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Thread: Perspective

  1. #1

    Perspective

    Proud member of the Class of 1998 here. First off, I want to welcome the Class of 2008 to our exclusive club: only two classes, since 1986, who didn't see Duke go to a Final Four during their four years at Duke.

    Now, let's just take a minute to realize how ridiculous that is.

    Yes, this is Duke. Yes, we have high standards. And there's nothing wrong with high standards. Some would argue that you can't win without them.

    I had never watched a college basketball game before I decided to come to Duke. I was a senior in high school, the year was 1994 and the game was Duke-Arkansas in the NCAA Championship. Talk about bad timing. But, I figured that we were Duke. We would be back in the FF to take another crack at it the next year, for sure -- right?

    Wrong. We all remember the 1994-95 season, even though we'd rather not. And I won't belabor a point I've made before, that the win in 2001 was just that much sweeter for having been on the ride for the whole damn journey, from devastating losses in 1995 to near misses in 1998 and 1999 to finally, finally that one shining moment in 2001.

    The truth? We're in a down period, for us. I'll take a down period with 50+ wins and 2 NCAA appearances over two years any day of the week over what I saw in 1994-1996, that's for sure.

    So if you want to get off the bandwagon, by all means, jump off and have a great time. I'm staying on, because this team will be back. And if recent history is any indication, it'll be that much better when they are.

    Thanks to the coaches, players, and all the staff for their hard work this year. I'm looking forward to next year, and every year after that. Go Duke!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by duke98 View Post
    So if you want to get off the bandwagon, by all means, jump off and have a great time. I'm staying on, because this team will be back.
    I think the bandwagon may lighten up a little bit. I've got a little bit of elbow room now and a place to set my drink.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham

    Perspective

    First, I really appreciate the effort that goes into maintaining this board. The news and insights are terrific. And the mods have the right to set the rules.

    Second, I am a little offended at the attempt to define a "true Duke fan." I am a season ticket holder in men's and women's basketball and FOOTBALL. (Now that takes courage, or a huge dose of masochism.) I went to games and cheered for Duke when Terry Chili, George Moses, and Willie Hodge were key elements of our program. I have put my money where my heart is. I think that has earned me the right to an opinion.

    Third, last year and this year have been obvious for a while. We had two virtually "empty trips" in the recruiting wars for 2007 and 2008. Luol was one and done, Humphries and Livingston never got here. Think that didn't hurt? Plus McRoberts (2009) apparently turned into a problem rather than a solution. (Pity--he would have fit in perfectly, talent wise, with this year's team.) I know we still got Markie and Dave McClure, but we still lost a lot from those two years.

    Fourth, I have been very critical of Nelson. He was the captain and the only senior, and as such should have been expected to be a leader, which includes making big plays. It is possible that he is not the leader type, and that it was a mistake to give him this much responsibility. Just because you are the "senior" member of the team does not necessarily mean you are the best leader. He had eight points in two games this year. But he has scored only 38 points in 9 NCAA games in his career. And I don't think he had the flu in the previous three years. Maybe the pressure is too much. Maybe he tried too hard. But the results are what they are, and unfortunately, his contribution was lacking. That doesn't make him a bad person, and doesn't mean I don't appreciate his efforts. But it is what it is.

    The Flu. This board had some fun with Ol' Roy and the reporting of injuries a little while ago. K doesn't permit excuses. I think that is right. Telling the world that your team is down with the flu psychologically tells them it is alright to lose, because you can't help it. Just like blaming the officials. No excuses--next play. So why all of a sudden is "the flu" the excuse for our bad performance?

    I actually think we will be better next year, but how much better depends on the bigs. We all love Brian, but his footwork is atrocious. His feet are too close together, they get crossed at the wrong times, and he brings the ball down. He doesn't have to be great. I give him a break this year because of the injuries. But yesterday what must he have been thinking playing two minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. And what were the coaches thinking playing him only 2 minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. Is he a problem, was he sick, is he just a stiff? I think the coaches sent him a message. I wonder what message he heard. If I were him, I would be very discouraged.

    As to getting better next year, this year's team was still VERY young. Seven freshmen and sophomores. Only one senior, one redshirt junior, and one real junior. College basketball has changed much over the years, but most players don't really develop until their junior years. We had to force feed last year's class, as well as Singler and Smith this year, because we had no alternative. The freshmen and sophomores will be stronger and more experienced. We lose Nelson, but the extra experience of the remaining players will more than make up for. The lack of a post presence is a different story. (Of course, 2006 with it's senior laden team only reached the Sweet 16, so maybe the experience won't be so much.)

