Top 5 Dukies

[lotusland]

If I had to put together a conventional team that would most likely beat all others it would be:

Hurley
Hill
Laettner
Brand
Dawkins

No matter how you cut it, the bench would be a dream too:

Battier
Williams
Ferry
Heyman
Gminski
Reddick

Most unbeatable is a different list altogether. In that case you need complimetary players.

1-5 I'd go with Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, Laettner, Sheldon. Sheldon being the most controversial of course but there are only so many shots to go around so Hurley and Williams provide assists, Rebounding, defense and shot blocking. I don't think we lose much by "going small" and moving Laettner to the 5 with Battier at the 4.

[CBDUKE]

Heyman was a 6' 5" (probably more like 6' 3") rebounding and scoring machine. He was not a great shooter, but he was a great scorer as his 25+ point a game avg. will attest. He was the guy you gave the ball to and said go win this game, and he usually did. Think of Christian's intensity and you have the same in Art (if not more). I don't know who to compare him to today to help you out, but Art and Christian are 1 and 2 in Duke history. You can pick which one is 1. My pick is Art Heyman. Go look at his stats which were accomplished in 3 years. I hope this helps a little.

[superdave]

Heyman was a 6' 5" (probably more like 6' 3") rebounding and scoring machine. He was not a great shooter, but he was a great scorer as his 25+ point a game avg. will attest. He was the guy you gave the ball to and said go win this game, and he usually did. Think of Christian's intensity and you have the same in Art (if not more). I don't know who to compare him to today to help you out, but Art and Christian are 1 and 2 in Duke history. You can pick which one is 1. My pick is Art Heyman. Go look at his stats which were accomplished in 3 years. I hope this helps a little.

I appreciate your perspective. I have always enjoyed hearing about him taking on the UNC team in that fight. My kind of player!

[Jarhead]

This is terrible. Here we are discussing the top five Duke players, but why limit it to five. Every one of those guys whose banners are hanging in the Cameron rafters should be in that top five. He||, we could possibly have ten or more guys tied for the number one of the top five. We can't leave out JJ or Battier, and how did we manage to leave out Dick Groat? What about Tate Armstrong, Bob Verga, Art Heyman or Gene (Tinkerbell) Banks? For starters, let's take a look at the Bleacher Report list of the fifty greatest Duke players. They got it a bit wrong, too, but it shows a whole host of guys that have been left out in this thread.

If I were trying to make a list, I would start with a coach, let's say Mike Krzyzewski, or Vic Bubas and give them some credit. If Duke's first All-American, Billy Werber, were to benefit from being coached by Krzyzewski, how would he stack up? How tough would that be. Actually? It's impossible, but it's the only fair way to evaluate players from the past. I don't like limiting any ranking to just five unless it were possible to do it objectively. Come up with an objective standard, and I'm on board with that.

[phaedrus]

Laettner Hill and Hurley should be automatic in my book. Hurley is the NCAA all-time leading assist leader.

What if we go with the following:

Top 2: Grant Hill and Christian Laettner

Top 6: Shane Battier, Bobby Hurley, Johnny Dawkins, Jason Williams

Top 11: Heyman, Gminski, Groat, Redick, Ferry

Honorable Mentions: Everyone else with a retired jersey, plus Elton Brand and Jon Scheyer. Singler moves into the Top 12 if he wins NPOY.

I feel fairly confident that, at the very least, everyone agrees that my Top 2 are in the Top 5.

[4decadedukie]

1) Duke basketball did not begin with Coach K's appearance on campus (and this certainly is NOT disrespectful or unmindful of the peerless accomplishments made during his tenure); Groat, Mullins, Heyman, Gminski and others were stellar Duke student-athletes.
2) Even evaluating only the "K era," I would select Shane before JJ in the "top five" listing (due to leadership, tenacity, DEFENSE, and as a team-victory-catalyst).

[sagegrouse]

Read the following passage from the article:

"With four national championships during his tenure at Duke, Krzyzewski has had the privilege of coaching some of the greatest college basketball players in the history of the NCAA. Take a look back at the top five players in the history of Duke men's basketball."

The text cites only K but the lead sentence and last sentence refer to "the history of Duke men's basketball."

This is not by a known Yahoo correspondent (capital Y), but I wonder whether the editor even read it before publishing it. An article should be clear about the subject.

If restricted to the K era, I don't have major heartburn with the list. I suppose cases can be made for Ferry, Battier, Jason Williams, and Elton, all selected as National Player of the Year, but the article's top five list doesn't have any weak spots.

sagegrouse

[dball]

Appears the list is really about K era so that's fine but if listing the greatest Duke basketball players, you'd have to start with Dick Groat.

