Could Zoubek be the Final Piece to this team?

[Devilsfan]

I understand the posts about lack of mobility, and his not being able to move his feet on a simple bounce pass by Scheyer. But he didn't play in the second half, and after his first career dunk. Did he aggravate his fooot? I sure hope not. He was making such great strides.

[greybeard]

If there was ever a team in which the chemistry is impeccably good, it's this year's Duke team. I think you've misread something to be a negative where there is no negative. I don't remember this incident of which you speak, and I don't remember any situation in which any player failed to show trust in Zoubek. And if there were ever a coach that would IMMEDIATELY resolve such a situation if it arose, it is Coach "five fingers coming together make a fist" K. He coaches chemistry and togetherness more than anybody. The fact that Coach K showed nothing but love for Henderson's play (both during and after the game) last night suggests that you misinterpreted the situation, too.

Could be, but for some time (two seasons) I have seen either an inability or an unwillingness of Duke's outside players to penetrate with the pass as Zoubek was moving to good position. Last year they would wait not only until he arrived, but also until a defender started pushing on him before they threw him the ball. Then, when he was unable to do anything with it, it was on Zoubek, at least among the posters here. Not me. I have spoken to this issue for two years. I spoke to it forcefully BEFORE his big game preceeding the GT game. This is nothing new for me.

I see it as a trust issue, not a skill one, although the two are intertwined. I appreciate that passing lanes can appear to be present and close with lightening quickness and that that can make a player understandably cautious.

The play in the GT game, Henderson threw it three feet out of Zoubek's reach. Now, he might have seen in his mind's eye Zoubek moving like Singler, but then he isn't seeing his teammate, which is where I began.

[mehmattski]

“I was always a target, especially in high school,” Duke’s Brian Zoubek said. “I was a target for teams’ defenses, a target for teams’ aggression ... for teams’ anger. I had one game my sophomore year when we were playing our biggest rival. They had a football player starting on their team. First play of the game, he walks out on the court, winds up and punches me right in the crotch. There was stuff like that all through high school.”

Ouch. Hooray for being short!

Seriously, I have some estimate of how he is... I was a track athlete but also played soccer in high school, and being a superfast wing player lead to defenders freaking out and tripping me on purpose (until they realized I wasn't very skilled).

[devildownunder]

As long as it means 25 minutes in each for Zoubek.


I've been thinking about this. Brian has shown that he is moving fairly well now and can at least try to step up and make a contribution down the stretch. But with unc now "in the hole" on the schedule and every game after that an elimination game, there really are just two more games that we may think of as "dress rehearsals" before opening night.

I'm not trying to say the regular season has no meaning but we are attempting to build to something here. This team has much talent and much promise but in order to have a realistic shot at a title, it will need some interior defense and AT LEAST some put back/fill the lane-type offensive production from the post.

Zoubek needs to adjust to the team and his teammates need to adjust to him. This takes live-game experience, not just practice.

So I say we start Zoubek and play him all the minutes he can handle the next couple of games, and then adjust his minutes for unc/acc/ncaas according to how he performs in those contests and, if warranted, any subsequent practices.

Yes, we stand to lose some seeding and, perhaps, a mythical regular-season acc title, but I think we could stand to gain much more.

Your thoughts?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

As long as it means 25 minutes in each for Zoubek.

Your thoughts?

Ain't gonna happen.

Brian can contribute greatly to this team, and with solid contributions can certainly enhance our chances against some opponents, but he's not going to play 25 minutes in a game this year, and we're not going to lose our next two games.

[devildownunder]

Ain't gonna happen.

Brian can contribute greatly to this team, and with solid contributions can certainly enhance our chances against some opponents, but he's not going to play 25 minutes in a game this year, and we're not going to lose our next two games.

Hey, anything is possible, but I don't think it's going to happen either. Just want to get some opinions on whether or not this would be a positive course of action. There would, of course, be no guarantee that Duke would lose is he played big minutes. Maybe he would perform very well and we would win. Or maybe he would perform poorly and we'd still win anyway.

At some point we'll require the services of a big man in some way shape or form to win it all. There isn't much time left. This is just an idea for doing everything we can to have that big man ready when we need him.

