Big Man Perception

[uh_no]

I find this topic to be very interesting, and I don't think it to be an easy open and shut case. Nor does it boil down to a blanket statement like "Wojo is a great/terrible big man coach."

Here are a few of my observations:
1. Let's put it to bed - you don't need to be a big man to coach big men. It doesn't matter that Wojo was a guard.
2. Because he was the only coach they over had, Wojo gets full credit for the development of Zoubek and LT who became defensive and rebounding beasts AND learned not to foul.
3. Given observation #2, neither Zoubek nor LT developed a reliable post game, mostly scoring on put-backs. Never truly could create their own shot, especially against physical big post players.
3. The quotes a few entries up between Brian's dad and Wojo doesn't really add much because they've only ever had Wojo. Perhaps with the average big man coach out there, the could have been a lot better or a lot worse. No one knows - we only know Wojo helped them become essential pieces to a national championship.
4. Prior to this year, Mason, Miles, and Ryan showed great rebounding, good interior defense, but no real dependable post offense - similar to Zoubek and LT before them.
5. This year, Mason and Ryan (Miles a little bit) have displayed greatly improved post offense. Mason with his hook shot, ability to create and seal post position, and be a reliable creator of offense in the post. Ryan with his almost Kevin McHale-like post moves in his arsenal to go along with his inside/outside abilities.
6. This year also marks Coach Capel's arrival to the Duke staff.

I think these are the conclusions we can draw:
Wojo can certainly coach defense and rebounding out of the bigs - no small feat given how important those skills are to team success, especially when we see so many teams that are lacking in those areas. However, up until this year, none of our post players showed the ability to consistently score the ball in the post. Seems like the big question is: Are Mason's and Ryan's improvements due to the 3-year cumulative effects of Wojo's coaching, or is the main reason they finally took a huge leap forward this year because of Coach Capel coming on board?

These are all fair points, but you ignore one HUGE factor:

we are making a much more concerted effort to get the ball to them. Last year it was all about kyle and nolan...the offense revolved around getting them the shot...whether it was a three, a drive, whatever...

This year our most experienced guys are bigs. If K is consistent in anything, its that he trusts experience over talent (to a point). You could see a tale of two games last night (or whenever we played KU) before the 12 minute timeout in the first half and after it. When we don't go inside, we pass around the perimeter and end up with a 3pt shot (good or bad). When we began to go inside, we saw a) scoring output from mason and kelly, b) a better balance of shots. Since big guys aren't being used a giant moving walls for setting screens this year (not that there's anything wrong with that), they can be in a better position to score points.

Anyway, yeah mason and ryan have gotten better, but not so much better than you'd expect between a sophomore and junior year. And the changes in the offense can largely account for the rest of the improvement.

So in conclusion, there's no doubt that capel is a valuable addition to the coaching staff, but that doesn't prove that wojo is inadequate (in the same way that boeheim being the assistant to team USA doesn't mean that K is inadequate). It simply is another pair of eyes that can watch and give advice.

[CDu]

I'm not sure why Capel is getting credit for the improvement of the bigs:

1. What evidence do we have that Capel is the one coaching the bigs?
2. What evidence do we have that Capel is a great big man's coach?

It seems like people are giving Capel credit for Blake Griffin's awesomeness and assuming this mean's he's the reason for our bigs having more production. But Capel wasn't the big man coach at Oklahoma (he was the head coach) and I'd argue that Griffin was an awesome big man regardless of coaching anyway.

It's possible that Capel is the reason. I'd say it's more likely that Mason and Kelly are showing improvement in part because they're a year more experienced and in larger part because they're getting more opportunities on a team with less proven go-to guys (as freshmen they were behind three All-ACC scorers and as sophomores they were behind two of those same guy).

[OldPhiKap]

1. Steve has been on the staff since 1999 and was promoted to associate coach in 2008. We've won a few games in that time, and had a number of excellent big men over that period of time. Steve is obviously filling the role that Coach K wants him to undertake. He would not be there if he did not do the job at the exacting levels required by K. So I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, frankly. He has been working with Ryan and the Plumli since they stepped foot on campus and I am sure he has been an integral part of their development.

