Is it time for Duke to change some things?

[CenOhioDukeFan]

For the last 3-4 years, Duke has gone to a 3 guard lineup. Every big game we're in, we're being outrebounded and killed inside (WVU 45 reb, Duke 19). K built his great teams in the 80's, 90's and early 00's with 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards that could rebound, run the court, and play the man-to-man defense. (Players like Alarie, Brickey, King, G. Hill, Lang, McCleod, Battier, Carrawell, Dunleavy, Jones and Deng. We've kind of gone away from recruiting those type of players and are settling for 3 guard lineups.

Also, the aggressive man-to-man defense K built his great tams with had great athletes at ever postition. While the last 3-4 year Duke teams had very skilled players, it's safe to say they, except for a couple players, aren't great athletes that can chase quicker players all over the court and stay with them or in front of them. Is it time to change some defensive schemes and play some zones and some junk defenses, just to help players like Zoubek, McClure, Paulus and Scheyer have better chances at stopping some teams penatration. Duke went into a 2-3 zone tyhe last 10 minutes of the Virginia game at Va. They held them to 5 pts over those 10 minutes and 0 pts for 6 1/2 minutes. Zoubek, Singler and Henderson also dominated the defensive glass. Yet Duke never went back to that defense and teams like Belmont and West Virginia drove on Duke all night and all day for easy baskets and kick out for wide open threes. When BELMONT has players beating you one on one, isn't it time to tweak some things and the way you play defense until to start getting those athletic recruits again!!!

Thoughts??

[wiscodevil]

For the last 3-4 years, Duke has gone to a 3 guard lineup. Every big game we're in, we're being outrebounded and killed inside (WVU 45 reb, Duke 19). K built his great teams in the 80's, 90's and early 00's with 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards that could rebound, run the court, and play the man-to-man defense. (Players like Alarie, Brickey, King, G. Hill, Lang, McCleod, Battier, Carrawell, Dunleavy, Jones and Deng. We've kind of gone away from recruiting those type of players and are settling for 3 guard lineups.

Also, the aggressive man-to-man defense K built his great tams with had great athletes at ever postition. While the last 3-4 year Duke teams had very skilled players, it's safe to say they, except for a couple players, aren't great athletes that can chase quicker players all over the court and stay with them or in front of them. Is it time to change some defensive schemes and play some zones and some junk defenses, just to help players like Zoubek, McClure, Paulus and Scheyer have better chances at stopping some teams penatration. Duke went into a 2-3 zone tyhe last 10 minutes of the Virginia game at Va. They held them to 5 pts over those 10 minutes and 0 pts for 6 1/2 minutes. Zoubek, Singler and Henderson also dominated the defensive glass. Yet Duke never went back to that defense and teams like Belmont and West Virginia drove on Duke all night and all day for easy baskets and kick out for wide open threes. When BELMONT has players beating you one on one, isn't it time to tweak some things and the way you play defense until to start getting those athletic recruits again!!!

Thoughts??

28-6, 13-3.

Wins over UNC, Clemson, Miami, Wisco, Davidson, Temple, Marquette, Cornell. A one point loss to Miami and Pitt. Only one loss to a team that didn't nmake the torunament - Wake, away.

This team had one senoir.

I would say Nelson, Pocius, Henderson, Smith and Singler qualify as very athletic. As do the two recruits coming in next year.

When you miss shots, it's hard to win.

[CDu]

For the last 3-4 years, Duke has gone to a 3 guard lineup. Every big game we're in, we're being outrebounded and killed inside (WVU 45 reb, Duke 19). K built his great teams in the 80's, 90's and early 00's with 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards that could rebound, run the court, and play the man-to-man defense. (Players like Alarie, Brickey, King, G. Hill, Lang, McCleod, Battier, Carrawell, Dunleavy, Jones and Deng. We've kind of gone away from recruiting those type of players and are settling for 3 guard lineups.

