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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    North Carolina

    Has Cal taken over?

    In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

    We all would agree that noone stays on top forever, and that K definetly has had an amazing tenure as, "the class act" of college coaches and programs. Hands down, the man has done great work! But what Calapari and Donovan have done with their programs of late, the question begs to be asked: Are they the top coaches in college right now? And if they are, what are their particular analysis of the Duke program and it's current state of affairs? I know, some would say, TH with what they think, but it's interesting commentary on people's perspectives about DBB.

    So, I know I won't get much response from this community, but I'll try anyway. Who do you think are the hottest coaches on the scene now are? And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches? Just curious. But don't get it twisted, I'm still a K man.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches?
    What's a Calipari and Donovan type?

  3. #3
    A better argument can be made for Ben Howland than for Calipari.

    Billy Donovan? His team DID make the final four I suppose (of the NIT).

    Roy Williams is probably the hottest coach in college basketball right now, with the recruits he's got and the talent he has. Calipari's work in assembling talent is impressive, but get ready for a mass exodus after this season. UNC is gonna continue to be a final four contender for a long time. One good year does not a great coach make (Gary Williams would have you believe differently though).

  4. #4
    a coach who has won a championship in the last 3 years!
    those are the type of coaches that win championships nowadays.

    just like iPods are the most popular type of mp3 player because the most people buy them

  5. #5
    Why would you say Cal is now the king? Because he has had 3 good years? Does UMD ring a bell? How about Arkansas? Nobody would call Gary Williams the top coach in CBB. Nolan Richardson was never able to get his team back to prominence.

    They may be good right now, but a coach needs more than a final four to be the new king. It will be interesting to see what level Donovan gets his team to in the next 2 or 3 years.
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Yeah, I don't get why you would name Calipari. Ben Howland has had a much better showing in the last 3 year, and Roy has had a better showing in the last 4 years. Calipari's team is going to look pretty different next year and they may not even make the tourney a la Florida this year. I couldn't say that I think any one or two coaches are hot right now, because I don't think anyone has been completely dominant as of late.

    What is a Calipari or Donovan "type"?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Yeah, I don't get why you would name Calipari. Ben Howland has had a much better showing in the last 3 year, and Roy has had a better showing in the last 4 years. Calipari's team is going to look pretty different next year and they may not even make the tourney a la Florida this year. I couldn't say that I think any one or two coaches are hot right now, because I don't think anyone has been completely dominant as of late.

    What is a Calipari or Donovan "type"?
    In his defense, the last three years have been pretty good to Cal. Granted, he plays in a weak conference - but the first coach ever to string 3 straight 30 win seasons together is pretty impressive.
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by steven52682 View Post
    In his defense, the last three years have been pretty good to Cal. Granted, he plays in a weak conference - but the first coach ever to string 3 straight 30 win seasons together is pretty impressive.
    I think that K had a fairly recent stretch where if it wasn't for one 29 win season he would have had five (5) 30 win seasons in a row. It's all about where you make the cut off. And as 15+ of those wins of Calipari's are gimmes, that takes a little away from the accomplishment.

    The hot coach seems to be the one who pulls the right recruiting class. I think that the top coach is the one who manages to do it year in and year out. We'll see what K can do on that front, but he's recovering nicely from the rash of defections/problems which the new era of college basketball finally brought to Duke.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Seriously, that's way too myopic a take. Donovan was just in the NIT this season. Let's see what Calapari does after the defections he'll face this summer. Ditto Self. Ditto Howland. Oliver Purnell???

    In case you haven't figured it out, the common strand between all of those coaches (except Purnell) is that they all accomplished a lot with the same basic group of players, e.g. Donvoan with Horford/Noah/etc. But once those players graduate/leave, can those coaches repeat their success with a different group of players? That's the question.

