Serious question about basket defense:

[JStuart]

I am honestly confused and am looking for the expert opinion(s) usually found on this board.
I've watched Duke basketball since the late '50s as a child, and all through the Bubas-Foster-Early K years.
I thought that, given the offensive player with the ball within a few feet of the basket, the ballhandler could not push into an established defensive player without being called for a foul, and certainly couldn't expect to have a foul called on said defensive player, unless the defensive player initiated some contact in return that prevented a shot attempt (I'm not trying to quote the rule book here).
What I've been seeing (yes, my eyes are older) recently -as best evidenced by UNC's T. Hansbrough last night- is that the ball handler seems to have the right to bump into, or push aside any defensive players in their way, even if they are essentially well-established in their position.
Honestly, can someone please 'splain it to me? have the rules changed? Is there a special set of rules for Hansbrough? Has he ever fouled out of a game?
Thanks in advance,
JStuart, quite puzzled these days.

[willywoody]

no, no rule changes. it's just there is no enforcement of the rules. it's very similar to the jump shooter breaking the plane of verticality, jumping into the defender to draw a foul. how many times have you seen the shooter get called for a foul in that situation?

but those aren't the only rules that aren't enforced. how many times have you seen a player go in for a dunk or lay up and the defender contacts the offensive player? if the ball goes in the refs don't call a foul but if it's missed a foul is called.

how about the palming rule enforcement earlier this season? they were calling palming 2 or 3 times a game. haven't seen a call this whole tourney.

edit: they just called it on tenn.

[throatybeard]

The rules end up being the-rules-in-practice rather than their Platonic form in the rule book.

Some sports are worse about this than others. Even after MLB's crackdown on umpires, the strike zone--which probably involves the most basic set of rules in the game--is about as big as a shoe box somewhere in the vicinity of the batter's femur.

[CDu]

I am honestly confused and am looking for the expert opinion(s) usually found on this board.
I've watched Duke basketball since the late '50s as a child, and all through the Bubas-Foster-Early K years.
I thought that, given the offensive player with the ball within a few feet of the basket, the ballhandler could not push into an established defensive player without being called for a foul, and certainly couldn't expect to have a foul called on said defensive player, unless the defensive player initiated some contact in return that prevented a shot attempt (I'm not trying to quote the rule book here).
What I've been seeing (yes, my eyes are older) recently -as best evidenced by UNC's T. Hansbrough last night- is that the ball handler seems to have the right to bump into, or push aside any defensive players in their way, even if they are essentially well-established in their position.
Honestly, can someone please 'splain it to me? have the rules changed? Is there a special set of rules for Hansbrough? Has he ever fouled out of a game?
Thanks in advance,
JStuart, quite puzzled these days.

People (non-Duke fans, that is) used to say the same thing about Elton Brand. It's just the nature of the beast on the post. The lean-in is now a part of the offensive player's repertoire. The game has drifted in this direction over a long period of time, and that's how they call it nowadays.

[Zeke]

You know back in my day this use to be street ball. The palming, the contact, the lack of charge calls. NBA then the NCAA has become street ball - probably because that is where so many of the players learned to play. Can you imagine how it would be if the above rules were enforced- add another one: if the offensive player makes contact with the rim in the shot or follow through = goal tending. Then you'd be back to basket ball not street ball.

[feldspar]

no, no rule changes. it's just there is no enforcement of the rules. it's very similar to the jump shooter breaking the plane of verticality, jumping into the defender to draw a foul. how many times have you seen the shooter get called for a foul in that situation?

I've actually seen this one get no-called quite a few times during the tourney. I think the officials have been doing a great job with this rule.

It also seems like a point of emphasis with the NCAA going into the tourney is the ball handler using his off arm to hook the defender while driving past him. This is getting called quite a bit, especially in the low block.

[willywoody]

the few times i've seen the jump shooter jump into the defender this tourney have resulted in no calls which is better than the defender getting the foul which i saw happen too much during the regular season. and i'll add a caveat that i haven't watched but about 5 or 6 games this tourney.

