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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Inonehand View Post
    Hard screens? We constantly missed wide open three pointers! As for Nish at point, she was surrounded by better talent. Be honest with yourself, this team was not as talented as the teams with Bales, Harding, Currie, Beard and Schweitzer (later). They just weren't. Give the woman a chance and see if she can make it happen. I loved Gail a ton and I wish she hadn't left but she left a team that wasn't as good as her more recent products.

    Not surrounded with talent? Apparently EIGHT McDonald's All-Americans (and there others who were Parade All-Americans) isn't talent!!! The talent argument defies logic.

    Gail still won 28 games in 1999-2000 after losing six seniors and having no healthy point guard (forcing Georgia to play there). That team won Duke's first ACC Tournament title.

    The 2004-2005 team had Currie, a solid Mistie Bass, and that was about it. Everyone else was a freshman or a roleplayer. That team had lost Beard, Tillis, Krapohl, Hunter, and Harding (suspension)...and still won 31 games and made the Elite Eight.

    What Gail did was DEVELOP players so that when others gradauted, the younger players could step in. Duke lost Currie, Williams, and Foley, but still went 32-2 last year. Why? She developed Harding and Bales.

    Gail left a team that wasn't as good as her more recent products? More like Duke was left with a coach who isn't as good as Gail. Coaches are salivating over the talent Duke has. The problem is Duke does not have a coach who is smart enough or creative enough to design an offense to maximize the talent. Instead, she runs a Big Ten offense in the ACC.

  2. #42
    I actually agree with a lot of what's being said here on both sides of the debate. I personally agree that the offense was a bit unidimensional at times, so it'd be nice if we could see more than "ball goes in to Chante." But while it seemed that the offense (particularly from the outside) was stagnant at times, I saw glimpses of what's to come in the coming years. I actually like the speed that we have in Abby and Jasmine (especially Jasmine, since she's got some rockets on her feet), and Krystal was showing much better ability to back up Chante at the end of the season.

    One thing that I can't help but wonder is, at the beginning of the season, they talked a lot about the new training regimen that was put in place, increasing strength conditioning in all the players. Is it possible that this new emphasis on strength development threw off the guards' shots? Sure, they probably would have adjusted to it over time, but I'm just wondering. Otherwise, Bluedawg has posted a thorough analysis in some of the other threads about the changes in the overall system that could contribute to the decline in offensive production.

    I think that with the development of the players and additional time to get used to the system and the coach, we're going to see an improvement of the team over this past year (assuming Coach P can go out and get some good recruiting classes for the next couple of seasons). I wouldn't say things are bad, because (a) we've only seen one season post-Goestenkors and (b) we really did show improvement towards the end of the season.

    WRT the preseason rankings for next year, I don't place much value in them, as I really think they've got UMd ranked too high and UNC ranked too low (ESPN's got UMD at 2nd, but they lost too much this year, and while UNC lost a lot, I think they're set for the foreseeable future; 9 may be a bit low).

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. As much as the rumors of turmoil do trouble me, I'm still looking forward to next season.

    M.H.

  3. #43

    Salivating?

    CameronCrzy1974, or something like that, your stance is obvious. And deeply felt. No need to argue that. Bottom line, Gail left. She wasn't asked to leave. Nobody hoped she'd leave. She wanted to leave. She left a great job and a school that, I think, all of us love. Her choice. I personally believe Duke hired a very good replacement. She came into a job where her players were still longing for their old coach. Things weren't the same for them and it was not always a smooth situation. I believe, with time, Joanne will do a great job here. She deserves some support. We do have some very good players and I never said the cupboard was bare when she got here. However, I don't think Brenda, Sylvia, Geno, or Pat were salivating over our team. Their teams, their talent, was above ours. And a few others were as well. If it remains that way, then you have an arguement against Coach P. Right now, you simply have sour grapes.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Inonehand View Post
    CameronCrzy1974, or something like that, your stance is obvious. And deeply felt. No need to argue that. Bottom line, Gail left. She wasn't asked to leave. Nobody hoped she'd leave. She wanted to leave. She left a great job and a school that, I think, all of us love. Her choice. I personally believe Duke hired a very good replacement. She came into a job where her players were still longing for their old coach. Things weren't the same for them and it was not always a smooth situation. I believe, with time, Joanne will do a great job here. She deserves some support. We do have some very good players and I never said the cupboard was bare when she got here. However, I don't think Brenda, Sylvia, Geno, or Pat were salivating over our team. Their teams, their talent, was above ours. And a few others were as well. If it remains that way, then you have an arguement against Coach P. Right now, you simply have sour grapes.
    Sorry, but those excuses do not hold water.

