Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.

    A Pyrrhic victory?

    There was a line in the short report about Gerald Henderson's surgery--something innocuous about him injuring the wrist in Duke's victory over North Carolina on February 6th--that got me to thinking.

    At the time, things were going great for the team, and seemed to be getting better. They came out of the Dean Dome with the W, and all was right with the world. And then......well, everybody knows what happened. It's almost like this season was TWO seasons, the season up to and including the first UNC game, and the season thereafter. As if there had been a pact to get the win against UNC in exchange for late-season disappointment.

    What everyone seems most upset about is that Duke didn't even make the Sweet 16. So, I'll ask the question: Would you trade the win over UNC for a win over West Virginia? The overall record would be the same, but Duke would have made the Sweet 16. Would you trade the win over UNC for TWO wins in the NCAA tournament, and a berth in the Elite 8? Would you have been MORE disappointed in the season or LESS disappointed had Duke lost to UNC twice but made the Sweet 16?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA

    Cool Weird question with obvious answer

    Um, I would always trade any regular season win to go one round deeper in March. This is a weird question. As Coach K has always said that we measure our season in March, I would be suprised to find many Duke fans that would rather beat UNC than make the Sweet 16. I certainly wouldn't trade back our Belmont win to beat UNC in Cameron, even if it meant winning the ACC regular season. I'd rather go 20-15 and go to the Final Four than 30-5 and go to the Sweet 16.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Ii don't think the question is all that weird, nor do I think the answer is necessarily obvious. Clearly, most people would disagree that "a win is a win," meaning that all wins are equally important. I'd much rather beat UNC than, say, Miami. Likewise, I'd rather lose to Miami than lost to UNC.

    For my case, I would NOT trade the win at the Dean Dome for a win against West Virginia. I was just curious how others viewed the importance of the games against our biggest rival versus games in the early rounds of the NCAA tournament.

  4. #4
    I would not trade the UNC win for a win over WVa. Losing to WVa didn't suck as much as beating UNC was awesome.

  5. #5
    rsvman,

    I do not think it is a wierd question, and I would not trade the UNC victory for the WV victory. For most of those of us who live around here and have to listen every day to the constant hole b.s. the UNC victory is much sweeter. I would swap it for a NaChamp. and probably nothing less. Doc

  6. #6
    Considering I was at the WV game, and surrounded by WV fans, I would have gladly traded the UNC game for the WV game. As well as to get the Sweet 16 monkey (small but growing) off our back.

  7. #7
    I wouldn't trade the win over UNC for a win over West Virginia, because I don't think we'd have gone any further than the next game.

    The only bad thing about the UNC loss was that it inflated the expectations of our fans, and possibly put pressure on the players that led to them wearing down as the season went along. No doubt some will contest what I'm about to say, and some will not be so nice about it, but I do not think we beat UNC if Lawson had played.

    If we had lost a tough, but fairly close game, I wonder how the pyschology of our players would have been affected? I can't help but wonder if they might not have been encouraged by the near miss but left with a greater sense of hunger.

    It's also interesting to wonder if UNC would have developed their half court game, and Thomas as a workable back up to Lawson had he not been out. It's just funny the way things work out sometimes.

  8. #8

    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There was a line in the short report about Gerald Henderson's surgery--something innocuous about him injuring the wrist in Duke's victory over North Carolina on February 6th--that got me to thinking.

    At the time, things were going great for the team, and seemed to be getting better. They came out of the Dean Dome with the W, and all was right with the world. And then......well, everybody knows what happened. It's almost like this season was TWO seasons, the season up to and including the first UNC game, and the season thereafter. As if there had been a pact to get the win against UNC in exchange for late-season disappointment.

    What everyone seems most upset about is that Duke didn't even make the Sweet 16. So, I'll ask the question: Would you trade the win over UNC for a win over West Virginia? The overall record would be the same, but Duke would have made the Sweet 16. Would you trade the win over UNC for TWO wins in the NCAA tournament, and a berth in the Elite 8? Would you have been MORE disappointed in the season or LESS disappointed had Duke lost to UNC twice but made the Sweet 16?
    Kind of a silly point. Henderson played very well in the final games, after a couple of games finding himself after the injury. It wasn't the UNC game that sent us on a downward trend. Some of our players seemed to go downhill for no obvious reason. There were reasons, but we really haven't been given enough information to know what they were.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sandinmyshoes View Post
    I wouldn't trade the win over UNC for a win over West Virginia, because I don't think we'd have gone any further than the next game.

    The only bad thing about the UNC loss was that it inflated the expectations of our fans, and possibly put pressure on the players that led to them wearing down as the season went along. No doubt some will contest what I'm about to say, and some will not be so nice about it, but I do not think we beat UNC if Lawson had played.

    If we had lost a tough, but fairly close game, I wonder how the pyschology of our players would have been affected? I can't help but wonder if they might not have been encouraged by the near miss but left with a greater sense of hunger.

    It's also interesting to wonder if UNC would have developed their half court game, and Thomas as a workable back up to Lawson had he not been out. It's just funny the way things work out sometimes.
    Yes, yes, yes. While I'd be tempted, I wouldn't trade the UNC win for a win over WVa because the way we were playing, I don't think we would've made it past the next game anyway.

