Deron Washington / Seth Greenberg

[Clipsfan]

Sorry, I did and I can't. What I see is Demarcus slashing in a sideways slide that causes Washington to duck.

In the Singler play, the guy was clearly frustrated by the no-call that preceeded it. Many teams on the road in the ACC feel like that get jobbed. As fans, we are always losing it, right? Players shouldn't.

First, I disagree with your take on the undercut, as Washington sought out contact then undercut Nelson (IMHO).

Second, teams may feel that they get jobbed on the road...but VT was playing at home!

[Virginian]

You lose credibility when you say things that didn't happen. Washington never shoved Singler - his hands, arms, whatever, never even came close to Singler. Singler tripped over Washington's knees, or feet, and was on the floor at the top of key. While there is no doubt that Washington was way over-the-top as far as flopping, grabbing, faking fouls, being chippy, it amazes me that Duke fans find it so abhorrable. You do realize that it's exactly that type of play that characterizes Duke bball? Nelson is exactly that type of player with more bball skills and less athleticism.
Should Greenberg have pulled him aside and told him to calm down? Yes.
But to call either of them dirty means you are either upset that someone doesn't back down vs. the Duke legacy or you just aren't really paying attention. I thought it was a good, hard-fought game, physical on both sides. The best team won and I'm sure the Duke players aren't mad at anyone.

It amazes me that you would argue his hands "never even came close to Singler." For the referees called Washington for a foul for hitting Singler. Now perhaps they were wrong, but I looked at it again when I watched the game again on tape last night. Singler was running down the court and Washington was behind him. Washington threw out his arm and Singler went down and the whistle blew.

Now perhaps the arm did NOT hit Singler and maybe their feet DID get tangled but it doesn't look that way on the tape -- to me at least. And it certainly did not look that way to the refereee who was a few feet away. No one gets called for an intentional foul for getting his feet tangled with another player.So how do you say with such certainty that it never happened? I may be wrong and the ref may be wrong, but at the very least so could you.

And please note I did not make any comment about VT being "dirty" or say anything about Duke "legacy" or the other BS you're throwing into your response to my comments. I was only commenting on one play and in response to an earlier poster who argued that nothing Washington did could possibly have hurt anyoine. As for losing credibility, there is the only one person here who obviously has an axe to grind -- that's you.

[CDu]

It amazes me that you would argue his hands "never even came close to Singler." For the referees called Washington for a foul for hitting Singler. Now perhaps they were wrong, but I looked at it again when I watched the game again on tape last night. Singler was running down the court and Washington was behind him. Washington threw out his arm and Singler went down and the whistle blew.

This part is, I think, incorrect. Washington was in front of Singler and complaining to the refs about the no-call (which was a completely correct no-call). Singler is running to catch up to the play which is in front of him. The two players' legs tangle as Singler passes Washington and Singler starts to fall. Washington (who is running at an angle) stumbles behind Singler as he is passing (and falling). Washington's arms flail. He doesn't appear to make contact with the falling Singler.

What is unknown is whether he's flailing his arms (a) in disgust at the no-call, (b) as a result of losing his balance, or (c) in an attempt to hit Singler. I believe it is due to (b). But, that's certainly up for debate. The things that I'm fairly certain of are that Washington was in front of Singler before the fall, and that the fall was a result of tangling feet/legs as Singler passed Washington.

[Virginian]

This part is, I think, incorrect. Washington was in front of Singler and complaining to the refs about the no-call (which was a completely correct no-call). Singler is running to catch up to the play which is in front of him. The two players' legs tangle as Singler passes Washington and Singler starts to fall. Washington (who is running at an angle) stumbles behind Singler as he is passing (and falling). Washington's arms flail. He doesn't appear to make contact with the falling Singler.

What is unknown is whether he's flailing his arms (a) in disgust at the no-call, (b) as a result of losing his balance, or (c) in an attempt to hit Singler. I believe it is due to (b). But, that's certainly up for debate. The things that I'm fairly certain of are that Washington was in front of Singler before the fall, and that the fall was a result of tangling feet/legs as Singler passed Washington.

I have just reviewed the tape. At the point when Washington threw out his arm, Singler was already moving down court and was ahead of Washington. Yes, he had been behind Washington, but then started to run down the court while Washington sorta stood still and then threw out his arm(s) -- perhaps only in frustration. At that point, Singler was heading down court and was ahead of Washington. Suddenly Singler goes down hard. The ref blew his whistle and called Washington for a foul for causing Singler's fall.

