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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss!

    Exactly what I wanted. This is a great trade for both parties. With all these potential high picks, Celtics can easily trade for a superstar.

    The rich get richer.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  2. #402
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    North Carolina
    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/

    according to Draft Express Tatum is 3 and going to the Celtics.
    Kyle gets BUCKETS!
    https://youtu.be/NJWPASQZqLc

  3. #403
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Exactly what I wanted. This is a great trade for both parties. With all these potential high picks, Celtics can easily trade for a superstar.

    The rich get richer.
    You gotta talk your fellow fans off the ledge.

    Actually, don't. I enjoy the schadenfreude. I loved this thread and poll results. Here's another thread at the point where they find out what the trade was.

    By contrast, here's Philly's SBNation site celebrating. I tend to agree more with the Philly reaction. It's more of a great deal for Philly than it is an awful deal for Boston, who still have plenty of assets left.

  4. #404
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    You gotta talk your fellow fans off the ledge.

    Actually, don't. I enjoy the schadenfreude. I loved this thread and poll results. Here's another thread at the point where they find out what the trade was.

    By contrast, here's Philly's SBNation site celebrating. I tend to agree more with the Philly reaction. It's more of a great deal for Philly than it is an awful deal for Boston, who still have plenty of assets left.
    I don't understand how this is a good trade for the 76ers. I guess I just don't see Fultz as being any better than the other top 4-5 recruits so giving up a 1st round pick to move up 2 spots sounds horrible to me. If I'm the Celtics, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I was hoping Okafor would get thrown into the deal, I think he could use a fresh start.

  5. #405
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I don't understand how this is a good trade for the 76ers. I guess I just don't see Fultz as being any better than the other top 4-5 recruits so giving up a 1st round pick to move up 2 spots sounds horrible to me. If I'm the Celtics, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I was hoping Okafor would get thrown into the deal, I think he could use a fresh start.
    It's a good deal for the Celtics because no matter what, they know Sacramento is going to be bad.

  6. #406

    As I see it

    First of all if Philly had won the lottery this trade would not be necessary and they keep the draft picks. Shows the importance of the lottery.

    Philly is actually trying to build a basketball team rather than collecting "assets." Which is a good thing. Its hard for me to judge Fultz as I did not see him play much and he was on a pretty bad team. I would assume that the Philly docs checked and rechecked his knees. Assuming his knee is fine and that Ben Simmons is healthy and that Joel Embiid is healthy than the 76ers have the nucleus for a pretty exciting team. They will need to fit some other pieces around it and I am sure if Jahil fits. It would be nice to see Philly get healthy players.

    Fultz was probably not a good fit for the Celtics. They should get a very good player and more in the future. I would assume it was the best deal they thought they could get. I don't know their roster but I think Jason Tatum will be an outstanding pro.

    SoCal

  7. #407
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    First of all if Philly had won the lottery this trade would not be necessary and they keep the draft picks. Shows the importance of the lottery.

    Philly is actually trying to build a basketball team rather than collecting "assets." Which is a good thing. Its hard for me to judge Fultz as I did not see him play much and he was on a pretty bad team. I would assume that the Philly docs checked and rechecked his knees. Assuming his knee is fine and that Ben Simmons is healthy and that Joel Embiid is healthy than the 76ers have the nucleus for a pretty exciting team. They will need to fit some other pieces around it and I am sure if Jahil fits. It would be nice to see Philly get healthy players.

    Fultz was probably not a good fit for the Celtics. They should get a very good player and more in the future. I would assume it was the best deal they thought they could get. I don't know their roster but I think Jason Tatum will be an outstanding pro.

    SoCal
    I agree with most of your post except if you are saying that Philly is doing a better job of building a basketball team than collecting assets compared to the Celtics. All Philly has been doing in "the process" is collecting assets and not building a winning team. I think they're on the right track with the young players they have drafted, but they have very few players on their team who have had any record of winning at the NBA level. The Celtics, on the other hand, have been collecting assets, but have also been winning at the NBA level, maybe even a bit ahead of schedule. It will be interesting to see if they can turn those assets into players to make their team better, but my impression is their management has been outstanding lately. Hiring Brad Stevens didn't hurt.

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    I agree with most of your post except if you are saying that Philly is doing a better job of building a basketball team than collecting assets compared to the Celtics. All Philly has been doing in "the process" is collecting assets and not building a winning team. ..
    I read the prior post as saying that Philly is now shifting into building a team rather than collecting assets
    Last edited by brlftz; 06-18-2017 at 12:12 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #409
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I don't understand how this is a good trade for the 76ers.
    It's a terrific trade for Philly because they already have Embiid and Simmons, and they needed an elite guard to complete a young core that should develop into a major contender if healthy. Fultz is the perfect fit alongside Embiid and Simmons.

    Now, obviously, a lot depends on health and how those three develop. But the 76ers are now the envy of most of the league as far as young talent is concerned. Great job by Hinkie to collect the assets and Colangelo for completing the Fultz trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I guess I just don't see Fultz as being any better than the other top 4-5 recruits so giving up a 1st round pick to move up 2 spots sounds horrible to me. If I'm the Celtics, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I was hoping Okafor would get thrown into the deal, I think he could use a fresh start.
    Well that's the crux of the issue. Many evaluators disagree with that. (And even if it were correct, there'd still be the issue of fit for Philly, as Fultz fits better than Tatum, Jackson, etc.)

    Many evaluators believe this is a one-player draft as far as great players are concerned; the view is that the draft is very deep in good players but shallow in potential great players. That's why the cost of moving from #3 to #1 would/should be a lot.

    I think the Celtics share the DBR viewpoint that Fultz isn't in a tier by himself. In time, we we will see who is correct.

  10. #410
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by brlftz View Post
    I read the prior post as saying that Philly is now shifting into building a team rather than collecting assets
    That could very well be. I may need to brush up on my reading comprehension and tone down on my interpretation.

  11. #411
    Join Date
    Feb 2007

  12. #412
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Strange to see so many board members praising the 76's decision to go with need over value. I wonder how many of these very same people list Sam Bowie as one of the biggest draft busts of all time?

  13. #413
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Strange to see so many board members praising the 76's decision to go with need over value. I wonder how many of these very same people list Sam Bowie as one of the biggest draft busts of all time?
    76ers got a need AND good value. That's why Boston forums are upset and Philly forums are celebrating. Boston likely won't get a player as good as Fultz with either the #3 pick or the other first-rounder. That's value.

  14. #414
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    76ers got a need AND good value. That's why Boston forums are upset and Philly forums are celebrating. Boston likely won't get a player as good as Fultz with either the #3 pick or the other first-rounder. That's value.
    But Boston will get two players, one with the #3 pick and one with the other first-rounder. And the combined contributions of two high first-round picks could plausibly outperform Fultz by a reasonable margin over their life with the team that drafted them. That's not value.

    The NBA is a superstar-driven league, yes, but Fultz is not a LeBron-level talent. It's likely, even probable, that having a Jayson Tatum and a Mohammed Bamba (or DeAndre Ayton, or Wendell Carter) will end up being more valuable than having a single Markelle Fultz, even if Tatum and Bamba are both inferior talents.

    (Which is not to say that Philly got a bad deal. Only that it's reductive to say that they got good value simply because Fultz is, for argument's sake, a superior player to either of the players that the Celtics will end up with.)

  15. #415
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    76ers got a need AND good value. That's why Boston forums are upset and Philly forums are celebrating. Boston likely won't get a player as good as Fultz with either the #3 pick or the other first-rounder. That's value.
    Of course if the Boston and Philly forums are anything like IC, then I wouldn't place much stock in their opinions.


    I also don't believe you can comment on this trade until are the pieces fall into place. Boston isn't done wheeling and dealing and until we see the team they field for next season we really can't say how this trade played out.

  16. #416
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Strange to see so many board members praising the 76's decision to go with need over value. I wonder how many of these very same people list Sam Bowie as one of the biggest draft busts of all time?
    Bowie missed an entire season at Kentucky due to a leg injury. I am unaware of a similar injury history for Fultz.

    I am also unaware of any Michael Jordan-level talents lurking in the draft as options to Fultz.

    Apples and oranges, methinks.

  17. #417
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    But Boston will get two players, one with the #3 pick and one with the other first-rounder. And the combined contributions of two high first-round picks could plausibly outperform Fultz by a reasonable margin over their life with the team that drafted them. That's not value.

    The NBA is a superstar-driven league, yes, but Fultz is not a LeBron-level talent. It's likely, even probable, that having a Jayson Tatum and a Mohammed Bamba (or DeAndre Ayton, or Wendell Carter) will end up being more valuable than having a single Markelle Fultz, even if Tatum and Bamba are both inferior talents.

    (Which is not to say that Philly got a bad deal. Only that it's reductive to say that they got good value simply because Fultz is, for argument's sake, a superior player to either of the players that the Celtics will end up with.)
    Usually the "need vs value" argument has to do with a team passing on the best player available in order to fill a need; that is why I pointed out that Fultz is likely the best player available in this trade. That said, you are of course correct that 2 smaller rocks can combine to weigh more than 1 big rock.

    However, keep in mind that the Celtics would be thrilled if the additional pick turned out to be in the Bamba/Ayton range. It doesn't have to be. At all. The Lakers could be a not-awful sub-.500 club next year, in which case the pick probably doesn't convey. And then the Kings could also be bad but not awful the following season; the Kings have been bad for a long time, but did you know their highest pick in the past 26 years was #4 overall (Tyreke Evans)? That additional pick the Celtics got in this trade does not at all have to turn into a Bamba, Porter, Doncic or a Bagley, Zion, Bol. The Celtics very well may have just traded Fultz for #3 in 2017 and #10 in 2019.

    I see absolutely no reason to criticize Philly's trade from a value standpoint. I agree that Fultz isn't a Lebron-type generational talent. But I think he's going to be Harden, and if he's Harden, Philly wins this trade under most scenarios; Boston would have to get lucky with that additional pick winning a top-3 spot in the lottery to allow them to draft the type of talent that can complete the "two small rocks > 1 big rock" scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Of course if the Boston and Philly forums are anything like IC, then I wouldn't place much stock in their opinions.
    I believe in the power of crowdsourcing (within limits). I believe it's a good sign for the 76ers that their fans are ecstatic and Boston's fans are unexcited, at best, by this trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    I also don't believe you can comment on this trade until are the pieces fall into place. Boston isn't done wheeling and dealing and until we see the team they field for next season we really can't say how this trade played out.
    Part of the fun of being a sports fan is that you can comment on trades right away, as long as you acknowledge that you could be wrong.

    I believe this was a great trade for Philly, a poor (but not horrendous) trade for Boston, and now we'll have to see if things play out that way.

  18. #418
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    But Boston will get two players, one with the #3 pick and one with the other first-rounder. And the combined contributions of two high first-round picks could plausibly outperform Fultz by a reasonable margin over their life with the team that drafted them. That's not value.

    The NBA is a superstar-driven league, yes, but Fultz is not a LeBron-level talent. It's likely, even probable, that having a Jayson Tatum and a Mohammed Bamba (or DeAndre Ayton, or Wendell Carter) will end up being more valuable than having a single Markelle Fultz, even if Tatum and Bamba are both inferior talents.

    (Which is not to say that Philly got a bad deal. Only that it's reductive to say that they got good value simply because Fultz is, for argument's sake, a superior player to either of the players that the Celtics will end up with.)
    In the NBA, the team that gets the best player wins the trade (90-95% of the time?). Only 5 guys can be on the floor at a time, having a higher talent average is not as important as having the best talent.

    That said, I can see how Fultz would not be the best fit in Boston. To be truly great, he needs an Alpha+ mentality, and a rookie with an Alpha personality might not fit on a veteran team.

    In Philly, there are still a few years of maturation in front of the talented team, which will give Fultz the chance to grow as the Alpha on the team

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    It's a terrific trade for Philly because they already have Embiid and Simmons. Now, obviously, a lot depends on health and how those three develop. But the 76ers are now the envy of most of the league as far as young talent is concerned.
    That's just it, though, isn't it? Health is everything. You don't honestly believe Embiid is going to stay consistently healthy, do you? I think there is a 0% chance he ever plays more than 60 games in a season, and probably well below that number more often than not. I would have stayed far away from drafting this guy. Every game he plays you're just waiting for the next injury. That's how I felt watching Harry play at Duke.

  20. #420
    I've watched a lot of Fultz. I refuse to act as if he's a can't miss sure fire prospect just because I read that he was supposed to be good. I don't see any difference between him and the other top guys. I don't understand how anyone could get Jayson Tatum and be pissed about it.
    Whatever the hell "it" is, Jabari found it.

    -Roy "Ole Huck" Williams

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