903!! MBB: Duke 74, Michigan State 69 Post Game Thread

[Kedsy]

I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

I hope you're right. Your reasoning makes sense, and it's certainly possible that both Alex and Quinn could force their way into the rotation.

But as I wrote earlier, due to the amount that Coach K likes to play his starters, if these guys break into the rotation, it may be at the expense of someone else (e.g., if Quinn earns 15 minutes a game that means Tyler might drop out of the rotation, which at the moment is difficult to envision). It would be great if Alex and/or Quinn could earn minutes while everyone else keeps theirs as well, but we'll just have to see if K is willing to embrace fewer minutes for his top four or five guys. Only time will tell.

[DukieTiger]

I hope you're right. Your reasoning makes sense, and it's certainly possible that both Alex and Quinn could force their way into the rotation.

But as I wrote earlier, due to the amount that Coach K likes to play his starters, if these guys break into the rotation, it may be at the expense of someone else (e.g., if Quinn earns 15 minutes a game that means Tyler might drop out of the rotation, which at the moment is difficult to envision). It would be great if Alex and/or Quinn could earn minutes while everyone else keeps theirs as well, but we'll just have to see if K is willing to embrace fewer minutes for his top four or five guys. Only time will tell.

I think it's more likely that guys 8, 9 and maybe 10 in the rotation get minutes here and there throughout the year at the expense of guys 6 and 7- rather than 1-5 in the rotation. That would stand up with what you are saying and with the very real possibility that different matchups will require different lineups throughout the year. Maybe Murph/Mike will get minutes at the expense of Miles in a game, or Quinn will get minutes at the expense of Tyler- in which case we would still only truly go 7 or 8 deep for that game, just that the 7 or 8 will change depending on the situation. I just think that for us to have a solid 7 that is more or less the same every game, the onus is upon those top 7 guys to develop and round out their games. Because right now, as I said before, there is plenty of room for Quinn Cook to come into a game because we need his ball handling; or for Mike/Alex to come into a game because we need their size on the wings (or their quickness at the 4 spot.) The top 7 aren't exactly locked into their roles like they might have been in other years.

[Kedsy]

... in which case we would still only truly go 7 or 8 deep for that game, just that the 7 or 8 will change depending on the situation.

I think it's very possible you are correct. It will be interesting to see if K mixes and matches that way.

[RonFar]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here. This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

[stillcrazie]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here. This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

Wow, that is an amazing amount of Plumlee negativity. Reminds me a bit of the Zoubek negativity pre-January 2010.

[gumbomoop]

It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands.

Although several posters have disagreed with slower's lumping Mason in with Miles on the hands issue, the essential point made here [slower's tag quote] is correct, IMO.

Some players have very good court sense, some average, some below average. Miles has shown a particular court-awareness-deficit after getting a defensive rebound. As slower notes, he doesn't seem to know, instinctively, where the opponents are, how many have run to get ready to play D, and who might be lurking to knock it out of his hands. His instincts - actually, lack thereof - prohibit him from valuing every possession. I absolutely agree with slower's advice to Miles - Mason, too - to assume a pesky defender is ready to strip the ball. But lacking the instinct, Miles would have to be taught, reminded repeatedly, to do this. I'd guess the coaching staff has tried to teach this, and has not entirely succeeded, to put it kindly.

Ditto for the bane of coaches [not to mention poster-coaches, like slower and you and me], watching bigs mis-use the rhythm dribble, putting the ball on the floor when they should keep it high and go up for a close-in shot. Just want to scream, every time. Bad, bad words.

Ditto for one of my pet peeves, the one-handed, missed, thunder-dunk, which Miles perhaps a bit more than Mason has "perfected." [I don't even like made one-handed thunder-dunks, as it only encourages them....] I have no idea how K and staff respond to this particular crappy trend, but any missed dunk costs the team 2 valuable points. It looks great when it goes down, but when - way too frequently - it misfires, I mutter unkind thoughts about Miles's decision-making. For me, valuing every possession certainly includes understanding that 2 certain points is preferable - always, no exceptions - to a highlight-reel highlight.

