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Thread: Kyle Singler

  1. #1

    Kyle Singler

    He played out of position last year. He is more of a college "3" but often was playing as a college "4".

    Now I know this will rarely, if ever happen but does anyone think this team would be better off he was playing the 3 all the time. Lets assume Thomas and Zoubek improve a great deal.

    For example:
    PG: Greg Paulus or Nolan Smith
    SG: Jon Scheyer or Gerald Henderson
    SF: Kyle Singler
    PF: Lance Thomas
    C: Brian Zoubek

    I think back to the last title.

    PG: Chris Duhon
    SG: Jason Williams
    SF: Mike Dunleavy
    PF: Shane Battier
    C: Carlos Boozer

    They played big. Of course they had more talented forwards/centers then. The strength of the team now is by far Guards/Wings.

    Anyway, Not really a fair comparison but back to my original quesiton. Would Kyle Singler be better off as the 3? I dont think it would be good for the team as a whole as it Leaves Scheyer or Henderson out.

    Mods- If you feel this is a "Projected line-up" thing. Move it. I mean this as a Kyle Singler thread more then anything.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeBlood View Post

    Mods- If you feel this is a "Projected line-up" thing. Move it. I mean this as a Kyle Singler thread more then anything.
    No Mods, please don't move/combine this thread into an old topic. Those things are so big and outdated, I don't bother looking at them - way too many posts I haven't read and I'm not going to start now ... or tomorrow. Please let old threads die.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

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  3. #3
    If Duke were to start Kyle at the 3, then they would be playing Lance or Zoubek over Gerald or Jon...no offense to Zoubek or Lance but them taking significant minutes away from Jon or G would really hurt the team. They would be much better off playing Jon at the 2, G at the 3, and Kyle at the 4, since Kyle has the strength and skills to be a college 4 anyway, and could create serious mismatches for ooponents b/c of his quickness, ballhandling, and outside shooting ability (see results of '08 game @ the Dean Dome). Jon and G are too good to not be starting.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4." I don't know how many times people need to make this point before some people understand. Duke needs four perimeter threats on the floor at all times. Singler is big enough to guard any college four, and his inside/outside skills are perfect for that position. Most teams are playing three guards these days and Singler would struggle defensively in those situations.

    Shane Battier, Luol Deng, Mike Dunleavy, Mark Alarie, Grant Hill, etc. all excelled in Kyle's role. It would make absolutely no sense to play him at the "3." Can we let this die?

  5. #5
    Kyle was playing out of position last year, but it's because he spent a lot of time at the 5 when he is a natural four. I guess theoretically if we had tons of star big men he could play the 3 and he will play the 3 in the pros, but we have so many talented guards that it always makes more sense to have him at the 4.

  6. #6
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    Durham, NC
    While I am not that big of a fan of thinking of things in terms of "3"s, "4"s, or "5"s, I do I think that Singler looks great as a "4".

    Luol Deng, Shane Battier, and Mark Alarie definitely were "4"s. Dunleavy and Hill you can argue (as I will below) were not really quintessential Duke "4"s, but "3"s (or even "1"s). I think Singler will fit in well in the position of good passing, 3 point shooting, and otherwise multi-skilled biggish man.

    You could argue that Grant Hill was the "3" on the 91-92 team, with Laettner the "5" and Brain Davis/Antonio Lang the "4", with Grant even sliding over to the "2" sometime with Thomas Hill out and both Davis and Lang in, since McCaffery decided to leave, depleting guard depth. Grant still was mostly a "3" the next year with Lang and Cherokee. In 93-94, I guess you call him the "1" in the 3 guard lineup with Capel and Collins.

    In 2000-2001, with Boozer, Battier stayed at the "4". With Battier playing 34.9 minutes per game, that left Dunleavy mostly at the "3". We did get some good minutes out of 6'4" Reggie Love at the "5". In 01-02, I guess you would call Dunleavy the "4" and Dahntay the "3".

    I guess what first poster is getting at is that when we have won titles we had a taller guy at the "3", and that Gerald at 6'4" and Scheyer at 6'5" aren't big enough. Has the game changed and you need to be quicker now? Alternatively, is there more than one way to skin a cat?

    Sure, I would love to have a center a la Laettner, Boozer, Brand, or Shelden, as has been discussed ad naseum. However, I think we have a great shot at a national title next year. If one of our big men improves like Alaa did between his Sophomore and Junior years, then I think we will be just fine.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4."
    I agree with Jumbo (exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point)! Kyle Singler will play the "4" as long as he plays for Duke. The NBA is a different, and irrelevant, story.
    Bob Green

  8. #8

    Not a question of 3 or 4

    IMHO, I agree that Singler should be the 4 as he creates match-up problems in that role. Plus, I have a little difficulty seeing him match-up well with a 6-6 swingman. To me, the question is what Duke will get from the 5 position next year.

  9. #9
    I wouldnt compare the lineups ... Battier > Thomas Boozer> Zoubek

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4."
    I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...
    No he doesn't.