    And it would add insult to injury seeing us lose twice to UNC and seeing UNC go on to win the national title (if they do). I wouldn't sleep for months.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    Count me in as one of the those who would not have traded up the UNC win for a WV victory. This should be a simple answer for anyone on this site, considering had we lost to UNC in Chapel Hill the Heels would now have a five game winning streak on us as they hunt for their second national title since our last. Also, we would have to endure the proverbial "We haven't lost two you since February of '06" line, meaning that, before our next chance to knock them off, we would have gone three years without doing so. Ouch.

    That would be the pure definition of Hell. Please tell me nobody here would vote for that?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    To me, there is a deeper thing in your description of the UNC win - Gerald got hurt. We slid. Along with that, right around then Nolan got hurt (maybe the same game?) and his hurt knee likely effected the rest of the season for him, IMO. I even recall Greg in a knee brace (low-grade lycra one) for the ACC tourney or UNC round 2.

    I thin we got plagued with injuries around January, and that contributed significantly to our 6-5 record to finish the year. I would like to think that we could overcome that, but my guess is that a 70% Gerald is still a powerful weapon that Coach K could lean on.

    This late-January injury during games is a pattern that seems to re-occur over the last few years. I smell a pattern, but I hesitate to consider it solidly causal.

    By the way, I wouldn't trade a UNC victory for anything short of a National Championship. Living in the triangle, those are really the only two points you can lean on in a discussion.

  12. #12
    It's obvious that in those last 11 games we had some injury issues as well as Singler appearing to hit the wall very hard. And remember, 2 of those last 6 wins were only by a point each and we were fortunate to pull out both of those for how we played. It does seem like we've had a bad trend these last few seasons of having a swoon entering the tournament with sub-standard tourney performances that I hope we reverse this coming year. As to the topic of the post. . .I'd never trade a victory over unc. I'm greedy--I want to beat them and advance in the tourney further, but to trade a game (particularly against them) which would've only meant moving a round further with no guarantee of any further advancement. . .naaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    I think I'd trade it for the Final Four, but not the Sweet 16.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA

    To paraphrase Danny Ferry..

    Before one of the UNC games in the late 1980s they asked several players what the Duke/UNC game meant to them and the fans.

    Danny Ferry said something like this "We can go 3-20 and still have a good season as long as the 3 wins are all against UNC"

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    I don't think the UNC and WVU games are related because I think Henderson had adapted to his injury by then. The UNC win was the highpoint of the season, and I'll always take a win over the 'Holes. I think the late season stumbles had multiple reasons - Henderson's injury (particularly the Wake and Miami losses), Singler's wearing down (more of a factor with the UNC, Clemson, and WVU losses), the failure to find another consistent scorer besides Henderson and Sheyer once Singler faded. Hopefully we can have a relatively injury free season next year, because I think, with all the pieces in place, we can be really, really good.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Should we take down the Final Four banners and put up banners for our victories over UNC instead? Several people have said they would trade the win over UNC for a National Championship only, so clearly, to them, a win over UNC is a better indicator of a successful season than a Final Four.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Kind of a silly point. Henderson played very well in the final games, after a couple of games finding himself after the injury. It wasn't the UNC game that sent us on a downward trend. Some of our players seemed to go downhill for no obvious reason. There were reasons, but we really haven't been given enough information to know what they were.
    The key to the offense was penetration from the wings to the foul line, where the defense had to guard for the pull up. Duke's most dangerous pull up wing shooter in that situation is, er, was Henderson. If, as happened, teams devised a way of using a double team with their bigs to stop penetration all the way to the basket in many instances, then Henderson's ability, or inability as it were, to be the go-to guy and pull up and hit the 15 foot jump shot hurt this team's offense badly.

    Difference between having to "settle" for a contested three too often, when Henderson could have hit a jump shot or two, and then opened up the lane for a one-on-one against a waiting big, with his defender left behind. That one-on-one, again with a pull up and jumper over a defender who was bent on stopping penetration to the basket an option from say 5 feet, was the money Duke didn't have. Big money, as we shall see from the NBA someday.

    Take that kind of money away from any other team, aka Carolina, and we see the results are no different.

    By the way, we are now seeing a completely rested and refreshed and hungry Lawson, while everyone else is dragging from 30 plus game seasons. I don't think that fresh against fresh he is the difference maker everyone presumes.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Should we take down the Final Four banners and put up banners for our victories over UNC instead? Several people have said they would trade the win over UNC for a National Championship only, so clearly, to them, a win over UNC is a better indicator of a successful season than a Final Four.
    No. It could just mean that they value a win over UNC more. Kinda like if you have a photograph or trinket lying around the house that you value deeply for whatever reason even though it wouldn't sell for much on e-bay.

    I agree with those that wouldn't trade the win for anything short of a Final Four. My guess is that would be the most popular opinion if we polled.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    Can I just keep the win, trade the loss to WV for a Jose Canseco rookie card?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Pyrrhic Victory? If the Pyrrhs are playing the Tar Heels, I'm all for it.

    I wouldn't trade the UNC victory for anything short of a trip to the final four or a victory against UNC for Markie's senior day.

Similar Threads

  1. One Small Victory for Duke
    By TwoDukeTattoos in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-11-2008, 09:23 AM
  2. Heels' 3rd team cruises to victory
    By buzz in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-05-2007, 09:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •