Gerald Henderson's Wrist

[Stray Gator]

Absolutely agree. I guess I'm kinda relieved to know that I wasn't just imagining things when I said the team looked tired in the ACC tournament. That's been such a powder keg over the last several years that I'm really hesitant any more to even bring it up. But it did look to me like the team as a whole, and Singler in particular, were running low on energy. What I can't understand is why it's happening this year. During the majority of the JJ years, and last year, I could easily understand why we were worn out at the end of the season - we had to run our top 6 or 7 into the ground just to try and eak out victories, especially in the ACC. But this year I did feel Coach did a decent job of using the bench. My only complaint in that area was that I thought he did have a long stretch where it seemed like he didn't use the bench quite enough during the second half of games. It wasn't a big deal at all, but it would have been nice to see King get a few minutes during the second half of games, but it just wasn't to be on many nights. But other than that, I thought we had done a decent job in limiting minutes. The only thing I can imagine is that we have more nagging injuries that most know about, and that the practices are just so intense that it drains us. That may be as much mental as physical, but it's the only thing I can think of. ...Gary

Would you allow for the possibility that the underlying premise of your complaints about K's failure to develop depth during the season was erroneous? Perhaps this season demonstates that those people who disagreed with you by maintaining that the difference between playing the starters 35-38 minutes per game instead of only 27-30 minutes was not a material contributing factor to the apparent end-of-season decline in performance. Players can get "fatigued" for reasons that have little to do with expending physical energy, and late-season losses can be attributed in some measure to other factors--including the ability of opponents to prepare better for what they've seen of Duke's offensive and defensive tendencies throughout the season.

I think this season confirms what many long-time Duke fans here have been saying--that K is perfectly willing to employ a deeper rotation when he has the players who are capable. Maybe it also dispels the notion that Duke has been getting more "worn out" towards the end of the season solely or even mainly because K has used a shorter rotation in recent years. I know that K and JJ were quoted a few years ago as saying the team was tired at the end of the season; but I don't recall them attributing that exhaustion entirely to the extra minutes that the starters played.

[CMS2478]

Absolutely agree. I guess I'm kinda relieved to know that I wasn't just imagining things when I said the team looked tired in the ACC tournament. That's been such a powder keg over the last several years that I'm really hesitant any more to even bring it up. But it did look to me like the team as a whole, and Singler in particular, were running low on energy. What I can't understand is why it's happening this year. During the majority of the JJ years, and last year, I could easily understand why we were worn out at the end of the season - we had to run our top 6 or 7 into the ground just to try and eak out victories, especially in the ACC. But this year I did feel Coach did a decent job of using the bench. My only complaint in that area was that I thought he did have a long stretch where it seemed like he didn't use the bench quite enough during the second half of games. It wasn't a big deal at all, but it would have been nice to see King get a few minutes during the second half of games, but it just wasn't to be on many nights. But other than that, I thought we had done a decent job in limiting minutes. The only thing I can imagine is that we have more nagging injuries that most know about, and that the practices are just so intense that it drains us. That may be as much mental as physical, but it's the only thing I can think of.

Bottom line: I hope we get sufficient rest and are ready to go on Thursday. We are going to need the guys at full strength to make a legit run at the Final Four.


Gary

I agree with you about the practices being intense. I can't speak for the players because I am not there in practice, but I would guess that since we have 10 really good players all battling for playing-time and pushing each other, the practices are VERY INTENSE!!! Over the course of 4-5 months that would wear down anybody and then throw in the competitive play of the ACC games.

[CMS2478]

Would you allow for the possibility that the underlying premise of your complaints about K's failure to develop depth during the season was erroneous? Perhaps this season demonstates that those people who disagreed with you by maintaining that the difference between playing the starters 35-38 minutes per game instead of only 27-30 minutes was not a material contributing factor to the apparent end-of-season decline in performance. Players can get "fatigued" for reasons that have little to do with expending physical energy, and late-season losses can be attributed in some measure to other factors--including the ability of opponents to prepare better for what they've seen of Duke's offensive and defensive tendencies throughout the season.