    I understand that Greg is limited athletically, but I think we get everything he has to give every game. He is asked to score and be a playmaker--which is one task too many. As for his defensive liabilities, we play an overplaying defense that depends on help. I'm not good enough to know if he got beaten because he was driving his man to the help, or just because he wasn't that good. But Greg is not why we didn't win yesterday.

    Henderson has the most upside of anyone on this team. I think he needs to understand that athleticism alone is not enough. He wanted the ball in the NCAA, and tried to pull a Grant Hill. He's not that player yet. But he needs to be turned loose.

    I fear Kyle may become the second coming of Shavlik Randolph. Of necessity he plays out of position. He just got worn down this year--but that has been a tale of recent Duke teams. There must be a reason why we are so tired at year end. (See "Coaching".) I hope we don't discourage him by making him do things that are not his forte. He has enormous upside.

    Jon showed immense maturity this year. Going from starter to sixth man is a real challenge for anyone. He rose to the occasion. Nolan looked like he got a little overwhelmed at the pace of the college game. He will be fine.

    Many of us are frustrated with the playing rotation. In 1991, K took an obviously exhausted Laettner out about 1 minute before each TV time out. A nice innovation. Christian played 32 minutes, but no more than 3 or 4 at a time, and got an actual 3 to 5 minute break each time out. Enough time to get his breath and his legs. Yesterday I hear we had the flu. But a look at the box score shows the usual distribution of minutes. Smith had 12, King 4, Zoubek 2. No "blue team" substitutions. No apparent attempt to nurse extra minutes of rest by using the "Laettner" strategy. So if we were sick, why no change?

    Finally, coaching. K is a student of management. He is the CEO of an incredibly successful organization. He can look at that organization and say "over the last 25 years I have taken it from the basement to the penthouse, so a couple of down years (by our standards) are nothing to worry about." He can also look at that and say "why aren't we continuing to perform at the same level in recent years." Unfortunately, organizations never get to rest on their laurels AND maintain dominance. We were the dominant organization in college basketball. We are not now. 50-17 and 2 NCAA appearances in two seasons are not to be sneezed at. (Just ask Virginia Tech or Maryland.) But we are DUKE. For better or worse, we have been taught to expect more. K says the goal every year is a National Championship. Unrealistic, perhaps, but if your plan is be mediocre you will inevitably fail.

    What is obvious about the coaching staff is that K has surrounded himself with people who might be reticent to challenge him--three former players (five if Nate James and C-well count), and his son-in-law. This man is an icon, a HOF coach. It takes big ones to challenge him. For all of their adult lives, the assistants have known him as "Coach." From a management perspective, this can be dangerous. I really think he would benefit from bringing in an experienced former head coach, someone not looking for another gig, someone financially secure, who could "tell it like it is." While I hate to compliment Jim Calhoun, I think he made a good move to do this.

    One more point on the player rotation. Yesterday Bob Huggins played Cam Thoroughgood for nine crucial minutes. The guy played in 16 games all year, yet Huggins had faith in him in the clutch. Joe Mazzulla who averages 18 minutes, played 31 and was terrific. A 6'2" guy, he had 11 boards (about 40% of the total of our whole team). Is Huggy Bear a better coach than K? Yet he had faith in guys who weren't stars. Too many times this year I would watch Taylor King come into the game, miss a three, let a guy go by him, and then go to the pine for the rest of the game. If you can only play if you are perfect, you never get to learn.

    I've already had a warning. And if being a "true Duke fan" means sitting around singing "kumbaya" when things are not going well, then I admit to not being a "true Duke fan." This program could well be at an inflection point. Nothing is for certain in this world. You advance or you retreat. While our success in the past two decades has been exceptional, there is no question that our program is in decline. Whether it turns around depends upon whether those in charge of the program are willing to take an honest look at themselves and their stewardship. Continuing to say "all is well" will not make it so.

  4. #4

    Angry no excuses!!!

    "So why all of a sudden is "the flu" the excuse for our bad performance?"

    You know, my cousin went blind a few years ago. I still don't accept that he can't catch ball the way he used to. In fact, he's been a major disappointment in my life ever since then. Totally using his lack of vision as an excuse for his hindered athletic performance. Loser.

    And how about Jay Williams with that injury a couple years ago? I still don't get why he can't play NBA ball on that leg. Loser.

    Aren't we really owed more by these guys!? I mean, c'mon. They are, after all, superheroes.

    Let's get a grip.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SMO View Post
    "So why all of a sudden is "the flu" the excuse for our bad performance?"

