Coach's Summers

[dukie8]

"We haven't signed a big man in forever," they moaned. "Uhhh, what about the #1 big man in the 2005 class in McRoberts, what about the #2 PF in the 2007 class in Singler, what about a top 20 big man in the 2009 class in Plumlee?"

whose #1? i'd say that hansbrough is a tick better than the guy we got. what about the "#1" pg from that class as well? i think that 2005 rankings should make it very clear that they can be very off. 2005 had to have been one of the worst classes of all-time but that is another discussion.

who was listing singler as a power forward??? he was listed as a sf or wf in everything that i saw and anyone who listed him as a pf simply was wrong because his game is anything but that of a pf (goduke lists him at 6'8" and 220 after a year in college, which hardly is the body of a pf). it really is unfair to him how much he gets stuck having to play the 5 and cover guys like hansbrough because he just isn't big enough to do that effectively. so despite your position creation, 2007 was yet another year of not bringing in a big man. going back to the 2002 class, we have brought in 2 legitimate big guys(shelden and mcbob) despite having the glaring need for 1 and having the marketing pitch be "you can basically play from day 1." as has been pointed out on numerous occasions on here, the problem is not only that we aren't getting the few targets that we have gone after but, even worse, several aren't even giving us the time of day and never even took a campus visit. it is shocking how some people on here continue to believe that recruiting is as good as it always has been notwithstanding an ever growing pile of data that suggests otherwise.

[dukie8]

agreed. Should USA come out of this with a gold medal, not only will we hopefully see a replay of last summer (i.e. Kobe and Lebron talking about how great it is play for K), but it allows K to go into a living room and say "Hi recruit X, your game reminds me a lot of Kobe Bryant, and I see you filling Kobe's role on my team."

why couldn't k do that now? he has been coaching the team for a year. moreover, why couldn't he say that even if he had no affiliation with the olympic team? it's not like the way kobe or lebron plays is some big secret.

[gvtucker]

whose #1? i'd say that hansbrough is a tick better than the guy we got. what about the "#1" pg from that class as well? i think that 2005 rankings should make it very clear that they can be very off. 2005 had to have been one of the worst classes of all-time but that is another discussion.

who was listing singler as a power forward??? he was listed as a sf or wf in everything that i saw and anyone who listed him as a pf simply was wrong because his game is anything but that of a pf (goduke lists him at 6'8" and 220 after a year in college, which hardly is the body of a pf). it really is unfair to him how much he gets stuck having to play the 5 and cover guys like hansbrough because he just isn't big enough to do that effectively. so despite your position creation, 2007 was yet another year of not bringing in a big man. going back to the 2002 class, we have brought in 2 legitimate big guys(shelden and mcbob) despite having the glaring need for 1 and having the marketing pitch be "you can basically play from day 1." as has been pointed out on numerous occasions on here, the problem is not only that we aren't getting the few targets that we have gone after but, even worse, several aren't even giving us the time of day and never even took a campus visit. it is shocking how some people on here continue to believe that recruiting is as good as it always has been notwithstanding an ever growing pile of data that suggests otherwise.

Class of 2007: no power forwards or centers. (I'd put Singler in the shooting forward category also.)

Class of 2006: Zoubek was listed as the #7 center in the country. Thomas was listed as the #4 power forward.

Class of 2005: Boateng was the #3 center. McRoberts was the #1 power forward. Boykin was the #20 power forward.

Class of 2004: no power forwards or centers.

Class of 2003: no power forwards or centers.

Class of 2002: Shelden Williams was the #3 power forward. Shavlik Randolph was the #6 power forward. Michael Thompson was the #5 center.

That's a bit more than 2 legitimate big guys.

As noted before, we've consistently had excellent recruiting classes. Could we have used Monroe this year and Patterson last year? Sure. And having Zoubek injured made it doubly difficult. Such is life.

The myth that Coach K could just select who he wanted was just that--a myth. We've recruited solid talent for years. There have been very long periods of time when we haven't had post players. This isn't a new thing. Heck, our starting center one year--John Smith--was a starting guard another year. That final four team had no legitimate post players, and that was 20 years ago, when there were many, many more post players in college basketball.

There was a long period of time when it was considered that a post player could NEVER thrive in Duke's offense. Fortunately, Elton Brand came and destroyed that myth. Coach K tailored our offense completely around Elton, and he was the player of the year. Now, we're starting to hear it again, from even some Duke fans, even though we're only two years removed from having a dominant post player, Shelden Williams, in our offense. Now I can see what opposing fans and coaches would say that about Duke, as negative recruiting is something that will always be around.