    This isn't about Gail leaving. This is about McCallie being an inferior Xs and Os coach. She did less with more.

    UNC was in the same situation...losing an All-American post player and using a freshman point guard, plus losing a decorated post player. UNC did NOT have more individual talent, but the offense at UNC was designed to take advantage of the players' strengths. The offense at Duke was the only offense McCallie knows how to run.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHTorringjan View Post
    I think that with the development of the players and additional time to get used to the system and the coach, we're going to see an improvement of the team over this past year (assuming Coach P can go out and get some good recruiting classes for the next couple of seasons). I wouldn't say things are bad, because (a) we've only seen one season post-Goestenkors and (b) we really did show improvement towards the end of the season.

    M.H.
    I agree. The problem is that any coach who follows a legend, like G is at Duke, will have problems. Those opposed to Coach P will always be there regardless of what happened. If she had won a NC this year then it would have been G's championship and P would still have to prove herself.

    I think there is hope for the team under P. One year does not a trend make. I do have some strategy differences with her, but i do with every coach in every sport i watch. I do think she was too focused on the inside game and the team seemed to force the ball inside too much, but that may be part of the learning curve trying to adapt to a new system. Only time will tell.

    Are they on the verge of falling out of the elite status? Absolutely not! I still think the hire was a good one and I'm still a strong supporter of Coach P.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayHare View Post
    And since it seems to matter, I was only at 15 of the games this season.
    the reason I brought it up was it was beginning to look like some of the arguments against Coach P were coming from people who received their information 2nd, third or fourth hand or were basing it solely on statistics. Although stats have their place, I don't feel they give you as good an interpretation of the game as actually watching it.

    When its 2nd, third or fourth hand you are getting other people's biases [just like you do with my posts], and if you rely on stats you are only getting raw data. You don't get the information that seeing the flow of the game gives you.

    I hope my question didn't sound elitist, it was not intended to.

  7. #47

    Less with more?

    Quote Originally Posted by CamrnCrz1974 View Post
    Sorry, but those excuses do not hold water.

    Excuses?

    This isn't about Gail leaving. This is about McCallie being an inferior Xs and Os coach. She did less with more.

    Certainly entitled to your opinion, however I believe your assessment of our talent level this year compared to our competition's is quite out of whack. Watch the draft from this year through 2010 and I think you'll see how that plays out.

    UNC was in the same situation...losing an All-American post player and using a freshman point guard, plus losing a decorated post player. UNC did NOT have more individual talent, but the offense at UNC was designed to take advantage of the players' strengths. The offense at Duke was the only offense McCallie knows how to run.
    UNC had more talent. Any basketball person could see that. I'm pretty much through with this non-argument. For Duke's sake I'll simply say I'm right and you're wrong.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg View Post
    the reason I brought it up was it was beginning to look like some of the arguments against Coach P were coming from people who received their information 2nd, third or fourth hand or were basing it solely on statistics. Although stats have their place, I don't feel they give you as good an interpretation of the game as actually watching it.

    When its 2nd, third or fourth hand you are getting other people's biases [just like you do with my posts], and if you rely on stats you are only getting raw data. You don't get the information that seeing the flow of the game gives you.

    I hope my question didn't sound elitist, it was not intended to.
    I attended all the home games + the game in CH, do not have stats at my fingertips, but can state that my perception was that Duke was not a well-coached team and that players (except freshmen whom I hadn't seen play before) had taken a step backward as far as skill development. I wasn't very impressed with the "flow", if you could call it that, of the games. I went to every game hoping for improvement and plan to go to the games next year.