    You know, my cousin went blind a few years ago. I still don't accept that he can't catch ball the way he used to. In fact, he's been a major disappointment in my life ever since then. Totally using his lack of vision as an excuse for his hindered athletic performance. Loser.

    And how about Jay Williams with that injury a couple years ago? I still don't get why he can't play NBA ball on that leg. Loser.

    Aren't we really owed more by these guys!? I mean, c'mon. They are, after all, superheroes.




    No one is saying that. It's not about being "owed" something by the players. I respect what they do each and every night. But, I am allowed to say that Nelson, for example, needs a closer. He seemingly cannot finish a shot. It's about recognizing that there are signs of trouble ahead. Like it or not, refusing to see them, like some sort of ostrich, will not make them go away.

  6. #6
    Let's see. Beating the Holes at home. At one time rated number 2 in the nation when no-one thought we would be jack-crap this year. Complaints about Demarc when he was voted DPOY in the ACC.

    Listen up. After last year this team is a breath of fresh air. If anything they over-achieved not under. And, yes, I do believe they were hit with the flu. I know the D man was for sure. And, gee, they tired early. Big surprise. You play with the flu. See how well you do.

    This has been the most enjoyable Duke team I've seen in a long time and they are going to be even better next year.

    Anyone knocking this team had better have more stiches(sp) than Singler.

    Oh, also disappointed my Saints lost today (1977 grad). They played crappy. They're a really tiny school up here in upstate NY and we really pull for them.

    Next Play!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Originally Posted by duke98 View Post
    So if you want to get off the bandwagon, by all means, jump off and have a great time. I'm staying on, because this team will be back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misunderestimated View Post
    I think the bandwagon may lighten up a little bit. I've got a little bit of elbow room now and a place to set my drink.
    All the more room for the rest of us to enjoy the ride back to the top!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bass-piscator View Post
    Let's see. Beating the Holes at home. At one time rated number 2 in the nation when no-one thought we would be jack-crap this year. Complaints about Demarc when he was voted DPOY in the ACC.

    Listen up. After last year this team is a breath of fresh air. If anything they over-achieved not under. And, yes, I do believe they were hit with the flu. I know the D man was for sure. And, gee, they tired early. Big surprise. You play with the flu. See how well you do.

    This has been the most enjoyable Duke team I've seen in a long time and they are going to be even better next year.

    Anyone knocking this team had better have more stiches(sp) than Singler.

    Oh, also disappointed my Saints lost today (1977 grad). They played crappy. They're a really tiny school up here in upstate NY and we really pull for them.

    Next Play!!




    I will agree that this team was very exciting this year... up until the last month or so. Then, the bottom fell out. It seemed as though teams figured out how to beat us. And honestly, in retrospect, it doesn't look like such a secret. I think this team did more throughout the season than anyone expected. As to the flu, I'll leave the flu comments alone. I see both sides.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The City of Brotherly Love except when it's cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    First, I really appreciate the effort that goes into maintaining this board. The news and insights are terrific. And the mods have the right to set the rules.

    Second, I am a little offended at the attempt to define a "true Duke fan." I am a season ticket holder in men's and women's basketball and FOOTBALL. (Now that takes courage, or a huge dose of masochism.) I went to games and cheered for Duke when Terry Chili, George Moses, and Willie Hodge were key elements of our program. I have put my money where my heart is. I think that has earned me the right to an opinion.

    Third, last year and this year have been obvious for a while. We had two virtually "empty trips" in the recruiting wars for 2007 and 2008. Luol was one and done, Humphries and Livingston never got here. Think that didn't hurt? Plus McRoberts (2009) apparently turned into a problem rather than a solution. (Pity--he would have fit in perfectly, talent wise, with this year's team.) I know we still got Markie and Dave McClure, but we still lost a lot from those two years.

    Fourth, I have been very critical of Nelson. He was the captain and the only senior, and as such should have been expected to be a leader, which includes making big plays. It is possible that he is not the leader type, and that it was a mistake to give him this much responsibility. Just because you are the "senior" member of the team does not necessarily mean you are the best leader. He had eight points in two games this year. But he has scored only 38 points in 9 NCAA games in his career. And I don't think he had the flu in the previous three years. Maybe the pressure is too much. Maybe he tried too hard. But the results are what they are, and unfortunately, his contribution was lacking. That doesn't make him a bad person, and doesn't mean I don't appreciate his efforts. But it is what it is.

    The Flu. This board had some fun with Ol' Roy and the reporting of injuries a little while ago. K doesn't permit excuses. I think that is right. Telling the world that your team is down with the flu psychologically tells them it is alright to lose, because you can't help it. Just like blaming the officials. No excuses--next play. So why all of a sudden is "the flu" the excuse for our bad performance?

