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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Durham, NC - Since 1985

    Georgetown vs. Duke?

    Interesting, 2 seed Duke loses to the 7 seed WVU (a tough team from a power conference) and the world is falling apart (according to the media, Duke fans, Duke haters, etc.).

    2 seed Georgetown loses to the 10 seed Davidson (from the Southern Conference) and not a wimper? Did they not seriously underperform? What is wrong with them? They went to the final four last year, have been an up and coming program, have greater talent than Davidson, the best senior big man around, etc. Clearly they must be in serious decline! The coach stinks and should revamp the staff. I wonder if their recruiting will slow down (Monroe to back out?) due to this flame out.

    A bit of jest, but you get my drift.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Tennessee
    Clearly Georgetown and UConn are on the decline, so "all their best recruits are belonging to us."

  3. #3
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    Feb 2007
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    North Carolina
    I understand why the media is going after Duke (it's not just the losses, it's when the losses happen [late in the season] and how Duke plays during these losses [very poorly]), and I understand the tone of Delaware's post.

    What I do not understand is how UConn has avoided the same type of animosity from the national media. Simply baffling.

  4. #4
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    Apr 2007
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    Atlanta, GA (Buckhead)
    Quote Originally Posted by Delaware View Post
    Interesting, 2 seed Duke loses to the 7 seed WVU (a tough team from a power conference) and the world is falling apart (according to the media, Duke fans, Duke haters, etc.).

    2 seed Georgetown loses to the 10 seed Davidson (from the Southern Conference) and not a wimper? Did they not seriously underperform? What is wrong with them? They went to the final four last year, have been an up and coming program, have greater talent than Davidson, the best senior big man around, etc. Clearly they must be in serious decline! The coach stinks and should revamp the staff. I wonder if their recruiting will slow down (Monroe to back out?) due to this flame out.

    A bit of jest, but you get my drift.
    Methinks you make an excellent point! Really. I agree.

    The only difference / counterpoint is that Duke, with the loss this year, has hit a "TREND." The Blue Devils went through several periods of winning on ridiculous levels and the "trend" became **Final Four (86 - 94), (99 - 04).

    Now it's been four years since we've made the Final Four and next year announcers will say, "It's been three years since Duke has made it to the Sweet Sixteen."

    Unless Georgetown falls flat the next couple of years (a possibility), then this year's loss could be considered a fluke or at least forgiven with Davidson being on such a roll. Coming up well short in the tourney is not yet a trend for Georgetown.

    That said, I, EarlJam believe you make an excellent point.

    -EarlJam

    **EarlJam understands that Duke did not make the Final Four each of those years. But they made it far in the tourney and TO the Final Four for many of the years listed, hence making winning on a ridiculous level a trend.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC - Since 1985

    UConn

    Yes.... I forgot, UConn missed the tourney last year, out in round one this year to a 13 seed. Calhoun must go!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Wilmington, DE & Durham, NC

    Duke is the gold standard . . .

    not Georgetown, not UConn, not anyone else. That's why everyone cares about our results. Much of it is envy. And we should want it that way. It's OK for others to lose games they shouldn't. When you aspire to be the standard against which all others are measured, you don't lose games you shouldn't. Some people have said they would be happy with the football team if they just made a bowl game every so often. K correctly pointed out that your goal is to be a champion every time. If you aim for mediocrity, you will probably fail to achieve your goal. K's goal every year is the NC. Is it unrealistic? Maybe? But why not aim to be the best? Duke is a product of its own success. Frankly, I like that success, and want more of it. I hope I am never satisfied that "we tried hard". As fans we need to be the best to support the team. As players they need to be the best to continue to merit that support. Some people don't like those standards. My passion for the team (and my criticisms) come from the establishment of lofty goals, and the continual attempt to be satisfied with nothing less.

  7. #7
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    ....and Georgetown lost a seventeen point second half lead!

  8. #8
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    Jan 2008
    Location
    Yadkinville NC
    I personally think Davidson is better than WVU, and would beat them if they played. Davidson is playing some of the best "team" ball I've seen from pretty much any team in the tournament, and I had them picked to beat G-town as I suspect many others did, and I see them making the Elite 8. Duke peaked way too early this season, and had we played WVU during midseason, we would have romped them by at least 15. I long for the years that K had us peaking going into the tournament, and not in January. I have to say this was the most frustrating Duke team I've ever watched. They showed us what they could do, and then stopped doing it. I had us picked to go out to WVU in the 2nd round simply based on the way we had been playing, something was just not right.