2. Jeff III joining the staff gives K something I am not sure he has had before -- a former player whose coaching development was primarily guided by someone else (Jeff II). So Jeff understands how K and Duke works; understands the rivalry in a way most of us don't (through his Tar Heel brother Jason); and has coached his own team after developing in his father's tutelage. I am not sure exactly what Jeff's role is -- I am sure scouting and strategic planning are natural resources to tap -- but I am unaware of anything that would make him a position-specific guru.

[Des Esseintes]

I think these are the conclusions we can draw:
Wojo can certainly coach defense and rebounding out of the bigs - no small feat given how important those skills are to team success, especially when we see so many teams that are lacking in those areas. However, up until this year, none of our post players showed the ability to consistently score the ball in the post. Seems like the big question is: Are Mason's and Ryan's improvements due to the 3-year cumulative effects of Wojo's coaching, or is the main reason they finally took a huge leap forward this year because of Coach Capel coming on board?

Yeah, maybe it's Capel talking to them for the past couple months. Or maybe teenagers get better at stuff as they mature.

Ryan Kelly
2009-10
Minutes per game: 6.5
3pt %: 26.3
Rebounds/game: 1.1
Points/game: 1.2

2010-11
Minutes per game: 20.1
3pt%: 31.9
Rebounds/game: 3.7
Points/game: 6.6

2011-12
Minutes per game: 28.6
3pt%: 40.7
Rebounds/game: 4.6
Points/game: 14.6

Mason Plumlee
2009-10
Minutes per game: 14.1
FG%: 46.2
Rebounds/game: 3.1
Points/game: 3.7

2010-11
Minutes per game: 25.6
FG%: 59.3
Rebounds/game: 8.4
Points/game: 7.2

2011-12
Minutes per game: 30.7
FG%: 63.3
Rebounds/game: 10.0
Points/game: 11.4

Mason scored four more points as a sophomore than he did as a freshman and is scoring four more points this year than last. Ryan's growth is similar. Sure looks to me like both guys got better at everything every year. But by all means, let's continue to make up transformational narratives.

[Wander]

1. Let's put it to bed - you don't need to be a big man to coach big men. It doesn't matter that Wojo was a guard.

Your second sentence doesn't follow from your first. For example:

You don't need to shoot free throws well to be a good center. It doesn't matter that Mason is a bad free throw shooter.
You don't need to have the best quarterback to make it to the Super Bowl. It doesn't matter that Green Bay has Aaron Rodgers.
And so on.

Not to root you out in particular (and you clearly recognize the issue is more complex than many people do), because I see a ton of people do this. The existence of successful and short big man coaches doesn't imply that it's not desirable to have a former post player as your big man coach. I'd argue that over the past decade or so, Duke has had significantly more success with guards than with post players, and a lot of the success with our taller guys involve skills you normally associate with guards. I don't see how it's unreasonable to conjecture that the makeup of our assistant coaches has something to do with that, though I admit I'm not sure how that hypothesis is falsifiable without being close to the program.

(This isn't a complaint about the state of the program, by the way - I don't see a problem with us being better at recruiting, coaching, or developing some positions relative to others).

[Kedsy]

The existence of successful and short big man coaches doesn't imply that it's not desirable to have a former post player as your big man coach.

Well, it certainly does not imply that it would be desirable to have a former post player as your big man coach. In baseball, some of the best hitting coaches were not great hitters when they played. And some of the best hitters (e.g., Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams) were lousy hitting coaches. Leo Mazzone, considered one of the best pitching coaches of all time, never pitched in the major leagues (although admittedly he was a minor league pitcher). The ability to teach and the ability to perform are not necessarily related.

Being a guard doesn't mean you don't understand footwork or how to use your body to seal someone off. In some ways, a point guard has an advantage teaching big men because he may have a better understanding of where the guard wants to put the ball and how the big man needs to position himself to receive it (although obviously a big man could have a feel for that, as well).

Obviously one way of gaining the knowledge of how a big man should play is by doing it yourself. But clearly it's not the only way. I'm sure there are civil engineering professors out there who have never personally built a bridge. And I'm sure there are wonderful bridge builders out there who couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag.

Ultimately, the fact that there are successful short big man coaches does prove something: that short big man coaches can succeed. Whether they will succeed depends on whether the short big man coach has a good knowledge of the game and is a good teacher. Going further, I would argue that the ability of any coach is primarily a combination of knowledge, teaching ability, and ability to motivate. Assuming a coach has those things, I can't imagine height or having played a particular position having all that much bearing on the matter.

[JMarley50]

I'm not sure why Capel is getting credit for the improvement of the bigs:

1. What evidence do we have that Capel is the one coaching the bigs?
2. What evidence do we have that Capel is a great big man's coach?

It seems like people are giving Capel credit for Blake Griffin's awesomeness and assuming this mean's he's the reason for our bigs having more production. But Capel wasn't the big man coach at Oklahoma (he was the head coach) and I'd argue that Griffin was an awesome big man regardless of coaching anyway.

It's possible that Capel is the reason. I'd say it's more likely that Mason and Kelly are showing improvement in part because they're a year more experienced and in larger part because they're getting more opportunities on a team with less proven go-to guys (as freshmen they were behind three All-ACC scorers and as sophomores they were behind two of those same guy).

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss the impact that Capel has had. I get that Duke fans in general have had to spend a lot of time sticking up for Wojo when it comes to his ability to coach big men. That's one of the go to insults for every Duke hater out there... Could it be that when people try to give Capel some of the credit, people feel that same urge to defend Wojo? To give Capel credit would prove Wojo inadequate somehow?

Like I mentioned earlier, there have been numerous times this season where I have saw Capel pull a big man aside going into a timeout and coach him on something. If I had all of the games saved I would go back and count. I don't remember which game but in Maui he was showing Miles a move to make during one timeout, Miles soon after had a really nice post move and scored, then during the next timeout Capel was grinning from ear to ear ran over gave him a big pat on the back and said (based on lip-reading) "see what did I tell you". I even replayed it to show my wife because I thought it was pretty cool to see the coach instruct, player do then get rewarded. I don't think anyone has said that Wojo is no longer the big men coach, just that Capel is now contributing.

I also don't think you can downplay the impact of Blake Griffin on Coach Capel. Either A: Capel coached Blake Griffin into the player that he is or B: Like most good coaches he learned a lot from interacting with an amazing player on a day to day basis. Either way I would say Coach Capel came away a better coach and learned things that can improve Duke's bigs.

With all that said, I personally still believe that most of the credit should go to the players themselves. As they say "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"!

[Kedsy]

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss the impact that Capel has had.

It's not that people are quick to dismiss it so much as wanting to see some evidence before jumping to a conclusion. You apparently saw a piece of evidence, but in my opinion it's anecdotal and incomplete. Certainly not sufficient to give credit to Coach Capel any more than we would give credit to Coach Collins, who I'm sure at least a few times has had similar experiences with big players in the past.

To hear someone say that our big men have improved due to Coach Capel, essentially because he recruited Blake Griffin a few years ago, sounds like (a) a major stretch; and (b) a dig at Coach Wojo. I'm not saying that was your intent, but that's what it sounds like.

[duke09hms]

Seems like the big question is: Are Mason's and Ryan's improvements due to the 3-year cumulative effects of Wojo's coaching, or is the main reason they finally took a huge leap forward this year because of Coach Capel coming on board?

Seems like the answer is yes.

[Jderf]

What I don't understand is the urge to reduce the improvement down to one single reason. Was it Wojo? Capel? A natural talent progression? Maturity? More playing time? A more post-centric offense? Well, the reason Mason and Ryan have improved can only be one of these things, right? Right?

I think it's much more reasonable that a confluence of all these factors have contributed to our improved post play. Wojo certainly deserves some credit. As does Capel. But, to be honest, most of the credit probably belongs with Mason and Ryan, who have have put in the time and effort to get to where they are.

[Scorp4me]

Most feel Wojo is an ineffective big man coach because he was a short guard. So apparently Capel's added 5 inches makes him a more effective big man coach because he was a tall guard?

The post above noting how Capel was instructing Miles would be a great reason to support his influence on the big men. However, it unfortunately seems most would rather attribute it to his added height. Strange.

