Anyone care to help: I'm in an online argument about Duke getting all the calls

[oldnavy]

Go to the ACC stat sheet, UNC leads the league in FTA at 710, Duke is second with 641, a difference of 69 attempts., then look at how the disparity grows from there...the numbers don't lie. But yet the preception that we get all the calls lives on despite the hard facts... stop arguing with them, my dad used to say that when you are arguing with an idiot, just make sure that they are not doing the same!

1.Florida State.... 27 417 536 .778
2.North Carolina... 27 537 710 .756
3.Miami........ 25 410 565 .726
4.Maryland....... 27 428 601 .712
5.NC State....... 26 440 623 .706
6.Virginia....... 24 352 500 .704
7.Boston College... 24 376 543 .692
8.Georgia Tech.... 24 356 515 .691
9.Duke........ 25 439 641 .685
10.Virginia Tech.... 26 390 574 .679
11.Wake Forest..... 24 322 483 .667
12.Clemson...... 26 318 509 .625

[Classof06]

This is not an argument you're going to win. And it's not an argument worth winning, either.

[devildeac]

Go to the ACC stat sheet, UNC leads the league in FTA at 710, Duke is second with 641, a difference of 69 attempts., then look at how the disparity grows from there...the numbers don't lie. But yet the preception that we get all the calls lives on despite the hard facts... stop arguing with them, my dad used to say that when you are arguing with an idiot, just make sure that they are not doing the same!

1.Florida State.... 27 417 536 .778
2.North Carolina... 27 537 710 .756
3.Miami........ 25 410 565 .726
4.Maryland....... 27 428 601 .712
5.NC State....... 26 440 623 .706
6.Virginia....... 24 352 500 .704
7.Boston College... 24 376 543 .692
8.Georgia Tech.... 24 356 515 .691
9.Duke........ 25 439 641 .685
10.Virginia Tech.... 26 390 574 .679
11.Wake Forest..... 24 322 483 .667
12.Clemson...... 26 318 509 .625

also remember that when you are arguing with a complete and total idiot, they are more experienced and more qualified than you are(hopefully).

[should_be_working]

honestly why bother arguing? i know its hard to keep your mouth shut, i've been arguing for years but i have come realize its an argument you'll never win. Instead of arguing, i just sarcastically go along which usually shuts them up because its not as much fun to argue with someone like that. Example: people (mainly my husband) are always saying coach k pays the refs, i laugh and then when there's a blatantly bad call against duke i say "well i guess coach k didn't open his wallets enough tonight" - thereby avoiding an argument and still somewhat getting my point across - how can you argue someone who is technically agreeing with you? works every time!

[hondoheel]

Yeah, people say Hansbrough travels all the time too, but if you watch him in slo-mo, he really doesn't walk a lot. That's why there aren't videos of him on Youtube making plays with uncalled walks pointed out. The one exception I've seen this year was when he dunked on Kenny George, he did take an extra couple steps on that play.

[Carlos]

EarlJam, I did mention that all of Duke's starters fouled out in the Wake Forest Game. The response I received:

"Because they were down 10 the whole end of the game, and fouling to stop the clock? I see you didn't watch the game, or you would have known that was the explanation."

Despite the adage about wrestling with a pig I'll address some of this -

It is incorrect to say that Duke's starting lineup fouled out because they were fouling to stop the clock. It's also incorrect to say that they were down 10 the whole end of the game.

Go to the box score on www.goduke.com and you can see the play by play which shows that Duke didn't start intentionally fouling to stop the clock until the 1:54 mark of the game at which point Duke had already been called for 14 team fouls in the half (as compared to 9 for the Deacs). By this point Nelson had already fouled out, Henderson had 3 fouls, Thomas had 4 fouls, Singler had 4 fouls, and Paulus had 4 fouls.

