Kansas + Chalmers = Sleazy

[JasonEvans]

thats a great point! how did we let chalmers get away? he is a straight up baller!

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is what I am talking about" Evans

[ugadevil]

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is what I am talking about" Evans

Kansas is all about some sweetheart coaching deals aren't they? Sounds like Mr. Chalmers is in charge of making sure players go to class.

[SilkyJ]

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is what I am talking about" Evans

Wow. I had no idea it was a "long tradition" at KU to recruit like that. Its cheating as far as I'm concerned. Do you have any other examples at KU? (not questioning you, I absolutely believe it, just curious)

[MChambers]

Maybe I should have rooted for a meteor. Sounds like both of the programs that fielded teams last night have some 'splaining to do.

I remember that there were issues having to do with Darrell Arthur's recruitment, but don't remember specifically what they were. Anyone remember? Was it academics or something else?

[JasonEvans]

Wow. I had no idea it was a "long tradition" at KU to recruit like that. Its cheating as far as I'm concerned. Do you have any other examples at KU? (not questioning you, I absolutely believe it, just curious)

C'mon, are you telling me you have never heard about how Larry Brown got Danny Manning to come to KU?

There was a hysterical interview with Larry Brown in 1986, when Manning was a stud freshman and someone asked him how he lured Danny Manning away from home (North Carolina) and got him to come to Kansas. Larry paused a moment and then said, "well, it may have helped that I hired his father to be on my coaching staff." The interviewer was dumbstruck for like 5 seconds. It was great stuff. I wish TIVO existed back then cause I would have saved that moment forever!

By the way, here is a column on the Chalmers package deal. Just plain gross, IMO.

--Jason "I am gonna prune this stuff from this somewhat unrelated thread and create its own thread... just because I can " Evans

[hurleyfor3]

Back on topic, I really liked the old Kansas jerseys. The font was disctictive and had just the right amount of old-timey feel to it.

Allen Fieldhouse used to have a nice-looking floor, too, before they had to go paint that jinormous chicken on it. I guess they can't keep from fixing things that ain't broke there.

[Duvall]

Back on topic, I really liked the old Kansas jerseys. The font was disctictive and had just the right amount of old-timey feel to it.

Allen Fieldhouse used to have a nice-looking floor, too, before they had to go paint that jinormous chicken on it. I guess they can't keep from fixing things that ain't broke there.

Still a great place to watch a game, though.

You have to think that the Trajan font will be forgiven now. It looks like the old jerseys just couldn't put Kansas over the top.

[dw0827]

Have there not been instances where parents of new Duke players would move to or around Durham and end up with fairly nice jobs?

Did I recall some scuttlebutt regarding Duhon? Was it his Mom?

I'm sure it was on the up-and-up, I guess. But you can understand how Duke-haters might construe it.

It is possible that Chalmers was already in the bag . . . the family decides to move . . . and Self decides to hire him given his pedigree. Entirely plausible.

Nefarious? Who knows. JasonEvans, you don't know for sure . . . so save your righteous indignation . . . because people will just as surely shove the parents of Duke players in your face.

I know, because its happened to me and I've had to try to defend it.

I live about 20 minutes from KU and the Chalmers thing has been a non-issue since day 1.

[SilkyJ]

C'mon, are you telling me you have never heard about how Larry Brown got Danny Manning to come to KU?

Yes, I have heard about it. Your original post mentioned it as well. I asked about OTHER examples b/c you said "long tradition"

[dw0827]

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is what I am talking about" Evans

You are referring to two events that occurred approximately twenty years apart, with two different KU coaches, with two different AD's . . . and you have the unmitigated gall to refer to this as "a long tradition at Kansas" . . .

[Troublemaker]

Sorry guys, I can't agree. It's only sleazy if KU fires Mr. Chalmers after his son graduates. Otherwise, what's the big deal? That's how life works. You get jobs through connections and you achieve success by mastering quid pro quo. Besides, somebody has to do the job that Mr. Chalmers performs, and he might be excellent at it.

[Bob Green]

Yes, I have heard about it. Your original post mentioned it as well. I asked about OTHER examples b/c you said "long tradition"

I cannot remember the details, but weren't there some similar shenanigans with the recruitment of Darnell Valentine?

[rsvman]

Have there not been instances where parents of new Duke players would move to or around Durham and end up with fairly nice jobs?

Did I recall some scuttlebutt regarding Duhon? Was it his Mom?

Yeah, but Duhon's Mom was not hired to be the Director of Basketball Operations at Duke University. She didn't become an Assistant Basketball Coach. She wasn't made in charge of inflating the basketballs for practices, or laundering the jerseys before road trips. Sheesh. The Chalmers hiring may have been "a non-issue from day 1" as far as you're concerned, but it smells like a rotting fish from here.

[Chicago 1995]

Chalmers' Dad was qualified for the position, having been a HS coach, and it isn't as though the position was created for him. Every program has someone in a role similar to Chalmers pop.

Further, if a program is going to cheat, wouldn't they do it in a less obvious way. I mean, it's not like they are hiding Chalmers' employment. If this was something that ran afoul of NCAA rules, I would think the NCAA might have done something about it by now, since Chalmers has been in KU employment for three years.

So what we've got is a qualified person being hired for a job that doesn't run afoul in any way of NCAA compliance. That counts as sleaze?

That justification is largely identical, FWIW, to how we defended criticisms levied because of Duhon's Mom's employment. I guess we're sleazy too.

