I can't take it anymore

[Jumbo]

Florida
Brewer 33
Noah 25
Horford 36
Green 38
Humphrey 32
Richard 17
Hodge 15
Speights 3
Werner 1

Kansas
Wright 36
Kaun 23
Chalmers 33
Rush 36
Robinson 25
Collins 25
Jackson 10
Arther 8
(4 walk-ons with one minute each)

USC
Young 36
Gibson 30
Stewart 32
Hackett 33
Pruitt 37
Lewis 21
Wilkinson 9
Austin 1
Cromwell 1

Oregon
Leunen 34
Brooks 38
Hairston 32
Taylor 32
Porter 38
Catron 19
Zahn 6
Oguchi 1

Southern Illinois
Falker 34
Boyle 20
Tatum 31
Mullins 35
Young 36
Green 24
Clemmons 13
Bone 3
(4 walk-ons with 1)

UCLA
Shipp 33
Mbah a Moute 35
Mata 31
Collison 35
Afflalo 38
Aboya 9
Roll 9
Westbrook 4
Wright 3
Keefe 3

Georgetown
Summers 21
Green 36
Hibbert 34
Wallace 37
Sapp 39
Ewing Jr. 27
Rivers 4
Crawford 2

Texas A&M
Carter 17
Kavaliauskas 26
Jones 34
Law IV 35
Kirk 40
Sloan 25
Pompey 19
Davis 2
Roland 1
Elonu 1

Vanderbilt
Foster 42
Neltner 21
Gordon 37
Byars 45
Cage 49
Skuchas 28
Beal 13
Brown 9
Metcalfe 3
Drake 3

Butler
Betko 29
Crone 35
Ligon 18
Graves 39
Green 39
Streicher 28
Campbell 10
Nellems 2

What are those? The minutes played for 10 of the teams in the Sweet 16 from their most recent game.

Duke
McRoberts 40
Henderson 28
Paulus 38
Nelson 23
Scheyer 35
Thomas 18
Pocius 9
McClure 8
Davidson 1

What's that? Duke vs. VCU. See much of a difference with those other teams? I sure don't. And I didn't even include teams that won first-round games and lost in the second round, or teams like UNLV, whose minute-distribution off the bench was 13-11-9-3-3-2.

I keep hearing about all these other "deep" teams. Well, where are they? Maybe some of you should start watching teams other than Duke and UNC play basketball. Then, you might notice that around the country, successful teams aren't going much deeper than Duke.

Give it a rest, already. It's pretty hard to justify saying that Duke didn't utilize depth, was too tired, etc. when Kansas is winning with Darrell Arthur only getting 8 minutes off the bench, when Georgetown's playing 6 guys, when Butler's starting guards play 39 minutes apiece against Maryland's pressure, and so on. Florida, the defending champs, played seven guys, essentially, with 36 minutes off the bench. Duke used 8, essentially, with ... wait for it ... 36 minutes off the bench.

The next time I hear the "depth" argument again, I'm just re-posting this. Depth is a lovely argument to make in a vacuum. It's completely hollow when you look at what the vast majority of other (and successful) teams have done in the Tourney.

[dukepsy1963]

Yep, that arguement/excuse just doesn't seem to wash based on what you present here...!! Thanks ...veerrrrry interesting....!!!

Go Duke Men and Women!!!!

[devildownunder]

K used his bench this year. He had no choice. I have some quibbles with how he used it but he certainly used it. I agree 100 percent that one cannot blame this season's, uhm...errr, relative lack of preferred rational outcomes, on any reluctance by K to employ a deep rotation.

I think the question of whether it would have helped previous teams is still open to endless debate, however, as the answer is very much dependent on the personnel involved and the challenges they faced.


I haven't been reading as many posts up here as I'm sure you have, Jumbo, are people really still harping on depth or is it more the case that people are raising the question of whether specific players could have helped us if given more minutes? Those two issues would be related, of course, but not quite the same thing.

[phaedrus]

that's strange, i could have sworn florida only had 5 players. was noah in foul trouble or something?