Also, the aggressive man-to-man defense K built his great tams with had great athletes at ever postition. While the last 3-4 year Duke teams had very skilled players, it's safe to say they, except for a couple players, aren't great athletes that can chase quicker players all over the court and stay with them or in front of them. Is it time to change some defensive schemes and play some zones and some junk defenses, just to help players like Zoubek, McClure, Paulus and Scheyer have better chances at stopping some teams penatration. Duke went into a 2-3 zone tyhe last 10 minutes of the Virginia game at Va. They held them to 5 pts over those 10 minutes and 0 pts for 6 1/2 minutes. Zoubek, Singler and Henderson also dominated the defensive glass. Yet Duke never went back to that defense and teams like Belmont and West Virginia drove on Duke all night and all day for easy baskets and kick out for wide open threes. When BELMONT has players beating you one on one, isn't it time to tweak some things and the way you play defense until to start getting those athletic recruits again!!!

Thoughts??

I posted in another thread that I think there are different reasons why we've not been quite as successful in the NCAA tournament in recent years as we were in the glory years.

I think the biggest difference between these teams and the 2004, 1999, 2001, 1991, and 1992 teams is the lack of versatility in styles. Those teams could win in a variety of ways. They could beat you inside. They could beat you from the perimeter. They could slash and create off the dribble. They force turnovers and could score in transition. They could defend in the halfcourt.

This year's team was a very talented and pretty athletic team, but lacked an inside presence (on both ends) and didn't have an elite playmaker. The 2007 team was really inexperienced and lacked an identity. The 2006 team was basically a two-man team that was undersized, lacked in athleticism and couldn't overcome the (very) rare off-night by our best offensive player. The 2005 team was a three man team that was undersized. The 2004 team was really really good but ran into a slightly better team in the Final Four. The 2003 team was really inexperienced. The 2002 team just had bad luck running into a hot team on a bad night.

The problems have been different each year. We have athletic mid-sized guys on this team (Henderson, Scheyer, Singler, Thomas, McClure). The problem is that we don't have the other components to go along with it (the post presence and the playmaker). In 2005-2006, we had the post presence and the great perimeter players, but we lacked the athletic mid-sized players.

[Bluedawg]

I still contend that Duke needs some athletic big men.

Discussing this around the grill on Easter with my brother-in-law it was brought up that the conventional wisdom is that teams win with guard play, which i quickly disagreed with. Duke's loses can be traced to not having an underneath presence. I pointed out UNC. they lost Ty, their #1 guard, and lost 1 game. What would have happened if they had lost Tyler instead...he agreed the results would have been different.

Guard play is very important, but an athletic big man ruling underneath only frees up the guard and gives them more open looks. Without an athletic big man ruling underneath the D can focus on the guards and make their life a lot harder.

[EarlJam]

I still contend that Duke needs some athletic big men.

Yes. Yes, yes.

Like the kind of big men with edge to them, that aren't afraid to put an elbow in the throat of trash talkers like Alexander from WV. That kid was running his mouth so much.

This team needs attitude and the muscle to back it up.

Calling Nate James! Calling Nate James!

-EarlJam

P.S. Attitude. Like in '92. I was in the UPPER deck of the Greensboro Colsm when Laettner pushed some Iowa kid out of bounds. Just pushed him out of bounds and yelled, "Get off me you carnal knowledging kitty cat!" He did not use the term "carnal knowledging kitty cat." It hushed the crowd.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Florida, Maryland and Syracuse among others did not make the tournament.

UConnvicts went out in the first round.

I doubt if any coach wants to win, but win his way, more than Coach K.
If he sees that changes need to be made, then he will make them.
I just hope his stubbornness does not get in the way of his vision.

SoCal

[CDu]

I still contend that Duke needs some athletic big men.

Discussing this around the grill on Easter with my brother-in-law it was brought up that the conventional wisdom is that teams win with guard play, which i quickly disagreed with. Duke's loses can be traced to not having an underneath presence. I pointed out UNC. they lost Ty, their #1 guard, and lost 1 game. What would have happened if they had lost Tyler instead...he agreed the results would have been different.

Guard play is very important, but an athletic big man ruling underneath only frees up the guard and gives them more open looks. Without an athletic big man ruling underneath the D can focus on the guards and make their life a lot harder.

