Two and Thru?

[SilkyJ]

it's just not fair....when you're 18, you should be able to work where you want to work...

Welcome to the real world where people have to apply for jobs. you don't get to just go work wherever "you want to work" just b/c you driver's license has a certain date on it.

In the business world people put artificial boundaries around the type of people they will hire to ensure that the product of their work is of the highest quality. An example would be only looking at applicants who have a GPA above 3.0.

With the NBA the product is the game being played on the court and obviously they feel that younger/more immature people or whatever are diminishing their product. Or at least it can be justified in this manner.

[dukemath]

Sorry Spret, I didn't read your post thoroughly.

[Spret42]

Sorry Spret, I didn't read your post thoroughly.

Oh man, don't apologize. I was kidding. It is nice to see someone else recognizing that the simplest way to fix this is a legit minor league. What is the NB"D"L for if not "D-VEL-OP-MENT."

[JG Nothing]

Welcome to the real world where people have to apply for jobs. you don't get to just go work wherever "you want to work" just b/c you driver's license has a certain date on it.

In the business world people put artificial boundaries around the type of people they will hire to ensure that the product of their work is of the highest quality. An example would be only looking at applicants who have a GPA above 3.0.

With the NBA the product is the game being played on the court and obviously they feel that younger/more immature people or whatever are diminishing their product. Or at least it can be justified in this manner.

"Welcome to the real world"? What does the "real world" have to do with moonpie23's claim? The "artificial boundaries" you talk about are just that, artificial. Moonpie23, I assume, is saying that it is wrong to have artificial boundaries that discriminate against 18 years old simply because of their age. Just because discrimination actually occurs does not necessarily make it right.

[GopherBlue]

it's not fair....you're depriving a legal adult to right to pursue his profession. there are a lot of kids that just can't cut college academically . So, the answer is to deny a kid like lebron, or kobe, or kg the right to play in the league?

it's just not fair....when you're 18, you should be able to work where you want to work...

what would be more appropriate, is for the NBA to police their OWN drafting policies.

Can't say I agree with you on this one. They are not stating that a kid cannot play for pay until he is 20, but rather, he cannot play in the NBA for pay until he's 20. Go oversees, or perhaps the NBA developmental league, heck, sign with the Washington Generals if you don't want to go to college. The NBA has every right to determine what is in best interest of its brand and product. I don't see it as any different than posting a job description that requires at least 2 year of post high-school education.

The impact of this decision on the NBA product can be debated, but the NBA has every right to make this call.

Besides, being an 18 year old 'adult' does not give you the legal right to pursue alcohol, rent a car, or a run for president.

[JasonEvans]

Like with Trajan...

Didint the Padres pay for him to be at Duke?
How does that work exactly?

Why cant a pro team make an investment in a guy a send him to college to mature and still retain rights to him?

I dont understand the concpet of amateurism in this case. Kids have been going to camps and playing ball for yrs upon yrs by the time they get to be college age. How exactly is that being an ameteur?

Trajan was not paid to play basketball so he could continue to do that for Duke. He would not have been allowed to play baseball at Duke. He gave up his baseball elligibility but retained it in basketball.

Also, because he was being paid to pay another sport (baseball) I believe he was not allowed to get a scholarship to play another sport (basketball) which is why the Padres paid Trajan's tuition while he was at Duke.

I may be wrong about the scholarship stuff, but I know you can be a pro in one sport and retain amateur status in other sports.

--Jason "Danny Ainge was a pro baseball player while still at BYU, I think" Evans

[dyedwab]

I would like to see college players stay around for at least two years. They should have to make a committment to be a student-athlete if they are going to go to college.

That being said, I do not think it is really fair to hold back a high-school graduate from earning a living. So here is my solution. Allow teams to draft players out of high school, but send them to the NBDL for their first two years. This could help with the concerns about maturity and improving fundamentals and allows the players who do not want to go to college the opportunity to earn a living playing basketball. With good talent in the NBDL, you will see more interest in that league. Players who start college should be committed for 2 years.
(I know. I'm stealing this from baseball.)

I think this solution is fair. I gave up a bigger salary coming out of college to be a graduate student and then a post-doc. I got some training, they got some cheap labor, and now I am moving into a tenure-track position.

I can't belive the NBA hasn't thought about this.

i think they have thought about, but the structure of both the rookie salary cap and the NCAA make it cheaper for the NBA to not have a fully operational minor league.