[ChrisP]

I'm so tired of reading people around here questioning the coaching staff - I mean, have you SEEN the thread about weight lifting? Do these people honestly think the coaches don't notice/haven't thought of this stuff?

Now, I'm no K apologist, I do get frustrated with things sometimes, but that's part of being a fan. And, while I might wonder about a decision here or there in the privacy of my own living room, I do have a ton of respect for his abilities. After all, the man's got 2 more national championships than I do (side note: the Helms Foundation retroactively awarded me the 1934 national championship because a psychic I once visited in the French Quarter told me that she felt I'd been a great set shooter for the fightin' mules of Kentucky Mountain Bible College). Anyway...my point is that I'm glad to have some "proof" that all this talk about how K should have played so-and-so such-and-such minutes is just that, talk. Most of it uninformed.

Do people really think that K is holding Marty down on purpose? Do they honestly believe that, in practice, he lights it up from 3, never turns it over and plays consistent, hard-nosed defense and the coaches just don't notice it? I'm NOT making fun of Marty here, I love him and all the players and I want them all to do well and live up to their potential. I know when I played ball back in HS, it sometimes took a few times up and down the court to get into the flow of the game and so, yes, I do get frustrated when I see K seemingly "yank" a guy who's made a mistake after only being in for a couple minutes. Doesn't mean he's wrong to make that decision. And he's not going to be right 100% of the time either - get over it! As great a coach as he is, he's human. There's no magic formula on how to coach and substitute and condition players that automatically leads to a "W" or a championship. It's a process, involving human beings.

So thanks, Jumbo, for pointing out that other teams - teams that I suppose would be considered more "successful" have a similar distribution of minutes to ours. I'm just as disappointed that the season is over and that it ended the way it did as the next guy, but please, PLEASE, can we stop with some of the complaining and second-guessing here. Or at least, can we harp on something NEW?

[chrisheery]

I agree that not having a deep bench doesn't make a lot of sense when you have an extremely talented first 5 guys. Or if the first 5 are head and shoulders above the rest of the team. Or if they are far more experienced and you need them more in tight games.

However, this is not the case with this team. I think this team should be looked at differently than others. It should also be pointed out that this formula didn't really work that well for us down the stretch, so I don't see how comparing us to them proves any point. For them, it has worked and they are in the sweet 16, no?

Anyway, the reason it seems more reasonable with this team to let more guys play more minutes is that I (and seemingly plenty of others) are not convinced that our most talented 5 guys are getting the majority of the minutes. Only by allowing the bench to play more do you find out who the elite players are that should get the majority of the minutes when you have a whole team of freshmen and sophomores.

Speaking to the point about Marty: there is such a thing a self-fullfilling prophecy. In his case, if Coach K pulled him aside and said: "son, you and gerald can do things no one else on this team can do. i know you will make mistakes doing them, but i want you to try to do it anyway. as you have success, you will realize where the mistakes come from and try to avoid them going forward, and we will help you do that," I think Marty would respond well. Thats all anyone seems to be saying. Once you tell a kid he makes too many mistakes, he only thinks about the mistakes. You know who else made lots of mistakes at the same age? Jason Williams and Bobby Hurley. You know why no one cared? Because they could do things no one else could do for us. And when you gave them a little freedom to do those things, the good outweighed the bad exponentially. Will Marty be those guys? No, probably not. Is he the closest thing, aside from Hendo, we have on this team? I think so.

So, instead of trying to recruit a guy like him who makes less mistakes and plays better D, why not let him play on a team that is already having trouble winning and learn for next year? I don't think this is a crazy thought. I can tell you letting someone play inefficiently for 37 minutes a game certainly doesn't lead to any change. Maybe some of our starters would be better guys coming off the bench.

[Lulu]

I haven't been complaining about depth this year, at least I hope not, as it really wasn't much of an issue for us this year. In past years, yes, I have complained. In any case, I don't remember foul trouble hurting us that often this year anyway.