    I actually think we will be better next year, but how much better depends on the bigs. We all love Brian, but his footwork is atrocious. His feet are too close together, they get crossed at the wrong times, and he brings the ball down. He doesn't have to be great. I give him a break this year because of the injuries. But yesterday what must he have been thinking playing two minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. And what were the coaches thinking playing him only 2 minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. Is he a problem, was he sick, is he just a stiff? I think the coaches sent him a message. I wonder what message he heard. If I were him, I would be very discouraged.

    As to getting better next year, this year's team was still VERY young. Seven freshmen and sophomores. Only one senior, one redshirt junior, and one real junior. College basketball has changed much over the years, but most players don't really develop until their junior years. We had to force feed last year's class, as well as Singler and Smith this year, because we had no alternative. The freshmen and sophomores will be stronger and more experienced. We lose Nelson, but the extra experience of the remaining players will more than make up for. The lack of a post presence is a different story. (Of course, 2006 with it's senior laden team only reached the Sweet 16, so maybe the experience won't be so much.)

    I understand that Greg is limited athletically, but I think we get everything he has to give every game. He is asked to score and be a playmaker--which is one task too many. As for his defensive liabilities, we play an overplaying defense that depends on help. I'm not good enough to know if he got beaten because he was driving his man to the help, or just because he wasn't that good. But Greg is not why we didn't win yesterday.

    Henderson has the most upside of anyone on this team. I think he needs to understand that athleticism alone is not enough. He wanted the ball in the NCAA, and tried to pull a Grant Hill. He's not that player yet. But he needs to be turned loose.

    I fear Kyle may become the second coming of Shavlik Randolph. Of necessity he plays out of position. He just got worn down this year--but that has been a tale of recent Duke teams. There must be a reason why we are so tired at year end. (See "Coaching".) I hope we don't discourage him by making him do things that are not his forte. He has enormous upside.

    Jon showed immense maturity this year. Going from starter to sixth man is a real challenge for anyone. He rose to the occasion. Nolan looked like he got a little overwhelmed at the pace of the college game. He will be fine.

    Many of us are frustrated with the playing rotation. In 1991, K took an obviously exhausted Laettner out about 1 minute before each TV time out. A nice innovation. Christian played 32 minutes, but no more than 3 or 4 at a time, and got an actual 3 to 5 minute break each time out. Enough time to get his breath and his legs. Yesterday I hear we had the flu. But a look at the box score shows the usual distribution of minutes. Smith had 12, King 4, Zoubek 2. No "blue team" substitutions. No apparent attempt to nurse extra minutes of rest by using the "Laettner" strategy. So if we were sick, why no change?

    Finally, coaching. K is a student of management. He is the CEO of an incredibly successful organization. He can look at that organization and say "over the last 25 years I have taken it from the basement to the penthouse, so a couple of down years (by our standards) are nothing to worry about." He can also look at that and say "why aren't we continuing to perform at the same level in recent years." Unfortunately, organizations never get to rest on their laurels AND maintain dominance. We were the dominant organization in college basketball. We are not now. 50-17 and 2 NCAA appearances in two seasons are not to be sneezed at. (Just ask Virginia Tech or Maryland.) But we are DUKE. For better or worse, we have been taught to expect more. K says the goal every year is a National Championship. Unrealistic, perhaps, but if your plan is be mediocre you will inevitably fail.

    What is obvious about the coaching staff is that K has surrounded himself with people who might be reticent to challenge him--three former players (five if Nate James and C-well count), and his son-in-law. This man is an icon, a HOF coach. It takes big ones to challenge him. For all of their adult lives, the assistants have known him as "Coach." From a management perspective, this can be dangerous. I really think he would benefit from bringing in an experienced former head coach, someone not looking for another gig, someone financially secure, who could "tell it like it is." While I hate to compliment Jim Calhoun, I think he made a good move to do this.

    One more point on the player rotation. Yesterday Bob Huggins played Cam Thoroughgood for nine crucial minutes. The guy played in 16 games all year, yet Huggins had faith in him in the clutch. Joe Mazzulla who averages 18 minutes, played 31 and was terrific. A 6'2" guy, he had 11 boards (about 40% of the total of our whole team). Is Huggy Bear a better coach than K? Yet he had faith in guys who weren't stars. Too many times this year I would watch Taylor King come into the game, miss a three, let a guy go by him, and then go to the pine for the rest of the game. If you can only play if you are perfect, you never get to learn.