I think this season confirms what many long-time Duke fans here have been saying--that K is perfectly willing to employ a deeper rotation when he has the players who are capable. Maybe it also dispels the notion that Duke has been getting more "worn out" towards the end of the season solely or even mainly because K has used a shorter rotation in recent years. I know that K and JJ were quoted a few years ago as saying the team was tired at the end of the season; but I don't recall them attributing that exhaustion entirely to the extra minutes that the starters played.

Personally, I think the fatigue has to do with intense style of play Duke uses. They play intense defense and give 100% everyday in games and practice. That is bound to wear anybody down. Now I'm not saying I don't like this style, I love it. We just need to get all the rest we can before heading into the tournament so we're playing on fresh legs.

[Stray Gator]

Personally, I think the fatigue has to do with intense style of play Duke uses. They play intense defense and give 100% everyday in games and practice. That is bound to wear anybody down. Now I'm not saying I don't like this style, I love it. We just need to get all the rest we can before heading into the tournament so we're playing on fresh legs.

I agree that the consistent level of intensity that K demands is a big factor, as well as the pressure of wearing a Duke jersey, which most opponents see as a target deserving their best effort, the pressure of having every game televised and then having their performance scrutinized by media commentators and on Internet message boards, and the added demands of a rigorous academic curriculum. The fact that our players cope with such pressures and demands so well and so gracefully is a big part of what makes us so proud of them. IMO, we should also keep those factors in mind and try to be understanding of what extraordinary challenges confront them whenever we are inclined to criticize.

[Devilsfan]

I've got a funny feeling after watching G on the bench that he may not be available this week, if at all this tourney. i hope I'm wrong. Also it takes a lot to wear 20 year olds out, but all our shots were short on Saturday. Coach K must be as great a leader as advertised (I think so) because his troups are willing to die for him (and nearly are).

[CMS2478]

I agree that the consistent level of intensity that K demands is a big factor, as well as the pressure of wearing a Duke jersey, which most opponents see as a target deserving their best effort, the pressure of having every game televised and then having their performance scrutinized by media commentators and on Internet message boards, and the added demands of a rigorous academic curriculum. The fact that our players cope with such pressures and demands so well and so gracefully is a big part of what makes us so proud of them. IMO, we should also keep those factors in mind and try to be understanding of what extraordinary challenges confront them whenever we are inclined to criticize.

Agreed....and I hope my comments didn't come across critical because that was not my intent at all. It was to simply say I hope we rest up this week before our tournament run. I trust Coach K knows what's best for his team.

[greybeard]

The loss of the two bigs from the Junior class hurt this team badly. Singler was overworked. Well said SG, very well said.

[Saratoga2]

I believe David Thompson was 45.

I heard he had the highest vertical ever at 48 so 50 for Gerald seems out of line. Very few guys jump over 40 but Gerald may be in that group. My guess is between 40 and 44 inches.

[Saratoga2]

Back to the original question in this thread - does anybody know what was up with the wrist? He definitely had tape on it, and it appeared a few times as if he was rubbing/holding his wrist. Not trying to take too big of a leap (sorry, also trying to follow the other theme), but I figure someone on here knows something.

Said he injured the wrist again but xrays showed no breaks, just soreness. They did say the results were preliminary and they were going to have a second look.

[_Gary]

Would you allow for the possibility that the underlying premise of your complaints about K's failure to develop depth during the season was erroneous? Perhaps this season demonstates that those people who disagreed with you by maintaining that the difference between playing the starters 35-38 minutes per game instead of only 27-30 minutes was not a material contributing factor to the apparent end-of-season decline in performance. Players can get "fatigued" for reasons that have little to do with expending physical energy, and late-season losses can be attributed in some measure to other factors--including the ability of opponents to prepare better for what they've seen of Duke's offensive and defensive tendencies throughout the season.

I think this season confirms what many long-time Duke fans here have been saying--that K is perfectly willing to employ a deeper rotation when he has the players who are capable. Maybe it also dispels the notion that Duke has been getting more "worn out" towards the end of the season solely or even mainly because K has used a shorter rotation in recent years. I know that K and JJ were quoted a few years ago as saying the team was tired at the end of the season; but I don't recall them attributing that exhaustion entirely to the extra minutes that the starters played.

