Duke: living more on its faded glory than on current success

[dukie8]

The point was about the article (an its implications affecting recruiting). If anything, UNC's bad stretch with Doherty as the coach would have even caused bigger problems in recruiting- but it did not. Also are you saying Duke lost to 2 sub 300 teams this season - Pitt (Big East Tourney Champ), Wake (not a good team), Miami (NCAA team), UNC (ACC Champs x2) and Clemson ( NCAA team)?

no. i was referring to the fact that belmont lost to campbell and kennesaw st, both of which are sub 300 in the rpi. i'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish by rattling off the teams that duke lost to.

[greybeard]

I think what the NYT writer is saying is that Duke is no longer the pre-eminent program, which is not an unjustified conclusion. These things ebb and flow - for now Carolina appears to have returned to the top of the roost in the ACC as it did during Dean's last surge post-1992 and we know that did not last.

But just because nothing lasts forever does not mean it will not come back.

As someone who had his initial exposure to Duke basketabll during the grim 1972-76 years, it appeared after 1980, 1986, and the dark times of 1994-95 that Duke might be heading back into the early 70s abyss and rallied.

As long as K is the coach Duke will be in the mix

Serious question: do you think more people watch Carolina play [you file in the blank] or Duke play the same team? This year I say it is Duke.

The only guys on Carolina I would go out of my way to watch are Hansbrough and Ellington. I'd rather watch Singler than Hansbrough, and much rather watch any of three other players on Duke (Markie, Scheyer, and Gerald) over Ellington. The rest of the guys on Carolina, including Lawson, I wouldn't pay a nickel to watch.

When both teams are playing well, which team is better? Which team is more interesting to watch? I think that the answer to both is Duke. The second one is not even in the same universe.

Carolina has won more games, and has beaten Duke twice and lost only once. Carolina might win the NCAA Championship. Duke is much less likely to. Pre-eminent should be made of sterner stuff, imo.

[Wander]

I don't think anyone believes that Duke is as dominant as it was in the early 90's. I'm just tired of people overreacting to one game. Duke wins in Maui or beats UNC on the road, and the program is back to its old ways. Duke loses to Wake Forest or plays close with Belmont, and the team is exposed and the program is on the decline. It's lazy as hell...

[Atlanta Duke]

Serious question: do you think more people watch Carolina play [you file in the blank] or Duke play the same team? This year I say it is Duke.

The rest of the guys on Carolina, including Lawson, I wouldn't pay a nickel to watch.

The Yankees are probably still a bigger ratings magnet than any team except possibly the Red Sox, but that does not make them the clearly pre-eminent baseball team. If TV ratings were the test American Idol would be the pre-eminent artistic achievement of our time.

All I am saying is the articles on Duke not being the sole superpower in college ball after one trip past the Sweet Sixteen in the last 6 tournaments are not unjustified

[mapei]

She could have written a column that did a service to the Belmont team, which was no different than a hundred Princeton teams of yore, who put the fear of G-d into such teams as Pat Ewing's Georgetown team when JTIII the player came within a point or two of sticking it to Pops big time.

For the record, neither Patrick Ewing, who graduated from Georgetown in 1985, nor John Thompson III, who graduated from Princeton in 1988, played in that game.

The game took place in 1989, and Georgetown was led by Alonzo Mourning and Charles Smith. I believe that JT3 was neither playing nor coaching but in business at the time.

[greybeard]

For the record, neither Patrick Ewing, who graduated from Georgetown in 1985, nor John Thompson III, who graduated from Princeton in 1988, played in that game.

The game took place in 1989, and Georgetown was led by Alonzo Mourning and Charles Smith. I believe that JT3 was neither playing nor coaching but in business at the time.

I believe that you will find that III played against II in the playoffs and almost beat him. I could be wrong, but the point would still be valid. Alonzo, the African, Charles against princeton.

[sagegrouse]

We have to look at ourselves clearly, I think, in order to understand where we've been and where we're going. Honest appraisals are necessary.

I think these particular issues (the diminishing aura, the lack of fear from opponents, the endemic hatred), are, in fact, stongly relevant, interwoven and even symbiotic with internal, systemic issues (recruiting, end of season fatigue, poor recent post-season performances).

These are strong views and intensely expressed.

If I can apply a modest amount of textual criticism, I have no trouble with understanding the first two-thirds of what you say: "reduced aura and lack of fear from opponents" are in a kind of feedback loop with recruiting (poor, you mean?), end-of-season fatigue (not enough good players or ineffective coaching?), and poor recent post-season performances (i.e., no FF since 2004, although through 2006 we had a phenomenal ACC tourney record).

What does any of this have to do with Duke hatred? First, the "hatred" isn't "endemic" unless Duke hatred is the only kind of hatred there is. (E.g., "The yellow-billed magpie is endemic to California." [Found only there.]) Maybe you meant "intense hatred." FWIW, I think Duke is hugely popular with the general public and casual fan and, therefore, reviled by some b-ball fans that root hard for another school. And, of course, it's the latter group that publish all these ignorant blogs and on-line postings. ("Ignore those little people behind the curtain.") I prefer to think of Duke hatred, to the extent it exists, as a kind of jealousy of the program. In which case, "Vive Duke hatred!"

But back to the part I think I understand. If the players are no good (or not as good), then the reduced aura and lack of fear from opponents is a pretty obvious connection. And if the aura is diminished, then it may be more difficult to recruit.

Seems pretty obvious, but I am not sure I buy it.

Isn't the Duke program allowed to have a down year without being toppled as a premier program? Last year's team was severely handicapped because of youth -- all the freshmen, the Paulus injury and consequent average performance, and the failure of McRoberts to blossom into the second coming of Laettner. (And I think the 2005-2006 team was an overachiever -- there was almost no help for JJ and Shel -- winning the ACC was a bit of a miracle.)

I think this team is a lot better than last year's and properly representative of Duke. And it should be even better next year, if the losses are confined to Markie. Maybe the team will lose tomorrow and maybe it won't make the FF but then maybe it will do both. But this has been an exciting team that won almost all its 13 conference wins by double digits.

I can't share your concerns, although I understand that is really fun to make the FF every year, to be ranked #1, and to dominate the ACC.

sagegrouse

[greybeard]

The Yankees are probably still a bigger ratings magnet than any team except possibly the Red Sox, but that does not make them the clearly pre-eminent baseball team. If TV ratings were the test American Idol would be the pre-eminent artistic achievement of our time.

All I am saying is the articles on Duke not being the sole superpower in college ball after one trip past the Sweet Sixteen in the last 6 tournaments are not unjustified

I haven't seen any such article. Saying that Duke is not a pre-eminent college basketball team, which is what the chick said, is ignorant, in my opinion.

You haven't answered any of my other questions? I take it then that you agree with me. That at its best, Duke is superior to Carolina at its best. Yes or no? It is reasonable to say that Carolina is better. I do not think that that is the case, and I bet at least half the 1-A coaches would agree with that.

Carolina playing its less than A game beats Duke playing its less than A game. Carolina has more margin for error, that is, has BIGGER and more athletic front court players. That's it. Roy can stock pile em. Period.

Add McRoberts and I say that Duke is the superior team, as in vastly. Carolina can keep Wright, who was NEVER a college player to begin with. With McRoberts, Duke would be the best team in the Country, by far. You disputing this?

No one would argue that McRoberts was ready to come out, and no one with a brain, which McRoberts has, would have left, had it not been for his legitimate concern about his back. Even with a troubled back, McRoberts' shot-blocking, man-up and help defense, outlet passing, catch and dunk offense, and passing ability would have made this team a killer. One for the ages! Way better than the competition. You arguing with this, or not!!!!

[Atlanta Duke]

I haven't seen any such article. Saying that Duke is not a pre-eminent college basketball team, which is what the chick said, is ignorant, in my opinion.

You haven't answered any of my other questions? I take it then that you agree with me. That at its best, Duke is superior to Carolina at its best. Yes or no? [/B]

My original link in this thread was not to "the chick" (amazed you were not sent to a re-education camp at the Gothic Wonderland for that mindset but to The New York Times article that stated as follows:

Duke lost in the first round last season to Virginia Commonwealth, and this narrow victory was yet another sign that the days of the Blue Devils being college basketball’s pre-eminent men’s program appear to be fading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/sp...sq=duke&st=nyt

The NYT article did not state Duke was not a pre-eminent program; it stated Duke was fading as the pre-eminent program - do you disagree?

To answer your question regarding Carolina, IMO Carolina at its best has been better than Duke at its best on average post-2004 and certainly better this year - being able to recruit competent power players over 6'6" tends to achieve that goal.

As for adding McRoberts, why not say what if Patterson would have committed or Hansborough would have left last year? In the words of the great basketball coach Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. Recruiting for the front line has not gone as well as it could have the last several years and Duke is experiencing the consequences.

[runanhide21]

I think one of the previous posters in this thread said it best when he quoted what Boeheim said about the fact that there will never be another GREAT college basketball team (even though as much as it pains me to say this because my hatred for Joakim Noah borders on that for the North Carolina basketball team, I have to say the Florida teams of the past 2 years were pretty darn good)...Look, I love Duke as much if not more than anyone in the world but I have to say that the past 2 year's teams do not have that fire, that killer instinct that left with JJ and Shelden in my opinion...I look to the sidelines and I dont see K getting in people's faces and you know what, I think thats what these guys need...They are f-ing Duke University, they need to put that jersey on and remember who wore it in the past and go out there with the idea that they want to beat everyone that takes the court with them by 20+...I know that it doesn't matter if you win by 1 or 100 but you know what, as a Duke fan, I don't want to hear that from the players...I want them to be honest and say what they are thinking which is "We should have beat the tar out of Belmont, they have no business being on the same floor as us, etc."

And you know what I think is the most frustrating thing about this season? They PLAYED like with that type of fire and that type of killer attitude in every game through the UNC win at Chapel Hill...They stepped on the court with the goal to drop 90+ points on anyone they could and they darn near did...and then, for whatever reason, that fire was gone and who the heck knows where it went...I have NOT seen them play a game the same way they played that UNC game for the rest of the season, period...And I am telling you all, if Coach K gets in their faces and lets them know this, I can see them getting it back, because there is intensity there, there is fire but someone needs to wake it up again...I mean when DeMarcus went to the line last night for a 1-1 at the end to make is a 2 or 3 point game, who else besides me just knew he would miss the front end of that 1-1? If you took one look at his face, you knew he was nervous and was going to miss that shot...That, to me, is terrifying as a Duke fan because as a senior, as your leading scorer, and as your team leader, who else would you want on the line at the end of the game? Well, for me, I don't think DeMarcus is that guy anymore, and it hurts me to say that because I love him and I think he is a different player away from that free throw line...

Bottom line is really this though, they DID advance and I personally feel at this point that they have one of the best chances of any 2 seed to get to the elite 8 (WVU tomorrow, and then either WKU or SD in the Sweet 16) but not unless they bring the attitude that they had the beginning of the year, that we all love to see and that we love to have as Duke fans...

[dukelifer]

no. i was referring to the fact that belmont lost to campbell and kennesaw st, both of which are sub 300 in the rpi. i'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish by rattling off the teams that duke lost to.

I read a "that" as an "and" and thought you referring to Duke. Your point is well taken. UNC never almost lost to a team in the tourney with 2 losses to sub 300 teams.

[mapei]

I believe that you will find that III played against II in the playoffs and almost beat him. I could be wrong, but the point would still be valid. Alonzo, the African, Charles against princeton.

This is a tangent, but JT2's teams never played Princeton while JT3 was on the Princeton team. The game that everyone remembers was a 50-49 near-upset in 1989 that was saved only by freshman Alonzo Mourning's last-second blocked shot. It is the closest a 16th seed has ever come to beating a #1, and it is still talked about. Georgetown has played Princeton since, but only only after JT3 graduated.

It's possible that you are remembering 1999, when Georgetown lost to Princeton in the NIT. JT3 was an assistant on that Princeton team, but the elder Thompson had been replaced mid-season that year by Craig Esherick. That was the first time that Georgetown played Princeton after the 1989 near-upset.

I agree that none of this affects your point. Just clearing the record.