    I've already had a warning. And if being a "true Duke fan" means sitting around singing "kumbaya" when things are not going well, then I admit to not being a "true Duke fan." This program could well be at an inflection point. Nothing is for certain in this world. You advance or you retreat. While our success in the past two decades has been exceptional, there is no question that our program is in decline. Whether it turns around depends upon whether those in charge of the program are willing to take an honest look at themselves and their stewardship. Continuing to say "all is well" will not make it so.
    A well reasoned analysis. The only point I take exception with is the comparison of Kyle to Shavlik. Kyle accomplished more this year, playing out of position, than Shav did in his career. This is not a knock on Shav, simply a reality. Continuing to play Kyle as a 4/5, however, will hinder the development of his full potential.

    I think your assessment of the coaching and management is exactly right. I would add some additional comments that I made in a earlier post.

    Coach K's mentor, the General, coached for almost 21 seasons after his third championship and returned to the final four only once. Both men value loyalty, perhaps to a fault. I don't expect any changes in the coaching staff unless one of them choses to move on.

    There is no one else I want to lead the Duke program. I simply don't think that Duke can return to the top without meaningful changes in the current approach, and I am not confident that Coach K, or anyone his age and as successful as he has been for so long, will be able to do so. I hope I am wrong, but even if not, the current state of the program is a lot better than most of the alternatives. As someone who witnessed mid 70's Duke basketball firsthand, I can say we have a lot to appreciate.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    WA State

    Bandwagoning

    Quote Originally Posted by duke98 View Post
    So if you want to get off the bandwagon, by all means, jump off and have a great time. !
    I'll stay on the wagon, thank you very much. It's been on a heck of a ride and fun. but the wagon is still a mite heavy - can we discreetly push a couple under the wheels? (Just the folks who are throwing the team under them).

    Quote Originally Posted by duke98 View Post
    Thanks to the coaches, players, and all the staff for their hard work this year. I'm looking forward to next year, and every year after that. Go Duke!
    Amen. Next play.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    All the more room for the rest of us to enjoy the ride back to the top!
    I'm calling shotgun.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    I'm calling shotgun.
    I'll join you - if you have shotgun, I guess I'll guard the flank.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by bass-piscator View Post
    Let's see. Beating the Holes at home. At one time rated number 2 in the nation when no-one thought we would be jack-crap this year. Complaints about Demarc when he was voted DPOY in the ACC.

    Listen up. After last year this team is a breath of fresh air. If anything they over-achieved not under. And, yes, I do believe they were hit with the flu. I know the D man was for sure. And, gee, they tired early. Big surprise. You play with the flu. See how well you do.
    This is the whole point. How did we go from #2 in the country to not being among the top 32 in the country? I have my ideas, as everyone does, and I don't think it's right to come down on those who are shocked that we have fallen off that far in about a month's time. Based on how we started the season we have grossly under-achieved in the past month. You really think this team overachieved? If it is the flu, that's one thing... but "Buddy" was making a really good point in his post. Where was the clock management to get our guys enough rest to do something in the second half? The obvious is staring everyone in the face: we missed something like 15 three-point shots (in a row?!?!) in the second half.

    Buddy--thanks for the great post. I don't see Singler, as someone else already said, turning into Shav. I also don't think he needs to play the 3 spot. We've had players just like Singler (Battier, Deng) spend lots of time at the 4 spot, the difference is that they had a Boozer or a Landlord in there to take on primary responsibilities for rebounding and guarding the other team's big guy. In a perfect world, I see Zoubek improving enough so that he can play alongside Singler, with Thomas coming in to spell Zoubek and play the 5 when we want to go small, instead of having only Singler at the 5 when we go small.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Denver, CO.
    I won't quote buddy's long post, but I hope he wasn't warned for anything in it. In terms of both tone and content, I think it's completely fair and legitimate, and, hopefully, what acceptable criticism on the DBR is.

    I do want to respond to this notion that Duke somehow over performed this year. I think that if you break the season down into a series of mini-seasons, as Coach K does, this really isn't the case. I can remember in 2001 when K discussed the team's goals as being a series of individual championships--Preseason NIT Champions, ACC Regular Season Champions, ACC Tournament Champions, East Regional Champions, NCAA Champions--and so I think it's appropriate to do a similar breakdown of this season.

    Maui Invitational--Champions. I don't think this is over-achieving. I think Maui was this team living up to the potential and talent it had this season. Marquette was the best team Duke played in this tournament (and a very good opponent as we saw yesterday) but they, much like Duke, are a small team that wins with pressure defense and superior guard play. In this sense, they weren't a team that could exploit Duke's weaknesses. When two teams that are essentially the same composition meet, the more talented and better coached team should win. Thus, Duke won.

