Takeaways from Ntl Championship?

[Jumbo]

I do question whether Duke has enough overall team quickness to play our style of D, which requires a lot of quickness, at a championship level. I think over the second half of the season, opponents scored on our defense with pretty good efficiency. We discussed the reasons why, and my belief was that as opposing offenses became more in-sync over the course of the season, they started to better take advantage of weaknesses in our defense. I think one of those weaknesses might be overall team quickness to play Duke's style of defense. And while it's possible that it all boils down to just one spot on the floor, that spot seems to be making a big difference. Overall, I think it's accurate to say that Kansas and Memphis have more quickness than Duke, and therefore it's easier for them to play great, championship-level defense.

Except over the last few games, the defense improved. Defense certainly wasn't the problem against West Virginia. We know Greg is a problem at the point, and we know we don't have a shot-blocker down low. But otherwise, I don't see "quickness" being a problem.

[Jumbo]

The reason college basketball is more entertaining to me than the pros is because of things beyond athleticism: team play, heart and the emotional roller coasters that teenagers and early twenty-somethings are.

Man, how could you watch the Spurs win the title last year and believe that team play and heart aren't incredibly important in the NBA, too, and that athleticism was super-important?

[Duvall]

Man, how could you watch the Spurs win the title last year and believe that team play and heart aren't incredibly important in the NBA, too, and that athleticism was super-important?

That's a fair point, but I'm not sure that the Spurs can really be described as "emotional roller-coasters."

[Rudy]

Man, how could you watch the Spurs win the title last year and believe that team play and heart aren't incredibly important in the NBA, too, and that athleticism was super-important?

Well, I will watch some of the playoffs, especially the finals. I am handicapped, too, since my home team is the Wizards. (It would be nice to see how far they can go if and when their three big guns--Butler, Jamison and Arenas-- are all healthy at the same time.)

[Jumbo]

That's a fair point, but I'm not sure that the Spurs can really be described as "emotional roller-coasters."

No, I'm just tired of hearing college basketball referred to as the bastion of team basketball and the NBA as the culprit for all that is wrong with the game. If anything, I think both divisions of basketball are trending in the opposite directions.

[gw67]

I note that Davidson made the Elite Eight and, IMO, outplayed the Champion. No one would accuse them of being particularly athletic although their point guard routinely beat Collins of Kansas off the dribble. Being athletic is great but basketball skills are still needed along with good offensive and defensive schemes. The four teams in the Final Four were the most skilled basketball teams in the NCAA this year. They were well rounded teams who had good size along with outstanding perimeter play. Each team also had one or two exceptional players who were capable of scoring no matter how athletic the opposition. IMO, Duke has sufficient basketball skills and athleticism to be very good next year but the team is not well rounded nor does it have an exceptional player although Singler and Henderson have the potential to be dominant college players, IMO.

gw67

[doctorhook]

Jumbo,

Jon plays excellent defense but I would not describe his performance in Cameron as "shutting down Ellington". Ellington had 16 or 18 in Cameron and in the game at Chapel Hill he missed wide open shots. As for Kyle, like Jon he has good enough athletic ability but still gets overpowered, partly from being a freshman with less strength and partly from playing out of position. Jumbo, what is your assessment of Jon, GP, Kyle's natural strength and vertical? I realize that is not everything, but it is important. Doc

[Troublemaker]

Except over the last few games, the defense improved. Defense certainly wasn't the problem against West Virginia. We know Greg is a problem at the point, and we know we don't have a shot-blocker down low. But otherwise, I don't see "quickness" being a problem.

Duke only played six games post-NC-State-in-Raleigh. And included in those six games were Clemson, who shot 51%, and Belmont, who took advantage of our defense for most of the game. Our initial defense against WVU was good but we didn't defensive rebound well. Of course, we were stricken with the flu in the tournament, so throw out the Belmont and WVU games, but then we're only left with a 4-game sample, one of which was the Clemson game. Defense is going to remain a concern of mine going into next season.

I agree that it's basically PG defense and no shotblocker, but those are "athletic" things.

