How lucky did we get with Coach P?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P? I was never a big Alleva fan, in fact I blamed a lot of G leaving on him. But he also made the hire to replace her, which in the long run is looking insanely good. The funny thing is, looking back...P was choice number three. Both Katie Meier and Joanne Boyle were asked first. (They are both doing fairly well too.) So it wasn't so bad going outside of the Duke family.
How many schools have been so fortunate to replace a coach that maintained the quality of a program that G had with one that has continued to do so like P has? She obviously has had her detractors, especially after the first two years, but since she got here she has done nothing but keep Duke consistantly in the upper echelon of women's basketball. You can't say the same about Coach Goestenkoers even...she has her team fighting to stay out of the NIT...and will probably be fighting for her job in the very near future if she doesn't improve.
When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie.

[Kedsy]

Ok..here's a question I was just pondering while writing about Coach McCallie's latest recognition. When Coach G left to "greener" pastures at Texas, how lucky did Duke get by replacing her with Coach P?

Well said. Coach P took a lot of flak from her own fan base during her early years here, but her detractors sort of look silly, now, don't they?

[killerleft]

CB&B says:

"When Coach K finally packs his bags, we can only hope that we are so fortunate with his replacement as we've been with Coach McCallie."

That more or less says it all. I don't think that Coach McCallie was the ONLY coach who could have led Duke to where we are now, but Alleva certainly made a fine choice. We can, as you say, only hope that Duke does as well when the time comes to find a successor to Coach Mike Krzyzewski.

[throatybeard]

How lucky did we get with Coach P?

Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

[Indoor66]

Extremely.

Further, something that has surprised me is how mediocre Goestenkors has been (by her Duke standards) at Texas. In her first four seasons at UT, they were just .500 in the league; at 7-10, she's now under .500. Overall, she's 101-62 (.620); she was an astounding .800 at Duke.

Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Maybe those stats say more about Duke than Coach G.

Duke is largely where it is now because of G. I've followed some of the Longhorn forums the last couple seasons and it seems that G's biggest problem is ironically recruiting. She did an amazing job here, but she didn't retain any of the Texas folks when she moved and basically has had a hard time getting the local girls to buy into what she can offer. She can coach with the best of them, but if you don't have the talent, especially in a conference as tough as the Big 12, you are doomed.

[loran16]

Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

[uh_no]

Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

I think much like you. I've been very critical of Coach P, especially her game planning and offensive schemes. I have been MUCH more impressed this season with what she's done than I have in past years, and I will be most fair in delaying further judgement until I see what she does with a team that is loaded with talent.

Aside from that, she has kept the program at a very very high level, there is no doubt about that, but women's basketball coaches (much more so than mens) seem to be divided fairly sharply into two divisions: those that have won the title and those that haven't. In that group you have:
Pat Summit (tenn)
Geno Auriemma (Uconn)
Tara VanDerveer (Stanford)
Muffet McGraw (ND)
Kim Mulkey (Baylor)

If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Are we lucky to have Coach P? Probably. Are there at least half a dozen other coaches I'd rather have right now? Probably.

I think she grows each year, and I think its an exciting time for her to have the talent she does. It'll be interesting to see.

But to put things in perspective, lets look at the duke women in games against what I would consider to be elite teams each year (yeah pretty subjective and unlikely to be wholly objective, but i'll try...might be better to do record against teams who went to the final four that year...but thats too much work...and i think that's what this comes to anyway)
2011-2012: losses to uconn and ND
2010-2011: 2 losses to uconn win over texas AM (elite 8)
2009-2010: losses to baylor uconn and stanford (elite 8)
2008-2009: win over stanford (second round)

that puts us at 2-7 and several of them have not been close. Now, perhaps I'm being unfair, but since P has been here, as you said, duke has never been "the team to beat."

As I said, these next years should be very exciting for duke womens basketball fans, and the team is super talented and young. Duke has a chance to be one of those elite teams. I think the kids on the team are great...especially Elizabeth (my love for pride and prejudice wants me to call her "lizzy" but that might be a bit to familiar...) and chelsea. Phenomenal players. The onus is on Coach P to put them in a system where they can win against the other elite teams in the country.

[killerleft]

Let's win a title first before we go this far. I think the Coach G think shows that there is a large benefit to recruiting simply from the name DUKE, even in women's bball (and yes, Coach G may very well have built that name brand recognition). But Duke under Coach P has yet to actually be THE team to beat, nevertheless won the big one in the NCAA Tournament (or even got to the F4).