    ACC Regular Season--#2. Again, the ACC regular season had this team playing right at the level it should be expected to. They lost to Carolina--a better, more well-rounded team--and on the road to two good basketball teams, one of which very nearly advanced to the Sweet 16 today. They also played a near perfect game in Chapel Hill and took out a better team. But, with State's injuries and Clemson's fatal free-throw shooting, Duke was the second best team in the ACC. Finishing second, then, is not over-achieving. It's a great accomplishment and should be celebrated as such.

    ACC Tournament--Semifinal loss. Given what we learned during the 16-game regular season, this was an under-achievement, but a mild one. Clemson, despite its poor FT shooting, is a team that matched-up well with Duke and was able to exploit Duke's weaknesses. The difference between the two teams was small enough that we had no margin for error against the Tigers. They played better and won.

    NCAA Tournament--Round of 32 loss. This was an underachievement. Flu or no flu, Duke should be beating WVU (not to knock the Mountaineers, who did finish strong in the Big East). Duke won 28 games this season (a great season by most measures) and beat many teams that were better than WVU. In the end, Huggins made some great adjustments and Duke's inability to score in the half-court doomed it. But, Duke is a better team (talent and coaching) then West Virginia, and this is a premature exit from the tournament.

    The point here is that Duke performed up to its potential for most of the season, and didn't in March. If expecting a 28-win, #2 seed to advance past the first weekend makes me one of the evil fans discussed on the DBR's front page, so be it. I don't think that's unreasonable, fickle, or spoiled. I think it's level-headed. In the same vein, if viewing our regular season as playing up to potential makes me a terrible Duke fan (and perhaps human being), so be it.

    All in all, an enjoyable season to watch. Look forward to seeing how the young players develop coming into next season.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Atlanta, GA

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by rockymtn devil View Post
    The point here is that Duke performed up to its potential for most of the season, and didn't in March. If expecting a 28-win, #2 seed to advance past the first weekend makes me one of the evil fans discussed on the DBR's front page, so be it. I don't think that's unreasonable, fickle, or spoiled. I think it's level-headed. In the same vein, if viewing our regular season as playing up to potential makes me a terrible Duke fan (and perhaps human being), so be it.

    All in all, an enjoyable season to watch. Look forward to seeing how the young players develop coming into next season.
    Thank you so much for this great post. Pretty much in line with where my thoughts are at right now, after experiencing yesterday's loss coupled with lots of DBR Bulletin Board reading.

    Every program will have its ups and downs. Alot of people have been unfairly comparing this year's team, with 8 McDonald's All-Americans, a Hall of Fame coach with 3 National Titles and the most NCAA tournament wins ever, and a 10-0 ACC start, to the Duke teams of the mid-70s. That was a very low point for Duke hoops. Perspective is good, but the people making these points are conveniently leaving out about 30 years of Duke basketball history. Additionally, the very people that are comparing this year's team to the one's in the 1970s are the same people who are saying we can't place lofty expectations on this year's group of players based on the successes of past years. It's completely hypocritical to measure our failures this year as exceeding the failures of the past, but not to allow comparisons between the potential in this year's team and the results that turned out to be far less than what most would expect.

    The results were especially frustarting and suprising coming off of last season, where the team was beaten by a fresher, more determined, less talented VCU team. If something doesn't change, we will be beaten in the first or second round by a fresher, more driven team from the MAAC, the SoCon, or the CAA next year. Like you, I am optimistic about and look forward to next year. An obvious step in the right direction was taken between this year and last, although I think alot of us though it would turn out to be bigger based on where we were in January.

    Again, thanks for your post.

  16. #16

    Perspective...

    ...is something to keep in mind when thinking about the season this year. At the beginning we were a young, inexperienced, and undersized team. DeMarkus, Greg, and Jon were our only players with significant college experience, and we started a freshman and two sophomores, none of whom had major college experience. Although Kyle made a valiant effort we had no consistent post player and were woefully undersized in the paint. And no, our lack of size was not the fault of the coaching staff, who made herculean efforts to recruit such big men as Sasha Kaun, Jon Brockman, Blake Griffin, and Patrick Patterson, among others.

    Despite these obvious deficiencies, our team went on to have a brilliant season. 28-6, 13-3 and second place in the ACC, and the #2 seed in the West is amazing IMO, given the team we had in October. The coaches devised a game plan based on the players we had that was very successful, including a magical 12-0 run from Jan. 6 to Feb. 13 when we played some beautiful basketball. Then injuries, illness, and the grind of a long season on a young team took a toll, but our guys continued to play with great passion to the best of their abilities.

