the point guard conundrum

[scheyerfan]

we have five guards on the team. right now we are starting 3- Curry/Rivers/Dawkins. None of them are pure point guards. As a result we bring two point guards off the bench.Wouldn't it make more sense for the rotation to be starting either Thornton or Cook? It doesn't matter which of the other three guards are coming off the bench as long as the Seth/Austin and Andre get their minutes- I subscribe to the maxim "it is not who starts the game but who finishes it". I imagine Andre would be the one off the bench IF Austin could play the three.

I realized this last night when Tyler and Quinn came in together. That didn't make a lot of sense for them to be on the court together but it made sense in the context of the game

To expand on the idea- you would have a pure point guard in the game most of the time. If Tyler started then Andre could be the first substitute for Austin or Seth. Quinn would replace Tyler or Seth could get minutes at the point as well

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

[elvis14]

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

You have to admit, there is a certain amount of irony that this thread was started by a user using the handle "scheyerfan"

[Newton_14]

we have five guards on the team. right now we are starting 3- Curry/Rivers/Dawkins. None of them are pure point guards. As a result we bring two point guards off the bench.Wouldn't it make more sense for the rotation to be starting either Thornton or Cook? It doesn't matter which of the other three guards are coming off the bench as long as the Seth/Austin and Andre get their minutes- I subscribe to the maxim "it is not who starts the game but who finishes it". I imagine Andre would be the one off the bench IF Austin could play the three.

I realized this last night when Tyler and Quinn came in together. That didn't make a lot of sense for them to be on the court together but it made sense in the context of the game

To expand on the idea- you would have a pure point guard in the game most of the time. If Tyler started then Andre could be the first substitute for Austin or Seth. Quinn would replace Tyler or Seth could get minutes at the point as well

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

Seth Curry is our starting PG and playing at a high level. He will and should start every game as our point guard. I think we are fine at PG, with how K is managing things right now. I just do not see an issue here.

[OldPhiKap]

K is looking for combinations that work and rotations that work. I think for now he is starting the strongest offensive players we have, and then bringing in some defense (TT) and a distributor (Cook) to change things up. Both TT and Cook were important in the second half last night.

I thought Austin made a very concerted effort to pass more in the second half, and I assume that was "suggested" by the coaches at half. He did well I thought.

Bottom line is that Seth is a captain and the most experienced guard we have. The guy is a stone cold killer and I want him in the game when it is on the line. Austin has the potential to be a lottery pick after this year, and is learning to make the adjustment to this level of competition. I want him on the floor too. And as for Andre, the MSU game shows why he belongs in the line-up.

Nice problem to have, depth that will rotate through the system over the next few years.

[rthomas]

K is looking for combinations that work and rotations that work.

word.

And he does this almost every year. And I have come to the conclusion that he knows what he is doing.

[Kedsy]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the rotation to be starting either Thornton or Cook?

* * *

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

"Pure point guard" is only a label. To me, Tyler is really more of a defensive specialist. He hasn't shown the ability to break down opposing teams off the dribble or thread the needle for spectacular assists. Quinn is still learning the defense. So I don't think it would make sense to start one of them or to take steps to insure one of them was in the game most of the time.

It's not like they're showing amazing PG skills when they play, either. I thought Quinn played well last night, but he didn't have any assists (in 12 minutes). Tyler had just two, in 17 minutes. For the season, Quinn and Tyler have combined for 119 minutes and have 10 assists. Seth has played 114 minutes and has 12 assists. So why do you think it's imperative that Quinn or Tyler start?

[jamesfrommaiden]

we have five guards on the team. right now we are starting 3- Curry/Rivers/Dawkins. None of them are pure point guards. As a result we bring two point guards off the bench.Wouldn't it make more sense for the rotation to be starting either Thornton or Cook? It doesn't matter which of the other three guards are coming off the bench as long as the Seth/Austin and Andre get their minutes- I subscribe to the maxim "it is not who starts the game but who finishes it". I imagine Andre would be the one off the bench IF Austin could play the three.