[CDu]

Hey, anything is possible, but I don't think it's going to happen either. Just want to get some opinions on whether or not this would be a positive course of action. There would, of course, be no guarantee that Duke would lose is he played big minutes. Maybe he would perform very well and we would win. Or maybe he would perform poorly and we'd still win anyway.

At some point we'll require the services of a big man in some way shape or form to win it all. There isn't much time left. This is just an idea for doing everything we can to have that big man ready when we need him.

I don't believe that it would be a good thing. I don't think getting Zoubek 25 minutes a game for two straight games is going to prepare him to be a major contributor night in and night out for the rest of the season. I don't think it's lack of playing time that's keeping him down, I think it's a combination of a lack of conditioning, coordination/athleticism, and strength. So basically, we'd just be losing two games with no benefit later in the season.

There may be occasional matchups this year in which he can be effective in brief stints, but there are going to be plenty of matchups in which he's just not ready yet. I think it's going to take an entire offseason of weight training and conditioning and basketball for him to have a chance to be ready to contribute night in and night out.

Now, if Zoubek had not been injured last summer or early in the year and you were suggesting this in November/December, I might have agreed. But it's not likely that Zoubek is going to have a meteoric rise in conditioning or strength late in the season.

[greybeard]

I don't believe that it would be a good thing. I don't think getting Zoubek 25 minutes a game for two straight games is going to prepare him to be a major contributor night in and night out for the rest of the season. I don't think it's lack of playing time that's keeping him down, I think it's a combination of a lack of conditioning, coordination/athleticism, and strength. So basically, we'd just be losing two games with no benefit later in the season.

There may be occasional matchups this year in which he can be effective in brief stints, but there are going to be plenty of matchups in which he's just not ready yet. I think it's going to take an entire offseason of weight training and conditioning and basketball for him to have a chance to be ready to contribute night in and night out.

Now, if Zoubek had not been injured last summer or early in the year and you were suggesting this in November/December, I might have agreed. But it's not likely that Zoubek is going to have a meteoric rise in conditioning or strength late in the season.

Agreed, almost entirely. Here's the almost.

Zoubek, if the team adjusts to his abilities (notice I did not say limitations, which is how I think some of the players look at things), has proven he can be effective, and not just on put backs, offensively.

This is what K has to ask himself, or not, depending on how he sees it: how much is it worth to give a player who was highly recruited and might have been from day one regarded as a center piece in other worthwhile 1-A programs, an opportunity to do his thing? How much is it worth to his teammates?

Some might answer simply that it is not worth sacrificing momentum, and the rhythm that this team has established. Might be true. However, it would seem that this momentum and rhythm, if they are worth anything, cannot be so frail. More importantly, where does the strength, the real inner strength to perserve and prevail down the road in a team really lie? Is it just the bench riders who need to sacrifice, and be there for the others? I think that this team loses if that is their mindset. I really do.

[Jumbo]

I've read a number of comments on Zoubek, and while I'm excited about the extent to which people are encouraged by his progress, we need to keep a few things in mind.
1) When you add something in hoops, you often have to subtract something else. That is certainly the case here. Much of Duke's success this season has come from two areas -- pressure defende and a spread offense where basically everyone can shoot, drive and pass. Zoubek's presence changes both of those areas dramatically.
2) Even with extended minutes, Zoubek isn't the type of player yet where you can stick him on the block, feed him the ball, and let him go to work. so the idea of his a post scoring presence this season simply through more reps is a bit of a farce. He doesn't have those skills yet. By next year, hopefully he will.
3) Zoubek is still very inconsistent. His last game was a perfect example, as he made a number of mistakes. Two stand out. Once, he caught the ball in the middle of the lane, but didn't even try to make a move. So, even at 7'1", his hook shot was easily rejected. Shortly after, Scheyer curled deep into the paint off the dribble. It was clear from the motion of the play that Duke's big man would have a dunk if he cut to the basket. Sure enough, Scheyer threaded a beautiful bounce pass between two defenders that ... just froze under the hoop, because no one was there to collect it. After a seemingly endless pause, the ball just trickled out of bounds. Why? Brian hadn't cut.