Did Duke's players foul out while trying to stop the clock - certainly. But every one of the starters except for Henderson had at least 4 fouls by that stage of the game.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Adrian - listen to the folks telling you it isn't worth the effort. I live in Louisville, Ky and am a recent convert to the Blue Devils. I find myself wanting to defend against the Duke Hate Tsunami when attacked but it always ends up with them being stubborn idiots who refuse to see the facts as they are and my being and naive arrogant "traitor" who knows nothing about basketball and it's recent history.

DevilInTheBlueDress gave me the best advice - You can spend all that energy on fighting the negativity or you can spend all that energy spreading the positive. I like spreading the positive.

And I'll do that but I have to admit, I'm sure I'll occasionally throw down in an on-line arguement, if just for a post or two, so as to make the objection heard.

Thanks for the comment and the compliment!

If one can't walk away without making at least one point to refute the "Duke gets all the calls," consider using Coach K's comments from a few years ago. (Some of you may be able to find a link with the exact quote.) The gist of what he said was something like.... When you say "Duke gets all the calls," are you saying the games are fixed? Are you saying the officials fix the games to determine who wins? Fixing games is a serious charge suggesting corruption in college sports; something, which if true, should be reported to the NCAA and dealt with.

[wumhenry]

Thanks for the comment and the compliment!

If one can't walk away without making at least one point to refute the "Duke gets all the calls," consider using Coach K's comments from a few years ago. (Some of you may be able to find a link with the exact quote.) The gist of what he said was something like.... When you say "Duke gets all the calls," are you saying the games are fixed? Are you saying the officials fix the games to determine who wins? Fixing games is a serious charge suggesting corruption in college sports; something, which if true, should be reported to the NCAA and dealt with.

I think his main point was the the "Duke gets all the calls" meme is inherently implausible in view of the large number of different people who referee Duke MBB games in any given season. The notion that so many refs are all involved in a pro-Duke conspiracy is preposterous. Equally preposterous is the notion that all those refs, by pure coincidence, are driven by pro-Duke bias to such an extent that they're willing to deliberately make bad calls.

[captmojo]

The refs used to not like Duke either. However, once one of zebras had a mother , who was saved from death by open-heart surgery at Duke Medical, and the future of the Blue Devils got a lot brighter. Sure it's a stretch, but you're dealing with idiots that don't know better than to dispute it.

[rsvman]

waste. of. time.

[Adrian]

I do appreciate all of the comments that I've received about this topic. I agree that this sort of argument is a complete waste of time. I had never before engaged in one, but for some reason unknown to me decided to speak out because I do identify strongly with my alma matar, I'm proud to be a Duke graduate, and it bothers me that reasonably intelligent, educated people, like the ones participating in my argument, have such a blindingly virulent hatred of Duke and its basketball program. I don't understand why this level of animosity towards Duke exists or where it comes from. It really makes no sense, which disturbs me. I thought that if I presented some simple logic to the debate, such as the implications of the conspiracy theory that others have pointed out here (thanks everyone for this) and empirical probing into this issue, which the DBR article titled "Does Terping Work" and Al Featherston's article from the ACC Sports Journal (thanks for the links!), I thought that I could disabuse them of this idea. I was wrong. To the argument about the implications of the conspiracy theory--the number of ref's that would have to be involved and why they would rig the games--I received no response. When one of the Motley Fool higher ups, a native to the Triangle area, said that his wife roomed with an arrogant Duke alum at business school, confirming his dislike of all Duke alums, I pretended to agree with him, as ShouldBeWorking suggested, and that seemed to quiet things.

I really don't think that this level of prejudice and antagonism is healthy. I wonder could it be this extreme in other intense collegiate rivalries, such as Harvard-Yale or Cal-Stanford? I don't know, but I do wonder if the Duke hating could reflect a real public relations problem that Duke has. Duke is incredibly important to the vibrancy of Triangle area and NC more generally, but all these people seem to associate Duke with is favoritism on the court and that it is alien to NC and would be better off elsewhere. I guess I feel that Duke hating is truly hating and has passed beyond the bounds of civility into primitive, reptilian barbarism. The responses that I've received reflect very ugly ignorant sentiments, and this disturbs me.

[Adrian]

As a converted Duke fan in Kentucky, you are a rare bird. I'm floored and wonder what could possibly have made you a Duke fan.

[Johnny B]

take a leaf out of the soccer rule book; kick him on the shins and run for it

[mapei]

I do wonder if the Duke hating could reflect a real public relations problem that Duke has.

I have come to the opinion that it does.

[Adrian]

Because Duke baldly violated NCAA regs in their recruitment of Jason Williams, but the NCAA looked the other way.

Because Boozer's dad get a new job with a big raise after his son decided to go to Duke - also an NCAA violation. When Boozer left, his father's job ended. The NCAA was so mad they suspended Cleve State again.

4 years ago, the NCAA ruled that Duke would not have to forfeit any games even though Corey Maggette was ruled ineligible for his participation in the 1999 NCAA tournament - for taking $$$ and then heading to Durham. Remember Ultimate Leader K crying at the press conf afterwards? I do. 'Mistakes were made...' sob sob.
In 1994, former Missouri center Jevon Crudup and his family were ruled by the NCAA to have accepted a trip to Las Vegas and gifts from infamous agent runner Nate Cebrun.
Missouri, which advanced to the West Regional Final in 1994, was stripped of that accomplishment and required to pay back some tournament revenue. Since then, eight other schools have suffered similar penalties. That group includes, Arizona, UCLA and Texas Tech, which were all handed similar penalties last week.

Because Leader K spews nonstop profanity at the officials on national TV, then has the chutzpah to make ads proclaiming good sportsmanship?

Duke fans shouting 'Orphan! Orphan!' at Scott Williams, who lost his parents to an unimaginably tragic murder-suicide?

Duke fans writing letters to NC papers complaining that UNC fans were cheering for MissSt v Duke in the 2nd round in Charlotte? The nerve of Tar Heel fans to root for more than one team!

Leader K sticking Pete Gaudet with Duke's losses after Ultimate Leader recruited, coached and trained his team for years/months, then firing him and petitioning the NCAA so he didn't have to face the 13-18 season his team produced? Although he couldn't get out of his losing ACC record that year.
Amazingly, last year, Krzyzewski said "I should have been credited with all of the losses [...] Overall, the bottom line is, I'm responsible, even though I'm not there."

The double Technical foul the refs called on Alexander Johnson of FSU after Shelden Williams shoved him, even tho Johnson just backed away with his hands in the air, fouling him out of the game after calling the personal foul on his attempted shot-block? The refs even huddled up before ejecting Johnson! Duke shot 43 FTs to 11 for FSU.
The ACC suspended that officiating crew after the game - look it up.

Their 37-13 foul [not FT] advantage at BC in a game BC led almost the entire game until the refs unabashedly gave the game to Duke outright? Even though BC was the better, interior team and ^$%^$%^$%^$% had no answer for Smith and Williams? [Both in NBA now.] That was the worst ref'd game I've seen since 2001. Smith got 5 fouls and, AMAZINGLY, no one defending him was whistled once - and he was an AA-candidate!

Duke usually plays a physical man-to-man type defense, not a 2-3 or matchup zone like Chaney's Temple teams or a Syracuse that will let the other team take many uncontested outside shots resulting in few fouls.

Super-Scrub Dahntay Jones elbowing Ray Felton in the face, causing lacerations, but no foul call in 2003? Sean Docker shoving Hansborough in the face during a dead ball - no call? Gerald H's cheapest of cheap shots last year?

^$%^$%^$%^$%ies chanting racial taunts at JR Reid? Throwing condoms at a player accused of sexual assault? Funny how they didn't do that to Shelden Williams.

