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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Ooooooooo-Kaaay... so I think its a bit of a mischaracterization to say that Deng was a one and done player. Those of you who "knew" that he was gone after a year must have been closer to him than the coaching staff and the basketball office, because they were shocked, absolutley shocked that he left after his freshman year.

    Let me take this opportunity to address a couple of issues that have been on my mind for a while...

    1. Why does everyone just assume that players want to come to Duke? I mean, regardless of your standing as a four year player or a one and doner, K will make you go to class. You're not sliding here. When people talked about Josh, what'd you hear? "He hated going to class, he disliked studying, etc." What you DIDN'T hear was, "Josh isn't going to class anymmore." To play at Duke you attend class and make grades... period.

    Now, if you're Michael Beasley, and you know that you're going to college for a year and you've got K in your living room (and yes, I know we weren't in on Beasley, but go with me here) and he says, "Michael we'd love to have you join our program for as long as you like. With your skill set, you will probably play a ton because we don't have a lot of depth at the post postion, and you'll work out in the best facilities in the country. We also play in a great conference and you'll play against great competition. Furthermore, we have great academics... some of the best in the nation. We'll expect you to attend class and represent the University as a student-athlete to the best of your ability."

    Then Bobby Huggins walks into your living room (and yes I know that Huggy Bear isn't the coach at KSU, but he did recruit Beasley, so go with me here) and Huggy says, "Michael we'd love to have you join our program for as long as you like. With your skill set, you will probably play a ton because we don't have a lot of depth at the post postion, and you'll work out in the best facilities in the country. We also play in a great conference and you'll play against great competition. Now, as far as class goes, I don't give a flying s*** if you go or not. We'll drop you in a few classes to keep your grades, up, but if you don't want to go to class, don't worry about it."

    Do you think that its possible that an 18-year old kid who figures he's 12 months away from living out his dream and making millions to play basketball would like what Huggy has to say just a bit more than what K has to say? Maybe? I mean, a lot of kids struggle with thier studies in high school, and not all of them can be Sean Dockery.

    2. The changing landscape of college basketball has changed our recruiting philosophy. There is no question about that. Fact is that in 03-04 when we brought Deng in, we assumed that he would be staying for at least 2 or 3 years. If he'd stayed until he was a senior or even a junior, we'd have had some pretty formidable teams. I think that his leaving caught the coaching staff off guard, and the fact that Livingston went straight to the NBA, they were caught off guard again... and he'd have been a senior this year. So it seems like, with the G, Z, LT, Scheyer, et al class we started recruiting a different kind of player. I think that K is bringing in more guys that will be around longer so that we end up with a continual series of teams that are deep with seniors. Livingston and D-mark would have been formidable together. Think about it, next year we will have a senior class of Paulus, Marty, possibly McClure. 2 years from now we'll have a Sr class of Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas and possibly G. The following year it will be TK, Nolan, and possibly Kyle (hey... its possible). We will continue to recruit guys who are willing to stay for a while, and hopefully end up with teams that are loaded with Jrs and Srs as oppsed to Freshman. I think before we start screaming that we should bring in a bunch of guys who don't have the willingness to become a part of the Duke family the long term, perhaps we as fans should just place some trust in the coaching staff and see how this new strategy goes.

    3. Why don't we go get X? Why aren't we looking for a (insert position of need here)? Do y'all reall think that the coaching staff is inept in identifying the needs of the basketball team? Do you believe that they are unaware that we're pretty thin in the post right now? Or is it possible that they believe that Z and LT will make progress over the summer that will make them more valuable than, say, an unproven freshman who was a highly rated recruit who averaged 10 points and 5 boards as the biggest guy on the court in high school? I'm just sayin'

    I guess, I think people should jsut relax about the recruiting stuff. We get who we get, and more often than not they are the guys we want. If guys don't want to coem to Duke, then its OK that they go elsewhere, because they most likely wouldn't have worked in the system or with the coaches.
    Last edited by Jumbo; 03-27-2008 at 12:04 AM.
    WWJDD?

  2. #42

    d-mc

    will be back definetly. I think K values him as a leader. He doesn't offer alot of offense but he can play some D and has experience. K always seems to speak highly of him. Also, Marty's a junior all over again. So the senior class is Greg, Dave, and Jordan.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by geraldsneighbor View Post
    will be back definetly. I think K values him as a leader. He doesn't offer alot of offense but he can play some D and has experience. K always seems to speak highly of him. Also, Marty's a junior all over again. So the senior class is Greg, Dave, and Jordan.
    There are no guarentees that guys who've graduated will come back simply because they have a year of eligibility left. Trust me, I pray that Dave comes back, but you never know until it actually happens.
    WWJDD?