Zoubek doesn't have to be a major component of this team for it succeed, for him to succeed. We actually have a really nice thing going with Zoubek, McClure and King, three totally different backups who match up well with different types of teams. As long as one plays well off the bench in a given game, we're in pretty good shape. And as long as Zoubek can give Duke solid defense and rebounding in the games where that is needed, I will be quite happy with his contributions this season.

[Classof06]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Zoubs will come back an average a double double but if he comes back healthy (any day now I assume) and can give this team 6-8 quality minutes they might very well be on their way to a final four.

Clealry our main (only?) weakness is our post defense against bigger teams. Booker and Osby had their way in the first half of their games against us but slowed considerably in the second halves as our depth wore them down.

If Zoubs can simply provide some defense and rebounding against these bigger teams I would think we would improve drmatically. Specifically, if he can provide 4-5 first half minutes against the bigger bodies it would go a long way in securing potential victories against the likes of UCLA, Kansas and UNC.

Providing he's healthy I think it's fairly realistic to think that Zoubek can still help this team significantly this season.

Yes, yes, yes. I've said it a million times but I think Duke needs Zoubek to ultimately win a national championship. He doesn't have to play 25-30 minutes a game, but he needs to give Duke a solid 10-15 minutes a game in the tourney. If he can rebound, defend and alter shots, that's all Duke needs. I get frustrated a lot because Krzyzewski seems to have such a short leash with Zoubek. Brian is only going to learn by getting extended game minutes, like the St John's game.

Now, I'm not asking Coach K to play Brian at the expense of losing games but you can clearly see Zoubek is getting more comfortable with each outing and if we can get him further along that "comfort path" by March, it will reap huge dividends for Duke. I'm very, very excited at the progress Brian has made since returning from injury and for my and Duke's sake, I hope it continues...

[Bluedog]

Zoubek is getting more comfortable with each outing and if we can get him further along that "comfort path" by March, it will reap huge dividends for Duke.

By March? That's only two days away I know, you mean the NCAA tournament. But, I definitely agree that Brian will play a key role and I think nobody understands that more than Coach K. Altering shots, getting rebounds, having a big body inside, 5 additional fouls to give, and giving some rest to other starters can make a huge difference. I've been very pleased with what I've seen from Zoubek the past couple of games, and expect it will only improve.

[greybeard]

I think that if Duke (K) decided he needed it, wanted it, you would see Zoubek, out of shape and all, tender foot and all (sorry, I don't believe it ain't), score near double figures and shoot a high percentage playing less than half a game.

No, I do not think you could just let him set up in the block, get him the ball, and have him go to work. That is not the way effective pivot play usually works.

Big deal, he got one touch and got his shot blocked. That proves exactly what? Henderson went up on a drive as high as he could and had folks looking down at him; the ball never left his hand. So what! He should stop penetrating the defense? Why the double standard?

I don't remember the play with Scheyer, but it sounds like he tried to do more than usual off of the dribble, take it inside the lane with no clear path to the basket, after occupying the ball for a while on an aborted penetration and then looping back around, and found himself in trouble and threw the ball on a hope and a prayer with no indication that the other guy had made a read.

Look, I can understand that Zoubek is not up on his game because of his injury and leave it at that. But, the failure of other teammates to give him a chance to maximize his abilities in his style and not theirs is not his fault, it is theirs. Ultimately, when this season is over, if they don't win a championship, they will be left with memories that will focus more on their experiences as a group then on battles won and lost. To let a teammate hang in the wind as being perceived as less than he is, as not having had the chance to succeed because of how they chose to adapt to what he does well or not, will be part of those memories. The sound of one hand clapping, perhaps, the sound of one less thing to talk about.

And, it is possible, it is perhaps possible, that whether they win a championship or not will depend on how well they can organize themselves to allow a 7'1" teammate to make a play at a key moment of a game that only that 7'1" teammate could possibly make. That too it seems like will be the sound of one hand clapping. On that, I agree with the rest of you.

[Jumbo]

I think that if Duke (K) decided he needed it, wanted it, you would see Zoubek, out of shape and all, tender foot and all (sorry, I don't believe it ain't), score near double figures and shoot a high percentage playing less than half a game.

Greybeard,
That's a really unfair, unrealistic expectation. And, even if it were true, at what expense would it occur? If K did make this kind of commitment, what would Duke sacrifice in the process? In a way, you answer this question by saying "if Duke (K) decided he needed it." Duke doesn't need Zoubek to score like that.