[duke03]

What about traveling? I feel as though things like the "jump stop," etc. have evolved over time into somehow being legal.

[dukeENG2003]

I really scream at the TV every time an announcer says "that shouldn't have been a charge, he was standing under the basket". NOWHERE in the rule book does it say that a defensive player cannot establish defensive position under the basket. The NBA mentality (and that stupid "no charge" zone") has started all this, and even though its not a rule, somehow, people think it is, even announcers who I normally think do a great job are confusing this call nowadays.

Really, I think there aren't enough no-calls incharge/block situations in college basketball anymore. The concept of verticality is all but lost, and the concept of "who initiated the contact" seems to be a mystery to referees these days.

[JStuart]

Thanks, all; I thought it was just me, practicing my upcoming curmudgeonhood.
JStuart

[feldspar]

What about traveling? I feel as though things like the "jump stop," etc. have evolved over time into somehow being legal.

Ummm, the jump stop is legal.

[feldspar]

I really scream at the TV every time an announcer says "that shouldn't have been a charge, he was standing under the basket". NOWHERE in the rule book does it say that a defensive player cannot establish defensive position under the basket.

THANK YOU!!! I've heard this twice so far in the tournament, once during the Duke game.

Sports announcers are woefully un-informed when it comes to the rules.

[captmojo]

The so-called jump stop is by the book a traveling violation. With all due respect, once that second foot hits the floor it is still a second foot. The dribbler is only allowed one step without a dribble. What troubles me is the double dribble rule where you are now allowed to pick up the ball if you drop it following a dribble. Is this a judgment call? After both hands make contact, the dribble has stopped. Who says a player simply dropped it? t The game has changed a lot since I played.

[duke03]

Ummm, the jump stop is legal.

I am aware of this. I was pointing out that this tactic seems to have morphed over the years in terms of the extent to which it is legal. Often times players will drive toward the lane from the baseline, then leap into the paint, then leap toward the hoop while shooting. It essentially gives them an extra step, except the step is instead a leap, covering far more distance. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this seems to be something that's developed over the last several years -- I only recently recall seeing players get away with these flying leaps as being "jump stops."

[captmojo]

Maybe for another thread but the game changes somehow to adjust to the players when it should be vice versa. Michael Jordan killed whatever I liked about the NBA. Although it wasn't only him, to be fair. The rules changed because of money and it is still that way today. The big shots in the stands paid all this money for luxury boxes to see him play, not to watch him get called out on fouls et al. If he did it, call it!

[feldspar]

I am aware of this. I was pointing out that this tactic seems to have morphed over the years in terms of the extent to which it is legal. Often times players will drive toward the lane from the baseline, then leap into the paint, then leap toward the hoop while shooting. It essentially gives them an extra step, except the step is instead a leap, covering far more distance. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this seems to be something that's developed over the last several years -- I only recently recall seeing players get away with these flying leaps as being "jump stops."

As long as you're only making one step with the foot before landing on both feet, it doesn't matter how far you "leap."

Perhaps coaches/players these days have learned how to take full advantage of the rule without violating it. As far as I know, the rule hasn't changed in quite sometime.

[captmojo]

My statement doesn't relate to distance of a leap. It only is about the number of feet a player puts on the floor.

[feldspar]

My statement doesn't relate to distance of a leap. It only is about the number of feet a player puts on the floor.

Uhh, yeah it does. You said:

the step is instead a leap, covering far more distance.

You can "alight" off of one foot as you end your dribble, then land on both feet, then jump off of both feet. How far you travel while doing this legal action makes no difference.

[dockfan]

The "jump stop move" is not a travel. See Art. 2 from the NCAA Rules below. I think this must have been added after the move was invented and popularized (mid-1990's?).

Section 42. Jump Stop.
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving
or dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously
on both feet (no pivot foot).
b. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot
and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).
Art. 2. A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on
the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both
feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot
can be established as the pivot foot).

[Richard Berg]

I doubt it's a recent addition. I was taught the jump stop in elementary school P.E. class.