Lacrosse

[greybeard]

Actually two other ACC schools play lacrosse, women's lacrosse.

Why only four men's lacrosse teams? Title IX.

Try to find men's volleyball, men's gymnastics, men's wrestling, even much of men's track is gone from high school and collegiate sports.

Title IX is an awful law made worse by idiot judges who have interpretted it to require absolute equality between the sexes even though there is a significantly higher percentage of men interested in team sports than women. Any fair-minded person recognizes the problem, but no politician would be caught dead appearing to curtail "women's rights" by amending the law to reasonably promote equal opportunities in sports.

Sore spot? Yep, I have watched scholarship opportunities for my teenage sons disappear in wrestling and gymnastics as schools like Michigan State have discontinued the programs. My son cannot play high school volleyball, because the school discontinued that program due to Title IX and he must now drive 45 minutes each way just to practice with a club team. It was a nasty bloodbath watching the community fight over which boys sports programs had to be cut to allow for an equal number of girls teams. The bitterness still lasts.

Even though girls have been allowed to play on boys teams, boys are not allowed to play on girls teams. Many boys volleyball players have tried this, arguing that it is the only school sponsored volleyball team and they are entitled to equal opportunity to play volleyball. I guess equal doesn't always mean the same thing.

Sorry to go so far off topic. But it relates to the question asked.

The man has a point. An excellent one, imo. This is plain wrong.

[NYC Duke Fan]

There are only 56 Division I men's lacrosse teams, so most schools in general don't have one. And the ACC is the only BCS conference to have men's lacrosse. There are a few other BCS conference schools that join other conferences for men's lax, though (for example, Ohio State is in the "Lacrosse America" conference).

Doesn't the IVY League have men's lacrosse ? I think that only Columbia does not field a lacrosse team...maybe Penn doesn't either but I'm not sure on it.

[Lavabe]

Actually two other ACC schools play lacrosse, women's lacrosse.

Why only four men's lacrosse teams? Title IX.

...

Sorry to go so far off topic. But it relates to the question asked.

You've avoided discussion of ... lacrosse.

Rather than berate Title IX in discussing the main topic of this thread, a more relevant fact that should be acknowledged is that lacrosse, although the fastest growing sport (especially among women), has historically in pre-college levels, been well-developed on the east coast (mostly northeast). Georgia only recently made it a statewide varsity sport for both boys and girls. When growing up in Jersey, lacrosse was not recognized as a varsity sport, but over the border in NY State it was. Only relatively recently has the sport reached similar New York state levels in places, such as Georgia.

More relevant is the fact that historically, lacrosse folks developed their own conferences, some of which provided more strength of schedule than the traditional "BCS" kinds of conferences.

One such conference is the one that MOST "ACC" schools are part of, the Southeastern Lacrosse Conference, which includes: Miami, FSU, VaTech, GaTech, Wake, NCSU, and Clemson.

On the women's side, the nationally dominant Northwestern team is part of the American Lacrosse Conference, not the Big Ten (Eleven).

Staying on topic, FWIW, I am very thankful that lacrosse is available for girls. My daughter had tried a bunch of sports (gymnastics, swimming, soccer, volleyball, among others), didn't like most of them due to injuries, taunting, inexperienced/improper coaches, cost, lack of friends, schedules, a variety of factors. She also tries to balance academics, music, and other activities (sort of like her dad ). General interest in sports wasn't one of them. She just didn't find the one that she could enjoy that much, until lacrosse. I am glad the lacrosse organizations have put together these opportunities.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[blueprofessor]

Doesn't the IVY League have men's lacrosse ? I think that only Columbia does not field a lacrosse team...maybe Penn doesn't either but I'm not sure on it.

...seems to be listed and ranked at the Laxpower website.Further,the various conferences appear with their component teams.In another ranking service,the Duke men's team is ranked #2 behind leader Syracuse.Link for Laxpower:
http://www.laxpower.com/index.php


Best regards.

[devil84]

More relevant is the fact that historically, lacrosse folks developed their own conferences, some of which provided more strength of schedule than the traditional "BCS" kinds of conferences.

One such conference is the one that MOST "ACC" schools are part of, the Southeastern Lacrosse Conference, which includes: Miami, FSU, VaTech, GaTech, Wake, NCSU, and Clemson.