No, I do not think you could just let him set up in the block, get him the ball, and have him go to work. That is not the way effective pivot play usually works.

It depends on the pivot. But Brian, at this point, is more effective with his back to the basket, either making post move or catching the ball on the move around the rim.

Big deal, he got one touch and got his shot blocked. That proves exactly what? Henderson went up on a drive as high as he could and had folks looking down at him; the ball never left his hand. So what! He should stop penetrating the defense? Why the double standard?

There's no double standard. I was simply using that play as an example that illustrated some of Brian limitations at the moment. He does not yet have a good feel for the defense around him, and his movement is limited. So he tends to play stiff.

I don't remember the play with Scheyer, but it sounds like he tried to do more than usual off of the dribble, take it inside the lane with no clear path to the basket, after occupying the ball for a while on an aborted penetration and then looping back around, and found himself in trouble and threw the ball on a hope and a prayer with no indication that the other guy had made a read.

Forgive me, but how can you comment on a play you didn't even see? That would be like my describing intimate details from the Battle of the Bulge. For the record, Scheyer didn't do anything more than usual. He made a typical penetrating play (can't remember whether Zoubek screened or was on the block). He got into the lane, drew a second defender, and you could see the play developing as he soveled a beautiful pass toward the basket where his big man should have been cutting for a dunk. Zoubek never moved. It's just once example, but it's important to remember both the good and the bad when evaluating a player.

Look, I can understand that Zoubek is not up on his game because of his injury and leave it at that. But, the failure of other teammates to give him a chance to maximize his abilities in his style and not theirs is not his fault, it is theirs. Ultimately, when this season is over, if they don't win a championship, they will be left with memories that will focus more on their experiences as a group then on battles won and lost. To let a teammate hang in the wind as being perceived as less than he is, as not having had the chance to succeed because of how they chose to adapt to what he does well or not, will be part of those memories. The sound of one hand clapping, perhaps, the sound of one less thing to talk about.

And, it is possible, it is perhaps possible, that whether they win a championship or not will depend on how well they can organize themselves to allow a 7'1" teammate to make a play at a key moment of a game that only that 7'1" teammate could possibly make. That too it seems like will be the sound of one hand clapping. On that, I agree with the rest of you.

Zoubek's teammates are not stopping him from getting opportunities. Zoubek is loved by his teammates, and no one was happier after his performance against St. John's than his teammates. The point I made, which you did not recognize, is that Brian has a specific skill set at this time, and those skills don't mesh particularly well with the style Duke is playing, nor against every opponent. For the rest of this season, Zoubek will be a situational weapon. Agaisnt teams with certain types of big men, his size will be invaluable. Against other teams with smaller, quicker bigs, a guy like McClure will be more effective (like against Georgia Tech). Let's keep our expectations realistic.

[OldSchool]

No, I do not think you could just let him set up in the block, get him the ball, and have him go to work. That is not the way effective pivot play usually works.

I don't remember the play with Scheyer, but it sounds like he tried to do more than usual off of the dribble, take it inside the lane with no clear path to the basket, after occupying the ball for a while on an aborted penetration and then looping back around, and found himself in trouble and threw the ball on a hope and a prayer with no indication that the other guy had made a read.

Correct, Zoubek does not yet have the basketball skills to set up on the block against a quality big man and then make a nifty move or series of moves, without traveling, and score on a layup like Shelden or Hansbrough. It's not because he's not athletic enough to accomplish that, it's that he hasn't yet developed that skill set.

The errant pass by Jon actually illustrates the way Brian should be used on offense - as an alternative to kicking out for a 3 when one of our penetrators has drawn help defense to him in the lane. On that play, Jon had penetrated and drew Z's defender over to help - Z immediately recognized he was open and put his hand up high for a pass from Jon. Jon could have passed it over top to where the 7'1" Zoubek had his hand extended - but instead made a bounce pass under the basket. Sure, ideally Z should have been cutting to the basket instead of waiting for the pass where he was - but I fault Jon as much as Z on that play, and attribute it to lack of chemistry due to not having played together enough.