    Now, Duke vs Georgetown? I think earlier season Duke could beat them, but right now they would stomp Duke with Hibbert inside.

    On another note, did anyone see Dickie V complaining about Hibbert fouling out vs Davidson? He (and this is the first time I've EVER heard this) said that basketball is the only sport where a whistle can eliminate a player, and there should be a rule change to get rid of "fouling out". After 5 fouls, if said player commits another foul, it would be automatic 2 shots and the ball (similar to a technical) for the opposing team. I personally think thats ridiculous, does anyone else? Apparently he was miffed that his NC pick was leaving the tournament to an upstart #10 seed.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC

    Uconn

    I absolutely agree about UCONN, and have thought about this a lot. You could argue that over the last ten years, UCONN has been more dominant than Duke. They probably don't have quite as many regular-season wins (I haven't looked this up) but they have two national championships to our one, and I believe they've beaten us head-to-head in the tournament twice. So why is it that they don't make the tournament last year while Duke does, but Duke is considered the failure? Jim Calhoun did an American Express commercial too, but no one calls him a sellout. And what about that Marcus Williams stolen laptop situation? If that had happened at Duke, can you imagine what the response would have been?

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
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    Asheville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Clearly Georgetown and UConn are on the decline, so "all their best recruits are belonging to us."
    I laugh! Good one.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    Now, Duke vs Georgetown? I think earlier season Duke could beat them, but right now they would stomp Duke with Hibbert inside.


    A lesser Duke team beat a better Georgetown team last season. So I'm not ready to agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    On another note, did anyone see Dickie V complaining about Hibbert fouling out vs Davidson? He (and this is the first time I've EVER heard this) said that basketball is the only sport where a whistle can eliminate a player, and there should be a rule change to get rid of "fouling out". After 5 fouls, if said player commits another foul, it would be automatic 2 shots and the ball (similar to a technical) for the opposing team. I personally think thats ridiculous, does anyone else? Apparently he was miffed that his NC pick was leaving the tournament to an upstart #10 seed.


    I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I actually agree with Vitale ... to a point. Five fouls is not enough. When you pick up two fouls, which really isn't a big deal, you're in foul trouble. Everyone thinks that the ratio is equivalent to the NBA (5 fouls per 40 minutes, 6 per 48). It's not. You're really allowed four fouls in 40 minutes (one per 10) vs. 5 in 48 (one per 9.6). There are way too many stars fouling out of way too many Tournament games. Keep in mind that these kids are allowed five fouls in high school, too -- playing 32-minute games. I would push for a combination of the Vitale Rule and the NBA rule. Your fifth foul counts as a technical, and you foul out on the sixth. Yeah, it would be a big change. But I think it would help the game. Thoughts?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    not Georgetown, not UConn, not anyone else. That's why everyone cares about our results. Much of it is envy. And we should want it that way. It's OK for others to lose games they shouldn't. When you aspire to be the standard against which all others are measured, you don't lose games you shouldn't. Some people have said they would be happy with the football team if they just made a bowl game every so often. K correctly pointed out that your goal is to be a champion every time. If you aim for mediocrity, you will probably fail to achieve your goal. K's goal every year is the NC. Is it unrealistic? Maybe? But why not aim to be the best? Duke is a product of its own success. Frankly, I like that success, and want more of it. I hope I am never satisfied that "we tried hard". As fans we need to be the best to support the team. As players they need to be the best to continue to merit that support. Some people don't like those standards. My passion for the team (and my criticisms) come from the establishment of lofty goals, and the continual attempt to be satisfied with nothing less.
    I feel I must re-enforce the comments made here. I have said this many times but, again, the reason the media writes about our woes is because WE ARE DUKE AND WE ARE THE KINGS OF COLLEGE BASKETBALL.

    What would really stink would be if we lost in the first or second round of the tournament and it was not big news. I fear that day may come soon if we do not start putting up Final Four appearances again.

    One more thing to add in this thread-- I really feel for Georgetown. This was supposed to be their season. Hibbert came back just so he could lead them to the promised land (another Final Four). They never made it. Now, their stellar senior class is gone-- the imposing force in the middle (Hibbert), the steady PG who ran the show and shot lights-out from the outside (Wallace), the do-it-all 6th man who provided depth on the front line and a link to the glory days of the past (Ewing, Jr.). They all leave. Sure, Georgetown will be good again next year, but they'll be trying to do it building around a one-and-done freshman. That ain't easy.

    Classy program and a good coach. To gack away a game you felt you really should have won (we know something about blowing 17-point leads here at Duke) really stings. I feel sorta sorry for them today, ya know?