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    Do you believe that they are unaware that we're pretty thin in the post right now? Or is it possible that they believe that Z and LT will make progress over the summer that will make them more valuable than, say, an unproven freshman who was a highly rated recruit who averaged 10 points and 5 boards as the biggest guy on the court in high school? I'm just sayin'.
    I think Patrick Patterson would have been more valuable than Z or LT this year. If not better than... he would have at least made their minutes better b/c they would have had some back-up. Shelden was better than Casey Sanders when he stepped on campus.

    Something must be wrong with the big man recruiting. Evidence: we have like 8 awesome guards and 1 1/2 big guys. Aware or not, we have missed out on a big time big guy for two years in a row. We've also had two big guys transfer. Maybe we're not recruiting correctly? Nah, that couldn't be it.

  5. #45

    the boat

    There is no guaruntee the Boat would've flurished in Durham anyway. Boykin didn't want to wait for his time to come and was home sick. Hes getting minimal minutes for Cal who fired their coach today. No promises there.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by geraldsneighbor View Post
    There is no guaruntee the Boat would've flurished in Durham anyway. Boykin didn't want to wait for his time to come and was home sick. Hes getting minimal minutes for Cal who fired their coach today. No promises there.
    Yeah, you're right! I say Boykin play and he didn't look good enough to play in the ACC at all. So, we recruited the wrong big guys. It just seems like something is wrong with our big guy recruiting. Z got injured, that can't be helped. But look what happened when Marty got injured--we were fine, b/c we have a sick stable of ridiculous guards. But when Z gets injured we are really thin, and we have no pure inside bangers. McClure is incredible, but he can't be expected to guard a guy that is 4" and 50 lbs. bigger than him. King is a 3-point shooting specialist at this point and not a post player. Singler and Thomas are small forwards/tweeners that can exploit mis-matches with the other team's power forward.

  7. #47
    While Singler shoots the 3 well, I think that when he got to involved on the outside his inside game suffered. UNC pt.1 was the best game Singler ever played. He shot the 3, and played well inside. Thats the Singler I want to see more of. King also defensivly at 230 lbs. can body up on the inside. I thought he played some solid D Saturday late in the first half when it was him and McClure down low.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Shelden was better than Casey Sanders when he stepped on campus.
    Really? Was he leaps and bounds better when he stepped on campus?

    Here are two stat lines from the 2002-2003 Duke Blue Devils... tell me which one belongs to Casey and which belongs to Shel

    PPG, RPG, Blks, Stls, MPG, Fouls
    8.2, 5.9, 52, 23, 19.2, 102
    4.6, 5.4, 54, 17, 17.8, 102

    Yeah... there was such a clear difference between the two.
    Last edited by MulletMan; 03-27-2008 at 11:39 AM.
    WWJDD?

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Franzez View Post
    Actually David Stern recently has said he wants to up the age limit to 20,which would means a player would have to do at least 2 years of college.

    It will be voted on but its very likely it will be passed by the 2009 NBA Draft
    That is totally incorrect. A change would have to be collectively bargained and the current collective bargaining agreement doesn't expire until after the 2010-11 season. A change is far from "likely."

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by dukepsy1963 View Post
    Never one-and-done!! Everyone loses in the long run.... Bring back the old days somehow...... Go to college, play a sport, get a degree, ........expand your mind, not just your body and pocketbook! I hate what the NBA has done to basketball!!
    Uh, what has the NBA "done to basketball?" Don't they play basketball in the NBA? Or am I missing something?

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerstud2210 View Post
    i guess Kansas, UCLA, and UNC are exceptions to that statement...
    I could've sworn UNC lost to George Mason in the second round two years ago and went 23-8. I could've sworn that UNC was 19-11 in 2003-04, 19-16 in 2002-03 and 8-20 in 2001-02. By your definition, none of those seasons were successful. So, that's hardly a consistent program that is an "exception to that statement." In fact, by your standards, UNC has had one great season (2005 national title) over the prior seven seasons, and I'm not sure how you'd define last year's Elite Eight finish. We'll see how things turn out for them this year.

    UCLA has made the last two Final Fours. In 2004-05 they were ... 18-11. 2003-04? 11-17. 2002-03? 10-19. Noticing a trend? I applaud the program for three excellent seasons (including this one).

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but has Kansas made the Final Four under Bill Self? (Hint: I'm not wrong.) In 2004-05, Kansas went 23-7 and lost in the first round to Bucknell. In 2005-06, Kansas went 25-8 and lost in the first round to Bradley. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those nearly identical results to seasons you have considered "failures" at Duke? (Hint: I'm not wrong.)