  9. #49

    Meant to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by Inonehand View Post
    UNC had more talent. Any basketball person could see that. I'm pretty much through with this non-argument. For Duke's sake I'll simply say I'm right and you're wrong.
    ...I hope I'm right and you're wrong.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Inonehand View Post
    UNC had more talent. Any basketball person could see that. I'm pretty much through with this non-argument. For Duke's sake I'll simply say I'm right and you're wrong.
    You are done with the argument because it doesn't hold water. Your decree that UNC has more talent isn't supported by anything other than you repeating your own conclusory assertion.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighfan View Post
    I attended all the home games + the game in CH, do not have stats at my fingertips, but can state that my perception was that Duke was not a well-coached team and that players (except freshmen whom I hadn't seen play before) had taken a step backward as far as skill development. I wasn't very impressed with the "flow", if you could call it that, of the games. I went to every game hoping for improvement and plan to go to the games next year.
    I agree that the team did seem somewhat disjointed at times but you would expect that with the drastic changes made in the style of play.

    I don't agree that "players had taken a step backward as far as skill development." I can offer Chante Black's year alone. Although Abby's shooting was down the other parts of her game really developed making her more of a major threat next year when Shelby comes in, who is a true point guard. Everyone raved over the development of Keturah Jackson and, although Coach G seemed to ignore her, she really blossomed with Coach

  12. #52

    Mastery of the English language

    Quote Originally Posted by CamrnCrz1974 View Post
    You are done with the argument because it doesn't hold water. Your decree that UNC has more talent isn't supported by anything other than you repeating your own conclusory assertion.
    Simply ask Sylvia, Geno, Brenda, Pat, etc. if they'd trade lineups. Like you, I don't know the answer for sure, but I'm relatively positive the answer is no.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg View Post
    I agree that the team did seem somewhat disjointed at times but you would expect that with the drastic changes made in the style of play.

    I don't agree that "players had taken a step backward as far as skill development." I can offer Chante Black's year alone. Although Abby's shooting was down the other parts of her game really developed making her more of a major threat next year when Shelby comes in, who is a true point guard. Everyone raved over the development of Keturah Jackson and, although Coach G seemed to ignore her, she really blossomed with Coach
    And can I add Joy onto that list? She really worked on her game, and is trying to get her toughness and shooting all into one package. I was particularly impressed with her all through the season.

    M.H.

  14. #54
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    OK...I should have excepted Keturah from my statement to the effect that it looked like the veterans had taken a step backward this year. Since we hardly saw KJ play during G's last year, we really didn't know much about her. So...yes, I'd say that this year was an improvement for her.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHTorringjan View Post
    And can I add Joy onto that list? She really worked on her game, and is trying to get her toughness and shooting all into one package. I was particularly impressed with her all through the season.

    M.H.
    Absoultely. I did not mean to leave Joy off...thanks for pointing that out. I saw a lot of growth in her game.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighfan View Post
    OK...I should have excepted Keturah from my statement to the effect that it looked like the veterans had taken a step backward this year. Since we hardly saw KJ play during G's last year, we really didn't know much about her. So...yes, I'd say that this year was an improvement for her.
    Keturah had more minutes this year (16 per game). But she shot 42 percent from the floor, 50 percent from the free throw line, and couldn't hit a jumper. She had double the amount of turnovers as compared to assists and averaged 4 points and 3 rebounds per game. She was a good defender, but she still had trouble with the better players in the ACC.

    Last year, Keturah played 8 minutes per game, shot 41 percent from the floor and 61 percent from the line. She averaged 2 points and 1.8 rebounds per game. Basically, her minutes just doubled.

    The only main difference (other doubling her numbers because she got more minutes) were big increases in steals and turnovers.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg View Post
    I don't agree that "players had taken a step backward as far as skill development." I can offer Chante Black's year alone. Although Abby's shooting was down the other parts of her game really developed making her more of a major threat next year when Shelby comes in, who is a true point guard. Everyone raved over the development of Keturah Jackson and, although Coach G seemed to ignore her, she really blossomed with Coach
    See my comments re Keturah...that isn't improvement. That is an increase in minutes for which the numbers doubled. She only had significantly more steals...and offset them with significantly more turnovers.