    --Jason "as for Dickie V's no foul-out option, I think it is a really bad idea. Playing good D and not fouling is an important part of basketball and is one of the traditions of the game" Evans

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Yes, Duke, a #2, loses by a handful to WVU. Gtown, a #2 is beaten by a small conference team. Tennessee, a #2 seed, should have lost to Butler if they'd only made lay-ups, and even then went to OT. Texas, a #2 seed, wins by 4 over Miami. Stanford, a #3 seed whom many argued should have gotten Duke's #2, should have lost their game and still needed OT to win. UCLA plays a Texas A&M team that had been playing horribly for about a month, and needs 2 scores in the final minute to win. Seems to me the big story would have been if Duke HAD beaten WVU easily. Ah well, next year...

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC

    Hibbert would stomp us? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    Now, Duke vs Georgetown? I think earlier season Duke could beat them, but right now they would stomp Duke with Hibbert inside.
    Sorry, but I disagree - we might lose to them but I don't know that it'd be because of Hibbert. Are you aware that he scored a grand total of SIX points against a much smaller Davidson front line? What baffles me is that he was 3-3 from the field. Uh...hello? Why did he only get 3 shots? I realize he was in serious foul trouble but that's pretty pathetic for his teammates/coaches to not get him more shots.

  15. #15
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    Jan 2008
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    Yadkinville NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree - we might lose to them but I don't know that it'd be because of Hibbert. Are you aware that he scored a grand total of SIX points against a much smaller Davidson front line? What baffles me is that he was 3-3 from the field. Uh...hello? Why did he only get 3 shots? I realize he was in serious foul trouble but that's pretty pathetic for his teammates/coaches to not get him more shots.
    One, we have NO inside presence to stop him. Lovedale did a number on Hibbert yesterday. Duke has no Lovedale, therefore I think Hibbert would have blown us up inside.

    As for Jumbo's comments, you think we could have beaten G-town had we played them this weekend? Playing the way we've been playing? If you do, I think youre a bit too optimistic. We couldn't even beat WVU, theres no way we would have taken out Georgetown.

    As for the fouls comments, I do agree with you about giving them 6 total fouls instead of 5, but I wouldn't have the technical on the 5th foul, just a flat out 6 fouls per person. Vitale's comment was they could stay in the game with no foul limit, just a T each time they fouled after 5 fouls. (at least thats what I heard in passing while he was ranting about Davidson winning, and his NC pick being ousted.)

    (Edit: I DO think earlier in the season we could beat Georgetown, when the 3 ball was falling and Coach K looked to be a genius with the "Phoenix" offense. Once the 3's stopped hitting (the net, not the rim ) we became very ordinary and I didn't see ANY adjustments by Coach K. This was the first time I can ever remember in my 26 years as a Duke fan, Coach K not really doing alot of "coaching")
    Last edited by BlueDevilJay; 03-24-2008 at 12:05 PM. Reason: adding a point!

  16. #16
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    Feb 2007
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    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    Once the 3's stopped hitting (the net, not the rim ) we became very ordinary and I didn't see ANY adjustments by Coach K. This was the first time I can ever remember in my 26 years as a Duke fan, Coach K not really doing alot of "coaching")
    Maybe it was his fever of 104 or the fact that his starters and subs were sick; crimps the style.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    One more thing to add in this thread-- I really feel for Georgetown. This was supposed to be their season. Hibbert came back just so he could lead them to the promised land (another Final Four). They never made it. Now, their stellar senior class is gone-- the imposing force in the middle (Hibbert), the steady PG who ran the show and shot lights-out from the outside (Wallace), the do-it-all 6th man who provided depth on the front line and a link to the glory days of the past (Ewing, Jr.). They all leave. Sure, Georgetown will be good again next year, but they'll be trying to do it building around a one-and-done freshman. That ain't easy.
    J,
    Make no mistake, Georgetown will be really good next year, and won't be built around a one-and-done freshman. DaJuan Summers will be a star. Chris Wright and Austin Freeman should be an excellent backcourt. Vernon Macklin is enignmatic but talented. The Hoyas return plenty, and have talent coming in. They'll be really good -- I'm glad Duke will be playing them again.

