Cards/Pitino Slammed by NCAA

[mph]

Giving new meaning to the ACC:

Associated
Cheaters
Conference

Sad.

Remember the good old days when we could mock the Situational Ethics Conference?

[jipops]

At risk of being a Jay defender, I don't see his attitude towards the NCAA as analogous to being a fan - though I do very much appreciate your words on fandom and why you are a Duke fan.

I see Jay's antagonistic relationship with the NCAA as more like how we all view UNC. They can do no right, and anything that they do, we will find a way to skewer against them. If players go pro, we laugh as UNC being left in the lurch. If they stay, we mock them for being unable to develop talent or recruit top players.

If the NCAA came out strongly in favor of kittens, Jay would find something to hate about it.

I'm not sure I view UNC quite the same as Jay views the NCAA, but there certainly are similarities. Anyone with functioning eyes, ears, and a head above sand is clear about what has gone on in Chapel Hill. I've disliked them over the years as a fan for very superficial fan-like reasons. Most all Duke fans are of course going to find something to disparage unc about, same goes the other way around...superficial stuff...that's just fandom. But I have great contempt for them for the very clear, obvious reason. The same contempt I have for schools like Baylor and now Louisville. I believe unc actually can do right, they simply won't. Jay, on the other hand, preaches a principle which somehow only applies to the NCAA but not big-time college programs. According to Jay, the NCAA should not prevent a college athlete from benefiting from his talents and revenue generation in a college setting but it is acceptable for an academic institution to either mislead or outright deny kids an education while forcing them into labor. At minimum the institution should not pay any price for that. Again, Jay makes absolutely no sense at all.

[wsb3]

or that dude's ego has gone off the charts.

Smartest man in every room he enters...

[devildeac]

From Ted Tatos on Twitter yesterday (scroll down about 4-5 tweets):

https://twitter.com/tedtatos?lang=en

"In Louisville decision, NCAA COI cites Syracuse case and notes head coach monitoring responsibilities."

"Description of Pitino relationship w/ ops director noted in COI Louisville decision remarkably similar to Roy Williams-Wayne Walden at UNC."

[devildeac]

One more:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCYAXBMVwAAllpG.jpg

[devildeac]

One of our former players, Alaa Abdelnaby, chimes in:

https://twitter.com/alaatweets?ref_s...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

"UNC! You're next...#GTHC"

LOL.

9F.

[MartyClark]

FWIW - Bilas was on Mike and Mike this morning discussing the Louisville case and was, predictably enough asked about UNC again. Bilas maintains that the NCAA has no business meddling with the UNC academic issues, and while they are off-putting and distasteful, any penalties will be eventually thrown out if (when) appealed.

I heard Jay arguing with Golic this morning. I generally like Jay but don't like his crusade against the NCAA and resulting defense of programs like Carolina and Louisville. Jay's main argument seemed to be that there was "no evidence" that Pitino knew about this because he and others denied any knowledge.

I don't think Jay actually practices law and don't think he has ever tried a case. Circumstantial evidence can be powerful and has convicted many people who have steadfastly denied knowledge or involvement in illegal schemes.

I don't know the NCAA rules but, as an attorney practicing in Colorado, I love the jury instruction pertaining to credibility of witnesses. I speculate that a jury, or in this case a finder of fact, would not find Pitino's testimony credible. As I understand it, Pitino goes to dinner with the recruit and then leaves and goes to bed early. Never asks his assistants how the rest of the evening went or what transpired with the recruits.

I've coached at a minor level. I've managed people in law firms. I usually knew when something was wrong. A competent manager needs to recognize potential problems and ask the right questions.

I can't imagine this ever happening at Duke.

[Indoor66]

I heard Jay arguing with Golic this morning. I generally like Jay but don't like his crusade against the NCAA and resulting defense of programs like Carolina and Louisville. Jay's main argument seemed to be that there was "no evidence" that Pitino knew about this because he and others denied any knowledge.

I don't think Jay actually practices law and don't think he has ever tried a case. Circumstantial evidence can be powerful and has convicted many people who have steadfastly denied knowledge or involvement in illegal schemes.

I don't know the NCAA rules but, as an attorney practicing in Colorado, I love the jury instruction pertaining to credibility of witnesses. I speculate that a jury, or in this case a finder of fact, would not find Pitino's testimony credible. As I understand it, Pitino goes to dinner with the recruit and then leaves and goes to bed early. Never asks his assistants how the rest of the evening went or what transpired with the recruits.