I realized this last night when Tyler and Quinn came in together. That didn't make a lot of sense for them to be on the court together but it made sense in the context of the game

To expand on the idea- you would have a pure point guard in the game most of the time. If Tyler started then Andre could be the first substitute for Austin or Seth. Quinn would replace Tyler or Seth could get minutes at the point as well

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

Let's give Seth some credit. I think he is doing a solid job at this point considering he has never had had to handle the ball and start the offense like he is now. After the crosses half court the offense does not depend on Seth's ability to drive and create. You can look at that as a good or bad thing, but that is the way it is. I have not seen the offense struggle in the half court so far. The ball movement is the primary thing for this team. The only time the ball does slow down is when it is in Austin's hands, but that is what we all want. He gets to the rim at will and if he doesn't score he gets to the line if not both. If Austin can work his ability to drive, draw, and than dish, we would be even more deadly from three, but i think that will come with time. We just have to remain patient. I mean can any Duke fan out there really be that worried with the Coach K and his track record? I don't think so. I am more concerned about MP1 and the level of his play on a night to night to basis. I like what I see from MP2, I hope he continues to improve and get better as we get into conference play. We are more than alright at the PG position right now. When think about what the team lost, and the level they are performing at now, the future is looking very bright for this team. GO DUKE!!!

[jamesfrommaiden]

we have five guards on the team. right now we are starting 3- Curry/Rivers/Dawkins. None of them are pure point guards. As a result we bring two point guards off the bench.Wouldn't it make more sense for the rotation to be starting either Thornton or Cook? It doesn't matter which of the other three guards are coming off the bench as long as the Seth/Austin and Andre get their minutes- I subscribe to the maxim "it is not who starts the game but who finishes it". I imagine Andre would be the one off the bench IF Austin could play the three.

I realized this last night when Tyler and Quinn came in together. That didn't make a lot of sense for them to be on the court together but it made sense in the context of the game

To expand on the idea- you would have a pure point guard in the game most of the time. If Tyler started then Andre could be the first substitute for Austin or Seth. Quinn would replace Tyler or Seth could get minutes at the point as well

Everything would be smoother with a pure point guard on the court

Andre off the bench? No way. He has more than earned a starting spot right now.

[JasonEvans]

John Havlicek, Vinnie Johnson, Kevin McHale, Toni Kuoc, Jason Terry, and Manu Ginobli take umbrage with your insistence that "who starts" matters at all.

If TT and Quin are going to play about 25 or so minutes combined in a game, what does it matter if those minutes come at the very start of the game or elsewhere?

-Jason "K has sometimes shown an appreciation for having 2 PGs on the floor together (Duhon and JWill were lethal together), which may be why we sometimes see TT and Quin coming in the game at the same time" Evans

[Bob Green]

I do not believe we have a point guard issue. There are plenty of minutes for all five guys to play. I have been a long time fan of Quinn Cook and believe his minutes will increase and I'm a big fan of Tyler Thornton as well. The intensity Thornton brings onto the court is exciting from a fan's perspective. However, I'm not ready to argue for either to start. The Seth Curry, Austin Rivers and Andre Dawkins starting back court is solid with Cook and Thornton bringing energy off the bench. I do believe it is necessary for both the reserves to see consistent action so they are ready to step in and play extended minutes if required due to foul trouble.

[Greg_Newton]

While I like Seth as our halfcourt facilitator, I'd like to see Austin bring the ball up more often. I think that, against better teams, Seth is going to get harassed for 35-40 minutes full-court by quicker guards, and it will wear him down mentally and physically. His offensive value (aside from shooting) comes from his sneaky, opportunistic penetrations, and I think his confidence/energy kind of wears down when he's spending most of his time concentrating on his somewhat-shaky handle and looking down at his dribble rather than surveying the court.

Austin, in the other hand, is someone who doesn't have to think about his handle at all, and will generally embarrass anyone trying to press him. I also think it wouldn't hurt to give him a few more touches that end in him passing, rather than trying to split 3 defenders because he glimpses a sliver of a lane. That's one... habit I wouldn't mind being broken...

