms of being really athletic and long, but not terribly good. He's probably somewhere between Marcus Camby and Thomas physically and in terms of offensive polish. Camby became a very solid player in the NBA, but never a superstar. Thomas has never become more than a role player. That's not to say that Davis can't surpass Camby. Just that he there's the definite potential that he could miss, given his slight frame and somewhat raw offensive game.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I agree with you. He's a very talented player. But he's also really skinny, and at the next level his athleticism isn't otherwordly anymore. Guys like Tyrus Thomas come to mind in terms of being really athletic and long, but not terribly good. He's probably somewhere between Marcus Camby and Thomas physically and in terms of offensive polish. Camby became a very solid player in the NBA, but never a superstar. Thomas has never become more than a role player. That's not to say that Davis can't surpass Camby. Just that he there's the definite potential that he could miss, given his slight frame and somewhat raw offensive game.
    Physically, sure. But was Camby more polished offensively after his freshman year of college? I don't remember enough about his game back then, so I'm asking it as a genuine question. I find it exceptionally hard to believe he had a handle or shot from distance that approached what Davis can do right now. He probably had the superior post game, but doesn't that make it a push? Further, the rate at which you could see Davis adding aspects to his game in-season was downright alarming.

    The other thing I'd note is that while Davis is presently skinny, the kid has broad shoulders. His frame is such that you can expect him to fill out, probably pretty impressively. A guy like Thomas has never been that broad. (I'd also say that Thomas maybe muddies the waters in this discussion because his pedigree was nothing like Camby or Davis's. Unlike those two, he was an NCAA tournament creation. #4 in the draft was not where anyone had him slotted coming into March that year. Davis and Camby were regarded as fantastic prospects all season long the year they came out.)

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Des Esseintes View Post
    Physically, sure. But was Camby more polished offensively after his freshman year of college? I don't remember enough about his game back then, so I'm asking it as a genuine question. I find it exceptionally hard to believe he had a handle or shot from distance that approached what Davis can do right now. He probably had the superior post game, but doesn't that make it a push? Further, the rate at which you could see Davis adding aspects to his game in-season was downright alarming.

    The other thing I'd note is that while Davis is presently skinny, the kid has broad shoulders. His frame is such that you can expect him to fill out, probably pretty impressively. A guy like Thomas has never been that broad. (I'd also say that Thomas maybe muddies the waters in this discussion because his pedigree was nothing like Camby or Davis's. Unlike those two, he was an NCAA tournament creation. #4 in the draft was not where anyone had him slotted coming into March that year. Davis and Camby were regarded as fantastic prospects all season long the year they came out.)
    They aren't perfect examples (few ever are). Camby was a decent scorer as a freshman, but not a standout. Davis is certainly much further along as a freshman. My point wasn't to suggest he'll be just like either of those guys. He's a better prospect than either, for sure. I was just saying that he indeed has legitimate questions regarding whether or not he can translate to the next level (where he'll need to gain weight/strength while not losing explosiveness and he'll need to continue to improve his offensive game).

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    They aren't perfect examples (few ever are). Camby was a decent scorer as a freshman, but not a standout. Davis is certainly much further along as a freshman. My point wasn't to suggest he'll be just like either of those guys. He's a better prospect than either, for sure. I was just saying that he indeed has legitimate questions regarding whether or not he can translate to the next level (where he'll need to gain weight/strength while not losing explosiveness and he'll need to continue to improve his offensive game).
    Basically, I see this year's draft as loaded, but risky. There are a lot of prospects with both very high ceilings and very large questions, and I could easily see a bunch of them slowly dropping off of rosters once they get into the league. The only lottery pick which I view as a guarantee -- not necessarily to be a star, but to be reliably productive for a lengthy career -- would be Gilchrist. In everyone else, I see great potential for failure.

    If MJ did in fact tank his team to get a top draft pick this year, I don't think he picked the best year to do so, risk-wise. There just aren't any Kyrie's in the field this time around.

  16. #356
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    Chad Ford's weekly chat. Nothing terribly exciting in here compared to week's past.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    So we're in the 94th percentile; I don't see any reason to be ashamed of that. Here is how the APR is calculated:
    Yeah, and I don't think there's a huge difference between a 990 score and a perfect 1000. As you said, it means we scored 99 out of a possible 100 points. If I'm understanding the calculation correctly, a player who successfully completes two semesters of school with the intent on returning the following year (or who graduates, or leaves for the NBA) earns four points (two for each semester). So out of 25 player-years there was one semester in which a player either didn't remain academically eligible or did not return. Not exactly an embarrassment. The NCAA minimum for a school is 925, which would be like 7-8 eight instances of this happening across 25 player-years.

  18. #358
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    Quincy changes his mind

    Very interesting. Marc Spears of Yahoo Sports says that Quincy Miller, despite previously announcing he would be returning to Baylor, will declare for the draft and hire Dwon Clifton (no surprise there) as his agent.

    Big hit for Baylor as they lose Perry Jones III and Quincy Miller early
    Coach K on Kyle Singler - "What position does he play? ... He plays winner."

    "Duke is never the underdog" - Quinn Cook

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Chad Ford's weekly chat. Nothing terribly exciting in here compared to week's past.
    I did find this interesting...
    Especially when it looks like NC State could win the ACC next year and be a Top 5 team.
    It is also obvious that Chad has a serious man crush on MKG, which, I can't say I blame him...

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Dingleberry View Post
    I did find this interesting...

    It is also obvious that Chad has a serious man crush on MKG, which, I can't say I blame him...
    Yeah, I enjoyed watching Gilchrist in the NCAAs. When he was not scoring, he found other ways to impact the game. He just kept coming after people.

    Ford has him at #2 on the big board. I almost think Charlotte should get the #1 and #2's this year, or fold up the franchise and contract. Jordan must be half-drunk all the time down there.

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