We need a polished athletic big man. We actually have an athletic big man in Lance Thomas. The problem is that he's not a polished athletic big man. We also have an athletic big man coming in this class (Czyz). I have no idea whether he'll be any more polished than Thomas.

I agree though that year's team is missing that Josh McRoberts or Shelden Williams player in the middle. Either of those type of talents (just talking about the skillset, not trying to open the can of worms some have regarding McRoberts' personality) would have made this year's team MUCH more versatile and much more difficult to beat.

[CDu]

Florida, Maryland and Syracuse among others did not make the tournament.

UConnvicts went out in the first round.

I doubt if any coach wants to win, but win his way, more than Coach K.
If he sees that changes need to be made, then he will make them.
I just hope his stubbornness does not get in the way of his vision.

SoCal

Coach K has changed the style of play A LOT in recent years. In 2006, we had a half-court, grind it out type of team that focused nearly all of the offense around two players. This year's team, on the other hand, went up-tempo and spread the offense through nearly everyone. I don't think it's fair to say that Coach K is dedicating to winning "his way." He's made a lot of changes in style as necessitated by team makeup. He'll do the same next year if need be.

[Bluedawg]

Yes. Yes, yes.

Like the kind of big men with edge to them, that aren't afraid to put an elbow in the throat of trash talkers like Alexander from WV. That kid was running his mouth so much.

This team needs attitude and the muscle to back it up.

Calling Nate James! Calling Nate James!

-EarlJam

P.S. Attitude. Like in '92. I was in the UPPER deck of the Greensboro Colsm when Laettner pushed some Iowa kid out of bounds. Just pushed him out of bounds and yelled, "Get off me you carnal knowledging kitty cat!" He did not use the term "carnal knowledging kitty cat." It hushed the crowd.

I recalled this article which illistrates my point very well:

The main question revolves around Singler and the frontcourt. The truth is, if Singler didn't have to guard the largest player on the floor so often this season, then Singler is Joe Alexander on Saturday. Alexander, a strong, athletic 6-foot-8 forward, keyed West Virginia's 73-67 victory with 22 points..

Singler was worn down at season's end by all the pounding he inflicted and took on defense. Will he, Thomas, who started 28 games inside though equally lanky, and Zoubek, a 7-1 center who came on late, get any help inside next season?

[Duvall]

For the last 3-4 years, Duke has gone to a 3 guard lineup. Every big game we're in, we're being outrebounded and killed inside (WVU 45 reb, Duke 19). K built his great teams in the 80's, 90's and early 00's with 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards that could rebound, run the court, and play the man-to-man defense. (Players like Alarie, Brickey, King, G. Hill, Lang, McCleod, Battier, Carrawell, Dunleavy, Jones and Deng. We've kind of gone away from recruiting those type of players and are settling for 3 guard lineups.

...

Thoughts??

I'm not sure I understand your complaint. Duke has continued to recruit big forwards and athletic forwards; the problem is that they now don't have the post players to complement them.

[Bluedawg]

We need a polished athletic big man. We actually have an athletic big man in Lance Thomas. The problem is that he's not a polished athletic big man. We also have an athletic big man coming in this class (Czyz). I have no idea whether he'll be any more polished than Thomas.

I agree though that year's team is missing that Josh McRoberts or Shelden Williams player in the middle. Either of those type of talents (just talking about the skillset, not trying to open the can of worms some have regarding McRoberts' personality) would have made this year's team MUCH more versatile and much more difficult to beat.

Again from today's N&O:

Duke does add 6-8 big man Oleg Czyz, a native of Poland. The forward out of Reno, Nev., likes to play facing the basket, but at 235 pounds, he's thicker than everyone Duke has now except Zoubek.

That's a plus considering that West Virginia outrebounded Duke by 20 on Saturday. Czyz plays hard and attacks the hoop. He's not the traditional post threat, but adding that kind of toughness wouldn't hurt Duke.

We need one who can play with his back to the basket.

[Jumbo]

For the last 3-4 years, Duke has gone to a 3 guard lineup.