    The expectations of some on the board do not seem to be based on the team we had, but rather on nostalgic memories of past glories. I hate to lose too, but unrealistic expectations lead to criticisms that are not fair to this year's team, which over-achieved based upon any objective analysis.

  17. #17
    Sorry, but this thread seems like a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks that have never played a day in their lives.

    I've LOVED this team this year.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    First, I really appreciate the effort that goes into maintaining this board. The news and insights are terrific. And the mods have the right to set the rules.

    Second, I am a little offended at the attempt to define a "true Duke fan." I am a season ticket holder in men's and women's basketball and FOOTBALL. (Now that takes courage, or a huge dose of masochism.) I went to games and cheered for Duke when Terry Chili, George Moses, and Willie Hodge were key elements of our program. I have put my money where my heart is. I think that has earned me the right to an opinion.

    Third, last year and this year have been obvious for a while. We had two virtually "empty trips" in the recruiting wars for 2007 and 2008. Luol was one and done, Humphries and Livingston never got here. Think that didn't hurt? Plus McRoberts (2009) apparently turned into a problem rather than a solution. (Pity--he would have fit in perfectly, talent wise, with this year's team.) I know we still got Markie and Dave McClure, but we still lost a lot from those two years.

    Fourth, I have been very critical of Nelson. He was the captain and the only senior, and as such should have been expected to be a leader, which includes making big plays. It is possible that he is not the leader type, and that it was a mistake to give him this much responsibility. Just because you are the "senior" member of the team does not necessarily mean you are the best leader. He had eight points in two games this year. But he has scored only 38 points in 9 NCAA games in his career. And I don't think he had the flu in the previous three years. Maybe the pressure is too much. Maybe he tried too hard. But the results are what they are, and unfortunately, his contribution was lacking. That doesn't make him a bad person, and doesn't mean I don't appreciate his efforts. But it is what it is.

    The Flu. This board had some fun with Ol' Roy and the reporting of injuries a little while ago. K doesn't permit excuses. I think that is right. Telling the world that your team is down with the flu psychologically tells them it is alright to lose, because you can't help it. Just like blaming the officials. No excuses--next play. So why all of a sudden is "the flu" the excuse for our bad performance?

    I actually think we will be better next year, but how much better depends on the bigs. We all love Brian, but his footwork is atrocious. His feet are too close together, they get crossed at the wrong times, and he brings the ball down. He doesn't have to be great. I give him a break this year because of the injuries. But yesterday what must he have been thinking playing two minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. And what were the coaches thinking playing him only 2 minutes in a game where we got outrebounded by 20. Is he a problem, was he sick, is he just a stiff? I think the coaches sent him a message. I wonder what message he heard. If I were him, I would be very discouraged.

    As to getting better next year, this year's team was still VERY young. Seven freshmen and sophomores. Only one senior, one redshirt junior, and one real junior. College basketball has changed much over the years, but most players don't really develop until their junior years. We had to force feed last year's class, as well as Singler and Smith this year, because we had no alternative. The freshmen and sophomores will be stronger and more experienced. We lose Nelson, but the extra experience of the remaining players will more than make up for. The lack of a post presence is a different story. (Of course, 2006 with it's senior laden team only reached the Sweet 16, so maybe the experience won't be so much.)

    I understand that Greg is limited athletically, but I think we get everything he has to give every game. He is asked to score and be a playmaker--which is one task too many. As for his defensive liabilities, we play an overplaying defense that depends on help. I'm not good enough to know if he got beaten because he was driving his man to the help, or just because he wasn't that good. But Greg is not why we didn't win yesterday.

    Henderson has the most upside of anyone on this team. I think he needs to understand that athleticism alone is not enough. He wanted the ball in the NCAA, and tried to pull a Grant Hill. He's not that player yet. But he needs to be turned loose.

    I fear Kyle may become the second coming of Shavlik Randolph. Of necessity he plays out of position. He just got worn down this year--but that has been a tale of recent Duke teams. There must be a reason why we are so tired at year end. (See "Coaching".) I hope we don't discourage him by making him do things that are not his forte. He has enormous upside.

    Jon showed immense maturity this year. Going from starter to sixth man is a real challenge for anyone. He rose to the occasion. Nolan looked like he got a little overwhelmed at the pace of the college game. He will be fine.

