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  1. #161

    Looking on the bright side...

    After this game, it's likely that every moron in ACC (especially those in Chapel Hell) will think that you can beat Duke by simply pushing the pace and running past them.
    I think that if anyone tries this nonsense again, though, our defense will return its usual form and force run-and-gun teams into turnovers (and easy points!).

  2. #162

    If there is a team I'd rather lose to

    If there is a team I'd rather lose to (this time of year), it's Wake. I really liked Skip Prosser; I've admired Wake's teams over the years. I've liked beating them (including WVU). This year, they have been through it. I hope they do well.

    And, I hope this loss helps focus our team for the rest of the year. Go Duke!
    ~rthomas

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Tough loss but better now than in March. I felt like we were out of sync all night. Every pass looked unexpected and out of rhythm.

    The positive in a game full of negatives was Nolan Smith. I didn't feel that GP had great game so it was great to see Nolan step up. I'd like to see GP and Nolan together on the court more. They compliment each other very well offensively with Nolan being the slashing point guard and GP the shooter from behind the arch.

    Next play. Lets get ready for Miami. They will be ready for us after getting a big road win at GT today.

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    How does the tiebreaker work if Clemson winds up third? We're 1-0 against Clemson, Carolina is 2-0. Would they get the tiebreaker due to more wins? That would be irritating.
    No - by rule, 1-0 is treated the same as 2-0. The tiebreaker is based on winning percentage, not total wins.

  5. #165
    Same with me. I'd rather not overreact no matter what: they played great, we didn't, and the officiating was pretty suspect. But it happens, and I'd rather it happen here than anywhere else.
    But does anyone know how Gaudio coached the biggest win of his life without seeming to raise his voice, elevate his heartrate and without breaking a sweat? I was really impressed and somewhat frightened at the same time. I don't think I've ever been that calm WATCHING a game!

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina

    Teague...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudge View Post
    Finally, Brando decided that the refs had done a great job, because they rapidly broke up a potential altercation between Johnson and Singler, when Johnson had his fist cocked, ready to punch Singler while standing over him-- and then Brando went so far as to say something like "Oh, it was all pretty innocent, and no harm was intended."
    I believe it was Teague who got tangled up w/Singler and had his fist clenched.

    As to the double technical, it seemed more like an effort on the refs part to stem some of the extracurricular play going on in the league this season.

  7. #167
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by billy View Post
    I believe it was Teague who got tangled up w/Singler and had his fist clenched.

    As to the double technical, it seemed more like an effort on the refs part to stem some of the extracurricular play going on in the league this season.
    I can think of about a million other instances that would have been better for such a statement.

  8. #168
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by grc5 View Post
    After this game, it's likely that every moron in ACC (especially those in Chapel Hell) will think that you can beat Duke by simply pushing the pace and running past them.
    I think that if anyone tries this nonsense again, though, our defense will return its usual form and force run-and-gun teams into turnovers (and easy points!).
    Unfortunately, teams with a fast point guard who can drive past Duke's guards and get good shots will think that this is the key to beating Duke-- I think we may have seen a vision of T. Lawson playing against Duke next time.

    When are announcers going to stop saying that Nelson can guard really quick guards? He couldn't do it last year against Marquette, VPI, and VCU, and he fouled out of this game trying to do it against Wake.

    The other Big Lie is that Nelson is 6'4" and can go inside and score over bigger people, up to 6'9"-- he is actually more like 6'2' (according to sources inside the team), and he can't often score over frontcourt players, as tonight showed time and again-- he regularly gets blocked by players between 6'5" and 6'9", because, while he is a good athete, he is not a transcendant athlete (like a Jordan, Barkley, Bryant, James, etc.) who can beat bigger, good athletes... and unfortunately, Nelson STILL has not figured this out, which is why, 4 years into his college career, he continues to bull his way inside and then force up bad shots. But at least he finally did try to make a fast break outlet pass tonight off a defensive rebound in his own half-- unfortunately the pass was poorly thrown and resulted in a turnover, so maybe that's why he chooses to dribble the ball up himself every other time, after collecting a defensive rebound.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    *One last thought - Paulus has improved greatly but still needs a mid-range jumper. He is either a 3 or a kick out... rarely takes the 5-10 footer most teams give him.
    Paulus has a pretty nice mid-range shot, but he doesn't take it as often as I'd like to see. We did see him hit a sweet one tonight, and that was a bright spot. This could be really valuable when other shots aren't falling (along with Henderson's mid-range game).