I understand this is a really high bar, especially for women's bball, where UConn has been so dominant. But Coach G had us as the dominant team in her last year when we sadly lost to Rutgers and came within a gorram Shea Doron 3 pointer of winning the big one in 05-06 (and having reached the F4 numerous times before that).

Long story short - We're still DUKE; no matter who we hire to be the Women's coach, she SHOULD have a certain level of success simply by trading upon our own goodwill (and facilities and history etc.). Coach P hasn't yet gotten over the hump yet where I'm willing to consider her hire a "Success," as I'm not sure her results so far speak for anything other than what the usual above average women's coach would do with Duke's resources.

EDIT: First sentence should probably lead, let's get back to the F4 first.

Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

[msdukie]

Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

Just recall that when she was hired, we were repeatedly force fed that she was hired to get us to that last step and win titles. That hasn't happened yet. And certainly before this year, the offense was offensive. This year is obviously much better, but she gets an incomplete. And it isn't just "poisonous Duke fans" numerous national basketball commentators have severely questioned her coaching, especially on the offensive end, each season.

Again, this year has been much better, let's hope the problems resolve themselves.

[Mike Corey]

And to think, Coach P was not Alleva's first choice.

Keep it up, Coach P and Blue Devils!

[Kedsy]

If you asked for the best women's coaches out there, this is a pretty encompassing list. It becomes even more so when you take coaches that have gotten to the final 4 (G, Ceeeeee vivian stringer) Is it a perfect division? Likely not, but its a pretty darn good who's who.

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

[uh_no]

Except Coach P is on the list of coaches who have gotten to the Final Four. She just hasn't done it with Duke yet. But the fact she's on that list weakens your point, IMO.

Did not realize that. thanks for correcting me. I think the overall point still stands though, that she needs to take this horde of talent she's amassing and become one of THE teams...they're knocking on the door...that's for sure...but have to get over the hump.

[loran16]

Hmmm. Just think what the next MEN'S coach will have to do before he gets your stamp of approval. And how long he'll just be above average (IF he can win like Coach P). Then realize that Duke doesn't have a "family tree" coach like Roy Williams to come back home after great success at another school. I'm just hoping the wheels don't come completely off.

Yet you shrug off Coach McCallie's winning ways as some natural course of events that she couldn't avoid. "Success" is something she hasn't managed yet.

So be it. She survived the almost poisonous welcome some gave her because she wasn't Coach G. She's obviously still having to measure up, chasing that ghost. I, too, would love to see that national title (lol). But my definition of success allows me to say that Coach P has already done a great job. And we should all have realistic expectations that we'll soon be making serious runs at that title.

Can you imagine the expectations that are going to be on K's successor? Kind of insane. I think the turnover might be bumpy at first, but will work out, personally. And that will guide my expectations. However, I won't call a successor a success just because Duke doesn't fall very far without K...I'll wait to see how the successor does in a few years after he's settled in.

Coach P HAS settled in - and we know she's not a disaster. But we don't know she's a success. That's a different story. Now she's got all her recruits on the team and the team she built...we should EXPECT success to come about. Is a F4 this season possible? Sure...depends upon our draw really (It's likely not happening mind you).

But until she gets that success, let's not go so far as to call us LUCKY that we wound up with her. That's going too far.

(Do I think she'll do it? I like to think that she will - I think E-Will will lead us eventually to the promised land. But she hasn't yet).

(Note a F4 on MSU doesn't change this argument)

[uh_no]

Can you imagine the expectations that are going to be on K's successor? Kind of insane. I think the turnover might be bumpy at first, but will work out, personally. And that will guide my expectations. However, I won't call a successor a success just because Duke doesn't fall very far without K...I'll wait to see how the successor does in a few years after he's settled in.

Coach P HAS settled in - and we know she's not a disaster. But we don't know she's a success. That's a different story. Now she's got all her recruits on the team and the team she built...we should EXPECT success to come about. Is a F4 this season possible? Sure...depends upon our draw really (It's likely not happening mind you).

But until she gets that success, let's not go so far as to call us LUCKY that we wound up with her. That's going too far.

(Do I think she'll do it? I like to think that she will - I think E-Will will lead us eventually to the promised land. But she hasn't yet).

(Note a F4 on MSU doesn't change this argument)

Well, barring anything crazy, the four #1 seeds are likely to be Baylor, ND, Stanford and Uconn. Yes duke only lost by a shot to ND, but IMO, ND is playing a ton better than they were earlier in the year. Uconn has gone the other direction, and they are very hot and cold in their offense. I think Duke's best shot is in uconn's bracket and beating them when they have one of their off nights. I'd say duke has the best chance out of the teams that are not the 4 listed above...which makes sense as the #5 team...but i'm not sure that makes it not likely.