    For Duke, it's a similar situation but in reverse. Our recent struggles (and again, a lot of programs would take our struggles) have been in large part due to the disappointing '05 recruiting class of McRoberts, et al. It was a huge 5-player recruiting class that was regarded as the best class from that year and should've become the centerpiece of the team, but instead we've received very little production from it. Add to that the fact that half of the '06 recruiting class (Z, LT) is taking a long time to develop, and tada, you have a mixture for going a few years without a Final Four.

    But, since we have to wait and see if those other coaches can repeat their success with a different group of players, we have to wait and see what happens at Duke once the effects of the '05 and '06 recruiting classes are no longer felt (and let's not give up on Z and LT).

    These struggles have happened before at Duke. From '95 to '98, we didn't go to a Final Four mostly due to a similar recruiting slump. But then Duke bounced back. And since Coach K has spent his entire career building Final Four teams with different groups of players, I'm confident that he will do it again. And it starts with recruiting. Hope that we land outstanding '09 and '10 classes. If we can do that, we'll be back on track.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.
    What?!

    This is Cal's 1st final four in a LONG while. And he has no National Title? So getting to ONE final four makes you the man?

    Same goes for Self.

    Donovan was a king yesterday and has been brought back to reality today. You should, as he did, learn quickly what SUSTAINED EXCELLENCE means.

    As for Pernell, I'm not even going to respond to that.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham

    "First ever!!!???"

    Rupp atUK strung together 3 30 win seasons in 1946-47 through 1948-49, so I don't belive that Cal was the first ever to do so. Just fyi.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina

    Wise

    How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now? Donovan and Calapari respectively have had their programs in the finals the last two or three years now. Roy has the talent, but he's at home right now, no pun intended.

    A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players, and (c) to a lesser degree, less systemic and constancy in their year in and year out success, IMHO. Would I trade one or two down years with a promising, capable, probable, highly likely championship team/class? The fact that they may experience a mass exodus after this year to me is, IRRELEVANT.

    That seemingly is the reality of life and college basketball these days.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    I didnt ready every comment but I do agree that Cal is the next Tarkanian being that his program at Memphis is in an extremely weak conference and that Memphis attracts guys from Prep School,1 and Done players,and guys considered to be risky.

    Sometimes the guys he brings in are all of those 3 above,but as long as Memphis brings in the talent they do and play an uptempo style of basketball they should continue to thrive until Cal takes another crack at the NBA.

    Look at their likely 2008 recruiting class
    PF Angel Garcia 5*
    PF Matt Simpkins 4*
    PG Tyreke Evans 5*
    SF Devin Ebanks 5*

    All Memphis is losing to the NBA next season is Dorsey and Rose and they replace them with 3 5* players and a 4* player.

    As I've said before Memphis is the UNLV of our decade.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now? Donovan and Calapari respectively have had their programs in the finals the last two or three years now. Roy has the talent, but he's at home right now, no pun intended.

    A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players, and (c) to a lesser degree, less systemic and constancy in their year in and year out success, IMHO. Would I trade one or two down years with a promising, capable, probable, highly likely championship team/class? The fact that they may experience a mass exodus after this year to me is, IRRELEVANT.

    That seemingly is the reality of life and college basketball these days.
    Two things:

    - I would consider Roy to be the hottest coach right now because he has recently taken TWO different groups of players to Final Fours. His recruiting has been off the charts good lately (but of course, Doherty recruited the first group). It's unfortunate, as UNC is our rival.

    - Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Two things:

    - I would consider Roy to be the hottest coach right now because he has recently taken TWO different groups of players to Final Fours. His recruiting has been off the charts good lately. It's unfortunate, as UNC is our rival.

    - Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.
    His recruiting is good but lets remember that 5 of the 6 key players for that Carolina team were recruited by Matt Doherty.
    Rashad McCants
    Sean May
    Raymond Felton
    Jawad Williams
    Jackie Manuel

    Roy Williams' players hes recruited so far have yet to reach the NC Game,that is a knock on his coaching because even at his years at Kansas he recruited 5* talent but couldnt get them the a Championship.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players,
    I'm sorry man, but you just do not know what you are talking about. I didn't jump on you the first time b/c you seem nice enough, but come on. You said Clemson coach Oliver Purnell is experiencing "dominance". WHAT?!?!?!? Did I miss something?? He has been to the tournament ONCE in the last 5+ years and won a grand total of ZERO NCAA games.