That play could easily have turned out well, and demonstrates the best way to use Z on offense - lurking near the lane to be available for a layup when a penetrator draws the help defense. Especially when we are not hot from 3, it is a very useful option.

Other teams use this play against us with much success when our defense is spread out defending the perimeter, although I have noticed they are less successful when Zoubek is in on defense, because of his large presence.

[MChambers]

Let's keep our expectations realistic.

Since when do we do that?

[greybeard]

Jumbo, we are not really far apart (I wish I knew how to separate out quotes the way you and others do, it makes for effective dialogue).

My first point was not to argue that K can possibly be faulted for not trying to structure play for extended periods to maximize Z's output, but rather that, if he did, the output would be there. Ergo, he is not nearly as unskilled or unready as many here say. In that regard, you and I differ.

My second point was a more nuanced take in what I see as the strength of Brian's back-to-the-basket game. Perhaps it comes from his having been a goal tender in soccer (just teasing here). He makes a move to appropriate space at extremely appropriate times for a reception; the exterior players do not deliver as they see him starting to move (that was historical), and what we saw in the last game, at least in Henderson's case, was a delivery that was not attuned to Brian's current pace and, I think, longstanding style, which is to create separation and begin to gather for a catch and move with no bounce. (For a 7'1" guy coming off a serious, serious foot injury, I don't think that Brian is comfortable with the notion of getting a step and picking up speed, adjusting to the catch and then dealing with whatever he might perchance encounter on the finish.)

So, if Brian was an established starter and scorer, and someone came in off the bench and threw him a lead pass as if he were a finisher like Henderson, he would not do that twice (just ask Taylor). My beef is that no one on this team, except Singler, has impressed me overtime with the ability to make penetrating passes APPROPRIATE to the receiver. I have seen Singler make some wonderful ones to Lance.

That said, I see Brian as still being significantly hampered by the foot. His inability to get going in the circumstance you mention involving Scheyer (by the way, I did describe in terrific detail a play I saw Scheyer make when he threw the ball away, I just do not recall whom it was directed at because it got close to no one; apparently that was a different forced pass) I think is a mental/emotional limitation that coincides with the freshness of the injury and the failure to complete healing and needed reeducation (perhaps a reeducation that improves on the early education) about ambulating in that manner.

Personally, I am surprised that he is back playing and think that it is terrific that K is giving him the opportunity. If I was his coach, I don't think I would.

I am being very demanding on what I expect from Zoubek's teammates, more demanding than K and perhaps, given who he is and who I am, stupidly so. That said, everything in this world has it's price; if the guy is on the floor and one of the skill players throws a pass that misses him by 3 feet, for me, it is on them. If K put Zoubek on the floor, which he did, then darn it, deliver it to the guy the way he likes when he likes in the spot he likes. No excuses, do it!

And, if he gets another hook shot stuffed, so what? On the other hand, maybe having tasted blood, that shot blocker and his buddies will be dead meat for a simple head fake, and Z walks to the basket in his own sweet time and lays it in without exposing himself to unknown risks that he is not ready to handle.

By the way, what's up with Hewitt? I mean, I really like the guy's demeanor and the way his teams have played at GT. but, playing that kid who kept rolling his eyes around in his head to make sure his head was still there (I'm assuming the doctors told them to do that and that, if he passed out, they'd know he couldn't play or some such) was almost "beyond the pale," and I do not use that term lightly (you think).

[CDu]

I am being very demanding on what I expect from Zoubek's teammates, more demanding than K and perhaps, given who he is and who I am, stupidly so. That said, everything in this world has it's price; if the guy is on the floor and one of the skill players throws a pass that misses him by 3 feet, for me, it is on them. If K put Zoubek on the floor, which he did, then darn it, deliver it to the guy the way he likes when he likes in the spot he likes. No excuses, do it!

Here's where I think you've misinterpreted the situation. I highly doubt that Henderson/Scheyer/etc are intentionally throwing the ball away from Zoubek. They are making an instinctive pass based on practice and the flow of the game. It just so happens that Zoubek may not be up to game speed quite yet. Passes like that will get him there moreso than passing tentatively will.