Actually, other than my few remarks here at the end of the season, I've said virtually nothing about lack of depth this season. So I believe you are talking more about past seasons when it comes to me personally.

I don't think the answer is as simple as either/or. First off, Coach K seems to have been concerned with too many minutes because he's made the comments himself about trying to limit practices and such. So there's something to that. And during the JJ years, as you mentioned, both Coach K and JJ mentioned being worn down near the end of multiple seasons. On top of that, more than once there were comments at the beginning of a season about looking forward to more depth. So I think it would be a mistake to completely dismiss the bench/depth issue out of hand. And for what it's worth, I never thought it was a big issue for Duke until the JJ years. It may have been mentioned by me, rarely, before the JJ years. But I never saw a "trend" or anything like that.

Having said that, of course there's more to it than just depth. I think we've all hit on it with the discussion of intensity and style of play, as well as the mental stress that comes from playing every game on TV and being the most hated team in the nation, bar none. All of that has to contribute. And I believe Coach K is doing his best to adjust, year by year, to those issues.

But I do think there is a difference between playing 28 minutes a night versus 38, especially with the style of play we employ. Our defense is non-stop and every extra minute out on the court means that much more energy being exerted. So while minutes played/depth is clearly not the only issue, I'm not comfortable saying it's never an issue. But to be honest, I'd rather not beat this horse any more.


Gary

[gep]

Said he injured the wrist again but xrays showed no breaks, just soreness. They did say the results were preliminary and they were going to have a second look.

I"ve been wanting to mention this... In Coach K's post-game interview, he said (without benefit of test results) that Gerald was more scared than hurt. This kinda reminded me of when he first hurt his wrist, his next few games were not good. But, it seemed that as soon as all tests were done and he apparently knew is situation, he started playing like the player of old again... without worry. Hopefully, with the current test results that he is injury is not "trouble", he can play as his normal self through the NCAA.

[BD80]

I heard he had the highest vertical ever at 48 so 50 for Gerald seems out of line. Very few guys jump over 40 but Gerald may be in that group. My guess is between 40 and 44 inches.

DY's 45 was a standing jump. Are the current measures with a stride or perhaps a running start? That could explain the difference.

[blueprofessor]

DY's 45 was a standing jump. Are the current measures with a stride or perhaps a running start? That could explain the difference.

************************************************** *********
...of a backboard taking only ONE step before he jumped (witnessed by 3 fellow players,including a future Kansas AD and also a 76er trainer ).

One link to the 50" :

http://www.nbdlalbuquerque.com/warri...amberlain.html
The vertical has been reported by several sources.This one is by the NBA beat reporter for USA Today.It appears on the Golden State Warriors Official Website.

Best regards.

[Indoor66]

************************************************** *********
...of a backboard taking only ONE step before he jumped (witnessed by 3 fellow players,including a future Kansas AD and also a 76er trainer ).

One link to the 50" :

http://www.nbdlalbuquerque.com/warri...amberlain.html
The vertical has been reported by several sources.This one is by the NBA beat reporter for USA Today.It appears on the Golden State Warriors Official Website.

Best regards.

That link leads to a page that has been removed. Any additional link or info?

[Indoor66]

I Googled Wilt Chamberlain + 50" vertical and found a number of sites. These two were the best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OugQ16KaR50
http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html

From the history site Q & A session with Wilt:


"Q: How did that feel to know that you were basically unstoppable? A: That is something that I really loved. I loved the fact that no one could really block my shot. I jumped so high that there was nothing that they could do. When you have no fear, it's just going to make you much better at what you're doing. My ability to jump so high gave me such an advantage. People say "OK, he's 7-foot tall, he should be able to do whatever he wants," but I'm also getting 50 inches off the ground on a vertical! (laughs) This puts me so far above people. So, while they were reaching for the ball this way, I was going on top of them and just taking it out of their hands. It gave me a sense of superiority. What hurt me was that I wanted to be a consummate basketball player, and I wanted to be able to shoot the ball instead of just taking it to the basket and dunk it like I should have. I was shooting fadeaway shots, hook shots, finger-rolls... whatever came to my mind that I thought would be pleasing. A lot of times that was a negative more than a positive. If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 70 or 80 points a game."