I've coached at a minor level. I've managed people in law firms. I usually knew when something was wrong. A competent manager needs to recognize potential problems and ask the right questions.

I can't imagine this ever happening at Duke.

There is also the imputed knowledge of a principal for the actions or non actions of his agents. He knew or should have known - falls into the NCAA lexicon for Lack of Institutional Control.

The same logic convicts Roy and Dean.

[jv001]

It isn't the substance of what Bilas says that is most troublesome. I mean he has taken a position and has a forum to make the same arguments over and over.

Personally, I don't see how you can excuse the leader of a basketball program from culpability for the misdeed of his agents (even if he did not "know" what was going on). I mean, the head coach hired those people; the head coach set the tone for what was and was not acceptable; the head coach decided what should and should not be reported to him; etc. A basketball program isn't so large that the head coach shouldn't on some level be held accountable for what is going on in his program, especially when the things that are going are repetitive and not one-off incidents of bad conduct. I haven't read everything he wrote or heard everything he said on this topic, but my sense is that Bilas disagrees (as reported by CDu above). Ok, fine.

What is most disappointing about Bilas is that he is so strident. I mean, when he talks, you get the very clear sense that he thinks he is right, about everything, and anyone who thinks otherwise is corrupt and/or a dumb a**. Either that's simply the way you have to conduct your self in the media today to avoid the ESPN-style cuts, or that dude's ego has gone off the charts.

Someone very close to the Duke program once told me that Jay Bilas loves himself to the point he is arrogant. In recent years it seems that is the case. I can't put him in the same category as Dick Vitale but most of the time I mute when Jay is dishing out his nonsense. At least, Dick is a pretty nice dude. GoDuke!

[DukeandMdFan]

I don't think Jay actually practices law and don't think he has ever tried a case. Circumstantial evidence can be powerful and has convicted many people who have steadfastly denied knowledge or involvement in illegal schemes.
.

Per Wikipedia, "Bilas received his J.D. from Duke University School of Law in 1992. He is currently Of Counsel to the Charlotte office of Moore & Van Allen, where he maintains a litigation practice.[9]

Bilas most notably worked on the case Lyons Partnership v. Morris Costumes, Inc., where he successfully defended the costume business against trademark and copyright claims brought by owners of the popular children's television character Barney the Dinosaur.[10]"

[Tripping William]

Per Wikipedia, "Bilas received his J.D. from Duke University School of Law in 1992. He is currently Of Counsel to the Charlotte office of Moore & Van Allen, where he maintains a litigation practice.[9]

Bilas most notably worked on the case Lyons Partnership v. Morris Costumes, Inc., where he successfully defended the costume business against trademark and copyright claims brought by owners of the popular children's television character Barney the Dinosaur.[10]"

To quote Don McLean (the singer, not the former UCLA basketball player) that was "a long, long time ago."

[Olympic Fan]

Just one point about the Pitino penalty ...

For years, head coaches in basketball and football have operated under the theory of plausible deniability. They don't WANT to know what their assistants are doing. With no paper trail, as long as the assistant keeps his mouth shut (and if he doesn't, he ostrasized forever)m there is no way to connect a head coach to cheating by his staff.

Knowing that, the NCAA changed the rules a few years ago to close that loophole. A head coach is now RESPONSIBLE for anything his assistants do outside the rules -- whether the NCAA can prove direct knowledge or not.

It was that rule that led to nine-game suspensions for Larry Brown and Jim Boeheim. In both cases, the NCAA did not find evidence that either head coach was involved, but he new rule makes them responsible.

I really don't understand why Pitino and Louisville are surprised by the NCAA ruling. Everybody acknowledges that McGee (a Pitino assistant) cheated. Under current NCAA rules, that makes Pitino guilty of failure to monitor. He might or might not have known what McGee was doing -- but he should have known.

BTW: That same rule is going to nail Huckleberry Hound if the NCAA finds that the Cheats cheated.

[mgtr]

Looking at the transgressions of Syracuse and L'ville, they seem to be relatively minor compared to those of UNC, plus UNC's occurred over a much longer time and affected many more "student-athletes." Therefore, I have to conclude that UNC will be hammered far harder than the other schools. Well, I can dream, can't I?

[Nugget]

Just one point about the Pitino penalty ...