  12. #12
    Some here speak of Singler causing match-up problems for other teams by playing the 4, and that is indeed a valid point -- in SOME games. In other games Singler is a match-up problem for Duke when he plays the 4 on defense, he has a very young body, a small forwards body really for now, and in some games lacked the strength to match up with some of the muscular power forwards who are out there, and he tired at the end of the season, also partially due to playing the 5. In other words, basketball is a game of match-ups, and there must be flexibilty with each opponent as to how to best create match-up problems or conversely deal with a match-up problem on defense. With the arrival of Czyz it gives next year's team much more flexibility, in some cases it might be wiser to play Czyz at the 4 and Zoub at the 5 for stretches. The best teams are very flexible, diverse and adaptable as to how the chess pieces are used. I hope to see that with next year's extremely deep team!! Against some teams a combo of Nolan, Gerald, Singler, Czyz and Zoub would be quite effective, against other teams
    some variation of 'small ball' would be the better match-up leading to the highest chance of success.

  13. #13
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    Bigs and Williams

    I think that Singler is a great player and he will keep getting it done next season for the Devils.

    But I think next year will be just like the last if we dont get more play out of our bigs. I think that Coach K is gonna have to work the Freshman bigs into the Rotation alot because we have basically the same rotation as last year, only Williams in my mind is gonna be one of the leading scorers come march.

    So Paulus, Henderson, Singler and Williams will get the job done up top, but if our bigs dont contribute more, Pshyco T and other bigs are gonna dominate the Points in the Paint come next winter

  14. #14
    I hope Singler comes back a year older and more important, a year stronger. The Kyle we saw at the Maui Classic was not the Kyle we saw in Feb-March. All that pounding inside and trying to D up on the 5's took a toll on him, to the point that he was almost a non-factor late. Even if he made a big move, he often lacked the strength to finish off the shot.

    Coach K will choose to play "small ball" again, or work on the frontcourt players (Thomas/Zoubek/Czyz/Plumlee) and build a more outside-inside attack. If just two of those four can somehow emerge (could we get 15 & 10 per game out of the group?), Duke can match up against a lot more teams. I'd even take a couple of losses (hate saying that) in December, if it meant getting minutes for those four, and developing a more well-rounded team for ACC and tournament play starting in January.

    A Kyle Singler who plays less (and more productive) minutes early, could give us a standout performer in the last 15 games. My gut feeling is that Czyz could be the man -- just a matter of "how soon". In the meantime I'll root like hell for Lance and Brian to bring it.

  15. #15
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    I hope I don't sound grumpy in this post, but I really think the whole "3" vs "4" position question is pretty irrelevant to Duke basketball. Coach K hasn't typically played two players in the paint on offense. Duke more frequently runs the motion offense with one guy in the paint, a point guard catalyzing the action, and 3 wing players moving off the ball. Our "4" doesn't work the paint with the "5" as in some other systems. Our 4's, as I remember them, include guys like Shane Battier, Brian Davis, Tony Lang...very different players than traditional 4s such as Rodney Rogers, Grandmama, Karl Malone, etc. Our 4's play more like wing players than true power forwards. I can never remember Duke playing a big, banging power forward and center together with any regularity.

    With that in mind, Kyle makes a great 4 (or 3) at Duke. As a center, which he played a lot his freshman year, he is out of position. As a 4 in Duke's system, he's very much in position.

    As for the concern that we're going to get dominated in the paint...have you watched Duke hoops over the last 20 years? The Duke championship teams of 91 and 92 operated without a great deal of in-the-paint power (Laettner was a great player, but no one was going to mistake him for Patrick Ewing in the paint). Duke frequently operates without dominant rebounders and shot blockers. Duke's going to be challenged on in-the-paint play next year, unless Zoubs takes a monumental leap forward. But if any school has learned to deal with that, it's Duke.

    A team doesn't have to dominate low post play to win. In fact, having a "4" or "5" who can play facing the basket at the top of the key can make an offense very hard to defend. Watch Shaq trying to deal with Laettner...Laettner took him outside and used him, and simultaneously opened up LSU's interior for Duke's wing men. Watch Duke-UNLV 1991 - UNLV's traditional "5" couldn't keep up with Laettner, and UNLV had to decide whether Augmon was going to guard Grant or Davis...leaving Grandmama to chase after whoever Augmon didn't guard. Watch Duke-UNC #1 last year, when Hanstravel had to come out against Singler. Part of Coach K's greatness is adapting his team and system to the personnel. I have no doubt he'll be working that magic again next year, whether we have a reliable post player or not.

    Sorry for the long post...hope some of the above points are interesting.

  16. #16
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    In my opinion, the "3" or "4" debate is only a concern defensively. Offensively, Singler often played as a "3". In fact you could probably best describe our offense at times as: 1,2,3,3,5. Most of his touches in the second half of the season began with him about 15 to 18 feet from the basket allowing him to use his quickness and ballhandling to create a shot. I do agree that defensively Kyle makes more sense as a 4 and I also agree that guarding bigger, stronger 4's all season certainly tooks its toll on him as the season progressed.

  17. #17
    Should of been a little more clearer. My apolagies to everyone.

    Singler can hold his own offensively. Whether he is at the SG(2), SF(3), or PF(4) spot. He can flat get it done. He can shoot 3's. Has some post moves. A mid-range game, Although it isnt a Pull up mid range.

    This concern was meant defensively. While Singler is a smart defender. He cannot.

    A look back to a couple of the last ACC games(I would use March Madness b ut dont know the teams as well).

    Duke vs. Clemson, March 15th.
    Travis Booker and James May- 34 points and 11 rebounds.
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 2 points and 4 rebounds.

    Duke vs. Georgia Tech, March 14th.
    Gani Lawal and Josh Smith- 16 points and 13 rebounds.
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 15 points and 7 rebounds.

    Duke vs. UNC, March 8th.
    Tyler Hansbrough and Deon Thompson- 23 points and 24 rebounds.
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 15 points and 12 rebounds.

    Duke vs. UVA, March 5th.
    Adrian Joseph and Mike Scott- 5 points and 5 rebounds
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 19 points and 10 rebounds.

    Duke vs. NC. State, March 1st.
    J.J Hickson and Tracy Smith- 22 points and 9 rebounds
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 12 points and 11 rebounds.

    Duke vs. Georgia Tech, Feb. 27th.
    Gani Lawal and Josh Smith- 17 points and 9 rebounds.
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 17 points and 13 rebounds.

    Duke vs. Miami, Feb. 20th.
    Dwayne Collins and Anthony King- 26 points and 8 rebounds.
    Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 22 points and 5 rebounds.

    I chose this method because I didnt know who was guarding who.

    Im sure some of you will try and spin what im saying, and I hope you do. Just believe a few different things is all.

    For those of you who mentioned a few Duke players such as Shane Battier, Luol Deng, Grant Hill etc,. Most of these players were better defenders and/or stronger players. If Kyle Singler stays 4 years, Perhaps his name will be up there as well.

  18. #18
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...
    Not really. That 2001 team was really different. Duke basically had two true guards -- J-Will and Duhon. Nate James was a swingman. It's not like Duke had a ton of talented guards to allow K to go smaller. And look at Dunleavy 's other two seasons. He did a fine job play the 4 off the bench as a frosh and excelled at the 4 as a junior. Duke's supporting cast necessitated where Dunleavy would play. Plus, Singler is much stronger than Dun was.

  19. #19
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by NM Duke Fan View Post
    Some here speak of Singler causing match-up problems for other teams by playing the 4, and that is indeed a valid point -- in SOME games. In other games Singler is a match-up problem for Duke when he plays the 4 on defense, he has a very young body, a small forwards body really for now, and in some games lacked the strength to match up with some of the muscular power forwards who are out there, and he tired at the end of the season, also partially due to playing the 5.
    This is a common mistake made by many posters. Most college teams don't have big, burly power forwards. Very few teams play two true bigs -- guys who would play the 4 or 5 in the NBA. I think part of the problem is that Carolina plays two bigs, so people assume way more teams do. But I think I posted a list last season that included top teams and recent champions to show that college hoops is getting smaller and smaller. The 4 position -- especially with the closeness of the three-point line -- is very much a perimeter-oriented one in college. I agree that Singler wore down a bit banging against fives, because Duke's best lineup was four guards around him. We won't see that this year.


    Quote Originally Posted by NM Duke Fan View Post
    In other words, basketball is a game of match-ups, and there must be flexibilty with each opponent as to how to best create match-up problems or conversely deal with a match-up problem on defense. With the arrival of Czyz it gives next year's team much more flexibility, in some cases it might be wiser to play Czyz at the 4 and Zoub at the 5 for stretches. The best teams are very flexible, diverse and adaptable as to how the chess pieces are used. I hope to see that with next year's extremely deep team!! Against some teams a combo of Nolan, Gerald, Singler, Czyz and Zoub would be quite effective, against other teams
    some variation of 'small ball' would be the better match-up leading to the highest chance of success.
    Basketball is about matchups, sure. It's also about getting your best players on the floor as much as possible. Duke's three best players next year will be Scheyer, Henderson and Singler. They need to be on the court together for most of the game. Given Duke's talent at the guard positions (Scheyer, Henderson, Paulus, Smith, Williams, Pocius) there is simply no reason to take their minutes away to slide Singler down a position. Plus, that would mean giving more minutes to the guys who are the biggest question marks (Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, McClure, Plumlee).

  20. #20
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpackdevil View Post
    I think that Coach K is gonna have to work the Freshman bigs into the Rotation alot because we have basically the same rotation as last year, only Williams in my mind is gonna be one of the leading scorers come march.
    Why will Williams be a one of Duke's leading scorers? Have you ever seen him play, outside of the McDonald's game or some YouTube highlights?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpackdevil View Post
    So Paulus, Henderson, Singler and Williams will get the job done up top ...
    Did that Scheyer kid get booted off the team?

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