But I amazed that Duke fans can be that short sighted.

[Hot Route]

There was a long period of time when it was considered that a post player could NEVER thrive in Duke's offense. Fortunately, Elton Brand came and destroyed that myth. Coach K tailored our offense completely around Elton, and he was the player of the year. Now, we're starting to hear it again, from even some Duke fans, even though we're only two years removed from having a dominant post player, Shelden Williams, in our offense. Now I can see what opposing fans and coaches would say that about Duke, as negative recruiting is something that will always be around.

But I amazed that Duke fans can be that short sighted.

First of all, Coach K may have centered the offense around Brand during that 1999 season, but we still wouldn't give him the ball with the national championship on the line. I've never heard a good explanation of that one.

Since 99, we have always had ONE solid post player up until these past two seasons...Brand, Boozer, Williams. Having ONE solid post player is really not enough if you want to make a run in March though(Memphis had 3, Kansas had 4.) Where are the two or three solid, athletic big men that other schools seem to land?

People have spoken about how McRoberts was the #1 PF, Michael Thompson #5 C, etc... Part of being a great recruiter is to predict just how good a high school player will be when he gets to college. I don't care where scout.com has our recruits projected, I care if they show up in Durham, play physical, score, and rebound! I hope we can recruit more bigs. We desperately need them. If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Elton Brand was not very highly-touted out of high school. Wasn't Chris Burgess supposed to be the man in that class?

To conclude, in order for us to compete for a national title, we HAVE to have big men. I long for the days when we can dump the ball down low and have a player make a legitimate post move and score the basketball.

[Turtleboy]

If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Elton Brand was not very highly-touted out of high school. Wasn't Chris Burgess supposed to be the man in that class?

Prepstars had him at #3, behind Tracy McGrady and Lamar Odom, and ahead of Battier and Burgess.

http://www.prepstars.com/archives/pasttop10.jsp

(Scroll down.)

[devildeac]

First of all, Coach K may have centered the offense around Brand during that 1999 season, but we still wouldn't give him the ball with the national championship on the line. I've never heard a good explanation of that one.

Since 99, we have always had ONE solid post player up until these past two seasons...Brand, Boozer, Williams. Having ONE solid post player is really not enough if you want to make a run in March though(Memphis had 3, Kansas had 4.) Where are the two or three solid, athletic big men that other schools seem to land?

People have spoken about how McRoberts was the #1 PF, Michael Thompson #5 C, etc... Part of being a great recruiter is to predict just how good a high school player will be when he gets to college. I don't care where scout.com has our recruits projected, I care if they show up in Durham, play physical, score, and rebound! I hope we can recruit more bigs. We desperately need them. If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Elton Brand was not very highly-touted out of high school. Wasn't Chris Burgess supposed to be the man in that class?

To conclude, in order for us to compete for a national title, we HAVE to have big men. I long for the days when we can dump the ball down low and have a player make a legitimate post move and score the basketball.

Perhaps we did not get him the ball because:

1. we could not get him the ball or
2. coach's decision or
3. his 'antics' the night or two before or
4. the physical 'abuse' he took from u-cons post player/s during the game or
5. any other guesses/theories?

[Karl Beem]

Perhaps we did not get him the ball because:

1. we could not get him the ball or
2. coach's decision or
3. his 'antics' the night or two before or
4. the physical 'abuse' he took from u-cons post player/s during the game or
5. any other guesses/theories?

We were 90 feet from the basket.

[gvtucker]

First of all, Coach K may have centered the offense around Brand during that 1999 season, but we still wouldn't give him the ball with the national championship on the line. I've never heard a good explanation of that one.

Instead, we gave the ball to the person that was our hottest shooter and our best player that game.

Brand had the one major flaw of his college career exposed that night--he couldn't pass out of a double team yet. Battier was left open under the basket continually, and Brand just couldn't see him. We went with our best option, and it didn't happen to work. Such is life.

Since 99, we have always had ONE solid post player up until these past two seasons...Brand, Boozer, Williams. Having ONE solid post player is really not enough if you want to make a run in March though(Memphis had 3, Kansas had 4.)

Yeah, it's too bad that 2001 team couldn't make much of a run in March. And that 2004 barely made it to the Final Four.

People have spoken about how McRoberts was the #1 PF, Michael Thompson #5 C, etc... Part of being a great recruiter is to predict just how good a high school player will be when he gets to college. I don't care where scout.com has our recruits projected, I care if they show up in Durham, play physical, score, and rebound! I hope we can recruit more bigs. We desperately need them. If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Elton Brand was not very highly-touted out of high school. Wasn't Chris Burgess supposed to be the man in that class?