[SilkyJ]

Further, if a program is going to cheat, wouldn't they do it in a less obvious way. I mean, it's not like they are hiding Chalmers' employment. If this was something that ran afoul of NCAA rules, I would think the NCAA might have done something about it by now, since Chalmers has been in KU employment for three years.

See that's the thing, its not technically cheating b/c you can always say that you wanted to hire a new asst. coach or new director of basketball operations, or you can even say that you needed to create a new position. And then you can also say that this person was the perfect fit. And even though everyone knows you are lying, all you have to say is "prove it" b/c its virtually impossible to prove unless someone is stupid enough to have a recorded conversation or something in writing lying around.

[Troublemaker]

See that's the thing, its not technically cheating b/c you can always say that you wanted to hire a new asst. coach or new director of basketball operations, or you can even say that you needed to create a new position. And then you can also say that this person was the perfect fit. And even though everyone knows you are lying, all you have to say is "prove it" b/c its virtually impossible to prove unless someone is stupid enough to have a recorded conversation or something in writing lying around.

But you don't know. The burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

I agree with Chicago 1995 100% here. I would actually take it further. Even if Mr. Chalmers weren't qualified, and even if KU had to invent a position for him, I'd still be okay with it. I know not many people would share that take, but that's how I feel. It's life. For instance, I've given jobs to three of my friends' kids simply because they were my friends' kids. To me, that's all we're talking about here -- connections.

I mean, where do you draw the line for moral judgement? Is it sleazy to give kids scholarships worth $50K just because they can play basketball well and even if they don't meet the academic requirements of the university? In that case, every sports program is sleazy.

[JasonEvans]

You are referring to two events that occurred approximately twenty years apart, with two different KU coaches, with two different AD's . . . and you have the unmitigated gall to refer to this as "a long tradition at Kansas" . . .

Umm, what is the definition of a "tradition" if not something that has happened in the past. Is it only a tradition if they have done it more than twice? They did it before and they have done it again. To me, that makes it a tradition. I don't think I am all that far off from the definition of the word. If it really bothers you, I will revise my comments to say, "Kansas has unethically recruitied in this fashion before and it is disgusting." There, is that better?

I will say that I do not actually think that there was some kind of package deal for the Chalmers family but I am still disgusted in Self for doing this. There is little question that it appears wrong and I would expect a truly honest coach to bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Heck, if I was Self I would have told Chalmers' father that because his son was a recruit, I would not hire him even if he was qualified for the job.

Still, the bottom line to me is that Calmers would not have gotten the job if his son had not been a recruit just like Ed Manning would never have gotten the job of assistant coach at KU if his son had not been a stud recruit. It is within NCAA rules to do this, but it is far from ethical -- even if the father was somewhat qualified for the job (and I am far from convinced that he was seeing as he had exactly zero experience with basketball at the college level).

Oh, and I would be equally disgusted if Duke, for example, were to hire Elliot Williams' mother, Delois, to be a secretary in the basketball office (I have no idea what work she does and hope I am not insulting her) I would be very upset at this and feel it was wrong.

Hiring a parent or family member of a recruit -- especially when it is clear that the family member is only getting the job because the recruit is at the school -- is just wrong.

I would have less trouble with daddy Chalmers being an assistant coach because at least he was a very successful high school coach -- though even then it is problematic because he just does not seem quite qualified to be an assistant at Kansas. At a smaller Division-1 program, maybem, but certainly not at a stud program like Kansas.

--Jason "if it looks bad, an honest program would avoid it-- end of story" Evans

[freedevil]

Someone please correct me on this, but I've heard UNC fans cry foul with Duhon's recruitment in a similar fashion - that his mother got a job through Duke upon moving to Durham? I hope this is not true. Just want to get the scoop in light of this thread.

[JasonEvans]

But you don't know. The burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

I agree with Chicago 1995 100% here. I would actually take it further. Even if Mr. Chalmers weren't qualified, and even if KU had to invent a position for him, I'd still be okay with it. I know not many people would share that take, but that's how I feel. It's life. For instance, I've given jobs to three of my friends' kids simply because they were my friends' kids. To me, that's all we're talking about here -- connections.

I mean, where do you draw the line for moral judgement? Is it sleazy to give kids scholarships worth $50K just because they can play basketball well and even if they don't meet the academic requirements of the university? In that case, every sports program is sleazy.

Then I am guessing you would be fine with giving the family of elite recruits a payoff to attend a school-- like $60-grand perhaps. Because giving them a bogus job (which is what you say you would be ok with) is exactly the same thing, isn't it? Explain the difference in giving a bogus job to the parent of a recruit and just giving money to that family.

Your real-world example of "connections" is not appropriate because we are talking about amateur athletics rules, not the real world. In amateur athletics and the NCAA, players are not paid for what they do. We can have a long argument about the merits of that (and I think it is silly in this day of big-money athletics) but that is how the system works. Funneling cash to the family of a recruit is wrong...

...Bill Self (who worked for Larry Brown at Kansas when Brown hired Ed Manning!!!) just found a conventient way within the rules to make it happen.

--Jason "I totally forgot that Self worked at KU when Brown hired Ed Manning-- this may not be a KU tradition, but it sure is a Larry Brown + disciples tradition" Evans

[Turtleboy]

Umm, what is the definition of a "tradition" if not something that has happened in the past.

By that definition Duke has a deeply entrenched tradition of disgruntled players transferring.


Here's a better one :
tradition
(trə-dĭsh'ən) pronunciation

n.

1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
2.
1. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
2. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See synonyms at heritage.
3. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
4. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
5. Law. Transfer of property to another.

Here are many more, none of which are "something that has happened in the past." Even remotely. Perhaps you are thinking of "previous incident?"