That said, it was out of sheer curiosity that I went ahead and looked up our foes in their most recent game:

R. Terry, F 27
B. Wright, F 23
T. Hansbrough, F 38
W. Ellington, 22
T. Lawson, 36
M. Ginyard, 17
D. Green, 8
D. Thompson, 13
W. Miller, 7
A. Stepheson, 4
5 others with 1 minutes

...pretty deep.


The rest:
Tennessee
W. Chism, F 18
D. Bradshaw, G 23
J. Smith, G 32
C. Lofton, G 33
R. Smith, G 32
J. Howell, G 10
J. Tabb, G 13
D. Crews, F 18
R. Childress, F 21

UNLV
G. Essengue, F 29
J. Adams, G 27
K. Kruger, G 37
M. Umeh, G 37
W. White, G 29
J. Anthony, C 11
C. Terry, G-F 13
J. Darger, F 9
C. Bailey, F 3
M. Lawrence, G 3
R. Rougeau, G 2

Wisconsin
M. Landry, F 27
A. Tucker, F 39
J. Chappell, F-C 18
M. Flowers, G 19
K. Taylor, G 36
J. Bohannon, G 30
T. Hughes, G 7
G. Stiemsma, C 8
J. Krabbenhoft, G-F 16

Memphis
R. Dozier, F 34
J. Dorsey, F 30
W. Kemp, G 11
A. Anderson, G 37
C. Douglas-Roberts, G 23
J. Hunt, G 23
A. Allen, G 29
D. Mack, G 8
K. Cooper, F-C 5

OSU
I. Harris, F 20
G. Oden, C 35
M. Conley Jr., G 43
R. Lewis, G 35
J. Butler, G 43
D. Lighty, G-F 12
D. Cook, G 19
O. Hunter, F 14
M. Terwilliger, F-C 4
...OT game

Louisville
T. Williams, F 37
E. Clark, G-F 19
D. Padgett, F-C 18
E. Sosa, G 34
B. Jenkins, G 27
J. Palacios, F 20
D. Caracter, F 7
A. McGee, G 5
J. Smith, G 16
T. Farley, C 15
2 with 1 minute

Pitt
L. Kendall, F 34
A. Gray, C 26
L. Fields, G 39
A. Graves, G 34
M. Cook, G-F 22
K. Benjamin, G 14
R. Ramon, G 28
T. Biggs, F 3
S. Young, F 25

VCU
W. Fameni, F 25
M. Anderson, F 41
E. Maynor, G 42
B. Walker, G 37
J. Pellot-Rosa, G 36
M. Coward, G 3
F. Ndongo, F 11
J. Shuler, G 20
C. Roland, C 6
T. Gwynn, F 4

To Repeat:
J. McRoberts, F-C 40
G. Henderson, G-F 28
G. Paulus, G 38
D. Nelson, G 23
J. Scheyer, G 35
M. Pocius, G-F 9
D. McClure, F 8
L. Thomas, F 18
J. Davidson, G 1

There's a few OTs and injuries in there, and even so, not many teams going much deeper than us, if at all. I'd say only a few are legitimately 8 deep to an extent further than us. UNC being legitimately 9 deep is just ridiculous.

Now, to play devils' advocate for a second, you could say that those arguing about our depth mean more specifially "post-depth" (or perhaps developing depth througout the season). In that case... maybe there's a point to be made. After all, 5 of our guys playing significant minutes have a "G" for guard somewhere next to them. We're always overloaded with guards and everyone knows that. Perhaps we could use a couple more 4's and 5's with significant minutes. I think a lot of people were just sad to see Zoubek not even take off him warm-ups in the last game of the season, despite whatever type of team we were playing.

Edit: Ok, so there are a couple extra in there of interest but who lost, like Wisconsin #2 seed, VCU who beat us, and Louisville (Pitino). Didn't notice the first time, but Tennessee has pretty incredible balace, or depth, too I guess.

