Kansas + Chalmers = Sleazy

[JasonEvans]

Someone please correct me on this, but I've heard UNC fans cry foul with Duhon's recruitment in a similar fashion - that his mother got a job through Duke upon moving to Durham? I hope this is not true. Just want to get the scoop in light of this thread.

Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.

It is impossible to regulate this kind of thing. Heck, a powerful program probably has plenty of supporters who could easily funnel $50 or $60k jobs to the parents of recruits. Those parents would not even have to leave their hometown if they wanted. Frankly, it is impossible to police any of this...

...which is why I think honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Clearly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way.

--Jason "if it smells fishy, I say stay away!" Evans

[JasonEvans]

By that definition Duke has a deeply entrenched tradition of disgruntled players transferring.


Here's a better one :
tradition
(trə-dĭsh'ən) pronunciation

n.

1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
2.
1. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
2. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See synonyms at heritage.
3. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
4. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
5. Law. Transfer of property to another.

Here are many more, none of which are "something has that happened in the past." Even remotely. Perhaps you are thinking of "previous incident?"

I love it! I can tell when I am winning an argument when the opposition resorts to parsing words that have very little to do with the meaning of the rest of the arguement. As if "tradition" really matters in this. Ha!

As I noted, Bill Self learned about hiring the parents of recruits from his time at Kansas with Larry Brown and Ed Manning. Self learned it at Kansas from a former Kansas coach.

But if you want to needlessly nit pick, fine, it is not a tradition. It is "something that has happened in the past at Kansas." Putting it that way, I suddenly think there is nothing wrong with it. Thanks!

--Jason "sarcasm mode off" Evans

[Troublemaker]

Then I am guessing you would be fine with giving the family of elite recruits a payoff to attend a school-- like $60-grand perhaps. Because giving them a bogus job (which is what you say you would be ok with) is exactly the same thing, isn't it? Explain the difference in giving a bogus job to the parent of a recruit and just giving money to that family.

Two differences:
(1) Mr. Chalmers has to provide his services to the university. I'm assuming he actually goes to work and performs his job. In my analogy, I do make my friends' kids do work for me; I don't just straight out give them money.
(2) One is against NCAA rules and one isn't. You have every right to criticize KU for violating the spirit of the rule if that's what you think they're doing, of course.

Your real-world example of "connections" is not appropriate because we are talking about amateur athletics rules, not the real world. In amateur athletics and the NCAA, players are not paid for what they do. We can have a long argument about the merits of that (and I think it is silly in this day of big-money athletics) but that is how the system works. Funneling cash to the family of a recruit is wrong...

Right, players can not be paid, which you and I both agree is unfair. But, as you said, that's how the system works. Well, within that same system, players' parents are allowed to get jobs with the university. Both are technicalities of the same system, and KU is abiding by both. I can't criticize KU for legally hiring the parent just because it is similar in spirit to something that is illegal by way of a rule I don't even agree with.

[JasonEvans]

I don't think I ever implied that what KU did was against the rules. It quite clearly is not.

I think it is sleazy.
I think it looks very unethical.
I would hate for my school to do the same thing.
It changes my opinion of Self and the current KU program a bit to know they did this.

But I am not saying they should go on probation or anything like that. I am sorry if I ever gave that impression.

--Jason "legislating against this kind of thing would be impossible and probaly unfair-- but that does not make it ehtical" Evans

[Turtleboy]

I love it! I can tell when I am winning an argument when the opposition resorts to parsing words that have very little to do with the meaning of the rest of the arguement. As if "tradition" really matters in this. Ha!

I have no idea what you mean by "opposition," or "winning an argument," although it is telling that you consider yourself to be some kind of combatant here, but you are the one who insisted on the definition of "tradition." If it had little to do with the matter, why assert the false definition? Why claim it is a tradition in the first place?

This is your post :

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

It simply has not been shown to be true, in this thread at least, that KU has a "long tradition" of such behavior, the very redundancy of the phrase notwithstanding.

[Lotus000]

I'm convinced that this type of thing goes on at every major DI school. I've seen Blue Chips too many times at this point.