It's my understanding that at NCSU, their team is a club team rather than a varsity sport. While I'm fairly new to this whole lacrosse thing, I'm learning quickly as my son is on his high school JV lacrosse team. Being one of the closest high schools to NCSU, our JV coaches at the beginning of the year were NCSU students who explained the NCSU program to the kids.

I noticed that a few other schools in the Southeastern Lacrosse Conference have a President listed; a varsity sport would not. I'm going to guess that this conference is a collection of club teams. I would expect the funding to be dramatically different between club and varsity teams, necessitating different conferences. Duke, Maryland, UVA, and UNC are all varsity teams, and are competing at a dramatically different level than what appear to be club teams at the rest of the ACC schools.

Staying on topic, FWIW, I am very thankful that lacrosse is available for girls. My daughter had tried a bunch of sports (gymnastics, swimming, soccer, volleyball, among others), didn't like most of them due to injuries, taunting, inexperienced/improper coaches, cost, lack of friends, schedules, a variety of factors. She also tries to balance academics, music, and other activities (sort of like her dad ). General interest in sports wasn't one of them. She just didn't find the one that she could enjoy that much, until lacrosse. I am glad the lacrosse organizations have put together these opportunities.

I know a number of girls on the girls lacrosse team at the high school, and they love it. I'm so glad we've come so far since I was a girl. I don't know that lacrosse, or even soccer, was available when I was a girl growing up in Chicago. Instead, I was the only girl on my ice hockey team -- and Dad had to pitch a fit to get me to play. Had there been a lacrosse team, I'd have probably played.

My son loves lacrosse, too. He comes home with a new bruise or injury almost daily (this is FUN?!), and really enjoys the sport. He hopes to continue playing at the college level.

[gvtucker]

FWIW, the Southestern Lacrosse Conference is part of the Men's Collegiate Lacrosse Association, which is for non-NCAA club lacrosse teams. That's a level below NCAA, which has three levels, D I (the top division, the one that Duke is in), D II, and D III.

[Lavabe]

It's my understanding that at NCSU, their team is a club team rather than a varsity sport. While I'm fairly new to this whole lacrosse thing, I'm learning quickly as my son is on his high school JV lacrosse team. Being one of the closest high schools to NCSU, our JV coaches at the beginning of the year were NCSU students who explained the NCSU program to the kids.

I noticed that a few other schools in the Southeastern Lacrosse Conference have a President listed; a varsity sport would not. I'm going to guess that this conference is a collection of club teams. I would expect the funding to be dramatically different between club and varsity teams, necessitating different conferences. Duke, Maryland, UVA, and UNC are all varsity teams, and are competing at a dramatically different level than what appear to be club teams at the rest of the ACC schools.

Your understanding of the other ACC teams is correct. The SELC is part of the MCLA, all non-varsity. Having said that, the few GT folks I know would take offense if you said they weren't a varsity athlete. Then again, I've been in Division III schools for so long that I often cannot tell the difference between club and other sports.

I believe the formation of these lacrosse conferences vary in their participation at NCAA levels. For example, the American Lacrosse Conference (w/Northwestern's women's team) IS an NCAA sponsor, even though their funding may differ somewhat from the Big Ten teams at the school.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[devil84]

Your understanding of the other ACC teams is correct. The SELC is part of the MCLA, all non-varsity. Having said that, the few GT folks I know would take offense if you said they weren't a varsity athlete. Then again, I've been in Division III schools for so long that I often cannot tell the difference between club and other sports.

I don't mean to imply that any club team, GT or otherwise, isn't a great team with very talented players! But I'm guessing that club teams don't have facilities like Koskinen Stadium, huge crowds, televised games, team posters, academic advising, recruiting budgets, or other perks for the varsity teams. The clubs have a lot more work to do, such as their own fund raisers, arranging their own transportation, and even negotiating practice facilities with the school, though I imagine some schools have more support for club teams than others. There are probably some excellent club teams out there that can definitely compete with Div I schools. But generally speaking, it doesn't seem fair to ask club teams to compete against varsity teams given the probable huge discrepancies in resources. So the SELC sounds like a terrific solution to keep the playing field level.