[dukie8]

i haven't been reading a lot of messages complaining that the bench should have been played more against vcu. what i have read is how it was used and/or who was on it. can you explain why scheyer was in there for 35 minutes? i sure hope it wasn't for his defense. he scored a grand total of 7 points in 35 minutes so it wasn't for his offense. are you going to tell me if marty had his 35 minutes and scheyer took marty's 9 minutes, marty would have walked away with less than 7 points and/or maynor would have put up 50?

[EagleDevil]

Jumbo,

Were it not for all the instability with the board systems, I would have posted by now that I was happy to see Coach K recognize that this was a year to play depth. (Have you seen anyone complaining about depth, or are you just getting a jump on next year? ) It wasn't just the VCU game, of course. I think it happened around the time of the 4-game losing streak. It didn't work to turn the season around, but hopefully it will at least encourage folks like Marty and Lance to stick around.

I hope K gets used to it, because if Josh leaves, next year's team is going to have a ton of players and no obvious superstars... 40 minutes of Blue Devil hell, anyone?

Chris

[AluminumDuke]

i haven't been reading a lot of messages complaining that the bench should have been played more against vcu. what i have read is how it was used and/or who was on it. can you explain why scheyer was in there for 35 minutes? i sure hope it wasn't for his defense. he scored a grand total of 7 points in 35 minutes so it wasn't for his offense. are you going to tell me if marty had his 35 minutes and scheyer took marty's 9 minutes, marty would have walked away with less than 7 points and/or maynor would have put up 50?

Do you know for a certainty that if Marty had taken Scheyer's 35 minutes that the defensive attention that was so obviously focused on Scheyer throughout that game would have been given to Marty? If so, Marty may have had 7 points or less. If not, certainly that defensive attention focused elsewhere would have affected someone's scoring.

As for Maynor putting up 50, again this assumes that Marty would have guarded Maynor in a vacuum. Maybe Maynor doesn't score 50. Maybe the help that the rest of the team gives Marty when he is out of position or loses Maynor results in increased production for the rest of VCU's team.

I don't claim to know the answers to these questions, so I'll defer to those who are paid to do answer these questions. I assume that these are the types of questions the coaching staff asks themselves in preparing for every game.

[Jumbo]

Speaking to the point about Marty: there is such a thing a self-fullfilling prophecy. In his case, if Coach K pulled him aside and said: "son, you and gerald can do things no one else on this team can do. i know you will make mistakes doing them, but i want you to try to do it anyway. as you have success, you will realize where the mistakes come from and try to avoid them going forward, and we will help you do that," I think Marty would respond well. Thats all anyone seems to be saying. Once you tell a kid he makes too many mistakes, he only thinks about the mistakes. You know who else made lots of mistakes at the same age? Jason Williams and Bobby Hurley. You know why no one cared? Because they could do things no one else could do for us. And when you gave them a little freedom to do those things, the good outweighed the bad exponentially. Will Marty be those guys? No, probably not. Is he the closest thing, aside from Hendo, we have on this team? I think so.

Do you have any idea what Coach K has, or hasn't, been telling him in practice for two years? Answer: No, you don't. Marty got some good run against VCU. He leaked out for one fast break layup, and was otherwise extremely quiet. I'm telling you, Marty is the ultimate manifestation of backup QB syndrome. We see him in limited minutes and immediately want to believe he's capable of much more. Then he has one breakout game and assume that's what he can give Duke regularly, and dismiss the idea that it might be an anomaly. Something tells me that Coach K is pretty damn competitive, and that he's probably not limiting someone's minutes who would help him win.

[feldspar]

Oh please, Jumbo. Quit trying to use these shifty tactics like "facts" and "logic" on us. We see right through you.

[Jumbo]

i haven't been reading a lot of messages complaining that the bench should have been played more against vcu. what i have read is how it was used and/or who was on it. can you explain why scheyer was in there for 35 minutes? i sure hope it wasn't for his defense. he scored a grand total of 7 points in 35 minutes so it wasn't for his offense. are you going to tell me if marty had his 35 minutes and scheyer took marty's 9 minutes, marty would have walked away with less than 7 points and/or maynor would have put up 50?