[blueprofessor]

I Googled Wilt Chamberlain + 50" vertical and found a number of sites. These two were the best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OugQ16KaR50
http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html

From the history site Q & A session with Wilt:


"Q: How did that feel to know that you were basically unstoppable? A: That is something that I really loved. I loved the fact that no one could really Rblock my shot. I jumped so high that there was nothing that they could do. When you have no fear, it's just going to make you much better at what you're doing. My ability to jump so high gave me such an advantage. People say "OK, he's 7-foot tall, he should be able to do whatever he wants," but I'm also getting 50 inches off the ground on a vertical! (laughs) This puts me so far above people. So, while they were reaching for the ball this way, I was going on top of them and just taking it out of their hands. It gave me a sense of superiority. What hurt me was that I wanted to be a consummate basketball player, and I wanted to be able to shoot the ball instead of just taking it to the basket and dunk it like I should have. I was shooting fadeaway shots, hook shots, finger-rolls... whatever came to my mind that I thought would be pleasing. A lot of times that was a negative more than a positive. If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 70 or 80 points a game."

************************************************** ***
for the one step and touch the top of the backboard: page 47 of "Wilt", by Robert Cherry,foreword by Jerry West,called by the late Dick Schapp "the definitive biography..."

Re Wilt's 50" vertical:Other source,besides the Golden State site and story by the NBA beat writer that was still up a month ago---good article,sorry it is down--maybe in archives) and your sources,Indoor :
Oxford U's "American National Biography", in the Chamberlain section page 106.

Apparently, Wilt,according to the Cherry bio,high jumped 6'9",as well.

The videos you provided reminded me of the photo of Wilt I mentioned earlier on DBR that appeared in the early '60s of Wilt's dunking a ball off a Guy Rodgers pass on a fast break.I have never seen anyone with a bball so high above the rim!

I always got the impression that Wilt jumped as high as he needed---if he had wanted 55" or more,given that he could put his hand on top of the backboard with a 1 step start, he could ,and probably did, do it on a running start!

Best regards.

[CDu]

I Googled Wilt Chamberlain + 50" vertical and found a number of sites. These two were the best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OugQ16KaR50
http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html

From the history site Q & A session with Wilt:


"Q: How did that feel to know that you were basically unstoppable? A: That is something that I really loved. I loved the fact that no one could really block my shot. I jumped so high that there was nothing that they could do. When you have no fear, it's just going to make you much better at what you're doing. My ability to jump so high gave me such an advantage. People say "OK, he's 7-foot tall, he should be able to do whatever he wants," but I'm also getting 50 inches off the ground on a vertical! (laughs) This puts me so far above people. So, while they were reaching for the ball this way, I was going on top of them and just taking it out of their hands. It gave me a sense of superiority. What hurt me was that I wanted to be a consummate basketball player, and I wanted to be able to shoot the ball instead of just taking it to the basket and dunk it like I should have. I was shooting fadeaway shots, hook shots, finger-rolls... whatever came to my mind that I thought would be pleasing. A lot of times that was a negative more than a positive. If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 70 or 80 points a game."

A personal statement of a 50-inch vertical doesn't sound like valid scientific evidence. If Wilt could jump 50 inches, his head would be more than a foot above the rim. I'll be honest - that's just unrealistic. Not saying he's not a freakish athlete, but having his head more than a foot above the rim? And that's not to mention the absurdity of the idea that he could jump nearly that high from a standstill.

That's not meant to be a slap at Wilt. I think these "estimated" verticals are either miscalculated or just made up for a lot of players.

[blueprofessor]

A personal statement of a 50-inch vertical doesn't sound like valid scientific evidence. If Wilt could jump 50 inches, his head would be more than a foot above the rim. I'll be honest - that's just unrealistic. Not saying he's not a freakish athlete, but having his head more than a foot above the rim? And that's not to mention the absurdity of the idea that he could jump nearly that high from a standstill.