    Many of us are frustrated with the playing rotation. In 1991, K took an obviously exhausted Laettner out about 1 minute before each TV time out. A nice innovation. Christian played 32 minutes, but no more than 3 or 4 at a time, and got an actual 3 to 5 minute break each time out. Enough time to get his breath and his legs. Yesterday I hear we had the flu. But a look at the box score shows the usual distribution of minutes. Smith had 12, King 4, Zoubek 2. No "blue team" substitutions. No apparent attempt to nurse extra minutes of rest by using the "Laettner" strategy. So if we were sick, why no change?

    Finally, coaching. K is a student of management. He is the CEO of an incredibly successful organization. He can look at that organization and say "over the last 25 years I have taken it from the basement to the penthouse, so a couple of down years (by our standards) are nothing to worry about." He can also look at that and say "why aren't we continuing to perform at the same level in recent years." Unfortunately, organizations never get to rest on their laurels AND maintain dominance. We were the dominant organization in college basketball. We are not now. 50-17 and 2 NCAA appearances in two seasons are not to be sneezed at. (Just ask Virginia Tech or Maryland.) But we are DUKE. For better or worse, we have been taught to expect more. K says the goal every year is a National Championship. Unrealistic, perhaps, but if your plan is be mediocre you will inevitably fail.

    What is obvious about the coaching staff is that K has surrounded himself with people who might be reticent to challenge him--three former players (five if Nate James and C-well count), and his son-in-law. This man is an icon, a HOF coach. It takes big ones to challenge him. For all of their adult lives, the assistants have known him as "Coach." From a management perspective, this can be dangerous. I really think he would benefit from bringing in an experienced former head coach, someone not looking for another gig, someone financially secure, who could "tell it like it is." While I hate to compliment Jim Calhoun, I think he made a good move to do this.

    One more point on the player rotation. Yesterday Bob Huggins played Cam Thoroughgood for nine crucial minutes. The guy played in 16 games all year, yet Huggins had faith in him in the clutch. Joe Mazzulla who averages 18 minutes, played 31 and was terrific. A 6'2" guy, he had 11 boards (about 40% of the total of our whole team). Is Huggy Bear a better coach than K? Yet he had faith in guys who weren't stars. Too many times this year I would watch Taylor King come into the game, miss a three, let a guy go by him, and then go to the pine for the rest of the game. If you can only play if you are perfect, you never get to learn.

    I've already had a warning. And if being a "true Duke fan" means sitting around singing "kumbaya" when things are not going well, then I admit to not being a "true Duke fan." This program could well be at an inflection point. Nothing is for certain in this world. You advance or you retreat. While our success in the past two decades has been exceptional, there is no question that our program is in decline. Whether it turns around depends upon whether those in charge of the program are willing to take an honest look at themselves and their stewardship. Continuing to say "all is well" will not make it so.
    I think this might be the best post of the year.

    Coach K expects to win a NC each year. Why shouldn't we then?
    Grove, at Intel, stated only the paranoid survive. We constantly need to reexamine and improve. Duke had a nice run between 1998-2004. Coack K needs to reinvent Duke again.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by bass-piscator View Post
    Sorry, but this thread seems like a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks that have never played a day in their lives.

    I've LOVED this team this year.
    Do you think that everyone here is disappointed because we HATED the team this year?

    I've played many days of basketball in my life. That has nothing to do with one's love or knowledge of Duke hoops, though.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Waynne View Post
    ...is something to keep in mind when thinking about the season this year. At the beginning we were a young, inexperienced, and undersized team. DeMarkus, Greg, and Jon were our only players with significant college experience, and we started a freshman and two sophomores, none of whom had major college experience.

    Then injuries, illness, and the grind of a long season on a young team took a toll, but our guys continued to play with great passion to the best of their abilities.

    The expectations of some on the board do not seem to be based on the team we had, but rather on nostalgic memories of past glories. I hate to lose too, but unrealistic expectations lead to criticisms that are not fair to this year's team, which over-achieved based upon any objective analysis.
    Get out of the 80's-- it's new era in college ball. The National POY is gonna be a freshman for two years in a row now. The best Duke team I've ever seen, the 1999 team, started 3 sophomores, one junior and one senior. Not that different from this year's team of one frosh, two sophomores, one junior, and one senior, huh?

    The regular season, though long, is designed by Coach K himself, and known at the beginning of the year. With the expection of a few extra games, it's the same length as it was 30 years ago. We've gotta start managing it better, because we've been tired at the end of every season for the past few years. If you look back over past glories, you'll see that Coach K didn't have such a tight grip on who was allowed to actually get in the game and play. Can you tell me honestly that Marty Clark, Ricky Price, or Mike Chappell would get minutes today?

    Any objective anaylsis would tell you that the team did not play "Duke Basketball" in the second half of the W. Virginia game yesterday.

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