    Chante's improvement came last year, when she sat out. All she did was work on her shooting with the staff.

  18. #58
    Kj was the beneficiary of more playing time...enough said. Chante did not play the year before so of course she looked better. She still can't finish against elite teams, has questionable hands, waits too long to make a move, and has no signature move to the basket but yet is our featured offensive threat. Every good team could read our offense and defend accordingly.

    Our movement on offense was non existant. Al Brown was supposed to be a big persons coach extraordinare but I can't see it. The lack of screens is in direct proportion to Abby's shooting woes. Our offense only works against teams that are inferior. When we struggled on offense there was no plan b.

    coach p let officials initimidate her. She let bad call after bad call just roll by. The momentum we lost comming into the start of the second half in several games was uncalled for. This team was never really inspired to play for her. This team actually gave up several times this year in a couple of games when it was out of hand.

    This coach does not like to recruit and openly admits it. This should have been an easy transition...she had alot to work with.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by CamrnCrz1974 View Post
    Keturah had more minutes this year (16 per game). But she shot 42 percent from the floor, 50 percent from the free throw line, and couldn't hit a jumper. She had double the amount of turnovers as compared to assists and averaged 4 points and 3 rebounds per game. She was a good defender, but she still had trouble with the better players in the ACC.
    Well, one thing that I agree with here is the free-throw shooting. That's definitely the big thing that they need to work on as a team for next year, as it was always an adventure watching them go to the line. As for the PT argument, I'll agree that she got more playing time, and that the raw numbers don't necessarily show improvement, but (a) doesn't the fact that she got more playing time mean that she showed improvement in practice, (b) the players all voted her the most improved player at the beginning of the season, and (c) I think she had more heady play, and many of the better players that she had trouble defending, pretty much anyone whose name wasn't Lindsey Harding would have had trouble defending. I'm sticking with KJ as greatly improved.

    M.H.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by fadero View Post
    Kj was the beneficiary of more playing time...enough said. Chante did not play the year before so of course she looked better. She still can't finish against elite teams, has questionable hands, waits too long to make a move, and has no signature move to the basket but yet is our featured offensive threat. Every good team could read our offense and defend accordingly.

    Our movement on offense was non existant. Al Brown was supposed to be a big persons coach extraordinare but I can't see it. The lack of screens is in direct proportion to Abby's shooting woes. Our offense only works against teams that are inferior. When we struggled on offense there was no plan b.

    coach p let officials initimidate her. She let bad call after bad call just roll by. The momentum we lost comming into the start of the second half in several games was uncalled for. This team was never really inspired to play for her. This team actually gave up several times this year in a couple of games when it was out of hand.

    This coach does not like to recruit and openly admits it. This should have been an easy transition...she had alot to work with.
    I'm really not sure what to say to you besides, wow, that's a bunch of negative comments there. :-\

    I disagree with your statement about Chante not being able to finish against elite teams (which, I'm not sure if she played a team by herself). She scored in double digits in the majority of our games against top-five ranked teams (although admittedly, she did have trouble rebounding in many of those games), and led the team in scoring in at least a few of those games. Now, again, this may be because of the "Get the ball to Chante" offense, but I think it shows that she can produce against good post players. Now, when she's double- or triple-teamed, she had problems, but really, who wouldn't? It's kind of the point.

    We've addressed the offense issue. Hopefully, she'll diversify a bit, and I did notice the lack of movement in a lot of games. Not sure what that was about, but I'm certain that they're working on it.

    As for the intimidation by the refs, you sound like a State fan criticizing Herb Sendek for not being more fiery. She questioned calls that she disagreed with, and I remember seeing her talking to the refs many times about calls that they missed or that she thought should have gone the other way. And while it's not necessarily a good indicator of my point, I'd like to point out that she also did not hurt us by arguing herself into a technical.

    We've addressed the recruiting issue, and we all hope that's changed.

    Anyway, try looking at the positives for a bit. Lighten up and enjoy the game.

    M.H.

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