[merry]

This is a tangent, but JT2's teams never played Princeton while JT3 was on the Princeton team. The game that everyone remembers was a 50-49 near-upset in 1989 that was saved only by freshman Alonzo Mourning's last-second blocked shot. It is the closest a 16th seed has ever come to beating a #1, and it is still talked about.

The thing I remember about Georgetown in the 1989 NCAAs was they advanced to the regional final where they lost to #2 seed Duke.

[mgtr]

All this faded glory junk (bear in mind that it is a brand name of Walmart!) is just another way of saying "What have you done for me lately?" Such people have small minds, and cannot encompass the larger picture, where a team consistently wins for many years (where their coach has over 800 wins!) and thinks that if you don't win this year, you have slipped down into the muck. Duke (and yes, other team such as UK and UNC) have established consistent records over the years which will never be equalled by upstarts such as Memphis.

[Rich]

as a senior, as your leading scorer, and as your team leader, who else would you want on the line at the end of the game?

Lindsey Harding? (sorry, that was uncalled for)

[Lauderdevil]

With a young team, little size, and no superstar, Duke is 28-5 so far this year. We ranked in the top 10 all season, rising as high as 2. Got a 2 seed in the Tournament. Folks, whether or not we are *the* predominant program, we're still in the glory years. The day will come when Duke is not one of the dominant programs -- it has happened to everyone: UCLA basketball, Notre Dame football, the New York Yankees, and yes, the Green Bay Packers. When those days come we'll reminisce about seasons like this one, when a young team scrapped and outperformed to take a team further than anyone expected. There were not too many games I've enjoyed more than this year's Wisconsin blowout, or the Dean Dome Carolina game. I took Duke to the national championship in my brackets this year -- heart over head, perhaps, but something I still view as possible. I'm just glad to have a team where that ember of possibility still glows. Ask your friends at NC State or Michigan if they would like to still have that dream.

[devildownunder]

Maybe it's just my age, but today's basketball, pro or college, in the main bores me. If I see another highlight dunk that does not involve a glass of milk and a doughnut, ugh.

So, this year I find something remarkably interesting in the game--intelligent, creative, exciting, skilled, coordinated, to go on top of the usual things that people here have come to expect from K teams, which I won't even try to enumerate, all of which contribute to winning, which also bores me, but that's another matter.

I see the elegant game that basketball was in my youth squared; it left me agape--never saw such stuff in my life. You have someone who wants to argue otherwise, I'd love to hear it. Certainly, I'd just love it if that chick who wrote that article would try to take this issue on.

So, you think that Duke has lost something when they don't have Brand, Boozer and JWill, not to mention a host of other pro or pro caliber players on the same team, and I think that none of those teams have captured the game the way this one has. One of us is nuts then, right, you with me so far. Now, if I began by saying it was me, no one would have read one word, because for the first time in history everyone on this board would have been on the same page. Who, I ask you, would have wanted that? So the est of you are nuts and me, I am sane. Now we got us a discussion, right?

From my perspective, the star qualify of Duke or any other team is far less interesting, exciting, stimulating, then when I see a Hall of Fame Coach throw away the play book of so many past years, learn from his peers, and have a group of high quality players who are new or relatively new to the college game deploy like they were the freakin NY Knicks of 1969, only more creatively.

If Dave Debushere (spelling ugh), may he rest in peace, could see Kyle play, he would envy him his grace, his good looks, and see in this kid a modern version of himself, only Kyle is just 19 and Dave would be seeing with the eyes of a seasoned pro, the best at what he did, which was just about everything, on one of history's greatest teams.

Now maybe Kyle will never get to win two championships in the pros the way David did. But, Kyle is the smartest, most versatile, most even tempered, most fearless, most talented 6'8" player you will see. No, no he does not have LeBron's body, nobody does, but come on, if you don't think that you've been watching something extraordinary in Duke history in watching Kyle then, how can I put this nicely, one of us is nuts.

And, if you watched DeMarcus this year and were not stone cold in awe of all that he brought to the court against anybody and everybody, then ditto.

Scheyer, what are they going to say about Scheyer that has not been said before. Gerald, Greg, have they not left you completely stunned? I don't mean excited, I mean stunned?