It has been way longer than three years. And this is hardly unique to Duke. UNC starts three guards (Lawson, Ellington and Ginyard.) Tennessee does (J. Smith, R. Smith, Lofton.) Texas does (Augustin, Abrams and Mason). Memphis Does (Rose, Douglas-Roberts, Anderson). I can go on -- most college teams emply three true guards in the starting lineup. And note that Dukes wings (Henderson, Nelson and Scheyer) were all big and good rebounders.

Every big game we're in, we're being outrebounded and killed inside (WVU 45 reb, Duke 19).

That's simply not true. First of all, it was 47-27 on the boards (not that such a margin is good). Secondly, the losing team generally gets out-rebounded, because the winning team makes more shots. Still, let's examine some of Duke's other big games. And we'll just stick to this year for now, knowing that this was one of Duke's smallest teams ever. Was the Clemson ACC Tourney game big? Well, Duke outrebounded Clemson, 33-30. How about Marquette? That was 37-30, Duke. We beat Carolina and Clemson getting out-rebounded. We lost to Miami despite out-rebounding them. There's no correlation there.

K built his great teams in the 80's, 90's and early 00's with 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards that could rebound, run the court, and play the man-to-man defense. (Players like Alarie, Brickey, King, G. Hill, Lang, McCleod, Battier, Carrawell, Dunleavy, Jones and Deng. We've kind of gone away from recruiting those type of players and are settling for 3 guard lineups.

Alarie, Brickey, Lang, McLeod, Battier, Dunleavy (2001-02) and Deng all played the 4 at Duke, not the 3. Is Gerald Henderson not every bit as athletic as Dahntay Jones? Was DeMarcus Nelson not every bit as versatile? He was Duke's best rebounding guard in years, maybe ever. Is Singler not in EXACTLY the same mold as Alarie, Battier, Deng, etc? Brickey was a 6'5" center. There's no change in philosophy here. If anything, Duke is bringing in MORE of these players. Next year's team will feature a ton of players in that 6'5" to 6'8" range -- Scheyer, Henderson, Pocius, E. Williams, Singler, Czyz, McClure, Thomas, King. Geez.

Also, the aggressive man-to-man defense K built his great tams with had great athletes at ever postition.

The 1997-98 team was awesome. Were Wojo and Langdon "great athletes?" How about the 1993-94 team? Would you consider Collins, Capel and Clark to be "great athletes?" Was Dunleavy even an average defender? C'mon.

While the last 3-4 year Duke teams had very skilled players, it's safe to say they, except for a couple players, aren't great athletes that can chase quicker players all over the court and stay with them or in front of them.

Really? This year's team didn't have quick players? What were Gerald and DeMarcus? Did you watch the way Scheyer defended opposing wings? Did you not see the way Lance Thomas pressured opposing players and flawlessly switched out on screens to cover guards? Singler did the same, for that matter. Nolan Smith isn't quick? McClure? Sure, Duke had a couple of slow defenders -- Paulus and King. Zoubek is 7'1" -- he's in a different category. That's normal.

Is it time to change some defensive schemes and play some zones and some junk defenses, just to help players like Zoubek, McClure, Paulus and Scheyer have better chances at stopping some teams penatration.

Um, no. Why does Scheyer need a zone to stop dribble penetration when he does a great job in man-to-man? Why does McClure? Did you watch the job he did against Alexander in the WVU game? Duke didn't lose that game due to defense. They played their best defensive half of the season in the first half, in fact. Duke just couldn't hit a shot.

Duke went into a 2-3 zone tyhe last 10 minutes of the Virginia game at Va. They held them to 5 pts over those 10 minutes and 0 pts for 6 1/2 minutes. Zoubek, Singler and Henderson also dominated the defensive glass.

Yes, the zone was nice for a stretch. I'm not opposed to going zone when the defense is struggling, but considering you are so concerned with rebounding, you must no that it's harder to rebound out of a zone in most games. Virginia just happened to take a ton of jumpers and isn't a particularly good rebounding team. I notice you aren't mentioning the times Duke went to a zone and saw it get shredded (like against Clemson).