Also, since when did we at DBR resort to using Gregg Doyel as a source of empirical data/information? I sort of just died a little on the inside; that man's a jerkface.

[Chard]

Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.

That sounds much more "sleezy" than what Kansas did. I didn't know that tidbit until now.

[blazindw]

Just as you have coaches who will hire the parents of their recruits in order to woo them to play for them, sometimes that doesn't work. For example, DaJuan Wagner's father, Milt Wagner, was hired by Louisville as an assistant coach of some sort when they were recruiting DaJuan (I think Milt played for Louisville, but it was still viewed as a ploy to get DaJuan to commit). DaJuan, who was the Lebron of the 2001 class (played in the McDs AA game with Daniel Ewing in Cameron), ended up committing to Memphis. This is not the only case, just the most glaring example. For every situation where a parent is hired in some way to woo a kid, there is another situation where the kid ends up going someplace else anyway.

[dukie8]

Just as you have coaches who will hire the parents of their recruits in order to woo them to play for them, sometimes that doesn't work. For example, DeJuan Wagner's father, Milt Wagner, was hired by Louisville as an assistant coach of some sort when they were recruiting DeJuan (I think Milt played for Louisville, but it was still viewed as a ploy to get DeJuan to commit). DeJuan, who was the Lebron of the 2001 class (played in the McDs AA game with Daniel Ewing in Cameron), ended up committing to Memphis. This is not the only case, just the most glaring example. For every situation where a parent is hired in some way to woo a kid, there is another situation where the kid ends up going someplace else anyway.

memphis -- not louisville -- hired milt and, lo and behold, dejuan wound up at memphis:

Calipari has been criticized widely for hiring Milt Wagner as an administrative assistant and offering a scholarship to Barclay in order to attract Dajuan. Though Milt lacks a college degree, he comes with an extensive basketball background for a fairly low-level job. And Barclay is a legitimate player.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-81891453.html

barclay was dejuan's best friend in high school so calipari went for the 3-person package deal. it's safe to conclude that the sleaze was on both benches last night...

please provide some examples of dads who get jobs but their kids wind up elsewhere because i think that that is very rare -- the kid and father go together most of the time.

[blazindw]

memphis -- not louisville -- hired milt and, lo and behold, dejuan wound up at memphis:



http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-81891453.html

barclay was dejuan's best friend in high school so calipari went for the 3-person package deal. it's safe to conclude that the sleaze was on both benches last night...

please provide some examples of dads who get jobs but their kids wind up elsewhere because i think that that is very rare -- the kid and father go together most of the time.

I must have got that story mixed up...I do know he played at Louisville. However, there are stories of players who go to opposite places as their dads who got jobs there. I couldn't provide detailed examples of such because they usually aren't big stories (no one cries foul when a coach recruits a parent to get a kid, only to have the kid end up elsewhere), but I'm pretty sure it has happened before. Some players may do that because of the pressure they may feel playing on a team with their father as a coach.

[jma4life]

Jason, let me ask you a simple question.

According to your logic, Kansas could have just as easily (and more discreetly) had a friend of Bill Self or a booster give Chalmer's dad an equivalent pay check under the radar.

Similarly, there is no way that Kansas could not have found a great paying job from a Kansas booter for the Chalmers family. The fact that he hired his dad as an assistant must mean something, no?

Plus, if according to your logic, the Duhon mother thing is more similar to an unreported booster giving a player money, then there is no question that the Duhon situation is sleazier.

Listen, if we start seeing Kansas coaches change every four years with new recruiting classes, we can talk. Right now, this is at worst Bill Self hooking up a possibly slightly under qualified parent, whereas for the Duhon situation, it is at worst Coach K requesting that a friend hook up a potentially woefully under qualified (I don't know Duhon's mom but I know Chalmer's dad was a successful coach- correct me if I'm wrong on Duhon's mother) parent.

Using your logic, the degree of shadiness isn't close. The Duhon situation takes the cake.

[Scorp4me]

I may be ignorant here, but finding a job for a single mom to move close and watch her son play basketball doesn't seem like anything wrong to me. Hiring a parent to make sure the kids go to class at the school where you are recruiting the kid seems just a bit shady. Now you can spin it all you want and maybe I'm over simplfying the situation. Heck maybe I'm even viewing it with dark blue glasses. But that's the way I see it and I doubt anyone will change my opinion.