Basically, if you take an NBA team whose rotation is 9-10 players, they have two roster slots for guys who play little. it is cose effective for them to use that for a player just out of high school paid at most 3.5 million a year to sit on the bench. And if they are more than a couple of years away from becoming an effective player, then have them go to college where the development costs for that player is 0 to the NBA team

I believe that an effective NBDL or other minor league would solve some of the quandries about both the NBA and the college game. But it doesn't appear to me that the NBA has the incentive to build that league

[SilkyJ]

"Welcome to the real world"? What does the "real world" have to do with moonpie23's claim? The "artificial boundaries" you talk about are just that, artificial. Moonpie23, I assume, is saying that it is wrong to have artificial boundaries that discriminate against 18 years old simply because of their age.

Well, moonpie said:

"when you're 18, you should be able to work where you want to work"

In some fantasy world that may happen, but in the real world it don't work like that. You know what, I'm 23 and I WANT to work for ESPN as a color analyst for college basketball. But seeing as how I have zero experience in journalism, broadcasting and the like, it ain't gonna happen, cause this isn't Silky's playland.

I think my father would respond with: welcome to the real world. Life isn't fair:

Goldman sachs won't look at your resume if your gpa was as low as mine.

The Navy won't allow you to apply to be a fighter pilot if you have ever worn glasses and have not had corrective surgery.

You can't become president of the United States if you are under the age of XX (civics was like 8th grade, gimme a break).

These boundaries exist for a good reason. Organizations MUST create them in order to be successful. You want to amend the constitution too?

[MIKESJ73]

At twenty you are not mature enough to drink a beer, but you are mature enough to handle 10 million dollars?

[wilko]

So here is my solution. Allow teams to draft players out of high school, but send them to the NBDL for their first two years. This could help with the concerns about maturity and improving fundamentals and allows the players who do not want to go to college the opportunity to earn a living playing basketball. With good talent in the NBDL, you will see more interest in that league. Players who start college should be committed for 2 years.
(I know. I'm stealing this from baseball.)

I think this solution is fair.

I can't belive the NBA hasn't thought about this.

So another tactic would be to Draft from the NBDL after "x" yrs of NBDL experience... No age limit... Guys can get paid and improve.. College BBall doesnt have to hold its breath about early entry...

BUT... the NBDL... if you play for them are you still an amateur? Could you go to college after the NBDL?

[Kdogg]

it's not fair....you're depriving a legal adult to right to pursue his profession. there are a lot of kids that just can't cut college academically . So, the answer is to deny a kid like lebron, or kobe, or kg the right to play in the league?

it's just not fair....when you're 18, you should be able to work where you want to work...

what would be more appropriate, is for the NBA to police their OWN drafting policies.

You realize even the US government does this. The Constitution prevents me from being POTUS because I'm not 35. I could not be a Senator until last year. There is nothing unfair about an organization restricting employment to only qualified employees.

The rule doesn't automatically say you have to go to college for 2 years. You can take time off or play in Europe. You just have to be 2 years removed from your high school class or age 20. 99.9% of people will go to college of some sort before trying to enter the draft, however.

Really? I had heard (I think through an article in the Houston Chronicle) that the PA had some issues with the policy, but that they were ultimately in favor of it. But you are right, any changes wouldn't kick in until the new collective bargaining agreement takes effect in 2011.

Right now the PA does not support the rule. It sees what happened to Oden last summer and understands the ramifications. If Oden had stayed at Ohio State and required microfracture surgury he wouldn't have entered the draft until after his junior year. Billy Hunter and the PA, like any union, has to look out for its members. There are less and less four year guys in the NBA, so they are not looking to protect veterans as much. More and more are early entrants, so they know the risks.

Stern is a very bright business man and is trying to strengthen his position. He knows that the CBA is not up until 2011, but negotiations will start next fall/winter. This is a big PR move to build public support for the next two years. Every college basketball talking head (Vitale, Packer, Digger, Knight, etc..) will be talking this up over the next two seasons. I'm sure this will be Vitale's new cause de jours. Stern might not be able to get this passed but he can use to to extract other concessions. It's a win-win for Stern. The NCAA has nothing to lose but something to gain so it's in for the ride.

[JasonEvans]

So another tactic would be to Draft from the NBDL after "x" yrs of NBDL experience... No age limit... Guys can get paid and improve.. College BBall doesnt have to hold its breath about early entry...

