Takeaways from Ntl Championship?

[Jumbo]

Troublemaker,

I realize Olek is athletic, and I have seen his clips and play. The fact remains that you are more likely to be successful if you recruit a similarly athletic player who is black. I would thinkd that there are quite a number of 6'7/6'8 black guys who are as athletic as Olek and who are ranked higher that would love to come to Duke. Listen, I hope Olek is great and turns out to be a diamond in the rough, but history indicates that he is not likely to be the piece of the puzzle that we need to return to the final four. Doc

I am very uncomfortable with posts like this, especially the part I bolded above. As a moderator, I'm torn on whether to move this to public policy, let the thread go, or just lock it. As a poster, I just wish this discussion would stop. It's not trending well.

[dkbaseball]

a lot changes when the competition goes from your local high school league to the acc. it remains to be seen how athletic he is at the elite college level. melchionni played every monday night at my gym one of his summers (i think after his junior year) against former college players. granted that most played at ivies but he was by far the most athletic player out there every night in terms of quickness, jumping, shooting, etc. he looked like an absolute stud out there.

Czyz caught everybody's attention on the AAU circuit last summer, where the comptetition was above the high school level, talent-wise. In the state finals he played against an extremely athletic team from Las Vegas that just flew up and down the floor and had a top 50 player in the class of '09, Elijah Johnson. Olek still looked like a beast. And leaping at least isn't a subjective capacity; it's quantifiable. I've seen him throw down a left handed jam with his elbow over the rim. If you think he looks like Melchionni athletically after watching him, I'll do something comparable to Cameron's homage to Jumbo.

[glutton]

I am very uncomfortable with posts like this, especially the part I bolded above. As a moderator, I'm torn on whether to move this to public policy, let the thread go, or just lock it. As a poster, I just wish this discussion would stop. It's not trending well.

That statement made me uncomfortable as well. If you replace "athletic" with "academic" and "black" with "white" or "asian", you've got yourself a statement that most people would find very offensive. I just think we should try avoid those sorts of broad generalizations, and evaluate players individually. By most standards, Singler and Scheyer would be considered pretty athletic.

[doctorhook]

Jumbo,

I would appreciate it if you would keep it open, and I will be more careful. Doc

[RepoMan]

Repoman,

Yes, I am saying that if you have more black players, you are more likely to be successful in the NCAA tourney. History supports that conclusion. 90% of the starters of the NCAA winner/runner-up since 2000 are black and none of those teams had more than one white starter. Doc

At the risk of extending a debate that the mods seem to want to end, this is just wrong.

For sake of debate, I will assume that your stats are correct. But, the conclusion that you draw from those stats is logically flawed.

You need to consider the "applicant pool," if you will. Teams that are competing for a national title are recruiting players from a finite pool. For sake of argument, lets say its the top 200 rated players. What percentage of those 200 players do you think are white? I don't have any data, but I would be comfortable guessing that you are in the ballpark of no more than 10%.

So, the fact that the most successful teams have only 10% white players is no big surprise, and it says absolutely nothing about whether black players, inherently, are more athletic than white players.

The real question might be, why are so few white players on the top 200 list? But, that is an entirely different question.

[SupaDave]

Jumbo,

I would appreciate it if you would keep it open, and I will be more careful. Doc

Well I've sat back and watched most of this discussion and well I just keep waiting for Jimmy the Greek to jump out of my screen and slap me in the face. After that I would like for someone to tell me that I can't play Quarterback... Get my drift?

It may be time to close this thread b/c as a black man I can tell you that I'm NOT predisposed to being a good basketball player. If anything my game is best compared to Wojos.

However - there are kids all over the country who play basketball EVERYDAY - and those kids usually end up being some of the best basketball players. Some go to the local park and others go to prep school. That in and of itself does not make you worthy of Duke and quite frankly - neither should your skin color.

It seems that many user's opinions are based in what they see on TV. Based on some of your logic, there should be at least 10 countries from Africa dominating the Olympics and all other international basketball - but that's not the case is it?

[doctorhook]

Repoman,

You do bring up another discussion, but my logic is not flawed. Teams with more black players are more successful in the NCAA tourney therefore if a school recruits and has more black players, that team is more likely to be successful in the NCAA tourney. History and statistics both support my conclusion. Doc

[roywhite]

Repoman,

You do bring up another discussion, but my logic is not flawed. Teams with more black players are more successful in the NCAA tourney therefore if a school recruits and has more black players, that team is more likely to be successful in the NCAA tourney. History and statistics both support my conclusion. Doc

Okay, I'm done with this. This is true nonsense. What does this have to do with Duke basketball...past, present, and future?

Duke tries to get good players who will be a good fit for the basketball program and for the University. Do we need more good players, especially inside players? Looks that way. Are some potential prospects black, and some white? Yes, of course. Let's hope (and our track record would indicate this is the case) that individuals are recruited on their own merits, and not because of their race.

If there is some discussion about why blacks constitute a high number of good basketball players, that's a reasonable topic. But I fail to see how this current discussion relates to Duke Basketball or addresses other issues in a fair way.

[SupaDave]

Repoman,

You do bring up another discussion, but my logic is not flawed. Teams with more black players are more successful in the NCAA tourney therefore if a school recruits and has more black players, that team is more likely to be successful in the NCAA tourney. History and statistics both support my conclusion. Doc

Ridiculous - it's definitely time to close this thread b/c you sound VERY ill-informed.

For the record, I went to an HBCU (Historically Black College/Univ.) and well it just destroys your logic. PLENTY of black players all over the SWAC, MEAC, SIAC, and CIAA.

SWAC and MEAC teams are D-I in basketball and many of these schools have players that go pro (Ben Wallace, Charles Oakley, and there's more). These teams usually field all black players and have not been very successful in the tourney besides the occasional upset (and when Hampton beat UNC which made me about two inches taller)...

So do your stats include black colleges? Apparently not b/c then the numbers would be ruined right? It would then appear that it's the WHITE players that put the teams over the top.

Your argument is moot and redundant. Next you're probably gonna tell me that Europeans are predisposed to playing soccer...

[Johnboy]

Repoman,

You do bring up another discussion, but my logic is not flawed. Teams with more black players are more successful in the NCAA tourney therefore if a school recruits and has more black players, that team is more likely to be successful in the NCAA tourney. History and statistics both support my conclusion. Doc

You are confusing correlation with causation. This is so old, there's a Latin phrase describing the fallacy: post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Also, I don't think you were careful in that post like you promised.

[doctorhook]

Dear board,

I sincerely apologize to anyone on this board who I may have offended. My intent was to have a blunt but honest discussion about Duke recruiting. I have this discussion with a number of my black friends, and I suppose in a face to face, private conversation, my opinions are viewed differently. I certainly will stop posting on this topic based on the response from the mods and the board. Doc

[SupaDave]

Dear board,

I sincerely apologize to anyone on this board who I may have offended. My intent was to have a blunt but honest discussion about Duke recruiting. I have this discussion with a number of my black friends, and I suppose in a face to face, private conversation, my opinions are viewed differently. I certainly will stop posting on this topic based on the response from the mods and the board. Doc

It is the fact that most somewhat understand your viewpoint, however much most of us do not agree, but most do not believe that a skin color can be placed on recruiting statistics.

It's one thing for me to tell my UNC friends they need more Brandan Knights but it's a totally different thing to say they need more black players.