Yeah, recruiting rankings aren't perfect. And sometimes it works for us, sometimes it doesn't. Again, that is the way it has ALWAYS been. In our first great class, we desperately wanted one of the top wings in the class, Curtis Hunter. He was more highly ranked than Johnny Dawkins, the true centerpiece. He decided to go to UNC instead. We gave a late scholarship offer to another, much lower ranked player--David Henderson. David proved to be much, much better than Hunter. And that became a great team. Was Coach K some genius of a recruiter back then, taking Henderson? Well, it was a bit skill, and a bit luck that we were able to land Henderson.

There are stories like that throughout Coach K's tenure. High school superstars that we didn't land, and modest high school players (well, modest for ACC and D-1 standards) that turned out to be key players for us.

Things haven't changed. Y'all are just paying closer attention now.

To conclude, in order for us to compete for a national title, we HAVE to have big men. I long for the days when we can dump the ball down low and have a player make a legitimate post move and score the basketball.

Jay Bilas, Christian Laettner, Casey Sanders, John Smith.

NONE of these guys were the type of big man that you envision. All of em started center for Final Four teams, two of them played for NCAA champions. The evidence is there that your statement in incorrect. (And nothing against guys like Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, and Shelden Williams--they all came close to championships, to be sure, and they are all outstanding post players. But none of them won the national championship, although they all played in a Final Four.)

[dkbaseball]

our starting center one year--John Smith--was a starting guard another year.

Well, you were in school then so maybe you're remembering better than I, but my recollection is that Smith started at center in his sophomore year, '86-'87, and then lost the job to Brickey the next year. In his senior year the frontcourt was Ferry, Brickey and Laettner. The starting guards for those three years were never anybody else but Amaker, Strickland, Snyder and Henderson. Or so I recall.

[dukie8]

Instead, we gave the ball to the person that was our hottest shooter and our best player that game.

Brand had the one major flaw of his college career exposed that night--he couldn't pass out of a double team yet. Battier was left open under the basket continually, and Brand just couldn't see him. We went with our best option, and it didn't happen to work. Such is life..

how was langdon our "hottest" shooter? he was 3-9 against mich st and 7-15 against uconn. brand was 7-10 and 5-8 in the same games. our best option was to let langdon, who spent 4 years never being able to take his man off the dribble, take probably the best on-ball defender in the nation off the dribble??? we can all lament about how that game turned about but please stop with the revisionist history that that play was our best option. langdon was the senior and, for better or for worse, k lets his seniors decide the big games (don't even get me started over when collins decided to take matters into his own hands in '94).

Jay Bilas, Christian Laettner, Casey Sanders, John Smith.

NONE of these guys were the type of big man that you envision. All of em started center for Final Four teams, two of them played for NCAA champions. The evidence is there that your statement in incorrect. (And nothing against guys like Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, and Shelden Williams--they all came close to championships, to be sure, and they are all outstanding post players. But none of them won the national championship, although they all played in a Final Four.)

laettner isn't the type of big man people envision? please. if plumlee has a similar game people are going to be very very pleased. someone like laettner, who attacked the basket from close range and either took (and hopefully scored) a high percentage shot or got fouled is EXACTLY what we need. having someone like that on the floor would go very far in preventing the jack-a-3 offense that we usually resort to at the end of each season in the big games. also, i think that people would be more than happy with a sanders in the starting lineup if a boozer was waiting in the wings to come in as maybe the best 6th man in the history of the final 4. if only we could be so lucky.

also, just to be clear, boozer DID win a nc (and started in the nc game as well).

[gvtucker]

also, just to be clear, boozer DID win a nc (and started in the nc game as well).

Just to be clear, while Boozer did indeed win a national championship, the starting center in that championship game was Casey Sanders. Boozer came off the bench.

how was langdon our "hottest" shooter? he was 3-9 against mich st and 7-15 against uconn. brand was 7-10 and 5-8 in the same games. our best option was to let langdon, who spent 4 years never being able to take his man off the dribble, take probably the best on-ball defender in the nation off the dribble??? we can all lament about how that game turned about but please stop with the revisionist history that that play was our best option.

That isn't revisionist history. That is a valid opinion. It certainly worked at the end of the first half, when Langdon hit a 3 pointer over that same defender and got fouled for a 4 point play.

[dukie8]

Just to be clear, while Boozer did indeed win a national championship, the starting center in that championship game was Casey Sanders. Boozer came off the bench.

i'm not sure what your point is. your previous post claimed that boozer did NOT win a nc, which clearly is incorrect. now you trying to clarify something that wasn't in question. for the record, boozer played 30 minutes and sanders played 10 minutes against arizona. are you now somehow trying to infer that sanders had a bigger impact on that team and that game than boozer? sanders was nothing more than a backup center who averaged 10.7 minutes a game that year.