    The thing I'm most concerned about is that he's becoming predictable when he drives to the hoop. Teams expect him to kick it out and are starting to play the pass first. Also, once in awhile he gets caught in no-man's-land and attempts the kick-out after committing himself too far. Though he's not that quick on the drive, he's a pretty decent finisher when there's a little room to work. I think the trick is to make the right choice at the right time between drives, mid-range shots, and kick-outs to keep the other teams honest.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by rthomas View Post
    If there is a team I'd rather lose to (this time of year), it's Wake. I really liked Skip Prosser; I've admired Wake's teams over the years. I've liked beating them (including WVU). This year, they have been through it. I hope they do well.

    And, I hope this loss helps focus our team for the rest of the year. Go Duke!
    I have to second that. I would have hated losing to unc, md, vt, fsu, or even clemson. So I guess it's the least of evils.

    One further comment. I have NEVER felt the need to look up an officiating crew before, but during tonight's game I felt the need to see who was officiating this game and who officiated the Miami game:
    Wake crew: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Sean Hull
    Miami crew: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Jerry Heater
    That made a pretty convincing argument to myself regarding officiating crew MOs. There was just something remarkably similar... and lo and behold... I am NOT blaming officials for the loss though.

  11. #171
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by KyDevilinIL View Post
    Of all the things to pontificate about tonight, Tim Brando's performance hardly seems like a priority.
    I had it as a separate thread, but the powers that be decided, in their infinite wisdom, that it needed to be closed out and folded in here... it was just one of many things that grated on me about tonight's game, but it was hardly the only one... I have posted elsewhere about Nelson.

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va
    Paulus can't get the mid range shot off if he is defended unless its a floater.

  13. #173
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Though I didn't see it, I'm pretty sure the 1972 USA vs. Russia game was worse.

    We lost 5 guys to fouls against Maryland back in '05 and 4 guys to fouls vs. WFU in '05 as well. We also lost ~4 guys to fouls vs. UConn in '04. Don't think they were all starters but we've suffered that kind of attrition before.

    Not a great called game but it had no bearing on the outcome. The team that deserved to win won tonight. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
    were the 5 guys to maryland all starters? also, how many of them were at the very end when we were fouling right away? i can't recall a game where ALL of the starters fouled out and all but i think paulus fouled out before the heavy fouling started.

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by DU82 View Post
    That [back court] call was correct. Scheyer was the last one to touch it in the front court, and he knocked it into the backcourt when trying to control it. No Deacon touched it in between.
    By rule, to have back court you first need team control, and there is no team control from the time the ball is shot until someone secures the rebound.

    Obviously, the refs must have decided Duke had secured the rebound, even if ever so briefly, before the ball was subsequently knocked loose (which does not end team control).

    -jk

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilby View Post
    Paulus can't get the mid range shot off if he is defended unless its a floater.
    I wasn't sure about this statement, so I decided to check out the shot charts from the ACC games:

    Greg Paulus, Mid-Range game

    @ WF: 1 for 4
    MD: 1 for 4
    BC: 0 for 1
    @UNC: 0 for 1
    Miami: 0 for 2
    NCSU: 0 for 3
    @MD: 1 for 1
    @VT: none
    Clemson: 1 for 1
    @FSU: 0 for 2
    UVA: 0 for 1

    Overall in ACC Play: 4 for 16 (25%, compared to 44% beyond the arc and 48% on all 2 point shots).

  16. #176
    OK, finished the last 11 minutes of the game on delay. Here's my take on the officiating, which wasn't great but not altogether atrocious either. It looked to me like the officials were allowing players to challenge with the lower body, but anything with the arms was called a foul. That's fine. I can live with it if it's consistent. After all, that explains Gerald and Demarcus's out of bounds calls, and how Scheyer picked up a foul for grazing the arm of a shooter in the lane.

    Now fast forward to the last 2 minutes...