[Troublemaker]

1. Steve has been on the staff since 1999 and was promoted to associate coach in 2008. We've won a few games in that time, and had a number of excellent big men over that period of time. Steve is obviously filling the role that Coach K wants him to undertake. He would not be there if he did not do the job at the exacting levels required by K. So I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, frankly. He has been working with Ryan and the Plumli since they stepped foot on campus and I am sure he has been an integral part of their development.

Exactly.

If, at one point in time, Wojo was inexperienced with his role as big man coach, that's certainly not the case anymore. After a decade of coaching big men, helping out at Pete Newell's camp, running drills with NBA superstar big men through Duke's involvement with USA Basketball, and most importantly, 10 years to refine his teaching skills under one of America's great teachers in Mike Krzyzewski, Coach Wojo is almost certainly one of the best big man coaches in the country.

You give a smart, motivated, successful person like Wojo 10 years to do anything, even if that something is completely new to him at the start, and he will become one of the best. Coach K and Coach Wojo and Coach Collins and the rest of Duke's staff are guys who would be successful at anything they choose to do. Thank God we have them coaching Duke Basketball.

Coach K has said many, many times now that he believes he has the best staff of coaches in basketball, pro or college. We should start respecting his judgement on this matter.

[Wander]

I'm sure there are civil engineering professors out there who have never personally built a bridge.

But it's desirable to have a professor who has a background in civil engineering, rather than electrical engineering, train a graduate student in civil engineering.

As for the rest of your post, I've rarely, if ever, seen anyone argue that being a former post player, even a very good former post player, is sufficient to being a good big man coach. I certainly haven't. So I'm not sure why you're bothering to argue against that viewpoint.

I agree the Capel thing is silly. I don't remember Capel playing center, and we don't have anywhere near a meaningful sample size or information to make any judgments about that anyway (well, maybe some others have inside info about what Capel does day-to-day in practice, but I don't).

[SilkyJ]

What is Jeff Capel's role? I'm not being snarky, this is a legitimate question that I'm hoping someone on the board can answer.

I'd love to know the answer to this as well. For some reason I thought I read the answer earlier in the year and I thought he was spending most of his time with Collins and the guards, but I could be misremembering.

My 2 cents is that specifically for Mason his development of an actual go to move makes all the difference. And we know this is something Wojo worked on with he and Miles. The last 2 years if he caught the ball he looked like he didn't know what to do with it. Actually having a go-to move in that hook shot makes a world of difference for him b/c he can demand the ball and actually do something with it. Now if Miles could get that going...

[jv001]

Well, it certainly does not imply that it would be desirable to have a former post player as your big man coach. In baseball, some of the best hitting coaches were not great hitters when they played. And some of the best hitters (e.g., Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams) were lousy hitting coaches. Leo Mazzone, considered one of the best pitching coaches of all time, never pitched in the major leagues (although admittedly he was a minor league pitcher). The ability to teach and the ability to perform are not necessarily related.

Being a guard doesn't mean you don't understand footwork or how to use your body to seal someone off. In some ways, a point guard has an advantage teaching big men because he may have a better understanding of where the guard wants to put the ball and how the big man needs to position himself to receive it (although obviously a big man could have a feel for that, as well).

Obviously one way of gaining the knowledge of how a big man should play is by doing it yourself. But clearly it's not the only way. I'm sure there are civil engineering professors out there who have never personally built a bridge. And I'm sure there are wonderful bridge builders out there who couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag.

Ultimately, the fact that there are successful short big man coaches does prove something: that short big man coaches can succeed. Whether they will succeed depends on whether the short big man coach has a good knowledge of the game and is a good teacher. Going further, I would argue that the ability of any coach is primarily a combination of knowledge, teaching ability, and ability to motivate. Assuming a coach has those things, I can't imagine height or having played a particular position having all that much bearing on the matter.

And Dave Duncan pitching coach for the St. Louis Cardinals and World Series Champions was not a pitcher in the major leagues. He was a catcher. As for big man coaches, Dave Odom was not a bad big man coach for Wake's Duncan one of the ACCs best centers ever. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

And Dave Duncan pitching coach for the St. Louis Cardinals and World Series Champions was not a pitcher in the major leagues. He was a catcher.

Thanks, much better than my example. Duncan (considered one of the best pitching coaches around), as a catcher coaching pitchers, is analogous to a point guard coaching big men.