[loran16]

Well, barring anything crazy, the four #1 seeds are likely to be Baylor, ND, Stanford and Uconn. Yes duke only lost by a shot to ND, but IMO, ND is playing a ton better than they were earlier in the year. Uconn has gone the other direction, and they are very hot and cold in their offense. I think Duke's best shot is in uconn's bracket and beating them when they have one of their off nights. I'd say duke has the best chance out of the teams that are not the 4 listed above...which makes sense as the #5 team...but i'm not sure that makes it not likely.

Well, I'd say Duke might have a shot against anyone who ISN'T Baylor. (Though I haven't followed Stanford this year). As in a repeat of what happened last year.

Anyhow to add to my previous statements, I'm not disappointed with the Coach P hire. I just wouldn't consider us LUCKY to have hired her. There's a middle ground there that I'm in.

[uh_no]

Well, I'd say Duke might have a shot against anyone who ISN'T Baylor. (Though I haven't followed Stanford this year). As in a repeat of what happened last year.

If ND plays in any way close to the way they played against Uconn last week, i'm not sure anyone in the country can beat them. Not even baylor...then again they did that to uconn in the final four last year and promptly lost to texas a&m....so who knows. Baylor is a very simple team, and I think EW would have a much better chance against Griner with a year of experience under her belt...but she's just an absolute monster...and I don't think there's anyone on Duke that can match Odyssey Sims.

The only relevant game Stanford has had is a 10 point loss to Uconn. They've had an incredibly weak schedule. I take it back, I think duke would beat stanford...I'd put money on it. They haven't played a ranked team since 12/20. Unfortunately Duke will be the top #2 seed so will end up in raleigh almost 100% guaranteed, and notre dame will almost assuredly be the #1 seed (if duke makes a 1 seed though over uconn, they'll be in rhode island, and if its instead of ND, they'll stay here in raleigh)....

Anyway, the chances of getting stanford are almost 0...we'd have to sink to the number 8 overall...we could lose our game tomorrow and still not drop to 8 overall. We could however lose out to marland and end up the 6 overall...and end up in rhode island with uconn...or if uconn blew it and maryland was the #1, uconn would be the 2 seed in rhode island and duke would be the 2 with ND in raleigh....

or if we're the 7 seed we'll go to fresno...but assuming all 3 of the ACC teams make the semis tomorrow, one of miami and maryland will lose, so even if we lose saturday, the worst we could probably do is the #6 overall

I'm kind of ranting, but its very very likely that we'll get uconn or ND as our #1 and its a toss up which. We just need to take care of business and win tomorrow

[kingboozer]

We are very lucky to have Coach P and she done a fantastic job with the women's program here. I have no doubt in my mind she will win a national title(s) here, no doubt.

[OldPhiKap]

Coach P is an upper echelon coach and a very good fit at Duke. Congratulations on a great year so far, and best of luck in the NCAA's.

I am hopeful that she will bring us a title, but frankly do not measure "how lucky we are to have her" by it. Harvard is lucky to have Tommy Amaker, but I doubt they're going to win a national title. In women's basketball, several schools have absolutely dominated the sport. I think our goal is to become a team that is considered on par with them moving forward, and the rest will shake itself out.

Glad you're here, Coach.

[killerleft]

Just recall that when she was hired, we were repeatedly force fed that she was hired to get us to that last step and win titles. That hasn't happened yet. And certainly before this year, the offense was offensive. This year is obviously much better, but she gets an incomplete. And it isn't just "poisonous Duke fans" numerous national basketball commentators have severely questioned her coaching, especially on the offensive end, each season.

Again, this year has been much better, let's hope the problems resolve themselves.

Not national basketball commentators! And who force fed to you anything? What was supposed to be said? Transitions are difficult and we'll probably have a rocky road for a while?

The offense HAS been offensive, I'll give you that. We have had some, uh, bucket-avoiding shooters in the past. That makes whatever offensive strategy one uses look bad.

The national commentators have their own reasons for trashing Coach P. Most of them played for the upper echelon programs. Who knows, maybe that's their way of protecting their young. But, as I said a couple posts ago, if the coach who follows Coach K can repeat Joanne McCallie's success after following a legend (albeit a lesser one, you'd have thought the Queen died when she left), we will be EXTREMELY lucky. And, being a glass-half-full type of guy, I think we'll be happy a few years from now.

It is also important that we (all Duke fans) lend support rather than not to a coach who has won two of the last three ACC Coach of the Year awards. Let's hope that is not a problem that gets resolved.