Yet Duke never went back to that defense ...

Yes, Duke did. We saw "orange" in the ACC Tourney against both GT and Clemson. It wasn't particularly effective.

and teams like Belmont and West Virginia drove on Duke all night and all day for easy baskets and kick out for wide open threes.

Again, did you watch the WVU game? Duke gave up 29 points in the first half, and continued to play excellent D well into the first half. WVU didn't drive "all day" on Duke. In fact, they hardly ever got into the lane. Basically, they posted up Alexander, who shot 7-for-22. WVU hit four threes, one of which came from Ruoff falling out of bounds as the shot clock expired. So where were all those "open threes?" WVU got a bunch of junk baskets from offensive rebounds -- Duke played great D on those possessions and just didn't finish by grabbing the board. Duke's problem was on offense, where the team also couldn't finish. Think the flu could have been responsible for missing open jumpers and being a step late to rebounds? Just saying...

When BELMONT has players beating you one on one, isn't it time to tweak some things and the way you play defense until to start getting those athletic recruits again!!!

Thoughts??

Belmot spread the floor, ran a great passing attack and, sure, got some dribble penetration. Duke was also way more athletic than Belmont. Duke has plenty of athletes. Meanwhile, remember the Carolina game at Cameron? Somehow, supposedly without elite athletes, Duke kept Carolina out of the lane and held the Heels to 76 points on 40.8% shooting. The Heels hardly penetrated at will. Duke's got plenty of "athletes," and two more good ones are coming in next year (Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz). We all would love a power player in the middle, and we all wish Paulus were a bit quicker. But Duke's LAST problem is not having enough athleticism, particularly at the 2 through 4 positions.

[Bluedawg]

I'm not sure I understand your complaint. Duke has continued to recruit big forwards and athletic forwards; the problem is that they now don't have the post players to complement them.

We need a big center to roam with his back to the board. A forward cannot replace a big center.

[Jumbo]

I recalled this article which illistrates my point very well:

Bluedawg: Guess what Alexander's shooting line was against Duke?

[Jumbo]

We need a big center to roam with his back to the board. A forward cannot replace a big center.

Elton Brand, Shelden Williams and Carlos Boozer were all technically "forwards." Your boy Hansbrough is a forwared. He's 6'8". What do you define as a center? And Brian Zoubek is certainly big. He certainly plays with his back to the basket...

[dw0827]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is that you all think needs to be changed.

We need more 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards? We need quality big guys? We need polished athletic big men? One who can play with his back to the basket?

Jeez, of course!!! Coach K is such a dummy. What he needs to do is order a few of those from the catalog. Hmmmm . . . but which catalog? Sears? nah . . . Lands End? nah . . .

I find it laughable that you people can actually seriously say these things. Last time I looked he was actually trying to recruit exactly what you are all clamoring for. But guess what . . . we don't always get what we want. Coach K, and Duke, is not entitled to choose each and every high school player it wants. Never could. Never will.

So I ask you again, what should we change? How would you change our recruiting strategies to guarantee that we get more 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards . . . quality big guys . . . polished athletic big men . . . ones who can play with his back to the basket?

You obviously think the coaching staff isn't trying . . .

[CDu]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is that you all think needs to be changed.

We need more 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards? We need quality big guys? We need polished athletic big men? One who can play with his back to the basket?

Jeez, of course!!! Coach K is such a dummy. What he needs to do is order a few of those from the catalog. Hmmmm . . . but which catalog? Sears? nah . . . Lands End? nah . . .

I find it laughable that you people can actually seriously say these things. Last time I looked he was actually trying to recruit exactly what you are all clamoring for. But guess what . . . we don't always get what we want. Coach K, and Duke, is not entitled to choose each and every high school player it wants. Never could. Never will.

So I ask you again, what should we change? How would you change our recruiting strategies to guarantee that we get more 6'6" - 6'9" athletic forwards . . . quality big guys . . . polished athletic big men . . . ones who can play with his back to the basket?

You obviously think the coaching staff isn't trying . . .