Just my initial take, the next week should give us a much better idea of how Seth handles the pressure.

[Devilsfan]

There was a pure point guard available but he recommitted to Texas when we chose to sign Quinn. Hope we were right.

[Bob Green]

There was a pure point guard available but he recommitted to Texas when we chose to sign Quinn. Hope we were right.

Well I'm glad we were successful in recruiting Quinn Cook. I'd rather have Cook than Myck Kabongo. Time will tell, but IMO, we were right.

[Newton_14]

One important point to remember. Duke starts/initiates their offense from the wing position. In the motion set that K runs, the PG brings the ball up the court, and thru either a short pass or hand-off, delivers the ball to the wing, and then cuts through to the basket. The wing then starts the play. It does not take a "pure point guard" skillset to do that. When the starting 5 is in the game, that wing is Austin, so it is he and not Seth that starts the set.

I like our personnel in the back court because of the diversity in skill sets. Seth is a combo guard with a good handle who can wear teams out from 3 and from mid-range with his craftiness and killer stroke. Austin is a combo guard with superior PG type ball handling skill who can attack the basket with ease and finish in a variety of ways. He is also excellent from downtown but has not gotten that going yet. Off the bench, Tyler brings a defensive specialist skill with good ball handling, toughness, and a very solid set-shot 3-Ball. He makes that shot a lot. He also looks to feed the big fellas. Then you have Quinn with an excellent handle, speed & quickness, also really good from 3, and the best passer and post feeder on the team. Weakest of the 4 on defense but is showing improvement in that dept game over game.

So 4 guys, all of whom can be trusted by K no matter who the opponent is, and no matter what point of the game. Tyler and Quinn's minutes will fluctuate, but I think it is safe to say we will see all 4 each game.

The opponent is forced to adjust to each guy because of how different they are, which makes it incredibly difficult to get comfortable guarding them. Just when you think you have the man you are trying to guard read well, you find yourself guarding a new guy who is totally different. I think that is an advantage K can exploit, especially against younger teams.

As for who starts, Seth and Austin will start every game barring injury. I think Tyler and Quinn will come off the bench all year (which is fine), unless our Small Forward situation goes south with Andre, Mike, and Alex.

[gep]

Maybe Tyler and Quinn will be Duke's "twin subs" like Miles and Mason were in 2010 That was just awesome.

[greybeard]

John Havlicek, Vinnie Johnson, Kevin McHale, Toni Kuoc, Jason Terry, and Manu Ginobli take umbrage with your insistence that "who starts" matters at all.

If TT and Quin are going to play about 25 or so minutes combined in a game, what does it matter if those minutes come at the very start of the game or elsewhere?

-Jason "K has sometimes shown an appreciation for having 2 PGs on the floor together (Duhon and JWill were lethal together), which may be why we sometimes see TT and Quin coming in the game at the same time" Evans

TT and Quin grew up playing in the two most storied programs in the most storied league in these United States--they know the game the way few do, and were capable of shining, while leading excellent teams in very different ways. These guys are GREAT ballplayers, we are talking GREAT. And, don't talk to TT about point, or shooting, or 1,2.3 positions--they are meaningless nothings to that kid. We are talking Tommy Amakar with another 20 lobs. that bespeak much, much more strength. I'm betting that when a guy makes solid contact with TT, no matter who intiates, he remembers the moment none too fondly for the rest of his natural born life. Playing Quin and TT on the court at the same time is having too old school basketball minds, one with a futuristic skill set, that would be Quin, and both with an ability to make the easy penetrating pass that makes an athletic big make an athletic play that creates opportunity, creates a defeat of the defender even if the ball is quickly thrown out, which is how Duke is finally at long last playing this year.

If, as has happened, Curry forgets that the game is about making the bigs athletic receivers with the space and potential advantage to score the ball inside, either of these two can easily take his place--you ain't seen a fraction of what cook can do for that team yet, btw. And, if Rivers doesn't learn that game, and I mean quickly, when other teams shut his paths to the basket down with serious muscle (2 guys at a minimum), he can see his minutes shrink too--you want Cook to score you the ball, all you need to do is tell him to, and, in the process, he will always feed the big dogs first.

Yes, Curry is playing terrifically at both ends, escept (1) he sometimes forgets to empower the bigs to wear people out instead of wearing himself out by those beautiful but draining early (in the game and even sometimes the clock) attacks to the basket; and (2), especially when he has done (a), he runs out of gas and starts making awful decisions and executing them worse down the stretch. Now, he might develop the stamina to have it all ways and play well down the stretch, he didn't in 903 at the garden, not by a long stretch, but I think that that is expecting too much, that is, if you want to continue to score the ball the way he tries and often succeeds doing in the first half, 2/3 of the game. We have seen how Rivers can be taken out of his attack-the-basket, you-know-it's-coming-and-you-can't-stop-it game; what we haven't seen his deployment of an alternative approach to being valuable on the court when that happens. I should think that between he and Capel they will figure it out, but it might take time. How much? Time. In the meantime, give me those two kids from DeMatha and Gonzaga, places where the roots of the game are flourishing in this day of "prime time" play, and watch the guys they play with get better and together they hurt people in ways that are timeless.

BTW, both Miles and Ryan (Ryan especially on three balls), need to earn how to differentiate moving their eyes from moving their heads--in other words, they need to be able to look up with their eyes with only moving their heads a fraction of what they currently do. By moving their heads and eyes as of one piece, they throw their heads back to look up, bringing their weight to their heals, which in both cases produces arm shots that have no repeatability. Learning to differentiate movement of the head and eyes is a key element, often overlooked, in athletic performance. It is not difficult to learn. Nope, that's why they pay guys with training like mine the big bucks. (Ryan learns this skill and he will kill people from the three line; as it is, he seems like standing behind him is downright dangerous when he gets to looking up at the basket--differentiating movement of the eyes and the head, baby and the dude will be nailing them the way everyone expects.)

Well, I have to say that I like this Duke team an awful lot, really like the way the exterior guys have been learning to empower the bigs, not my fancy passes, but by getting it inside early and multiple times per possession, and taking advantage of the receiver's athleticism, which, aside from anything else, is by far the most fun and rewarding thing in all of sports--making a pass that asks of the receiver that which takes quick decision making, vision, and modes of movement that are uniquely necessary to accomplish the task at hand. That is, that brings the big and the passer, or passers (it might be gy 1 who sees the entry if guy 2 gets the ball and as the ball goes to guy 2 or before, all three are on the same page) into relationship to create a synergy that defines the best that the game has to offer. You let the Plumlees and Ryan and the other quasi big be full partners in that fashion, and their vision on defense, their positioning for rebounds, their running the floor, their getting the ball in a crowd, starts to amaze.

Duke needs that this year. It is there for the taking, they have the kids to make it work, and it seems also the coach (again, I'm saying Capel) who understands its value.

In sum, if you are a guard playing for Duke this season, I wouldn't forget that letting the bigs be the terrific athletics and creators they are is the number one priority;. You forget that, except in games where the defense commits overwhelming resources to shut that part of the game down, at your peril.
There are guys who are waiting who will not forget; who were born to lead in that fashion.

\It's me, Mr. Greybeard, just kicking it back.

[tele]

TT and Quin grew up playing in the two most storied programs in the most storied league in these United States--they know the game the way few do, and were capable of shining, while leading excellent teams in very different ways. These guys are GREAT ballplayers, we are talking GREAT. And, don't talk to TT about point, or shooting, or 1,2.3 positions--they are meaningless nothings to that kid. We are talking Tommy Amakar with another 20 lobs. that bespeak much, much more strength. I'm betting that when a guy makes solid contact with TT, no matter who intiates, he remembers the moment none too fondly for the rest of his natural born life. Playing Quin and TT on the court at the same time is having too old school basketball minds, one with a futuristic skill set, that would be Quin, and both with an ability to make the easy penetrating pass that makes an athletic big make an athletic play that creates opportunity, creates a defeat of the defender even if the ball is quickly thrown out, which is how Duke is finally at long last playing this year.

If, as has happened, Curry forgets that the game is about making the bigs athletic receivers with the space and potential advantage to score the ball inside, either of these two can easily take his place--you ain't seen a fraction of what cook can do for that team yet, btw. And, if Rivers doesn't learn that game, and I mean quickly, when other teams shut his paths to the basket down with serious muscle (2 guys at a minimum), he can see his minutes shrink too--you want Cook to score you the ball, all you need to do is tell him to, and, in the process, he will always feed the big dogs first.

Yes, Curry is playing terrifically at both ends, escept (1) he sometimes forgets to empower the bigs to wear people out instead of wearing himself out by those beautiful but draining early (in the game and even sometimes the clock) attacks to the basket; and (2), especially when he has done (a), he runs out of gas and starts making awful decisions and executing them worse down the stretch. Now, he might develop the stamina to have it all ways and play well down the stretch, he didn't in 903 at the garden, not by a long stretch, but I think that that is expecting too much, that is, if you want to continue to score the ball the way he tries and often succeeds doing in the first half, 2/3 of the game. We have seen how Rivers can be taken out of his attack-the-basket, you-know-it's-coming-and-you-can't-stop-it game; what we haven't seen his deployment of an alternative approach to being valuable on the court when that happens. I should think that between he and Capel they will figure it out, but it might take time. How much? Time. In the meantime, give me those two kids from DeMatha and Gonzaga, places where the roots of the game are flourishing in this day of "prime time" play, and watch the guys they play with get better and together they hurt people in ways that are timeless.

BTW, both Miles and Ryan (Ryan especially on three balls), need to earn how to differentiate moving their eyes from moving their heads--in other words, they need to be able to look up with their eyes with only moving their heads a fraction of what they currently do. By moving their heads and eyes as of one piece, they throw their heads back to look up, bringing their weight to their heals, which in both cases produces arm shots that have no repeatability. Learning to differentiate movement of the head and eyes is a key element, often overlooked, in athletic performance. It is not difficult to learn. Nope, that's why they pay guys with training like mine the big bucks. (Ryan learns this skill and he will kill people from the three line; as it is, he seems like standing behind him is downright dangerous when he gets to looking up at the basket--differentiating movement of the eyes and the head, baby and the dude will be nailing them the way everyone expects.)

Well, I have to say that I like this Duke team an awful lot, really like the way the exterior guys have been learning to empower the bigs, not my fancy passes, but by getting it inside early and multiple times per possession, and taking advantage of the receiver's athleticism, which, aside from anything else, is by far the most fun and rewarding thing in all of sports--making a pass that asks of the receiver that which takes quick decision making, vision, and modes of movement that are uniquely necessary to accomplish the task at hand. That is, that brings the big and the passer, or passers (it might be gy 1 who sees the entry if guy 2 gets the ball and as the ball goes to guy 2 or before, all three are on the same page) into relationship to create a synergy that defines the best that the game has to offer. You let the Plumlees and Ryan and the other quasi big be full partners in that fashion, and their vision on defense, their positioning for rebounds, their running the floor, their getting the ball in a crowd, starts to amaze.

Duke needs that this year. It is there for the taking, they have the kids to make it work, and it seems also the coach (again, I'm saying Capel) who understands its value.

In sum, if you are a guard playing for Duke this season, I wouldn't forget that letting the bigs be the terrific athletics and creators they are is the number one priority;. You forget that, except in games where the defense commits overwhelming resources to shut that part of the game down, at your peril.
There are guys who are waiting who will not forget; who were born to lead in that fashion.

\It's me, Mr. Greybeard, just kicking it back.