    Your arguments are getting weaker as this thread progresses.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by geraldsneighbor View Post
    There is no guaruntee the Boat would've flurished in Durham anyway. Boykin didn't want to wait for his time to come and was home sick. Hes getting minimal minutes for Cal who fired their coach today. No promises there.
    Boykin didn't have issues with Duke. He had family issues and transferred to be closer to home.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    Uh, what has the NBA "done to basketball?" Don't they play basketball in the NBA? Or am I missing something?
    Do you REALLY not understand what he means? Hmmm....

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Yeah, you're right! I say Boykin play and he didn't look good enough to play in the ACC at all. So, we recruited the wrong big guys.
    Boykin wasn't a "big guy." He was a lean 6'7" when he came to Duke. We brought in two bigs that year, and they were named McRoberts and Boateng.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    It just seems like something is wrong with our big guy recruiting.
    Aren't we already discussing that in enough other threads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Z got injured, that can't be helped. But look what happened when Marty got injured--we were fine, b/c we have a sick stable of ridiculous guards. But when Z gets injured we are really thin, and we have no pure inside bangers.
    Now, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that losing Marty wasn't such a big deal because he was, I dunno, our sixth-best guard? Now I'm gonna go out on another limb. Maybe Duke (and every other program, for that matter) has more depth in the backcourt because big guys are, I don't know, rare? Maybe -- just maybe -- a larger proportion of the population is, say, 6'4" than, say, 6'10". You might not have noticed, but excellent big guys aren't growing on trees, and there are more than 300 schools in Division I and more than 70 in the six power conferences. Geez.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by bhd28 View Post
    Do you REALLY not understand what he means? Hmmm....
    I really don't. What has the NBA "done to" basketball? Someone fill me in.

  16. #56
    This has nothing to do with the original point of the thread but seeing the last post talk about expectations I was curious to ask the question.

    I'm sure everyone had a different opinion on what they thought the outcome of Duke's season would be, but when Duke was setting #2 in the nation it would be hard pressed for fans expectations to not to change (I know mine certainly did). If someone had told me in October that Duke would have finished 28 and 6, beat UNC and climbed has high as #2 I would have done cartwheels on the spot. However saying this, watching Duke struggle down the stretch and lose to West Virginia, I had to think should I be thrilled that Duke played outstanding basketball for 4 1/2 months (that very few people expected) or be disappointed by the last month?

    How do we as fans gage our own changing expectations during a season?

    I find that question extremely tough to answer.
    Last edited by The1Bluedevil; 03-27-2008 at 12:27 AM.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerstud2210 View Post
    a couple years ago, that statement would have been heresy... this is why there are so many articles floating around about how duke basketball is on the decline... why we aren't a powerhouse program, and so on... i'm sorry, but if losing in the first round last year and losing in the second round to a very mediocre big east team is a good season... i don't know if i can except that... and don't get me wrong... i am not saying the guys didn't play hard or do well, just saying that it is not duke basketball worthy...
    West Virginia is far from mediocre.

    They are a solid Big East team who took down Georgetown in the Big East tourny.

    Some teams just peak at different times. WVU peaked at the end of the season. Duke peaked in the beginning of the season.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
    Maybe Duke (and every other program, for that matter) has more depth in the backcourt because big guys are, I don't know, rare? Maybe -- just maybe -- a larger proportion of the population is, say, 6'4" than, say, 6'10". You might not have noticed, but excellent big guys aren't growing on trees, and there are more than 300 schools in Division I and more than 70 in the six power conferences. Geez.
    I think we've pretty much got a leg up in recruiting big guys on 99% of those 300 Division I schools--we're Duke!

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    Really? Was he leaps and bounds better when he stepped on campus?

    Here are two stat lines from the 2002-2003 Duke Blue Devils... tell me which one belongs to Casey and which belongs to Shel

    PPG, RPG, Blks, Stls, MPG, Fouls
    8.2, 5.9, 52, 23, 19.2, 102
    4.6, 5.4, 54, 17, 17.8, 102

    Yeah... there was such a clear difference between the two.
    I don't know, was he leaps and bounds better? I know he was better, and I also know that your stat lines don't tell the whole story. Is there a "missed lay-up from 2 inches" category, or a "couldn't catch the ball standing alone under the basket" category? Are factors like "scares the other team's players" or a "makes the other team's players laugh" appropriate to include? Landlord's got his jersey in the rafters and was better than Casey Sanders, a 4-year project player, from day 1.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I think we've pretty much got a leg up in recruiting big guys on 99% of those 300 Division I schools--we're Duke!
    . . . and therefore entitled . . .

    wow.

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