I really don't think you should bench a player for making a pass like that. Passing should be encouraged, not discouraged. Benching a player for making a pass to a spot where Zoubek probably should have been is sending the wrong message. You bench the guy who is not where he's supposed to be - not the other way around. What you're suggesting would further limit Zoubek's touches. Instead of trying to get him the ball, the team would be more inclined to never pass to him, for risk of getting benched for missing him with the pass.

[Jumbo]

Greybeard,
The easiest way to quote section is to respond to the post by clicking the quote button. As you'll see, the post to which you are responding will come up with a quote tag at the beginning and one at the end. To separate it into chunks, just copy and paste the "beginning" quote tag and the "end" quote tag to the beginning and end of the section to which you wan to reply. Write your reply, then repeat the process for each section of someone's post you want to quote.

Edit: The beginning quote tag will look like this (without the parentheses): ([QUOTE=greybeard;111870])
The end one will look like this [/QUOOOOOOTE] (With quote spelled normally -- if I post it the correct way it will work as html)

[greybeard]

Here's where I think you've misinterpreted the situation. I highly doubt that Henderson/Scheyer/etc are intentionally throwing the ball away from Zoubek. They are making an instinctive pass based on practice and the flow of the game. It just so happens that Zoubek may not be up to game speed quite yet. Passes like that will get him there moreso than passing tentatively will.

I really don't think you should bench a player for making a pass like that. Passing should be encouraged, not discouraged. Benching a player for making a pass to a spot where Zoubek probably should have been is sending the wrong message. You bench the guy who is not where he's supposed to be - not the other way around. What you're suggesting would further limit Zoubek's touches. Instead of trying to get him the ball, the team would be more inclined to never pass to him, for risk of getting benched for missing him with the pass.

Again, you and I are pretty close here. I will first blend in a response to someone who said something like Brian does not have a back-to-the-basket game like "Shelden or Hansbrough." He is not anywhere near as proficient as them, but, IF HE GETS THE DAMN THING AS HE MAKES A MOVE TO SPACE AND CREATES A TAD OF SEPARATION FROM THE DEFENDER, HE WILL HURT PEOPLE!! If Montana treated Clark as if he was (I'm blocking here), there would have been no CATCH.

I agree with you that Duke is playing great and that Scheyer and Henderson are well meaning guys and are great contributors. I also agree that Brian does not fit the tempo that they are playing at when they are rocking and rolling. However, when, as has happened often, the offense shuts down for long periods, the heck with your tempo preferences; maybe you could use a 7footer to put the ball over some people, and, if so, then you better get the ball to him in a way that maximizes his chances, whether it fits with your instincts or not.

I agree with you also as to your bottom line. I take it that you would not rely on Zoubek to perform offensively at meaningful times, or perhaps use him at all in meaningful games. Like I said, I doubt that I would be allowing him to play, period. While my bottom line is that he is just not ready, I see the issues you and Jumbo raise about his ability in real world terms to contribute to be extremely well thought out and in line with the percentages.

My only tweak is that, if K is gonna use the kid, then it is up to the other guys to treat him like a star and adapt their tempos, instincts, and whatever else they have to, to deliver him the ball in a manner that, if his bones are well enough aligned that particularly day, will allow him to hurt people inside the defense with easy attempts off the pass. Any team benefits offensively when that happens.

[devildownunder]

Yes, yes, yes. I've said it a million times but I think Duke needs Zoubek to ultimately win a national championship. He doesn't have to play 25-30 minutes a game, but he needs to give Duke a solid 10-15 minutes a game in the tourney. If he can rebound, defend and alter shots, that's all Duke needs. I get frustrated a lot because Krzyzewski seems to have such a short leash with Zoubek. Brian is only going to learn by getting extended game minutes, like the St John's game.

Now, I'm not asking Coach K to play Brian at the expense of losing games but you can clearly see Zoubek is getting more comfortable with each outing and if we can get him further along that "comfort path" by March, it will reap huge dividends for Duke. I'm very, very excited at the progress Brian has made since returning from injury and for my and Duke's sake, I hope it continues...

This post closely approximates what I was getting at. Just to be crystal clear, I'm not advocating for Zoubek to play 25 to 30 minutes a game for the rest of this year either. I just want him and the rest of team to get as much "practice" as they can together in the next two games, so that they get just that much better performing together. I suspect one large benefit would be fewer miscues like the one between Brian and Scheyer.