  18. #18
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    One, we have NO inside presence to stop him. Lovedale did a number on Hibbert yesterday. Duke has no Lovedale, therefore I think Hibbert would have blown us up inside.
    Lovedale is no more an inside presence than Lance Thomas, and is way smaller than Zoubek. Davidson has very little substance inside. Duke beat them in Charlotte. Duke could handle Hibbert.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    As for Jumbo's comments, you think we could have beaten G-town had we played them this weekend? Playing the way we've been playing? If you do, I think youre a bit too optimistic. We couldn't even beat WVU, theres no way we would have taken out Georgetown.
    Duke easily could have beaten Georgetown. Duke easily could have beaten West Virginia, too. Since this is a hypothetical conversation, do several Duke players have the flu in this matchup? Because that's a factor. And does Duke miss wide open shot after wide open shot, that's a factor, too. If Duke were to play West Virginia again next week, who do you think would win?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilJay View Post
    Once the 3's stopped hitting (the net, not the rim ) we became very ordinary and I didn't see ANY adjustments by Coach K. This was the first time I can ever remember in my 26 years as a Duke fan, Coach K not really doing alot of "coaching")
    I saw adjustments, but there are only so many adjustments you can make with this roster. Against Belmont, Duke started posting up Gerald Henderson in the second half -- that's a major adjustment. Against West Virginia, Duke started running a lot of set plays instead of just playing its standard set. But it didn't matter, because we weren't hitting shots. Guys still have to finish plays, and it's not like we had a lot of other areas to turn. We tried Taylor King, and he missed three open shots from downtown. We tried Zoubek in the first half, and it was clear that with West Virginia going small, this was not a good game for him (he really struggled out there, however brief it was). We tried stuff, but it's not like there were a ton of other options out there.

  19. #19
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree - we might lose to them but I don't know that it'd be because of Hibbert. Are you aware that he scored a grand total of SIX points against a much smaller Davidson front line? What baffles me is that he was 3-3 from the field. Uh...hello? Why did he only get 3 shots? I realize he was in serious foul trouble but that's pretty pathetic for his teammates/coaches to not get him more shots.
    No. 14 did not let him move at all. I am not sure of the rules of the game anymore, but the fourth foul to me said it all. What precisely was Hibbert to do with his left arm? How close to the side in wrap around fashion is legal? That went on all game. Georgetown had at least two other similar calls go against them when much bigger guys were posting up smaller guys. How can that be, I think is V's point. If the game is played like that, and creating room to move your arm is a foul, then people should not foul out. Stated otherwise, the fouls were called on the wrong people. Either let them play or don't' but don't take kids out of the game by a referee's failure to manage the game in the first place. That is my view.

    When I ws a kid we played a game called shadows. One kid would take a pose, and have to stand still. Then the other kid would take a pose and wrap himself around the other without touching. Then the first kid tries to extracate himself and then reset around the other, and so on until one of them touched. I hated that game. Still do.

    Georgetown's loss was much more stunning then Duke's. I do not think Hibbert returned to lead his team to the final four or any where else. He returned to graduate and get more seasoning. This last game will provide him with a lessen he will not forget. Sometimes seasoning ain't all it's cracked up to be.

    If you saw JTIII after the game, he was crushed. Why? He never figured out a way for Georgetown to come anywhere close to reaching its potential this season because he did not have a high pivot for his Princeton offense. Had an amazing number of terrific ball players but showed that he needs seasoning as a coach, as terrific as I think he is. He played with different scenerios but they never looked like a club that was in command in the half court, his forte. Even without Georgetown's having reached its potential, losing to Davidson was a huge upset. Should never have happened, only it did.

    That GTIII took no heat for this season is not surprising. However, it does bespeak a lack of an even playing field. He did not do anywhere near his best coaching job this season. Nor did his team play consistently well. No one said boo. How come, I do not know. BTW, I love JTIII as a coach, but like him, am disagppointed with the job he did this season, and with his team's inability to adapt to the talent at hand. I can say neither about Duke.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC - Since 1985

    I understand....

    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    not Georgetown, not UConn, not anyone else. That's why everyone cares about our results. Much of it is envy. And we should want it that way. It's OK for others to lose games they shouldn't. When you aspire to be the standard against which all others are measured, you don't lose games you shouldn't. Some people have said they would be happy with the football team if they just made a bowl game every so often. K correctly pointed out that your goal is to be a champion every time. If you aim for mediocrity, you will probably fail to achieve your goal. K's goal every year is the NC. Is it unrealistic? Maybe? But why not aim to be the best? Duke is a product of its own success. Frankly, I like that success, and want more of it. I hope I am never satisfied that "we tried hard". As fans we need to be the best to support the team. As players they need to be the best to continue to merit that support. Some people don't like those standards. My passion for the team (and my criticisms) come from the establishment of lofty goals, and the continual attempt to be satisfied with nothing less.

    That's why I said that it was a bit in jest....

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