And the crazy thing is that WE HAVE ATHLETIC 6'5"-6'9" PLAYERS!!! Singler is pretty similar to Joe Alexander - he just hit the wall late in the season. Thomas is 6'8" and really athletic. McClure is 6'6" and really athletic. Henderson is 6'5" and about as athletic as anyone in the country. Scheyer is 6'5" and can hold his own with anyone, even though he can't jump. And we're adding more of those type of players. Czyz is 6'8" and really athletic.

And we've tried to get those players consistently over the past several years. We got Deng, but he surprised and left early. We got Shelden Williams, and he was great. We recruited Humphries, but he bailed at the last minute. We landed Livingston, but he went pro. We recruited Brandan Wright, but he went to UNC. We landed McRoberts, but he left early. We had Boateng and Boykin, but they transfered.

I think the key is finding those polished, athletic big men, or getting the athletic big men and getting them polished. But as you note, it isn't as easy as saying it - it's difficult to accomplish.

[RelativeWays]

BTW, great big man =/= wins in the tournament. Ask Roy Hibbert. We were also outrebounded by a GUARD. We just need to be much more tenacious on the glass.

[yancem]

I don't think that we aren't recruiting the right type of players or we're not playing the right style of game but something was amiss at the end of the season. Up until the Wake game Duke played as well as any team in the country and I think were capable of beating any team out there, including UCLA, Kansas, Tenn and Texas. We DID beat UNC and while Lawson didn't play, I'm not sure he would have made enough of a difference to change the outcome of that game. Duke played really well.

Unfortunately, things changed after that game. I can't quite put a finger on it. I know that the struggles were primarily from poor shooting but there has to be more of a reason for several good shooters to missing so many shots besides they just weren't falling. Fatigue has been mentioned a lot but with the exception of Singler, I'm not sure I'm buying it. Nelson led the team in minutes at only 30.9 mpg. No one else even cracked 30 mpg. Singler was second on the team with 28.6 mpg and since he was a freshman and played a much more physical game than he was used to, I think his being tired was understandable. No one else should have been tired at the end of the season. Nelson, Scheyer and Paulus all played fewer minutes on the season and per game than last year.

No, somewhere or somehow the team seemed to lose their swagger and what was a team that was tough as nails became tentative at times and confused at others. My biggest concern going into next year is not the amount of talent or even the team's size, its, who is going to step up and be the man. Having 5 players score double figures is nice, but when the game is on the line, you have to have a player grab the game by the throat and take over. This year, Nelson, Paulus and Singler did that at times in the early games and Henderson and Scheyer did some later in the season but we never had the one guy who consistently said give me the ball and climb on my back. If someone doesn't take on that role next year (calling Mr. Singler, calling Mr. Henderson, or calling Mr. Scheyer) then next year very well may resemble this year, a lot of talent, a lot of wins but a short post season.

[Rudy]

Jeez, of course!!! Coach K is such a dummy. What he needs to do is order a few of those from the catalog. Hmmmm . . . but which catalog? Sears? nah . . . Lands End? nah . . .

I find it laughable that you people can actually seriously say these things. Last time I looked he was actually trying to recruit exactly what you are all clamoring for. But guess what . . . we don't always get what we want. Coach K, and Duke, is not entitled to choose each and every high school player it wants. Never could. Never will.

Exactly. Duke went after Patrick Patterson and Greg Monroe. We just didn't get them. Patterson played very well for Kentucky and would have helped immensely. McRoberts thought it was more important to develop his midcourt behind the back dribble from his freshman to his sophomore years than a consistent offensive post game and he left early (also poison to team chemistry). A kid's commitment to your program, to his development and to his teammates is harder to assess than his raw atheticism. When you get a blue chip kid who puts it all together and stays three or four years, along with other strong recruits, you get a Hansbrough or a Battier and you get a strong team for that period. Don't forget those guys are exceptional in this age.

Let's see how good UNC is without the big guy, assuming he goes into the draft. For that reason alone I hope UNC wins the whole thing. Hansbrough will have little to stay for if they do.