[slower]

Way to cut and paste one line from my post and proceed to blow it out of proportion. I wrote a single sentence saying that even Redick would have missed some of the contested 3's that Andre hit last night, then you extended the comparison to other aspects of Redick's game and accused me of forcing Redick/Dawkins comparisons. That junk might have worked on your HS debate team but it won't fly here, son.

Yo, g-money, keepin' it real!

You said that Dre hit some shots that JJ would have missed. I disagreed. I said that "some" people were fond of making Dre/JJ comparisons. Sorry that you took it personally.

I'm neither a debater nor a playa-hater. Son.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[slower]

Although several posters have disagreed with slower's lumping Mason in with Miles on the hands issue, the essential point made here [slower's tag quote] is correct, IMO.

Some players have very good court sense, some average, some below average. Miles has shown a particular court-awareness-deficit after getting a defensive rebound. As slower notes, he doesn't seem to know, instinctively, where the opponents are, how many have run to get ready to play D, and who might be lurking to knock it out of his hands. His instincts - actually, lack thereof - prohibit him from valuing every possession. I absolutely agree with slower's advice to Miles - Mason, too - to assume a pesky defender is ready to strip the ball. But lacking the instinct, Miles would have to be taught, reminded repeatedly, to do this. I'd guess the coaching staff has tried to teach this, and has not entirely succeeded, to put it kindly.

Ditto for the bane of coaches [not to mention poster-coaches, like slower and you and me], watching bigs mis-use the rhythm dribble, putting the ball on the floor when they should keep it high and go up for a close-in shot. Just want to scream, every time. Bad, bad words.

Ditto for one of my pet peeves, the one-handed, missed, thunder-dunk, which Miles perhaps a bit more than Mason has "perfected." [I don't even like made one-handed thunder-dunks, as it only encourages them....] I have no idea how K and staff respond to this particular crappy trend, but any missed dunk costs the team 2 valuable points. It looks great when it goes down, but when - way too frequently - it misfires, I mutter unkind thoughts about Miles's decision-making. For me, valuing every possession certainly includes understanding that 2 certain points is preferable - always, no exceptions - to a highlight-reel highlight.

Thanks, Gumbo.

Yes, Mason HAS looked much better than Miles so far. A couple of those passes looked almost Walton/Sabonis-esque! Hope he keeps it up. OSU will obviously be a huge test for our bigs. Cautious optimism (not that we will win, necessarily, but that Mason will acquit himself well).

[slower]

Yo, g-money, keepin' it real!

You said that Dre hit some shots that JJ would have missed. I disagreed. I said that "some" people were fond of making Dre/JJ comparisons. Sorry that you took it personally.

I'm neither a debater nor a playa-hater. Son.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Dang, g-money, turns out I did NOT say "some" people. So, I see why you got cranky. My bad.

[CDu]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here. This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

Not a great analysis of the actual game, and not a phenomenal piece of literary work either. The guy just seems like a Duke fan who is frustrated with the Plumlees and appears to love Curry, and as such lets those feelings color his judgment. For example, he gives no mention of Curry's series of mistakes down the stretch, which were a bigger part of the comeback than Mason's 5-second violation. Instead, he drooled over Curry's calm demeanor.

I do somewhat agree with his stance about the Plumlee's development. They aren't very fluid in the post, they don't seem to have great court awareness, their rotations (especially Mason's) have frequently been poorly-timed, they do have trouble with their hands, and Miles has had trouble with silly fouls throughout his career (Mason seemed to shake that habit last year). This was perhaps an example of that with Miles, but I don't think it was the case with Mason. I'd hardly have called this the worst performance in a Duke uniform for Mason. 7 points, 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and an assist in 32 minutes is not great, but it's far from awful. Miles, on the other hand, did have a pretty bad game.

It just seemed like Ryan projected all of his game frustration onto "the Plumlees" and ignored Mason's positive/okay contributions and any negatives from other players.

[superdave]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here. This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

I read Shane's article yesterday. He's a good writer and clearly a Duke fan, but I cannot help shake the idea that he does not really know x's and o's. I'm not saying I do, just that I know good basketball knowledge when I see it, and I dont see it with him. I have been very pleased with Mason's play so far. He's busting his arse on D and showing some good post moves. He's going to take off in the next few months.

[CDu]

I read Shane's article yesterday. He's a good writer and clearly a Duke fan, but I cannot help shake the idea that he does not really know x's and o's. I'm not saying I do, just that I know good basketball knowledge when I see it, and I dont see it with him. I have been very pleased with Mason's play so far. He's busting his arse on D and showing some good post moves. He's going to take off in the next few months.

I agree with this, except for maybe the post moves part. I think Mason is still kind of methodical on the block. He does appear more confident, and he does seem to have an improved hook shot. But his post moves still seem pretty limited.

I certainly agree on Ryan's bball analysis skills.

[davekay1971]

My take on some of the negatives mentioned in this thread:

1) Plumlee Problems: I'm not at all worried about Mason. He's shown a big jump in productivity and reliability between last year and this year. And his free throws looked, for the most part, MUCH improved against MSU. Mason is a great rebounder...not just a good rebounder, a great one. His defensive presence in the lane is very much improved. His offensive game is improving, though he's not there yet. Miles, I am worried about. That technical was just dumb. He's a senior, he's a captain, and that was a freshman move. Which, I think, sums up the struggles Miles has - he's a physical beast with a tendency to make a bunch of mental errors. I hope he can make a Zoubekian transition, but I don't think there's really a comparison to the problems that need to be overcome. Zoubs was held back by injuries, and his senior season was his first truly healthy season at Duke. His head was never the problem, except maybe that he was overly tentative. Miles has had a healthy body and plenty of opportunity, but he's seems to always be in 2 steps forward, 2 steps back mode, and the 2 steps back always come from an error above the pons. I hope he makes a great leap in his consistency this year, I really do, but I fear he may find himself being the 3rd guy in our big-guy rotation if RK and Mason continue to perform at a higher level, more consistently, than Miles.

2) End of game: I'm not at all worried about this. We weren't good, of course, in end game, but that's ok. It's early season, we were playing a good opponent that plays with the same kind of heart and intensity that we do, and they played with better focus and intensity than did our guys. It was a good learning experience for us. We've got a talented backcourt, but it's still Seth early in the transition from off guard to point, Tyler with limited minutes in end-game situations, Cook with no experience in end-game situations, Dawk who's NOT a great ballhandler (but, boy, what a shot), etc. These guys needed a nasty experience trying to protect a lead against a good, determined, well-coached team the same way they needed a close game against Belmont. If they blow a big lead this way in February, then I'll be worried.

[hq2]

I do somewhat agree with his stance about the Plumlee's development. They aren't very fluid in the post, they don't seem to have great court awareness, their rotations (especially Mason's) have frequently been poorly-timed, they do have trouble with their hands, and Miles has had trouble with silly fouls throughout his career (Mason seemed to shake that habit last year). This was perhaps an example of that with Miles, but I don't think it was the case with Mason. I'd hardly have called this the worst performance in a Duke uniform for Mason. 7 points, 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and an assist in 32 minutes is not great, but it's far from awful. Miles, on the other hand, did have a pretty bad game.

Yeah, I think that what's happened with the Plumlees is that since they are now junior-senior, people have concluded that they simply
aren't going to get any better, or at least not much better while they're at Duke. Both have had 2-3 years to work on their games after
growing into their height (Ryan is still getting better in that area), and it just hasn't happened. Neither has developed a reliable post game
in any form. What we get is an occasional tease; a jump hook here, a nice pass there, that shows some ability and lets us think they'll improve. But, after that, we get travels, missed shots, fouls, snuffs, and whatever, and it got to the point in the second half of the MSU game where it became clear that the thing to do was just get the ball to Seth and Andre and let them shoot it.

I think we're almost at the point where we should just do things like two years ago with Lance and Zoubs. Let Austin, Seth, 'dre and Kelly do the scoring, and let the Plumlees rebound, score garbage buckets, and play D. Hey, we won a national championship like that 2 years ago!

[feldspar]

Put me in the camp of not understanding all the Plumlee hand wringing. Has Miles been unspectacular at times this year? Sure, but it's early. And he has also had flashes of being really good.

You know what Lance Thomas' stats were on the third game of the season in 2010? 1 point, 1 rebound and 4 fouls in 16 minutes of play. My point? it's early, and while Miles is a senior, he's still learning.

Despite some obvious mental miscues, I thought Mason was fine against Michigan State. Not great, but fine. I'm incredibly encouraged by his developing hook shot, but more encouraged by his confidence in taking it. He's only going to get better as the season goes on.

We'll learn a lot about what these two can do against Ohio State. And if we're still having discussions like this come mid-January, then I'll start to worry. But just a bit.

[Kedsy]

If they blow a big lead this way in February, then I'll be worried.

Minor quibble: the team did NOT "blow a big lead" against Michigan State (nor against Belmont). Because they won.

Winning by 20 doesn't count more than winning by 5. Letting a lead slip but holding on is not blowing a lead.

(Not singling you out in particular. Many posters have made similar comments.)

[roywhite]

Minor quibble: the team did NOT "blow a big lead" against Michigan State (nor against Belmont). Because they won.

Winning by 20 doesn't count more than winning by 5. Letting a lead slip but holding on is not blowing a lead.

(Not singling you out in particular. Many posters have made similar comments.)

Yeah, there are a number of elements involved in successfully closing out a game when playing with a decent sized lead.
One is having a dominant ball handler who controls the action, milks the clock, and works for a good shot by someone...we may not have such a person this year
Other factors are good foul shooting, a reliable inbounding option, good overall ball handling including a big man who can handle, good coaching, and practice
We have most of the elements now or potentially, and can certainly improve.

To put some perspective on this, 3 games into the season we have twice had large leads against good teams, lost portions of the lead and won the games
If this is our biggest failing at this point, that's a a good thing overall.

[PADukeMom]

I took zero negatives from the game. It was a BIG game played in the biggest sports forum by a young team. Sure there are things that need improvement but the guy who just won 903 can help with that process.

I had a fantastic experience at MSG watching sports history being made. Had a great pregame dinner at Stout & met some great gentlemen who came in from Hawaii to see the game. We were surrounded by Kentucky fans who were nothing but gracious to me even when I joked around with them. They all congratulated my son & I on 903 & cheered for K.

[pfrduke]

Yeah, there are a number of elements involved in successfully closing out a game when playing with a decent sized lead.
One is having a dominant ball handler who controls the action, milks the clock, and works for a good shot by someone...we may not have such a person this year
Other factors are good foul shooting, a reliable inbounding option, good overall ball handling including a big man who can handle, good coaching, and practice
We have most of the elements now or potentially, and can certainly improve.

To put some perspective on this, 3 games into the season we have twice had large leads against good teams, lost portions of the lead and won the games
If this is our biggest failing at this point, that's a a good thing overall.

This may be implicit in your post, but one other element (perhaps the most important element) is getting big leads in the first place. Being up 20 on a team is itself part of closing the game out. It's a lot easier to deal with miscues and mistakes when you start from a 20-point cushion than from a 5-point one.

[oldnavy]

No time to read the thread...sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

Maybe, but you will never hear him say it.