    Now you say that Donovan has strong, quick, physical players who like to penetrate. Who would that have been on Florida last year and two years ago? They're starting backcourt/wing players were Taureen Green, Lee Humphrey, and Corey Brewer. Lee Humphrey was a spot-up shooter so no go there. Green could penetrate, but was short (< 6') and skinny and certainly not a "strong, physical" player. Brewer was same deal, except not short (he was/is 6'8 185. ANYTHING but strong and physical)

    Also, what he says below...

    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    - Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.
    In fact, if anything Demarcus and Gerald would be considered strong, physical penetrators relative to Florida's guys.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina

    I agree

    Yeah you're right, they weren't that similar in terms of those two teams. But we would agree that they could penetrate effectively off the dribble, and they had the capable physicality to go inside. Roy has the potential to match that of Memphis, and other top programs, but he's got to coach them into the championship. Carolina will always get top notched talent, because of their history, location, and their willingness to represent the great state of North Carolina.

    In response to another poster about Pernell; I'm not saying he's great or even that he's accomplished anything of significance. I referenced him because of the job he's done since he's been in the ACC. He's a class act, and they beat us convincingly to get to the ACC championship game.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

    We all would agree that noone stays on top forever, and that K definetly has had an amazing tenure as, "the class act" of college coaches and programs. Hands down, the man has done great work! But what Calapari and Donovan have done with their programs of late, the question begs to be asked: Are they the top coaches in college right now? And if they are, what are their particular analysis of the Duke program and it's current state of affairs? I know, some would say, TH with what they think, but it's interesting commentary on people's perspectives about DBB.

    So, I know I won't get much response from this community, but I'll try anyway. Who do you think are the hottest coaches on the scene now are? And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches? Just curious. But don't get it twisted, I'm still a K man.
    1. Purnell is not dominating. He's a very good coach, but he's yet to win a major conference title, he's yet to finish a season in the top ten, and he's yet to win a tournament game with a team from a major conference. He's just a good solid coach, not dominant.
    2. It's Howland coaching UCLA.
    3. Self is not dominating. He's had one team make the final four, EVER. He's another good coach with a good program, but let's see some sustained success first.
    4. Calipari is a good coach with a track record. But he's coached at good programs in mid-major (i.e., "non-BCS") conferences. But again, this is only his second trip to the Final Four, and his first trip to a title game. He's caught lightning in a bottle this year, but has generally taken advantage of coaching a good team in a poor conference to load up on regular season wins. We'll see if he can sustain tournament success with his current approach.
    5. Donovan had enormous success with basically one class of players (Horford, Noah, and Green). His team didn't even make the tournament this year. He's had phenomenal success the previous two years, but before I call him a dominant coach I'd like to see him rebuild.
    6. Aside from having well-greased hair, I don't see much similarity between Donovan and Calipari. One uses an NBA-style, iso philosophy. The other used a high-low college style philosophy.
    7. Coach K is still targeting and landing the kids he wants to land. That's a good thing. That means that he may very well rebound. And he's not far removed from being a dominant coach, in any definition of the term.

  19. #19

    Gthc Gth

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wicker View Post
    How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now?
    Really you could say that whoever is the coach in Chapel Hill is the hottest. It is after all located in Hell!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    5. Donovan had enormous success with basically one class of players (Horford, Noah, and Green). His team didn't even make the tournament this year. He's had phenomenal success the previous two years, but before I call him a dominant coach I'd like to see him rebuild.
    Exactly. He took that one group of players twice to the promised land. Not only that, but he (in my opinion) recruited very differently with that bunch than he had been in his early tenure in Florida.

    So yes, he won back-to-back championships, and no one can take that away from him, but it remains to be seen if that caliber of Gator play in 2006 and 2007 was a fluke or a sign of things to come.

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