Groat was the first retired Duke Jersey and the only one prior to Coach K arriving. Nearly 30 years and a LOT of great Bubas teams later, G-man got the next and after that, K and Duke made a nice gesture by honoring Heyman (long overdue) and Mullins.

Groat had a Hall of Fame career and was a 2-time All American, player of the year and the alltime points leader (most points during a season) while in school. He scored 48 points against the UNCCH bunch. Believe that's still the most ever scored against the Heels.

Groat played a year in the NBA prior to his military service. When he got out, he decided to concentrate on baseball (was MVP one year). The guy was really, really good though granted before my time.

There was a reason that Bobby Knight cracked (during a recent PITT game) that the best basketball player in the building is Dick Groat.

[gw67]

Like some of the old timers on the site, I saw Heyman, Mullins, Marin and Verga as well as those who played for Coach K and in between. My top five would be

Laettner
Hill
Ferry
JWill
Dawkins

The toughest to leave off are two of my favorite Devils - Hurley and Battier.

Three players that I don't see mentioned in any of the posts are Jeff Mullins (3-time 1st team All ACC), Trajon Langdon (3-time 1st team All ACC) and Mark Alarie (two-time 1st team and one-time 2nd team All ACC). These are based on Charlie Board which I've found to be on the money. The depth of the quality players who have played at Duke is amazing. You can go five teams deep and still leave off outstanding college players.

gw67

[DukeDevilDeb]

Hey, I took that photo! haha. I can't believe Yahoo! Sports is actually using it...I mean, I did release it to the public domain through the Creative Commons Attribution so I don't care, but it wasn't the greatest shot in the world and is a bit blurry. (Hey, I'm not a professional photographer and I wasn't that close to him.) I guess they couldn't get anything better that was completely free to use. Funny stuff.

In any event, back to the topic, I think I'd have the following:

1.) Laettner
2.) G Hill
3.) Dawkins
4.) JWill
5.) Redick

Edit: Just realized it was an article submitted by a Yahoo! Sports user a la bleacher report. I didn't think a more legit Yahoo journalist would use that photo when they probably have AP, Reuters, etc. at their disposal.

How can you leave Hurley off, still as far as I know the NCAA Assists leader? I would bounce Redick off in a minute (while he may have been the greatest shooter or whatever, his play during tournaments never lived up to his publicity) to put Hurley and Battier on there.

Maybe what we really need is the top 5 players by decade. Johnny D is in a different decade... definitely should be on.

Smash the Spartans tonight!

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I think the biggest question is the Hurley/Williams debate. Anyone have stats to help us out?
1.) winner or Hurley/Williams
2.)Dawkins
3.)G Hill
4.)Battier
5.) Laettner

6th man Redick

[ajgoodfella7]

I think the biggest question is the Hurley/Williams debate. Anyone have stats to help us out?
1.) winner or Hurley/Williams
2.)Dawkins
3.)G Hill
4.)Battier
5.) Laettner

6th man Redick

Bobby Hurley's senior year at Duke he averaged:
17 ppg, 8.2 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.5 spg.

Jason Williams junior season at Duke he averaged:
21.2 ppg, 5.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 spg.

However they were two completely different players on two completely different teams so I'm not really sure what this will prove.

--Stats from goduke.com

[lotusland]

Bobby Hurley's senior year at Duke he averaged:
17 ppg, 8.2 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.5 spg.

Jason Williams junior season at Duke he averaged:
21.2 ppg, 5.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 spg.

However they were two completely different players on two completely different teams so I'm not really sure what this will prove.

--Stats from goduke.com

Turnovers per game is also very relevant. Hurley was a pure point guard who could also penetrate and score. Williams was a combo guard who didn't play point in HS. If you add up the points from assists assuming they were all 2 pointers Hurley is responsible for 33.4 PPG and Williams is responsible for 31.8. Also I put a premium on assist for a PG since distributing the ball and keeping everyone involved is job one. Maybe if Williams has played 4 years he could have achieved as much as Hurley but then you could extrapolate a POY season for Deng if you counted would'ves and could'ves. As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.

Without checking I would assume Hurley’s points went up and assists went down his senior year without Laettner, Hill and Davis.

[ajgoodfella7]

Turnovers per game is also very relevant. Hurley was a pure point guard who could also penetrate and score. Williams was a combo guard who didn't play point in HS. If you add up the points from assists assuming they were all 2 pointers Hurley is responsible for 33.4 PPG and Williams is responsible for 31.8. Also I put a premium on assist for a PG since distributing the ball and keeping everyone involved is job one. Maybe if Williams has played 4 years he could have achieved as much as Hurley but then you could extrapolate a POY season for Deng if you counted would'ves and could'ves. As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.