Duke's behavior towards the lax team last year wasn't particularly inspiring either - withholding evidence, firing the coach, canceling the season.

I would say they are worse than the Yankees or Patriots - they cheat and get away with it, yet we are innundated with how 'clean' they supposedly are. Puke.

[Johnny B]

Because Duke baldly violated NCAA regs in their recruitment of Jason Williams, but the NCAA looked the other way.

Because Boozer's dad get a new job with a big raise after his son decided to go to Duke - also an NCAA violation. When Boozer left, his father's job ended. The NCAA was so mad they suspended Cleve State again.

4 years ago, the NCAA ruled that Duke would not have to forfeit any games even though Corey Maggette was ruled ineligible for his participation in the 1999 NCAA tournament - for taking $$$ and then heading to Durham. Remember Ultimate Leader K crying at the press conf afterwards? I do. 'Mistakes were made...' sob sob.
In 1994, former Missouri center Jevon Crudup and his family were ruled by the NCAA to have accepted a trip to Las Vegas and gifts from infamous agent runner Nate Cebrun.
Missouri, which advanced to the West Regional Final in 1994, was stripped of that accomplishment and required to pay back some tournament revenue. Since then, eight other schools have suffered similar penalties. That group includes, Arizona, UCLA and Texas Tech, which were all handed similar penalties last week.

Because Leader K spews nonstop profanity at the officials on national TV, then has the chutzpah to make ads proclaiming good sportsmanship?

Duke fans shouting 'Orphan! Orphan!' at Scott Williams, who lost his parents to an unimaginably tragic murder-suicide?

Duke fans writing letters to NC papers complaining that UNC fans were cheering for MissSt v Duke in the 2nd round in Charlotte? The nerve of Tar Heel fans to root for more than one team!

Leader K sticking Pete Gaudet with Duke's losses after Ultimate Leader recruited, coached and trained his team for years/months, then firing him and petitioning the NCAA so he didn't have to face the 13-18 season his team produced? Although he couldn't get out of his losing ACC record that year.
Amazingly, last year, Krzyzewski said "I should have been credited with all of the losses [...] Overall, the bottom line is, I'm responsible, even though I'm not there."

The double Technical foul the refs called on Alexander Johnson of FSU after Shelden Williams shoved him, even tho Johnson just backed away with his hands in the air, fouling him out of the game after calling the personal foul on his attempted shot-block? The refs even huddled up before ejecting Johnson! Duke shot 43 FTs to 11 for FSU.
The ACC suspended that officiating crew after the game - look it up.

Their 37-13 foul [not FT] advantage at BC in a game BC led almost the entire game until the refs unabashedly gave the game to Duke outright? Even though BC was the better, interior team and ^$%^$%^$%^$% had no answer for Smith and Williams? [Both in NBA now.] That was the worst ref'd game I've seen since 2001. Smith got 5 fouls and, AMAZINGLY, no one defending him was whistled once - and he was an AA-candidate!

Duke usually plays a physical man-to-man type defense, not a 2-3 or matchup zone like Chaney's Temple teams or a Syracuse that will let the other team take many uncontested outside shots resulting in few fouls.

Super-Scrub Dahntay Jones elbowing Ray Felton in the face, causing lacerations, but no foul call in 2003? Sean Docker shoving Hansborough in the face during a dead ball - no call? Gerald H's cheapest of cheap shots last year?

^$%^$%^$%^$%ies chanting racial taunts at JR Reid? Throwing condoms at a player accused of sexual assault? Funny how they didn't do that to Shelden Williams.

Duke's behavior towards the lax team last year wasn't particularly inspiring either - withholding evidence, firing the coach, canceling the season.

I would say they are worse than the Yankees or Patriots - they cheat and get away with it, yet we are innundated with how 'clean' they supposedly are. Puke.

mmm...sniff, sniff....anyone else smelling TROLL?

[Karl Beem]

Bye!