Sure, I can explain it. 1) Nelson was in foul trouble. 2) Scheyer is Duke's second-best perimeter defender, and drew Maynor for much of the game. (And, while Maynor went nuts at the end, he did a good job for much of the night -- many of Duke's real breakdowns were in transition D) 3) Scheyer is a key secondary ball-handler, especially against VCU's press, and is much better in this regard. 4) Scheyer, even when he's not scoring, draws attention, stretches the floor, and is a steadying influence.
Should Scheyer have shot more? Absolutely -- he passed up open looks. But Pocius scored three points in nine minutes, and they all came on a busted play -- a touchdown pass over the press. So, what else did he do on offense?
The fact that you are seemingly advocating giving Marty Scheyer's 35 minutes is patently absurd. Scheyer, in all the threads, is consistently overlooked because he does all the little things that go over most fans heads. He's going to be exposed to a certain degree given his heavy minutes, but can you imagine what people might say about Marty if he were defending for 35 minutes? It's an absurd line of reasoning. When people start talking about how Scheyer isn't "quick" enough, or complain about his defense, or things of that nature, it's clear they aren't getting it. And the fascination with Pocius has become something of a schoolboy crush -- people are overlooking five flaws because he's the basketball equivalent of a "hottie" based on his hops, speed and performance against NCSU.

[Jumbo]

Jumbo,

Were it not for all the instability with the board systems, I would have posted by now that I was happy to see Coach K recognize that this was a year to play depth. (Have you seen anyone complaining about depth, or are you just getting a jump on next year? ) It wasn't just the VCU game, of course. I think it happened around the time of the 4-game losing streak. It didn't work to turn the season around, but hopefully it will at least encourage folks like Marty and Lance to stick around.

I hope K gets used to it, because if Josh leaves, next year's team is going to have a ton of players and no obvious superstars... 40 minutes of Blue Devil hell, anyone?

Chris

Sadly, I've seen it in a bunch of different threads. Glad you've come around on this one. And I believe Duke will go at least eight deep next year. Next could remind me of 1996-97, if not 1997-98. Duke might not go that deep, but if Josh is the only departure, and Duke gets Patterson, I can't see any scenario in which, at the very least, Paulus, Scheyer, Nelson, Henderson, Singler, Patterson, Thomas, Smith, McClure and Zoubek get regular playing time. Pocius could be on the outside, looking in with that group, and McClure/Zoubek could fall out too. King will be a specialist. Either way, K won't keep many of those kids off the floor.

[TampaDuke]

I think K has used his depth more this year than any other in the recent past. He also seems to have experimented more this year. I don't have any quibbles with either of those issues and, in fact, welcome it.

That said, I think the "we don't use our depth" crowd would not argue that we didn't use the bench enough in the VCU game. Rather, from what I've seen, the argument is that we don't use our depth enough earlier in the season. I was glad to see Marty get some meaningful minutes toward the end of the season, but it does make me wonder what he could have brought earlier, even last year.

Looking at one game of numbers doesn't really capture the argument (for or against), IMHO.

[chrisheery]

i have a crush on pocius. your point is well taken that we focus on the good and ignore the bad when we wish that he played more. i would answer that one way: try it one time and find out what happens.

the thing is, if marty is being over played like shy-guy was, he would go by the guy. he might also turn it over, but he proved on multiple occasions that when one guy overplays him, he beats at least that guy (all year, even when barely playing). those plays usually resulted in him throwing it out of bounds. however, i respond to that problem thusly: at least he isn't throwing it away at midcourt or standing not knowing what to do until the shot clock runs down. with a little more experience, maybe those drives turn productive or at least make the guy guarding him more concern.

i am not saying that scheyer offers nothing to our team. i think he is going to be a great one for us. i think hendo will too. all i am saying is that if you take 4-5 minutes from dmarc and 4-5 from scheyer, maybe you get to see if pocius really has any impact over a longer period of time.

also, i think this defensive liability thing is overrated. josh and mcclure couldn't have been burned worse on defense in the NC state tournament game. i mean, every single play was a pick and role right at them and they were out of position each time. i never heard anyone saying that those guys deserve no minutes because they made some mistakes. however, i rumor got passed around that coach k has a problem with marty's defense. not sure i have ever heard him say it. now, it is fact and used to explain everything about him. look, it is hard to get adjusted to the pace of the game in the 4 minutes you are in. i bet with more time in any game anyone improves their positioning and awareness. this whole team had a problem with team defense and awareness, i don't see how he was that much worse.

yes, i love him. love him.