    Duke's in a hole because they're down around 7 and have to play aggressive defense to force turnovers or foul. Problem is, nobody has any fouls to give.
    • Singler's 5th was a good call; the guy he collided with was pretty stationary. Demarcus's 5th was also good. He slipped, the Wake guy went right at him, and he reached.
    • Greg's 5th foul was intentional to stop the clock.
    • Lance's 5th for bumping the Wake player out of bounds I thought was BS, especially since the refs let the earlier two plays against Gerald and Demarcus slide.
    • Sure looked like Nolan got taken down on his 3 attempt, although it was not a good angle from TV to say for sure.


    As for other bad calls, there was certainly intentional foul and the Technicals that were poor, even though I'd argue both of them favored us since McFarlane fouled out. There was another play (same series as the Gerald force out) where Lance goes to set a screen and the Wake guy sees him coming and lowers his shoulder into Lance, who goes sprawling into the fetal position. That, as a no call, floored me.

    However, even if these 4-5 calls were all made correctly, we still would have lost. No way did the officials cost us this game IMO. We could not contain Wake's guards, had problems keeping their big men off the glass, turned the ball over WAAAY too much, went about 5 minutes without a bucket, and couldn't hit over half our free throws. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a lot to overcome for any team, and tonight we couldn't do it.

    Anyway, I'm off to bed. Not a bad loss, but it certainly shows that this team isn't invincible, and that we can be done in when our shooters go cold. But we'll watch the film, learn from it, and move on. Next Game.
    "There can BE only one."

  17. #177
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mudge View Post
    Why is every team in this league, except Maryland, looking to start a fight with somebody on Duke (usually Paulus)?
    I wondered for a while if my blue colored glasses were distorting my viewing of recent Duke games concerning the physicality of play, but the last few games that I watched non-Duke were just as bad. Has anyone else noticed how much they are letting players get away with, but then whistle ticky-tack fouls? It almost looks like NBA or Big East... anything goes.

    I know this is just my opinion, but it does seem like the games where we have the most trouble are the ones where we are in a heavy-weight slugfest. Our guys aren't bruisers, but I'm glad that this team has a certain cockiness and will get back in their face. I call thsi team: Timex. We take a licking and keep on ticking. Only tonight, I think our battery went dead b/c we just seemed really out of it. I made the comment to my wife that it seemed like we were just tired of getting beat up, and the physical play of late was getting to us.

    Regarding Brando, etc... I know that I can mute the audio, but why should I have to? I mean, they are COMMENTATORS, not the opposing team's voice-box. These guys are supposed to be neutral, not trying to flame-up the anti-Duke crowd. They are the ones who spread all this "Duke gets the calls" crap. Even tonight, after all our starters fouled out (which I've never ever seen happen before to anyone) and the rest of the team has a number of fouls, Brando makes a flipant comment along the lines of "I guess Duke didn't get all the calls tonight." Simply uncalled for. Just make interesting comments about the game, and if I want to hear anti-Duke venom, I will find the radio station for the other team's coverage.

    One last comment: In listening to Bob harris at some poing near the end of the game, he made a comment along the lines that Nelson has a streak of 16 games where he has missed at least 4 FT in a row. I found that interesting, considering that he had such a great FT % in HS. I wonder how many of those were the front-end of 1&1s?

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post

    Now fast forward to the last 2 minutes...

    Duke's in a hole because they're down around 7 and have to play aggressive defense to force turnovers or foul. Problem is, nobody has any fouls to give.
    • Singler's 5th was a good call; the guy he collided with was pretty stationary. Demarcus's 5th was also good. He slipped, the Wake guy went right at him, and he reached.
    • Greg's 5th foul was intentional to stop the clock.
    • Lance's 5th for bumping the Wake player out of bounds I thought was BS, especially since the refs let the earlier two plays against Gerald and Demarcus slide.
    • Sure looked like Nolan got taken down on his 3 attempt, although it was not a good angle from TV to say for sure.


    As for other bad calls, there was certainly intentional foul and the Technicals that were poor, even though I'd argue both of them favored us since McFarlane fouled out. There was another play (same series as the Gerald force out) where Lance goes to set a screen and the Wake guy sees him coming and lowers his shoulder into Lance, who goes sprawling into the fetal position. That, as a no call, floored me.
    As someone pulling for Wake, my take was that the officials were awful.

