Takeaways from Ntl Championship?

[Troublemaker]

Better than if you replaced them with Beasley and Rose?

No, but that's because I think Rose is a better player than Richards. But not because he's black.

[dukie8]

All of that is a given. There are more blacks than whites who play American basketball and football because of various cultural and physical reasons.

i don't think that this is correct. whites are 66% of the us population and blacks are 13%:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

i cannot find data on the racial numbers of grade school and high school basketball and football players but i have a very hard time believing that, in the aggregate, more blacks than whites play these 2 sports pre-college because whites so far outnumber them and nearly every town -- white or black -- has both sports for youth.

i also have a problem with the notion that there are a lot of white guys who could be great basketball players but who happen to choose lax, hockey or tennis due to cultural reasons. pretty much every boy is exposed to basketball in the us because it is virtually free, is very high profile (in terms of tv or role models), is social and doesn't take a lot of pain to play (like say, football, where you get killed in most practices, or an endurance sport, which requires extremely painful workouts to improve). if you are a good athlete in high school and can play multiple sports well, basketball inevitably is the one that you gravitate to for these reasons. if you can play it really well, then you eventually get rid of the other sports to focus on it. i'm sure that there are exceptions (probably mostly in football) where guys ditch basketball for another sport, but the vast majority of the time it is the other sport(s) that get ditched for basketball.

the other thing to do is to look at the nba and see the dearth of white players. a couple of months ago at work we were bored and looked at who the best us-born white players are in the nba. it's not pretty. no all stars and very few players other than backups or role players. dunleavy may be the best of the lot.

i'm not taking either side of this discussion because i think that you can win with white or black players -- it's just that the white players that you can win with (eg, laettner or hurley) are much rarer and i think that some misinformation has been stated here.

[weezie]

Hate to interfere with the discourse but I finally got to see the KU vs. holes game on rebroadcast this afternoon. About the only thing I could see missing from the Kansas offense was the guy running out during a play to toss a bucket of confetti on the big white stiff playing center for the Washington Generals.

[doctorhook]

Roywhite,

I did not say to not recruit Singler or Scheyer , but do not surround them with Paulus, Pocius and Zoubek. Yes, basketball has changed drastically over the last 20 years both in style of play as well as how the games are called. Doc

[Troublemaker]

i don't think that this is correct.

That's true. I was missing the word "college."

[doctorhook]

Troublemaker,

I realize Olek is athletic, and I have seen his clips and play. The fact remains that you are more likely to be successful if you recruit a similarly athletic player who is black. I would thinkd that there are quite a number of 6'7/6'8 black guys who are as athletic as Olek and who are ranked higher that would love to come to Duke. Listen, I hope Olek is great and turns out to be a diamond in the rough, but history indicates that he is not likely to be the piece of the puzzle that we need to return to the final four. Doc

[MChambers]

Troublemaker,

I guess we just do not agree but I think you are in the minority thinking in this sense. In today's basketball world, the best programs recruit the best players, and the best players are predominately black. The best players are black for a variety of reasons, one of which is the fact that they are usually better athletes than their white counterparts. I do not think these facts are irrelevant when recruiting players at least not if I was recruiting. Doc

that a reporter asked Coach K when he got to the Final Four for the first time whether he had made a conscious effort to recruit black players, and he said, no, he had made a conscious effort to recruit Polish players, but he couldn't find any that were smart enough to get in Duke.

Can we end this debate?

[doctorhook]

MChambers,

And the date of that quote? The game has changed and Mike knows that better than you or I. Doc

[Karl Beem]

Roywhite,

I did not say to not recruit Singler or Scheyer , but do not surround them with Paulus, Pocius and Zoubek. Yes, basketball has changed drastically over the last 20 years both in style of play as well as how the games are called. Doc

You have a problem with the athleticism of Pocius?

[Chard]

Troublemaker,

I realize Olek is athletic, and I have seen his clips and play. The fact remains that you are more likely to be successful if you recruit a similarly athletic player who is black. I would thinkd that there are quite a number of 6'7/6'8 black guys who are as athletic as Olek and who are ranked higher that would love to come to Duke. Listen, I hope Olek is great and turns out to be a diamond in the rough, but history indicates that he is not likely to be the piece of the puzzle that we need to return to the final four. Doc

If we painted Olek black would this help? I think your argument is quickly turning into a joke.

Also, how many of those black players are of mixed racial background? How can you call all of them (your 90% sample) black? Would Battier count or only half of him?