[6th Man]

I learned last night that I would love to have any one of the Kansas big men. They are at least 4 deep and they all have very good talent. I had not watched Kansas much this year, but they are very deep, athletic, and big. I think that is a pretty good combination. I have no doubts Kansas and Memphis were the two best teams in the country after watching the Final 4. I was thinking about Duke playing them and Kansas would have had a field day down low. They are also excellent at stealing the ball. The one thing Duke would have done to Kansas is turn them over. Kansas for a great team makes horrible passes and sometimes bad decisions. Overall, we would get outrebounded badly and they are so good defensively, we would not have gotten a lot of good looks. To me, you need a pretty strong inside guy and some really fast guards to win a championship. Singler and Thomas give it all they have, but they are way out of position. They should be 3's and 4's. The more I watched the tournament the more I became proud of the season Duke had. They should have been a sweet 16 team at least, but overall, I can tell this team won on determination throughout the year. The makeup for this team was not on an elite championship level.

[Troublemaker]

No, I'm just tired of hearing college basketball referred to as the bastion of team basketball and the NBA as the culprit for all that is wrong with the game. If anything, I think both divisions of basketball are trending in the opposite directions.

I think the NBA product has been superior for a few years now ever since the rule changes to promote more offense.

[doctorhook]

gw67,

Your assessment of Davidson is accurate, but one problem, they still lost. Doc

[jipops]

No, I'm just tired of hearing college basketball referred to as the bastion of team basketball and the NBA as the culprit for all that is wrong with the game. If anything, I think both divisions of basketball are trending in the opposite directions.

Anybody who has been watching any of the Western conference games would find the brand of basketball being played much more aesthetically pleasing than many of the college games we've seen lately. Anytime the Suns or the Lakers I very much want to block out the time to watch just for the pure enjoyment of seeing good basketball. I could lump many other teams in there as well.

Yeah, the nba ain't perfect, that's for sure. But people who aren't paying attention to it are the ones giving it a bad rap.

[Jumbo]

Jon plays excellent defense but I would not describe his performance in Cameron as "shutting down Ellington". Ellington had 16 or 18 in Cameron and in the game at Chapel Hill he missed wide open shots.

That's why I wrote "on three occasions." In the first three meetings between the two, Ellington shot a combined 6-for-27. Ellington missed a couple of open looks in the game at UNC, but those came later in the game, and he had to work extremely hard to even get open in the first place. Jon was fantastic defensively on him -- go back and look at that post-game thread. The interesting thing about the game in Cameron was that Jon didn't guard Wayne nearly as often as in the past.

As for Kyle, like Jon he has good enough athletic ability but still gets overpowered, partly from being a freshman with less strength and partly from playing out of position.

You got it. Kyle didn't get overpowered nearly as much when he was at the four. That happened when he was at the five. Next year he'll spend less time at the five, and he should be stronger.

Jumbo, what is your assessment of Jon, GP, Kyle's natural strength and vertical? I realize that is not everything, but it is important. Doc

None of the three have great verticals. Kyle and Greg have decent strength; Jon is wiry strong but needs to add a little bulk. Kyle and Jon have extremely underrated quickness. Greg is not quick.

[Saratoga2]

Some championship characterstics that I saw:

good team defense
good inside/outside balance
at least a few players who can dribble drive effectively
players who can finish at the rim
good free throw shooting, esp. in the clutch
good game management by coaches

Duke has some of these elements in place, and we are aware of our deficiencies, lack of inside scoring/defensive presence and some weakness on team defense, both to the inside game, and dribble penetration.

I thought the good team defense was particularly evident in the way they stopped dribble penetration. Rose has few opportunities but Kansas was also slowed a lot.

I agree that both teams had the inside games with several people on each team that could play defense, rebound and also finish at the rim.

Kansas had good free throw shooting but alas, Memphis lost their knack just when it was critical.

Mamphis also seemed to lose composure coming down the stretch. Until then they looked excellent. The poor foul, the steal in the corner, the lack of a foul at the end and no time out taken in the last two critical situations. Kansas seemed to be smarter at the end.

I would add team speed and athleticism, size of the guards on Memphis and to some extend Kansas were also important.

[Jumbo]

gw67,

Your assessment of Davidson is accurate, but one problem, they still lost. Doc

If Chalmers' shot rims out, Memphis is the national champion. If Richards' shot goes down against Kansas, the Jayhawks don't even make the Final Four. Both games were essentially even. That's why I talk about the randomness of March a lot.

[MChambers]

Singler and Thomas give it all they have, but they are way out of position. They should be 3's and 4's.

Name one Final Four team that had someone as big as Thomas or Singler playing the 3.

Answer is none. The problem is that they are both college 4s, just like Luol Deng and Shane Battier. They'd be 3s in the NBA, but that's not what we're talking about.