Without checking I would assume Hurley’s points went up and assists went down his senior year without Laettner, Hill and Davis.

Hey, I agree with you. Hurley is #3 on my list of all-time Dukies.

[phaedrus]

As good as he was I just don't see how Williams can make the top 5 over the all time NCAA assist leader who also scored and defended well and won two championships in 3 Final Four appearances.

Well, Williams was consensus National Player of the Year in 2002 and also won a NPOY award in 2001, while Hurley never won NPOY. Williams scored 353 more points in 3 years than Hurley did in 4. He's also 4th all-time at Duke in assists and 5th in steals (trailing only 4-year players, of course). And, obviously, he also won a national title, although unlike Hurley, he never was Final Four MOP.

So while I respect your very reasonable view that Hurley had a more distinguished career, I certainly think there is room to disagree.

[lotusland]

Appears the list is really about K era so that's fine but if listing the greatest Duke basketball players, you'd have to start with Dick Groat.

Groat was the first retired Duke Jersey and the only one prior to Coach K arriving. Nearly 30 years and a LOT of great Bubas teams later, G-man got the next and after that, K and Duke made a nice gesture by honoring Heyman (long overdue) and Mullins.

Groat had a Hall of Fame career and was a 2-time All American, player of the year and the alltime points leader (most points during a season) while in school. He scored 48 points against the UNCCH bunch. Believe that's still the most ever scored against the Heels.

Groat played a year in the NBA prior to his military service. When he got out, he decided to concentrate on baseball (was MVP one year). The guy was really, really good though granted before my time.

There was a reason that Bobby Knight cracked (during a recent PITT game) that the best basketball player in the building is Dick Groat.

Heyman and Groat played before Duke or College basketball in general were fully integrated. It's not their fault but it is a fact that they didn't play with or against the best Black players of their day. I think you have to at least take that into consideration when discussing all time greats. I think Duke's first black basketball player came in 1966, the year I was born.

[lotusland]

Well, Williams was consensus National Player of the Year in 2002 and also won a NPOY award in 2001, while Hurley never won NPOY. Williams scored 353 more points in 3 years than Hurley did in 4. He's also 4th all-time at Duke in assists and 5th in steals (trailing only 4-year players, of course). And, obviously, he also won a national title, although unlike Hurley, he never was Final Four MOP.

So while I respect your very reasonable view that Hurley had a more distinguished career, I certainly think there is room to disagree.

There is always room to disagree. For me the list starts with Laettner, Hill and Hurley and then you argue about the other two but like others have said we are fortunate to have so many all time greats to choose from.

[Rogue]

I don't think there's disagreement.. Since 1969 when they started the Naismith Award for National Player of the year,, Duke leads the nation with 7.. If you have 7 National Players of the year,, nameing a top 5 is sorta hard,, and when you consider the great talent at DUKE before 1969,, Dick Groat, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga,, we're spliting hairs as to who are the best 5.. Many of you never say the 4 listed above,, I only saw Groat play for the Pittsburg Pirate,, not at DUKE,, but I did see the other.. they were GOOD,, and no one was tougher than Art Heyman,, the man took no quarters.

One National Player of the year who isn't mentioned often , because he left early, is Elton Brand..
Thank about,, a national player of the year,, AT DUKE, and he's really not even in the conversation because his time at DUKE wasn't 4 yrs.. That speaks volumns for the talent that enters Cameron..

You can bet that the girls in baby bleu would have Jordan in their top 5 after just two yrs there,,

[_TheFakeJWill_]

After tonight's first half performance id put Kyrie over Hurley and J Will

[lotusland]

I don't think there's disagreement.. Since 1969 when they started the Naismith Award for National Player of the year,, Duke leads the nation with 7.. If you have 7 National Players of the year,, nameing a top 5 is sorta hard,, and when you consider the great talent at DUKE before 1969,, Dick Groat, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga,, we're spliting hairs as to who are the best 5.. Many of you never say the 4 listed above,, I only saw Groat play for the Pittsburg Pirate,, not at DUKE,, but I did see the other.. they were GOOD,, and no one was tougher than Art Heyman,, the man took no quarters.

One National Player of the year who isn't mentioned often , because he left early, is Elton Brand..
Thank about,, a national player of the year,, AT DUKE, and he's really not even in the conversation because his time at DUKE wasn't 4 yrs.. That speaks volumns for the talent that enters Cameron..

You can bet that the girls in baby bleu would have Jordan in their top 5 after just two yrs there,,

Jordan played 3 years at the UNC.