    The force outs you mention were fouls. They have to be called.

    The intentional foul can't be called that. It just can't.

    The and one late by, I think, Teague against Paulus was bad.

    The Scheyer play along the sideline in front of the Wake bench where he cut the guy off, spilled himself and the Wake guy and Scheyer as he fell, caught the ball and keyed the break was physically impressive, but a block by Scheyer who undercut the guy.

    The three-point knock down on Nolan Smith was a good non-call, if you mean the one in the last minute and a half (or even less). Smith shot the ball and kind of layed down to his right looking for the call. Don't blame him for trying, but it was a good no call.

    The double tech early was silly. Looked like Zoubek whined about what looked like a good call and the Wake guy, McFarlane, gave him the ol' a-hole, "Oh, you know you hacked me" line. Didn't look all that serious to deserve a tech either way, but you either need to tee Zoubek up for the initial whine, or just tee the Wake dude up. There was no way to meld those things together and the ref had already let the Zoubek whining go.

    The fifth on Singler looked dicey from that last angle they showed. Looked like Johnson leaned in. But Singler may have gotten away with an earlier fourth that Brando commented on (mentioned that the crowd was whining).

    Just my take on those calls you mentioned or the ones I remembered.

  19. #179
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    I always hate losing, period. I hope the team responds the way they responded to the Pitt loss...use it as fuel for the fire and get back after it even harder. I do have some concerns that may not be specific to this loss but more about things I have been seeing lately:
    • Actually let me first state that as easy as it is to be negative after a loss I'll start with the positive. Nolan Smith played great tonight. That was nice to see since he's had some pretty bad games of late.
    • Gerald's injury is affecting him greatly and having him be ineffective erodes some of the great balance we have had from our team this year. We are so good because we have so many guys to stop. If G is hurt and isn't hard to stop that really makes a difference.
    • Taylor King has left the building...and we could use him back. Another threat for Duke that has been missing of late is TK. I'd like to see this kid get back on track to increase that great scoring balance we have leaned on this year.
    • I hope that Demarc's practice of taking on bigger players in the paint when he shouldn't can be minimized, unlike tonight where he looked like the DN from last season.
    • Singler has to respect those 5 fouls and try harder not to give them away cheaply. This is also the second game in a row where he's had some bad turnovers. He's a great player but he could improve on these areas (all players can improve on something!).
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    A serious question - why in the name of God would anyone care about what Tim Brando had to say? Please, please stop whining, or at least find something worth whining about.
    It's that we love to watch Duke basketball and having the announcers be anti-Duke takes away some of that enjoyment. That's why and it's a valid complaint. Does it matter as much as winning? Nope but last I checked this was entertainment.

    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    blah blah blah a bunch of anti-Scheyer crap I deleted
    WTF??? Jon has good and bad games just like everyone else but this kid is a large part of why we only have 2 losses this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by The1Bluedevil View Post
    Wake will be scary good in 08-09
    I think you mispelled "Duke" it starts with a "D" not a "W".


    One more thing. Wake played great tonight but their run in the second half was fueled by the referees calling the game in their favor. I know it's the gallant thing to do to say that we lost not because of the refs but because Wake played great and we didn't bring our 'A' game. Well I'm not feeling gallant! All five of our starters fouled out, all five! I'm not saying we win this game with better officiating but I will say that it really sucks that we didn't get better officiating so we could have seen who should have won the game. Maybe it would have still been Wake...who the hell knows? I sure don't!

    I'm not getting this loss out of perspective. I thought the Pitt loss was a bad loss but our kids responded well. I don't feel that this is a 'bad' loss. I feel like we are as good as anybody in the nation and mostly I can't wait to see our next game. It's so much fun seeing who's going to step up next.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeDevilDeb View Post
    Didn't understand why K spent most of the game sitting on the bench rather than getting up and directing the team as he did against our last several opponents.
    I also noticed this during the game, and posted on the chat room. Coach K seemed pretty passive, as far as what was shown on TV. It's almost as if he wanted to let the team figure this one out themselves... and then use this as a "teaching moment".

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