[jma4life]

scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

[Acymetric]

scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Is that actually how much Duhon's mom got payed?

[Chicago 1995]

Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.

It is impossible to regulate this kind of thing. Heck, a powerful program probably has plenty of supporters who could easily funnel $50 or $60k jobs to the parents of recruits. Those parents would not even have to leave their hometown if they wanted. Frankly, it is impossible to police any of this...

...which is why I think honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Clearly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way.

--Jason "if it smells fishy, I say stay away!" Evans

If you are true to your sig quote, you should be very upset about Vivian Harper's employment.

I think it's much, much fishier to have a friend of the coach and a booster of the program hiring the relocating player of a parent tor work in the private sector -- a situtation you admit is almost impossible to regulate -- than it is for a public university athletic department regulated by the NCAA to hire the parent of a player. I don't understand why it's worse for the University to hire someone than a booster. One's going to be pretty heavily regulated. The other is how Chris Duhon's mom was employed.

This thread running down Kansas is so umbecoming to Duke, given Vivien Harper's employment. You say "honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety" and that "[c]learly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way." If the employment of Mario Chalmers' father meanst hat KU is not worried about avoiding the appearance of impropriety, then Vivien Harper's employment means Duke isn't either. You might not think there's anything wrong with Harper's employment, but it's about appearances. Judging from the heat Duke gets all around the country for that hiring, I think it appeared to be pretty dicey. Hence, we should have avoided that appearance, right Jason?

It seems pretty small for us to have to comfort ourselves by throwing stones (forgetting our own glass house) at the newly crowned champ.

It's just as disappointing to think about why this thread started, which was to defend our failure to recruit Mario Chalmers, who grew up idolizing Trajan Langdon, and instead recruit Greg Paulus. Whether or not Chalmers was a viable recruit, the staff made the choice it made believing it was getting the best player at that position in the class. Now that that's proven to have been a substantial misread of talent, the staff doesn't need ham handed attempts like this to defend its decision. They're big boys. They can handle the heat.

[jma4life]

Duhon's mom wasn't paid nearly that much as far as I know.

[Duvall]

scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Or what if he got them trillion dollars jobs? On Mars, no less?

Let's at least try to keep this serious.

[Scorp4me]

scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Would I have a problem? Heck yeah I'd have a problem. I doubt my kid will ever get me a million dollar job, lol. I guess the line is a moving target.

I'll also say I went back and read the Doyel article. Actually just the first part about the parents wanting to move to stay close to their son, the dad coaching his son to two state titles, yada, yada, yada. As someone else mentioned I hesitate to use a Doyel piece as...well, anything really. But the first little bit makes it out to be a very similar situation. Not exact and still stinks a little since the actual school hired him, but if what I wrote was truly what I believe, and it is, then I can't complain too much.

As for Duhon. I'd think recruiting kids whose parents want to stay close to them is exactly the kind of kids we should be recruiting. Perhaps that's just rose colored glasses this time.

[Regenman]

Wow, how old are some of you?

Did you forget how SMU got the death penalty in football or how Kentucky lost its basketball scholarships? It's about the boosters, not about the university.

Heck, didn't the Reggie Bush housing situation for his parents put a sour taste in your mouth.

What's more unethical? A university that publicly employees a coach that has to apply to a public institution listing. Or a potential booster paying a student's parents an undisclosed wage. I'm pretty sure the latter is much more problematic and worthy of investigation.

Since the NCAA didn't drop the hammer on either Duke or Kansas why don't we shut up about this thread.

[rockymtn devil]

For me this entire issue comes down to one question: Absent the school employing the parent, would the recruit commit to that particular school? Much of this thread rests on the assumption that Chalmers wouldn't have chosen Kansas if his father hadn't been hired there. We don't know that, and until we know for sure either way, it's pure speculation. Marion very well could've always favored the Jayhawks. With that in mind, I'll side with Kansas not being sleazy for the time being.