[Lavabe]

...seems to be listed and ranked at the Laxpower website.Further,the various conferences appear with their component teams.In another ranking service,the Duke men's team is ranked #2 behind leader Syracuse.Link for Laxpower:
http://www.laxpower.com/index.php


Best regards.

At laxpower, the Duke women are ranked #7, but have the #1 strength of schedule.

[pratt '04]

Duke Men's Lax defeated UNC 17-6 in the first game of the ACC tournament this evening. Duke was up 5-3 at the half before really turning it on. Duke will play the winner of UVA/Maryland in the championship game on Sunday at 3:30. I think the game will be televised on Fox Sports Net.

[burnspbesq]

You've avoided discussion of ... lacrosse.

Rather than berate Title IX in discussing the main topic of this thread, a more relevant fact that should be acknowledged is that lacrosse, although the fastest growing sport (especially among women), has historically in pre-college levels, been well-developed on the east coast (mostly northeast). Georgia only recently made it a statewide varsity sport for both boys and girls. When growing up in Jersey, lacrosse was not recognized as a varsity sport, but over the border in NY State it was. Only relatively recently has the sport reached similar New York state levels in places, such as Georgia.

More relevant is the fact that historically, lacrosse folks developed their own conferences, some of which provided more strength of schedule than the traditional "BCS" kinds of conferences.

One such conference is the one that MOST "ACC" schools are part of, the Southeastern Lacrosse Conference, which includes: Miami, FSU, VaTech, GaTech, Wake, NCSU, and Clemson.

On the women's side, the nationally dominant Northwestern team is part of the American Lacrosse Conference, not the Big Ten (Eleven).

Staying on topic, FWIW, I am very thankful that lacrosse is available for girls. My daughter had tried a bunch of sports (gymnastics, swimming, soccer, volleyball, among others), didn't like most of them due to injuries, taunting, inexperienced/improper coaches, cost, lack of friends, schedules, a variety of factors. She also tries to balance academics, music, and other activities (sort of like her dad ). General interest in sports wasn't one of them. She just didn't find the one that she could enjoy that much, until lacrosse. I am glad the lacrosse organizations have put together these opportunities.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Lax is big in NJ high schools nowadays. Big rivalry game tomorrow, Ridgewood (my alma mater) at Mountain Lakes.

[burnspbesq]

Duke Men's Lax defeated UNC 17-6 in the first game of the ACC tournament this evening. Duke was up 5-3 at the half before really turning it on. Duke will play the winner of UVA/Maryland in the championship game on Sunday at 3:30. I think the game will be televised on Fox Sports Net.

That makes up for the women kicking away a five-goal halftime lead to lose to UVa.

[Lavabe]

Lax is big in NJ high schools nowadays. Big rivalry game tomorrow, Ridgewood (my alma mater) at Mountain Lakes.

Thanks for the good news. I was at nearby Pascack Vallley. Lacrosse was picking up steam, but still had a long way to go.
Cheers,
Lavabe

[burnspbesq]

Thanks for the good news. I was at nearby Pascack Vallley. Lacrosse was picking up steam, but still had a long way to go.
Cheers,
Lavabe

I was one of the founding members of the lax club at RHS, way back in the early 70s, 15 years before they made lax a varsity sport. We practiced four days a week at 7:00 a.m. for the whole school year, and the only competition we got was in the Fair Lawn summer league.

[burnspbesq]

Thanks for the good news. I was at nearby Pascack Vallley. Lacrosse was picking up steam, but still had a long way to go.
Cheers,
Lavabe

This seems to be Rivalry Weekend in boy's HS lax all across America. Georgetown Prep and Landon went four overtimes in the DC area today, and the biggest crosstown rivalry in SoCal, St. Margaret's vs. Serra down in San Juan Capistrano, was also today.

Uva took care of Murlund, 11-8 in the second ACC semi. But the Patriot League semis shredded all of the bracketology, as Colgate beat Navy and Bucknell beat Army. An Ivy League team -- most likely the loser of tomorrow's Brown-Princeton game -- probably just got knocked out of the NCAAs.