BUT... the NBDL... if you play for them are you still an amateur? Could you go to college after the NBDL?

But college basketball has a fervent following, allowing people to become fans of players beffore they ever enter the NBA. It is the best "minor league" around because many of the players who come into the NBA already have built in fans and PR value. The same does not nearly exist in baseball or certainly in hockey. It sorta happens in college football but the "star system" is not as essential to football as it is to basketball.

One reason the NBA wants these kids to stay in school longer is to build up each player's "brand" even more before they join the league.

--Jason "it is all about the Benjamins" Evans

[dukemath]

i think they have thought about, but the structure of both the rookie salary cap and the NCAA make it cheaper for the NBA to not have a fully operational minor league.

Basically, if you take an NBA team whose rotation is 9-10 players, they have two roster slots for guys who play little. it is cose effective for them to use that for a player just out of high school paid at most 3.5 million a year to sit on the bench. And if they are more than a couple of years away from becoming an effective player, then have them go to college where the development costs for that player is 0 to the NBA team

I believe that an effective NBDL or other minor league would solve some of the quandries about both the NBA and the college game. But it doesn't appear to me that the NBA has the incentive to build that league

The beauty of using the NBDL is that they don't have to pay $3.5 million.
Minor league = minor $. Teams get a chance to evaluate players and possibly weed out the Kwame Browns.

If they go to the NBDL they make a little money, but get only a little exposure. Its a risk because they could bust, but at least the league is not denying them the opportunity to play for $ in the states. If they choose to go to college, they make zero at first, but then can build their "brand" as Jason says.

[wilko]

But college basketball has a fervent following, allowing people to become fans of players before they ever enter the NBA.

One reason the NBA wants these kids to stay in school longer is to build up each player's "brand" even more before they join the league.

--Jason "it is all about the Benjamins" Evans

I can see your point from that angle. But im not buying it 100%

It used to be that College ball and pro ball were about as similar as collegiate and pro wrestling.. but sadly they are becoming more similar to one another. Just because a guys comes to Duke is not going to inspire me to watch more games when hes a pro. Its just not.

I have enuff demands on my time. I cant add a new sport. :-)
Wifey will kill me.


Where Im coming from is... the guys who wanna be paid ... fine. Figure out a way to pay them. Either legitmize it, decriminalize it (NCAA position), or isolate it.

Im still gonna watch and root for Duke if all the players are my height, age, weight and games take 9 hours to play.

All Im saying is flatten the spike of early entry and return to SOLID FUNDAMENTALS as opposed to overly physical / emphasis on atheletic play.

If a journalism major, gets a side gig and sells some storys to a paper or magazine, thats all well and good. But a sports player cant get paid for running a shooting clinic or for a meet and greet autograph session? Theres something wrong there.

Maybe as part of this detante' and joint cooperation between the league and the NCAA, they will modify the notion of "Amateur" and allow some concessions that make sense.

[Sandman]

I'm not convinced 1-and-done is good for the players or their universities. If a kid is only in school for one year to play basketball, what does he gain? What motivates him to even go to class, much less study, write papers, take exams,etc. He's going to play basketball, then leave. I don't think 2-and done will be much better. If a person coming out oh high school can begin working immediately, doing what he loves and making millions in the process, what's wrong with that? If he wants a college education, that is certainly still available to him. Let the kids, their families, and the marketplace decide their future -- not a bunch of old guys with $$ signs in their eyes.

[glutton]

If a person coming out oh high school can begin working immediately, doing what he loves and making millions in the process, what's wrong with that?

Well, there's nothing wrong with it, but if the NBA feels that inexperienced 18-year-olds are detrimental to the quality of their product, they have every right to institute an age requirement. I do wish there were some way to allow through the exceptional cases, like Lebron and Kobe, who are ready to play and contribute straight out of high school, while limiting the whole "drafting on potential" business that's currently screwing up both professional and college basketball.

[mgtr]

We all are aware of players, such as LeBron and Kobe, who have done well in the NBA straight out of high school. But I wonder what percent of these kids have been total flops? Or played for one year or two and then flamed out -- lack of talent, lack of smarts, lack of good advice? Or failed due to lack of self-control, booze, drugs, or just too big a posse.

[1Devil]

I think a player ought to be able to go to the NBA once he's 18. However, I think that once a player signs up for the NCAA, it ought to be at least a two year commitment. That is, he should be ineligible for the draft until after his second college season.