I think that about sums it up, nice to see Mr Greybeard posting again. Duke has good depth at guard this season, and for the team in general, but it is young depth. Not counting the frosh, it's a seven deep team. So, I don't think Coach K putting the ball in his most experienced ballhandlers hands should come as any surprise. And when it is crunch time in a game, that is where I'd expect to see it. Seth has done a good job distributing the ball and still getting his shots and points. How well he can continue to do that will be key for the success of this team. If one of the other guards, like austin, or tyler can contribute some assists along the way that will take some of the load off of Curry. Cook looks like he has a lot of talent, it will be fun to watch how he develops over the course of the season.

Also nice to see improvements in Masons game, he seems to be playing more continuously offense to defense and enjoying the game more. Not to mention his footwork, nice reverse pivots and pivots into his hook shots. I've only seen one of the turnaround jumphook shots, don't miss see the ball spinning off the rim from those.

Competition in Maui will step up so some of the points about roles and minutes will get sorted by game pressure.
For that, the MSU game should be a better indicator than the Davidson game. Should be fun. May turn out Duke guards are more like shades of corundum than conundrum.

[CarmenWallaceWade]

Quinn Cook has impressed me so far. If he demonstrates an ability to play defense consistently, I can see him being a part of our core rotation come March. And I think he will become a fan favorite with his play and positive attitude.

[Saratoga2]

Let's give Seth some credit. I think he is doing a solid job at this point considering he has never had had to handle the ball and start the offense like he is now. After the crosses half court the offense does not depend on Seth's ability to drive and create. You can look at that as a good or bad thing, but that is the way it is. I have not seen the offense struggle in the half court so far. The ball movement is the primary thing for this team. The only time the ball does slow down is when it is in Austin's hands, but that is what we all want. He gets to the rim at will and if he doesn't score he gets to the line if not both. If Austin can work his ability to drive, draw, and than dish, we would be even more deadly from three, but i think that will come with time. We just have to remain patient. I mean can any Duke fan out there really be that worried with the Coach K and his track record? I don't think so. I am more concerned about MP1 and the level of his play on a night to night to basis. I like what I see from MP2, I hope he continues to improve and get better as we get into conference play. We are more than alright at the PG position right now. When think about what the team lost, and the level they are performing at now, the future is looking very bright for this team. GO DUKE!!!

One concern with Seth was his ball handling skills.He seems to be doing that quite well now as he must have worked over the past off season on that. Where Seth still needs work is on his decision making, which has shown up as a problem in end of game situations. Still, Seth is a proven scorer and decent with the ball, so in my mind he remains a better choice at the point than either Quinn or Tyler. Its great to have both of those guys for backup roles though. In the end, I think Quinn has the best chance of being an all around guard that can also play the point.

[sagegrouse]

Several thoughts on who plays the point for Duke:

1. Dean Smith invented positions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. K never bought into it and IMHO (where the H is invariably silent), would love to start a team of five players with Grant Hill size and versatility. I thought he palpably favored the "small" lineup on the USA Olympic Team, where the highly mobile Chris Bosh played instead of Dwight Howard.
2. That said, K like any coach would prefer to have a quarterback on the court through whom decisions are made and who touches the ball on nearly every play. The string of Duke more-or-less pure Point Guards is impressive: Amaker, Quin Snyder, Hurley, Wojo, Avery, Duhon, Ewing, Paulus, and Kyrie. Sure, Paulus -- a classic Point Guard -- was not a star and Hurley, while at the point was a heckuvan offensive player in his own right. I left out JD and JWill as PGs because they were combo guards, and I could have left off Ewing for the same reason. Duke has had success without a real point guard in 1994 (Capel and Hill) and NC 2010 (Scheyer and Nolan).
3. But in the last 15 years, multiple players bring the ball up the court and initiate plays. Think of Nolan for Scheyer in 2010 and Seth for Nolan last year. Point is a tiring role. And the five players listed at guard are all expected to both penetrate and pass, as are virtually all guards at Duke.
   

In sum, isn't being point guard a difference of degree in the Duke program and not a difference in kind?

sagegrouse
'The quote in the title is from a bridge book by Marty Bergen on a totally different subject, except that it indicates that every bridge hand (and basketball team?) has unique qualities'