For years, head coaches in basketball and football have operated under the theory of plausible deniability. They don't WANT to know what their assistants are doing. With no paper trail, as long as the assistant keeps his mouth shut (and if he doesn't, he ostrasized forever)m there is no way to connect a head coach to cheating by his staff.

Knowing that, the NCAA changed the rules a few years ago to close that loophole. A head coach is now RESPONSIBLE for anything his assistants do outside the rules -- whether the NCAA can prove direct knowledge or not.

It was that rule that led to nine-game suspensions for Larry Brown and Jim Boeheim. In both cases, the NCAA did not find evidence that either head coach was involved, but he new rule makes them responsible.

I really don't understand why Pitino and Louisville are surprised by the NCAA ruling. Everybody acknowledges that McGee (a Pitino assistant) cheated. Under current NCAA rules, that makes Pitino guilty of failure to monitor. He might or might not have known what McGee was doing -- but he should have known.

BTW: That same rule is going to nail Huckleberry Hound if the NCAA finds that the Cheats cheated.

Correct. The NCAA, as I understand it, accepted the proposition that Pitino didn't actually know, but concluded that doesn't matter -- he's responsible anyway.

Frankly, I tend to believe that Pitino didn't actually know. What Louisville/McGee did was absurd and extremely risky. Had Pitino really known, he would have made sure they didn't do something this ridiculous. Especially given his prior involvement in a sex scandal/extortion situation.

[TampaDuke]

I really don't understand why Pitino and Louisville are surprised by the NCAA ruling. Everybody acknowledges that McGee (a Pitino assistant) cheated. Under current NCAA rules, that makes Pitino guilty of failure to monitor. He might or might not have known what McGee was doing -- but he should have known.

BTW: That same rule is going to nail Huckleberry Hound if the NCAA finds that the Cheats cheated.

Except that the NCAA actually charged Pitino, while, for some reason, it didn't charge Roy. I think swood quoted some bylaws that give the COI the authority to find violations that were not charged. I have no idea how often they invoke that authority, though.

[Steven43]

Smartest man in every room he enters...

Surely you jest. I mean......you are being facetious, right?

[Steven43]

It's not like the NCAA is shameless enough to offer up Louisville as a heathen sacrifice to the court of public opinion to make it look like they're fair and objective when they let the Cheats walk... right? Or am I just that paranoid?

Okay, somebody please explain to me why there is the perception that UNC is an extremely influential school with the NCAA. From where did this idea come? If we are talking about The University of Texas or perhaps Ohio State University, okay, maybe I would understand. But UNC? Why would they have any kind of special status? It's not like UNC is the school one thinks of when the subject of big-time college athletics comes up. I suspect this whole 'UNC is untouchable' mantra is off base.

[OldPhiKap]

Surely you jest. I mean...you are being facetious, right?

I think he means, in Jay's own mind.

I think we need a separate thread on Jay and maybe there already is one. Every discussion of the NCAA devolves into a thread about UNCheat, which then devolves into a discussion of Jay.

[jv001]

Okay, somebody please explain to me why there is the perception that UNC is an extremely influential school with the NCAA. From where did this idea come? If we are talking about The University of Texas or perhaps Ohio State University, okay, maybe I would understand. But UNC? Why would they have any kind of special status? It's not like UNC is the school one thinks of when the subject of big-time college athletics comes up. I suspect this whole 'UNC is untouchable' mantra is off base.

I think the reason some people(not the NCAA) began thinking uncheat was a special school because of Saint Dean. You know the Carolina way. I guess Dean's reputation has taken a hit with some of those same people. Well, the ones that are not Cheat fans. The Carolina way is nothing more than win at all costs even if it means cheating. They were the masters of cheat. In my ACC basketball time line it began with McGuire and ended with Cheatin Roy. What a bunch of lying scumbags. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Okay, somebody please explain to me why there is the perception that UNC is an extremely influential school with the NCAA. From where did this idea come? If we are talking about The University of Texas or perhaps Ohio State University, okay, maybe I would understand. But UNC? Why would they have any kind of special status? It's not like UNC is the school one thinks of when the subject of big-time college athletics comes up. I suspect this whole 'UNC is untouchable' mantra is off base.

UNC, I assume, is one of the top revenue generators in the NCAA. Almost certainly well ahead of Louisville, Syracuse, or other recent NCAA offenders. Bot a stretch to see how that might lead to less of a tough love approach by the NCAA.

Hope I am wrong!