[MChambers]

Well, you were in school then so maybe you're remembering better than I, but my recollection is that Smith started at center in his sophomore year, '86-'87, and then lost the job to Brickey the next year. In his senior year the frontcourt was Ferry, Brickey and Laettner. The starting guards for those three years were never anybody else but Amaker, Strickland, Snyder and Henderson. Or so I recall.

Smith never started at guard. Brickey sort of played center in 87-88 and 88-89, with Ferry playing the PF, and started at the 3 his senior season.

[Channing]

why couldn't k do that now? he has been coaching the team for a year. moreover, why couldn't he say that even if he had no affiliation with the olympic team? it's not like the way kobe or lebron plays is some big secret.

My post was in response to K v. Roy and their summers. Roy is making visits now, but K is dealing with team USA. As for your second point - Im sure he could make that point, as can every coach. However, it lends credibility to his pitch if he can say that he has coached these guys, and worked closely with them in developing a team

My point is that coach K coaching team USA is not necessarily going to put us behind UNC in recruiting, because it will add an additional weapon for K to use when making his pitch.

[JasonEvans]

Dukie8,

I think GV's point was that when you wrote the following...

boozer DID win a nc (and started in the nc game as well).

...you were incorrect as Boozer was not the starter in that game.

By the way, you were correct to point out Boozer's national championship in 2001.

It feels like this back and forth about recruiting big men has happened a million times on the board and I imagine we all are getting tired of it. To sum up--

One side says Duke's recruiting has been poor lately (especially when it comes to big men) and they point to Duke's lack of succcess in the NCAA tournament since 2004 as evidence to prove their point.

The other side says we have been recruiting fine (pointing out the rankings of Duke's recruits in recent years) but that we have just run into a string of back luck (both on the court in the NCAAs and in how some recruits have turned out).

Am I missing anything? Unless somsone has something really new to this debate to add, maybe we should give it a little bit of a rest. I mean, I cannot imagine that any of us are going to change each other's minds anytime soon, ya know?

--Jason "if Duke wins big with Thomas and Zoubek in the post next year though, I think then we will know something about who wass right and who was wrong in this debate" Evans

[dukie8]

It feels like this back and forth about recruiting big men has happened a million times on the board and I imagine we all are getting tired of it. To sum up--

One side says Duke's recruiting has been poor lately (especially when it comes to big men) and they point to Duke's lack of succcess in the NCAA tournament since 2004 as evidence to prove their point.

The other side says we have been recruiting fine (pointing out the rankings of Duke's recruits in recent years) but that we have just run into a string of back luck (both on the court in the NCAAs and in how some recruits have turned out).

Am I missing anything? Unless somsone has something really new to this debate to add, maybe we should give it a little bit of a rest. I mean, I cannot imagine that any of us are going to change each other's minds anytime soon, ya know?

i think that pretty much sums it up and it has gotten to the point of "tastes great. less filling." however, my guess is that it will continue until duke gets back to the ff because, even if duke were to sign the next patterson or monroe, if the team loses early in the ncaat, people will argue that they were the wrong big guy(s). if duke gets to the ff without a top big guy, then the argument that we can't win with one becomes moot.

[devildeac]

We were 90 feet from the basket.

Yes we were, but, IIRC, the last play was Trajan dribbling into traffic and getting fouled, oops, I mean called for travelling. Anyone else recall correctly?

[Hot Route]

Perhaps we did not get him the ball because:

1. we could not get him the ball or
2. coach's decision or
3. his 'antics' the night or two before or
4. the physical 'abuse' he took from u-cons post player/s during the game or
5. any other guesses/theories?

Wouldn't it be nice if we would "abuse" opposing teams' post players? I can't remember the last time we have done that! When is the last time we have been deep at the PF/C position?

Listen, I'm all about having guards (quick ones would be nice), but the paint is where the higher percentage shots are taken. It is plain to see that we desperately need help down there. Thank God for Kyle Singler who was willing to play out of position for the sake of helping the TEAM. I love the kid. Now let's go get some bigs so Kyle can play his natural position.

[Hot Route]

Yes we were, but, IIRC, the last play was Trajan dribbling into traffic and getting fouled, oops, I mean called for travelling. Anyone else recall correctly?

He did get fouled, but I don't blame the officials for not ending the title game on the free throw line (much like what happened this year at the end of regulation.)