We need a 5, and the only one on the roster is Zoubek. If Zoubek can improve to play 25 minutes, the size issue is addressed, as far as I'm concerned.

As Jumbo says, however, we don't have a real shotblocker (although Zoubek does affect some shots inside) or a quick point guard (unless Nolan earns more playing time).

[6th Man]

Name one Final Four team that had someone as big as Thomas or Singler playing the 3.

Answer is none. The problem is that they are both college 4s, just like Luol Deng and Shane Battier. They'd be 3s in the NBA, but that's not what we're talking about.

Mike Dunleavy

[CDu]

If you believe that the teams in the Final Four are exemplary of the "recipe" for making the final for and the championship game, then my conclusion would be that Final Four teams need to have a strong post presence multiple threats/ways to score, and an impact playmaking point guard. It doesn't hurt to be able to play stifling defense both inside and outside. We have the multiple threats/ways to score, but we lacked the other two.

If you look at Pomeroy ratings, it should have been clear that Kansas was a favorite to win it all. They had the #1 defense in the country and the #2 offense. In the final four, Kansas played defense on a level that I haven't seen this year. They held UNC to their lowest output of the season. They followed that up by holding Memphis to one of their lowest outputs of the season (in terms of regulation). And they did this despite playing up-tempo, which resulted in more chances for their opponents to score than, say, a UCLA or Washington St would allow. They won the rebound battle against two teams that typically win the rebound battle against their opponents. They were really impressive defensively. Offensively, they had a pretty poor shooting night. For some reason, the threes just weren't falling. For a team that shot 40% from three point range on the season and averaged nearly seven made threes per game, 3-12 is a pretty poor output for them. Despite that, they were right there with probably the other best team in the country at the end.

Memphis was the #4 offensive and defensive team in the country. They had a dominating post defense and incredibly lanky athletic defenders at every spot. They also had a premier playmaking guard in Rose. They could score off the dribble with Rose and CDR, and they had an emerging talent in Dozier. And they could really overwhelm you with length and athleticism defensively at EVERY spot on the floor.

Our liabilities compared to teams like these are in that we don't have a presence to protect the basket or dominate the boards like the others and we have a bit of a liability athletically at point guard. And we differ from Kansas and Memphis in that Kansas had phenomenal size and/or athleticism at every spot on the floor. This can potentially be overcome, but it's a reality that we have to face. Memphis had phenomenal size AND athleticism at every spot on the floor. We lack that menacing presence in the paint, and we don't currently have the quick/explosive point guard. Hopefully, at least one of our options in the post (preferably two or three) emerges as a consistent presence. And hopefully Scheyer and/or Smith can emerge as a good option at point guard to allow Paulus to continue to shift more to the shooting guard role, where he seems more suited at this point.

[doctorhook]

Jumbo,

I almost hate to type this, but here goes. I am not an Obama supporter, but let's follow his theme and have an honest discussion about the relevance of race in basketball. Trivia question, how many white starters on either champion/runner-up team in this decade? I count 8 out of 80 players with no more than one starter on any championship team. We can talk all day about all the athleticism theme, but we are skirting the issue and black players dominate the game. In the NBA it is more obvious, and the college game resembles the NBA more each year. To paraphrase Larry Bird, it is a black man's game. By disclosure, I am a white middle aged guy who was a D-1 athlete, high school bball player. My comments are not "racial" as this is a compliment to the black athlete. Doc

[rsvman]

gw67,

Your assessment of Davidson is accurate, but one problem, they still lost. Doc

So what? A couple of bounces one way or the other, they win. They better manage the last 10 seconds, maybe they win. The game was too close to settle the argument by saying "they still lost." In a one-and-done, the better team doesn't always win, and the guy's point is still valid despite the fact that Davidson ultimately lost the game.

All this talk on and on about how much better Memphis and Kansas were than Duke is getting ridiculous. Take Memphis out of Conference USA and put Duke there instead. You don't think Duke wins that conference? Tennessee beat Memphis and got handled easily by Louisville, who then lost to UNC, whom we beat. Texas beats Kansas, but loses to Memphis in a blow-out. Wisconsin beats Kansas State, which beat Kansas during the regular season, but Duke beat Wisconsin by something like 26 points.

You just can't put that much emphasis on one game. Period. And although Memphis certainly had some top-notch talent, I, for one, would start Singler over Dozier any day of the week, to name just one example.