[imagepro]

. Either way, K won't keep many of those kids off the floor.

I want kids to play. It's good for MANY reasons, and mainly team moral.

But based on many years of observation, I sorta' doubt we ever go as deep as you seem think we may next year. I hope you're right and I'm wrong!

[Saratoga2]

[QUOTE=Jumbo;8857]Sure, I can explain it. 1) Nelson was in foul trouble. 2) Scheyer is Duke's second-best perimeter defender, and drew Maynor for much of the game. (And, while Maynor went nuts at the end, he did a good job for much of the night -- many of Duke's real breakdowns were in transition D) 3) Scheyer is a key secondary ball-handler, especially against VCU's press, and is much better in this regard. 4) Scheyer, even when he's not scoring, draws attention, stretches the floor, and is a steadying influence.
Should Scheyer have shot more? Absolutely -- he passed up open looks. But Pocius scored three points in nine minutes, and they all came on a busted play -- a touchdown pass over the press. So, what else did he do on offense?
The fact that you are seemingly advocating giving Marty Scheyer's 35 minutes is patently absurd. Scheyer, in all the threads, is consistently overlooked because he does all the little things that go over most fans heads. QUOTE]

Scheyer reminds me a lot of John Havlicek in that he was around 6'5 and about 205 pounds playing for the Celtics. He also had incredible stamina and had about the same speed as Scheyer has. Clearly Jon will add strength and grow into a better player with time and also as his confidence and assertiveness grows.

I agree totally that Jon is our second best ball handler and is not rattled by pressure into a lot of unforced turnovers. He has the shooting form needed to put up respectable points per game and also has other skills that will allow him to penetrate and score. His foul shooting is also a strong attribute on a team sorely lacking in that regard. Next season he is likely to make significant improvements in his game. A quicker shot release, more assertiveness and added strength are the areas he needs to improve.

[jkidd31]

Do you have any idea what Coach K has, or hasn't, been telling him in practice for two years? Answer: No, you don't. Marty got some good run against VCU. He leaked out for one fast break layup, and was otherwise extremely quiet. I'm telling you, Marty is the ultimate manifestation of backup QB syndrome. We see him in limited minutes and immediately want to believe he's capable of much more. Then he has one breakout game and assume that's what he can give Duke regularly, and dismiss the idea that it might be an anomaly. Something tells me that Coach K is pretty damn competitive, and that he's probably not limiting someone's minutes who would help him win.

I love the backup QB analogy Jumbo, I think that is dead on. I think if Marty improves his D he could be the classic instant offense guy off the bench. But scoring is negated if your guy blows by you for layups.

[imagepro]

Several thanked Jumbo for his research, and I do too. It took some effort and time. And the same to you too LuLu!

One member noted to him, --"Yep, that arguement/excuse just doesn't seem to wash based on what you present here...!! Thanks ...veerrrrry interesting....!!!

"Very interesting" Huh? Well Lulu, to you I say ---"Very Interesting. That arguement/excuse just doesn't seem to wash based on what you present here. Thanks for pointing that out."

Guys and gals, it proves one thing--nothing. Is Jumbo right or is Lulu right? We have our feelings and opinions. You can put what you want in a post (myself included), to attempt to substantiate or validate your views. But usually, someone will counter as Lulu did. Sometimes logically, sometimes not.

I like what Lulu posted, you may like what Jumbo put up. Either is ok.

Jumbo, you say "I can't take it anymore"--- I bet time proves you can!!!

Seee Yaa!