That's not meant to be a slap at Wilt. I think these "estimated" verticals are either miscalculated or just made up for a lot of players.

************************************************** ********
...1. could touch the top of the backboard with a 1-step start(there are witnesses to that in the cited bio,above);2.could high jump 6'9"? David Thompson needed a running start to touch the top of the backboard and,as fine a triple-jumper as he was, could not high jump 6'9".Could a man who did not need a running start to touch the top of the backboard jump 6" higher with a running start than Thompson's 44" max?
The beat writer for the Golden State Warriors and other sources (see Oxford's American biography mentioned above) attested to the 50".I don't think there is much doubt that Wilt could do 50" or higher--with no disrespect to your always facile mind and posts,CDu.

Others, much shorter and not as strong and perhaps lacking Wilt's 4.4 40 yard explosiveness, have had 44" verticals.Wilt was one of the very greatest,strongest, and most explosive running and jumping machines of the 20th c.He was the greatest rebounder in basketball history.

Personal memories,if you will permit:

I saw a photo in Sport magazine circa 1963(mentioned in an earlier post) that looked like Wilt's head was very high above the rim (that is why I taped that photo to my wall at school).He had been sprinting on the fast break and dunked on a Guy Rodgers pass.

In the game Wilt scored 100 vs. the Knicks (March 2,1962,Hershey,PA), I recall reading an account ,as the Knicks kept fouling to prevent Wilt from scoring baskets, of Wilt dunking the ball with 2 Knicks players holding on to him.That is a ton,no pun intended, of thrust!



Best regards.

[yancem]

************************************************** ********
...1. could touch the top of the backboard with a 1-step start(there are witnesses to that in the cited bio,above);2.could high jump 6'9"? David Thompson needed a running start to touch the top of the backboard and,as fine a triple-jumper as he was, could not high jump 6'9".Could a man who did not need a running start to touch the top of the backboard jump 6" higher with a running start than Thompson's 44" max?
The beat writer for the Golden State Warriors and other sources (see Oxford's American biography mentioned above) attested to the 50".I don't think there is much doubt that Wilt could do 50" or higher--with no disrespect to your always facile mind and posts,CDu.

Others, much shorter and not as strong and perhaps lacking Wilt's 4.4 40 yard explosiveness, have had 44" verticals.Wilt was one of the very greatest,strongest, and most explosive running and jumping machines of the 20th c.He was the greatest rebounder in basketball history.

Personal memories,if you will permit:

I saw a photo in Sport magazine circa 1963(mentioned in an earlier post) that looked like Wilt's head was very high above the rim (that is why I taped that photo to my wall at school).He had been sprinting on the fast break and dunked on a Guy Rodgers pass.

In the game Wilt scored 100 vs. the Knicks (March 2,1962,Hershey,PA), I recall reading an account ,as the Knicks kept fouling to prevent Wilt from scoring baskets, of Wilt dunking the ball with 2 Knicks players holding on to him.That is a ton,no pun intended, of thrust!



Best regards.

Your argument makes no sense. It completely ignores the fact that Wilt was 9" taller than Thompson and that doesn't factor in Wilts longer arms and therefore higher reach. If Thompson needed a 44" vertical to reach the top of the backboard at 6'4", Wilt would need at least 9" few inches to accomplish the same thing. Don't get me wrong, Wilt was an amazing athlete and I have know idea what his actual vertical leap was, but I highly doubt that it a guy who was 7'1" would need a 50" vertical leap to reach the top of the backboard.

[BCGroup]

I"ve been wanting to mention this... In Coach K's post-game interview, he said (without benefit of test results) that Gerald was more scared than hurt. This kinda reminded me of when he first hurt his wrist, his next few games were not good. But, it seemed that as soon as all tests were done and he apparently knew is situation, he started playing like the player of old again... without worry. Hopefully, with the current test results that he is injury is not "trouble", he can play as his normal self through the NCAA.

That sounds more than reasonable. I know after I injured my ankle, I was much more careful anytime I even tweaked it. I'm looking forward to a fresh start and a new city, and that all our players look rested and confident!