Then you see a guy like Zman, playing on one foot, living to get out on the court and contribute, even while he is severely hamperedl; and a warrier like McClure, the best defender in the ACC last year, recovering, playing a lesser roll, and he too contributes. Smith, this kid could well be a pro; he sits and watches guys from Belmont who you will never hear about again and who if their coach had to choose would choose Smith 10 out of 10 times over them as they play and he sits.

Me, I live in today's world, which for the most part disappoints. Not Duke basketball, not this year it hasn't. Not by a long shot. Call me "nuts," if you like Phillie, but this year's team was great; win, lose or draw they set the mark by which the game is to be judged. That, sir, is my position, and I am sticking to it.

Shane, Boozer, Brand, JWill, Grant, and maybe even Christian, you ask them; why do I think that none would disagree.

This year's team set the mark by which the game is to be judged?

Please tell me this is sarcasm. This year's duke team, when healthy, is a good team, an exciting team, a tough team to play and a fun team to watch, but they have never left me in awe. This post left me in awe.

[Lulu]

Without debating the merits of the argument, I think the big difference in the public's perception of Duke, compared to UCLA, KY, UNC..., is that those programs go beyond the coach, while Coach K IS the Duke program. I think this is a broad perception that likely does/will affect recruiting etc down the road. Being a smaller private school is never going to help that perception either. Is it not fair to say that it is easier to imagine a recruit wanting to play for UNC over Duke, but similarly for Coack K over Roy? Or, a player goes to UNC because they want to play for UNC, they go to Duke because they want to play for Coach K.

So as goes Coach K, as goes Duke to an extent. I admittedly cringe every time ESPN decides to mention K's birthdays - it's true, so I guess I can't feel too bad saying it. We all know that K isn't coaching into his 90's, so at some point he will have to retire and my gut just tells me that it's going to take a dominant season a few years beyond K's shadow to change this sentiment about the Duke program.

[wisteria]

Without debating the merits of the argument, I think the big difference in the public's perception of Duke, compared to UCLA, KY, UNC..., is that those programs go beyond the coach, while Coach K IS the Duke program. I think this is a broad perception that likely does/will affect recruiting etc down the road. Being a smaller private school is never going to help that perception either. Is it not fair to say that it is easier to imagine a recruit wanting to play for UNC over Duke, but similarly for Coack K over Roy? Or, a player goes to UNC because they want to play for UNC, they go to Duke because they want to play for Coach K.

So as goes Coach K, as goes Duke to an extent. I admittedly cringe every time ESPN decides to mention K's birthdays - it's true, so I guess I can't feel too bad saying it. We all know that K isn't coaching into his 90's, so at some point he will have to retire and my gut just tells me that it's going to take a dominant season a few years beyond K's shadow to change this sentiment about the Duke program.

Lulu, I think you nailed one of the reasons. We had good coaches before K. Bubas, Foster...But Duke was never much of a powerhouse. K made Duke basketball. No matter we admit it or not, people expect us as a one-time wonder, except that this is a 30-something year wonder. Meaning, Duke falls when K retires. We might have to wait till that day, the day we still have great teams/ great performance without K, to change people's perception about us.

[Atlanta Duke]

Lulu, I think you nailed one of the reasons. We had good coaches before K. Bubas, Foster...But Duke was never much of a powerhouse.

His record of course does not compare to that of K (only Coach Wooden leaves K in the dust) but this excerpt from Wikipedia (I think the facts are good although with Wiki you never know) indicates Vic Bubas made Duke what would seem to be a powerhouse during the 1960s.

As his program progressed, Duke would finish in the AP Top-10 basketball poll in seven of his ten seasons. He led Duke to the NCAA Final Four three times (1963, 64 and 66). His teams finished first in league play on four occasions and won four ACC championships, competing in the ACC Tournament championship game in eight of his ten seasons. Bubas led Duke to a 213-67 record, which was the 3rd-highest win total in America during the Sixties. His .761 winning percentage ranks tenth all-time among NCAA coaches.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Bubas

K obviously is the greatest Duke coach and there will be a drop-off when he leaves, but the Duke brand does have some independent value - IMO we are not talking UNLV post-Tark here