[JMarley50]

It's not that people are quick to dismiss it so much as wanting to see some evidence before jumping to a conclusion. You apparently saw a piece of evidence, but in my opinion it's anecdotal and incomplete. Certainly not sufficient to give credit to Coach Capel any more than we would give credit to Coach Collins, who I'm sure at least a few times has had similar experiences with big players in the past.

To hear someone say that our big men have improved due to Coach Capel, essentially because he recruited Blake Griffin a few years ago, sounds like (a) a major stretch; and (b) a dig at Coach Wojo. I'm not saying that was your intent, but that's what it sounds like.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to dismiss Wojo at all. I've always been one of the people I was referring to when it came to defending him. At 6'8" I was a big guy myself. The best position coach I ever had was a guard. He taught me a lot of little things dealing with body position, and setting guys up to get position on them, that my previous coaches who were big guys failed to do. So no I don't think that you have to be a big to coach bigs or that Wojo is insufficient. But at the same time I would find it hard to believe that Capel has contributed nothing at all to their development.

To say that Coach Capel merely recruited Blake Griffin and didn't play a role in his development is just as naive as saying it takes a big guy to coach the big guys. I never said, nor have I seen anyone else say that just because Coach Capel coached Blake Griffin our big guys improved. I essentially said that I'm sure Coach Capel learned a few things through dealing with a great player like Blake on a day to day basis that could help our guys. If you really believe that Capel's interactions with Blake Griffin hasn't indirectly had a positive effect on our big guys then I'm also sure you believe that Jim Boeheim had nothing to do Duke's zone defense. Blake was on campus this summer for crying out loud... I know if I'm sitting in the locker room as a college post player and in walks one of the best bigs in the game, you have my full attention!! But that's all besides the point.

You proved my point exactly. I never dismissed anything Wojo has done. I never said he had nothing to do with our bigs improvements. In fact I don't think anyone in this discussion said that. Some were just directing a little credit Capel's way. Yet, you and others felt the need to jump in and defend Wojo by dismissing Coach Capel's abilities or downplaying any effect that he may have had on our guys. I think its habit, when someone brings up our bigs and coaching its an automatic defend wojo response!

Maybe next time I will just say I'm really glad that the whole team and coaching staff helped improve our bigs and turned them into one of the best front courts in the country. But I'm sure someone will still think I'm insulting Wojo.

[JMarley50]

What I don't understand is the urge to reduce the improvement down to one single reason. Was it Wojo? Capel? A natural talent progression? Maturity? More playing time? A more post-centric offense? Well, the reason Mason and Ryan have improved can only be one of these things, right? Right?

I think it's much more reasonable that a confluence of all these factors have contributed to our improved post play. Wojo certainly deserves some credit. As does Capel. But, to be honest, most of the credit probably belongs with Mason and Ryan, who have have put in the time and effort to get to where they are.

Well said...Perfect actually!!
But why do you think Capel deserves credit? Are saying Wojo can't coach becuase he's short??

[juise]

I agree with the confluence of factors theory. I re-watched the last 4 minutes of the Maui final this morning, looking for some of the details that I would have missed in the excitement of the live viewing. When Mason left the game in the last 10 seconds (replaced by Austin), he was enthusiastically greeted on the bench by several coaches, but Capel in particular had some words for him. I read Jason's lips saying "What did I tell you?" more than once. Whatever was said to Mason, I hope that the coaches have some similarly effective words for Tuesday's matchup with tSOU.

[JMarley50]

I agree with the confluence of factors theory. I re-watched the last 4 minutes of the Maui final this morning, looking for some of the details that I would have missed in the excitement of the live viewing. When Mason left the game in the last 10 seconds (replaced by Austin), he was enthusiastically greeted on the bench by several coaches, but Capel in particular had some words for him. I read Jason's lips saying "What did I tell you?" more than once. Whatever was said to Mason, I hope that the coaches have some similarly effective words for Tuesday's matchup with tSOU.

That's one the things I saw. I must have gotten my Plumli mixed up. I was thinking it was Miles for some reason. At the end of the day I don't really care who is repsponsible, I'm just really happy to see them playing like we always knew they could. I hope they keep it up all the way through the final four! I've enjoyed the debate today, it helped pass the day by at work. Now off to eat leftovers!