[doctorhook]

Karl,

Yes I do because although Marty has good vertical, he lacks foot quickness and his hand quickness and strength appear to be average to me. Doc

[doctorhook]

Chard,

If my argument is such a joke, why are the overwhelming majority of top level college and NBA basketball players black? As for the mixed race question, I only know two, Carlos and Battier but there are not likely many more and that certainly does not change the stats very much. Doc

[Karl Beem]

Chard,

If my argument is such a joke, why are the overwhelming majority of top level college and NBA basketball players black? Doc

I could bring up nature vs nurture but that would simply confuse the matter. Consider this: how many of the KU and Memphis players could make it at Duke?

[dkbaseball]

Duke could put a 3/5 white lineup on the floor next year that, while not as big in the post as you might like, would give nothing away to anybody as far as athleticism and aggressiveness in attacking the rim -- Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Czyz. I can't wait to see that unit play.

[Troublemaker]

Okay, guys, let's follow MChambers' suggestion and end the discussion of this sidebar racial topic. The reasons are twofold:
(1) I don't think the points being made can be made any more clearly. We're just repeating ourselves at this point. So let's agree to disagree.
(2) I'm sensing that it will become uncivil pretty soon.

Let's get it back on topic: "takeaways from the national championship game", if anyone has anything else to say about that.

If it becomes uncivil, I'll lock the thread. Apologies to anyone who takes issue.

[dukie8]

Duke could put a 3/5 white lineup on the floor next year that, while not as big in the post as you might like, would give nothing away to anybody as far as athleticism and aggressiveness in attacking the rim -- Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Czyz. I can't wait to see that unit play.

we haven't seen czyz play so he is an unknown. however, if you think that scheyer and singler match up to the players who were on the court last night in terms of "athleticism and aggressiveness in attacking the rim" then you were watching a very different game than i saw. don't get me wrong, i like their games, but the qualities you just credited them with are not exactly what they are best at.

[doctorhook]

Karl,

I do not know the details of the KU/MU academics, and I am sure many of them could not get in, but as we all know there is generally more than a little wiggle room in the admissions process with bball. Hey, I am in favor of giving some of these kids a chance. Sean D.'s academics were widely criticized and discussed, and he represented himself quite well at Duke. Doc

[doctorhook]

Troublemaker,

I certainly understand if you lock it up, but I do think different points about specific players and certain situations are new material and not recycled. I assure you I will not become disrespectful, and I only pursue this so vehemently because of my many years of loyalty to Duke. I honestly feel that if we do not change our recruiting pattern, we will not see the National Championship game for some time. I hope I am wrong about all this. I have been to all of the Duke NC games but one. Doc

[dkbaseball]

we haven't seen czyz play so he is an unknown. however, if you think that scheyer and singler match up to the players who were on the court last night in terms of "athleticism and aggressiveness in attacking the rim" then you were watching a very different game than i saw. don't get me wrong, i like their games, but the qualities you just credited them with are not exactly what they are best at.

I've seen Czyz play 12 times, and would put him up athletically with most anyone I've seen this year. Disagree about Singler and Scheyer. They both have decent athleticism and are aggressive going to the rim (Singler less so as the season progressed). Smith and Henderson can be excellent penetrators.

But to return to the main point of the thread, I think it's more a matter of chemistry, how the skills on the court come together. As someone pointed out, an open jumper goes in and Davidson, hardly the most athletic team, goes to the final four instead of Kansas. I think Duke next year will have all it needs in terms of raw tools, but it's all about how they mesh.

[dukie8]

I've seen Czyz play 12 times, and would put him up athletically with most anyone I've seen this year. Disagree about Singler and Scheyer. They both have decent athleticism and are aggressive going to the rim (Singler less so as the season progressed). Smith and Henderson can be excellent penetrators.

a lot changes when the competition goes from your local high school league to the acc. it remains to be seen how athletic he is at the elite college level. melchionni played every monday night at my gym one of his summers (i think after his junior year) against former college players. granted that most played at ivies but he was by far the most athletic player out there every night in terms of quickness, jumping, shooting, etc. he looked like an absolute stud out there.

But to return to the main point of the thread, I think it's more a matter of chemistry, how the skills on the court come together. As someone pointed out, an open jumper goes in and Davidson, hardly the most athletic team, goes to the final four instead of Kansas. I think Duke next year will have all it needs in terms of raw tools, but it's all about how they mesh.

davidson had (1) a pg who led the country in assists and who routinely blew past his more "athletically gifted" defenders of gonzaga, georgetown, wisconsin and kansas; (2) probably the best scorer in the country and (3) multiple big guys who not only could defend impressively the more "athletically gifted" bigs of their opponents, but also, keep their opponents honest on defense by scoring if left alone when too much focus was put on curry. i also would argue that davidson was much more athletic than duke (and most teams) in at least 3 of the 5 starting slots (richards, curry and lovedale). just because they weren't in a bcs conference doesn't mean that they weren't athletic.