[DevilAlumna]

Sore spot? Yep, I have watched scholarship opportunities for my teenage sons disappear in wrestling and gymnastics as schools like Michigan State have discontinued the programs. My son cannot play high school volleyball, because the school discontinued that program due to Title IX and he must now drive 45 minutes each way just to practice with a club team. It was a nasty bloodbath watching the community fight over which boys sports programs had to be cut to allow for an equal number of girls teams. The bitterness still lasts.

Even though girls have been allowed to play on boys teams, boys are not allowed to play on girls teams. Many boys volleyball players have tried this, arguing that it is the only school sponsored volleyball team and they are entitled to equal opportunity to play volleyball. I guess equal doesn't always mean the same thing.

Why don't the schools give up some football scholarships so they can host a volleyball team? I mean, a football team only needs 11 guys on the field at once, right?

Oh, wait, that's just silly talk -- Of COURSE it's the women who are taking away all the opportunities for men in non-revenue sports...

[DevilAlumna]

On a seperate note, why does Duke have a "rowing" team?? Why is the girls sport called "rowing", but the guys sport is called "crew" ? I hope the new AD gets rid of this team, and add other sports (ie softball, etc)

It's not a gender thing. A group of rowers or a rowing team is the "Crew," what they do is row, therefore it is the sport of rowing. ("Everything else is just a game.")

As another poster pointed out, Duke is an East Coast school that should and does do very well in the sport. High school crew is uber-competitive, particularly in the mid-atlantic/philly/delaware corridor, as well as in Florida -- all areas that send lots of students to Duke.

My high school sends its top rowers to the varsity crews at Princeton, Brown, Yale, Harvard, Michigan -- all top national crews on the East Coast -- and since it turned varsity, several have gone to Duke. There's a good fit between the sort of student-athletes that row and want to go to Duke, and the sort of student-athletes that Duke wants in its classrooms and boats.

I don't mean to imply anything less of softball players, but I fail to see why crew is not deserving of varsity status and softball is?

[hughgs]

On a seperate note, why does Duke have a "rowing" team?? Why is the girls sport called "rowing", but the guys sport is called "crew" ? I hope the new AD gets rid of this team, and add other sports (ie softball, etc)

Why are other sports more important than crew? Where would you house them? How strong is the interest at the club level? How about some making an argument rather than blathering some random statement?

[BD80]

Why don't the schools give up some football scholarships so they can host a volleyball team? I mean, a football team only needs 11 guys on the field at once, right?

Oh, wait, that's just silly talk -- Of COURSE it's the women who are taking away all the opportunities for men in non-revenue sports...

Football is the REVENUE sport. To cut football is to cut the budget for the entire athletic department. Your solution is to cut the budget for everybody? Damn reality, so annoying at times.

Taking football as a given, please, how to proceed? This is where the judicial interpretation of Title IX has gone so far astray. The law itself does NOT require equal numbers of "spots", just equal opportunity to participate. This isn't "women vs men", this is women's advocates vs reason. Unfortunately, it has been argued that equal opportunity means equal NUMBERS of opportunities regardless of actual interest in participation.

In practice, athletic departments have been forced to cut men's teams to equalize the number of opportunities available. It is directly caused by Title IX.

Is it the women "taking away all the opportunities for men in non-revenue sports?" Not necessarily. It is the stubborn adherence to the concept that equal must be the same. If males and females are the same, let them compete on the same teams.

Frankly, women ARE taking away opportunities for men, by not demonstrating enough interest in sports! There simply are not enough women interested in sports to generate the creation of enough spots for women at the high school and college levels to balance the interest level of the men. Interpretation of Title IX is denying men opportunities in hope or expectation that the level of interest will become equal. Alice, meet Wonderland.

Since men and women are different, why not acknowledge that there is a different interest level in sports and provide relative equality in opportunities?

One simple, partial solution would be to exclude football from the equation, but then we have the appearance of inequality. Unfortunately, too many would rather actively deprive young men of opportunities than admit the truth. Let's talk silly, shall we?

I am NOT saying we should cut women's programs in any way, I am saying we should allow for greater numbers of men's programs where interest justifies.

[hughgs]

Frankly, women ARE ... not demonstrating enough interest in sports! There simply are not enough women interested in sports to generate the creation of enough spots for women at the high school and college levels to balance the interest level of the men.

I eagerly await your data to back up this point of your argument since everything hinges on it.