It's hard if not impossible to say or know for sure if contact was made from that arm/hand (as opposed to foot entanglement) action, but the ref saw it as arm/hand contact, the two TV announcers (Elmore and Patrick) saw it as arm/hand contact -- Elmore, I think it was, suggested that Washington didn't MEAN to hit Singler, that he was just throwing his arms in a show of frustration over the previous play. David Teel, a Va. journalist of established credentials who is a HUGE VT partisan, was at the game and reported that Washington hit Singler.

Maybe all of them are wrong, but I don't think I'm crazy to take their input and my review (several times) of the tape and say that, intentional or not, it appears Washington hit Singler and caused him to fall, thus making the ref's call a reasonable one.

[CDu]

I have just reviewed the tape. At the point when Washington threw out his arm, Singler was already moving down court and was ahead of Washington. Yes, he had been behind Washington, but then started to run down the court while Washington sorta stood still and then threw out his arm(s) -- perhaps only in frustration. At that point, Singler was heading down court and was ahead of Washington. Suddenly Singler goes down hard. The ref blew his whistle and called Washington for a foul for causing Singler's fall.

It's hard if not impossible to say or know for sure if contact was made from that arm/hand (as opposed to foot entanglement) action, but the ref saw it as arm/hand contact, the two TV announcers (Elmore and Patrick) saw it as arm/hand contact -- Elmore, I think it was, suggested that Washington didn't MEAN to hit Singler, that he was just throwing his arms in a show of frustration over the previous play. David Teel, a Va. journalist of established credentials who is a HUGE VT partisan, was at the game and reported that Washington hit Singler.

Maybe all of them are wrong, but I don't think I'm crazy to take their input and my review (several times) of the tape and say that, intentional or not, it appears Washington hit Singler and caused him to fall, thus making the ref's call a reasonable one.

Yes, the swing of the arm definitely came when Singler had passed Washington. No disagreement there. What I do disagree with is that Singler fell because of the swing. Singler is already falling when the swing occurs (and Washington is stumbling). They tangle legs as Singler passes Washington.

As I said, the swing could have been for any of three reasons (including intent to hit Singler). But I do not believe that the fall was in any way caused by the swing of Washington's arm. For one, Singler is a big strong guy. The swing wasn't hard enough to knock him to the floor given that it's in the same direction he's already running. Singler went down because of a trip.

My disagreement with the previous post was not necessarily the intent (or lack thereof) of Washington's swing. It could very well be that Washington intended to swing at Singler. I really don't know for sure. My post was instead to point out that Washington didn't chase down Singler, and that Singler fell because of a trip, not the swing.

After further reviewing the tape, it definitely looks like the tripping is intentional. Washington definitely steps his right leg in front of Singler demonstratively as Singler runs up court, causing the trip. The swing may be intentional as well (harder to tell), but it wasn't the cause of the fall.

[_Gary]

I honestly think Washington is a master at trying to do chippy and dirty things but looking like it's all an accident. The tripping thing we are discussing is a perfect example. He argues with the refs and tries hard to make it look like any contact with Singler is accidental, but it clearly isn't. And he did that type of thing over and over and over. Each time he tries to make it look all innocent, when it clearly isn't. That's what I felt he did on the undercut to. He took the push in the back from Lance, and knowing he could exaggerate that and use it as a reason to get closer to Markie, jumped into Nelson. Then after the contact he acts like he has no idea what just happened. He's a sneaky, and dirty, player as far as I'm concerned.


Gary

[CDu]

I honestly think Washington is a master at trying to do chippy and dirty things but looking like it's all an accident. The tripping thing we are discussing is a perfect example. He argues with the refs and tries hard to make it look like any contact with Singler is accidental, but it clearly isn't. And he did that type of thing over and over and over. Each time he tries to make it look all innocent, when it clearly isn't. That's what I felt he did on the undercut to. He took the push in the back from Lance, and knowing he could exaggerate that and use it as a reason to get closer to Markie, jumped into Nelson. Then after the contact he acts like he has no idea what just happened. He's a sneaky, and dirty, player as far as I'm concerned.


Gary

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. I haven't liked him since he was flopping and showing off that slimy grin as a freshman. He hasn't gotten any more likable since.